In fact, I'm starting to eye the Xbox, and I fear I'll give in when The Two Towers is released.

Okay. That's a non sequitur to me. Explain.

And I'm definitely looking forward to true HD resolutions from the consoles.

I was under the impression that the XBox already did that. I keep meaning to borrow someone's XBox and hook it up to my HDTV to see, but that'd mean (1)buying the XBox's component video cable, and (2)getting up off my fat ass.

From what I understand, the Xbox doesn't do HD resolutions. It won't even play a DVD in progressive-scan mode.

Well, they sell the ``High Definition AV Pack'', which would imply that it does HD (and I could swear that I read that did, somewhere). But the manual for it never claims HD capability, only that you'd be hooking it up to your component inputs, which doesn't guarantee an HD signal.

The XBox dosen't do progressive DVD, but does do at least 480P for games (Some go as high as 1080i). Same with the GameCube.

Ah, so to them, "480p" with a 4:3 screen is high def. What a joke.

See, that wouldn't even work on my television, which locks into stretched anamorphic mode when it gets a progressive-scan signal (so everything would be wide and fat on my TV).

I found this: http://www.xboxcorp.com/faq.shtml:

Does the Xbox support HDTV?

Xbox was designed with high-definition TV support specifically in mind. Xbox supports HDTV and TV resolutions up to 1920x1080 with the purchase of the High Definition AV Pack. The High Definition AV Pack supports HDTV RGB video and your choice of RCA Audio or Digital Audio over optical cable.

Interesting. That's not what I'd read in the past. Has it changed?

/me considers getting an XBox... always wanted to play Halo.

That was pretty much what I remembered from its release date. (Although, as I implied before, I've never seen it, so I know nothing of the claim's veracity.)

/me considers getting an XBox... always wanted to play Halo.

Don't. Halo on the XBox is not worth it. It's so scaled back from what was hyped, it's unbeleavable. Wait for the PC version next year, Gearbox might redeem it a smidge, and at least give you proper controls.

And yes, XBox has been HDTV since day one. It varries by game on what it supports (the higher the resolution, the worse the preformance, same as the PC). 480p seems to be the minimum, but unfortunatly I can't find a comprehensive database somewhere listing every game and what it supports. After seeing my Dreamcast on VGA (480P basicially), the difference is amazing even at that low of a resolution.

Okay, but to me, 480p is not high-def.

By my definition, before you call it HDTV, it must:

- Be natively in a 16x9 screen aspect ratio. If it's wider or narrower than that, then the device must do the letterboxing/sideboxing itself since most high-def displays won't internally letterbox a raw component video input.

- Be 540p or higher.

480p at a 4:3 screen aspect ratio is (in my book) VGA, not HDTV.

Name some games that support a 16:9 screen at 540p, 720p, or 1080i, and we're starting to talk my language.

I haven't had any PC component remain very upgradable at all
for the past many years

That's odd -- my PC has been fully upgradeable since I bought it in 1992.

Of course, it has had four new motherboards, two new video cards, three new cases, half a dozen new hard drives, four new RAM sets, two new sound cards, five new CPUs, two CD-ROM drives, two new monitors, two tape drives... but it is still the same, original computer because I am still using the original floppy drive and keyboard.

It's like great-grandfather's ax -- still going strong, even though it's had two new ax-heads and five new handles...

tanstaafl.

"In regards to the Radeon 9700, I saw it was the official card used at QuakeCon..."

Yeah, that's right. They sposored the event. I'm not saying that they aren't good cards, but just because they bought the "official" title doesn't mean anything special.

Read Carmack's thoughts before you buy...

Yeah, that's right. They sposored the event. I'm not saying that they aren't good cards, but just because they bought the "official" title doesn't mean anything special.

No, but it does mean I got to personally see it, and was amazed. And trust me, my experience with it was more then seeing it in the booth. The 9700 will last for a long time to come, and thats my main reason for picking it up. Should last as long as my Voodoo 2 SLI setup ages ago.

I'm not buying it because they sponsered Quakecon. I'm buying it because I know it's a kick ass card. The fact that it ran in all the tournament machines flawlessly over the entire con dosen't hurt either :-)

If anyone is interested, Toms Hardware did a review of the Radeon 9700 Pro here.

My favorite quote: "In Quake 3, the Radeon 9700 is "only" twice as fast as the GeForce4 Ti."

Ok, so I need to buy a new video card for SURE now. Battlefield 1942 just plain won't run with a Voodoo 3 card, GTA 3 won't work, and Crazy Taxi won't either. Time to do it. So I looked at tht Radeon 9700 card, and it's more than I want to spend.

I want to buy a card that will run all these games well, but doesn't necessarily have to be the big boy on the block. I want a solid gaming video card that won't be quickly obsolete in a year or so, but will play all these games well enough...

Please give me names and model numbers... Is there a card that's a screaming good deal now that the newest stuff is the "card to have"?

- Thanx
- Jon

What DO you want to spend?
There are a ton of cards in several different price ranges, so you're better off setting a budget/price range before you even start looking at them. If you're looking for the best bang for the buck, you're probably going to end up spending around $100-150, which will get you a very decent card. Of course, as with everything computer related, no matter what you get, it will be obsolete as soon as you touch it....so, does it really matter?

Ok, let's say $150... What card is recommended in that price range...

BTW, running a PIII 1 ghz (Intel), 512 megs ram, etc. Not that it matters much. I'm assuming that AGP is recommended...

- Thanx
- Jon

In that case, I'd say something like a GeForce 3 Ti 500 w/ 64mb. Or you could go ATI and get a Radeon 8500 128MB (or spend just a few extra dollars and go with the AIW 8500DV version, which is probably overkill for your application). Nvidia or ATI? That's the question...(and a whole other topic that could go on forever) Strictly looking at the gaming side of things, I'd go with the GeForce 3 Ti 500 for that price range. In the end, it's all up to you.

Ok, thank you for your help. So I'm gonna go with the Radeon 8500...

There's an aweful lot of flavors out there, it seems. What's the 8500LE? Is that a lower end version?

Found this one on Pricewatch for 107.00 delivered...

New! New! ATI High-End Gamer graphic card, -Radeon 8500LE 128MB DDR, ORIGINAL ATI

Is that a good one? Sorry for so many questions, but I want to be sure and order the right thing...

- Thanx
- Jon

This is the one I'm considering...

http://www.enetshoponline.com/atirad8500le.html

or this one?

http://www.enetshoponline.com/atirad85o12d.html

Don't really know the difference...

Or should I just get the 9000 since they seem so cheap?

http://www.enetshoponline.com/atirad9012dd.html

- Jon

Yes, the 8500LE is a lower-end version of the 8500. I didn't even notice the 9000 being in that range, if you're going to go ATI, then that would probably be the better route. Of course, I don't follow ATI closely (I'm an nVidia guy), so you might want to get some other people's opinions. AFAIK though, the 9000 is a decent card, and you probably won't be disappointed.

I think the 9000 was released along with the 9700 specifically as a less expensive alternative to that very expensive card. Interesting, though, that they don't seem to be selling the 9700 in their own store at the moment.

Anyway, I'm going to wait until they have an AIW 9700 out, and then maybe attempt to work a Christmas present out of it I don't mind waiting. That will bring the price down, and I don't mind that nVidia's newer card will likely be out by then.

Hugo, if you're still reading this thread, any ideas when the AIW version of the 9700 will come out?

I can't be certain about the LE variant of the newer Radeon cards, but when the original Radeon range appeared, the Radeon LE was an OEM design intended for SE Asia only - it was basically the Retail 32MB DDR card, underclocked by about 10% and with the HyperZ disabled in order to further hurt 3D performance. (It was about half the price). ATI never intended for the LE to hit the US market, but apparantly the original Asian deal for these cards fell through and as a result they ended up being sold on the net, and consequently a lot of them ended up in the US. The fact that someone worked out how to flash them to restore the HyperZ buffer and to reclock them to retail speed meant that they were a good seller. The HTPC crowd liked them in particular because they didn't have the noisy fan on the chipset that the retail version had.

That being said - ATI got burned with that experience. The availability of $90 LE cards hurt sales of their retail cards in the US. They'd have to be really dumb to make that mistake again. But who knows?

In case you are wondering: HTPCers liked the Radeon chipset because of its 10 bit DACs that allow for video calibrations without losing any range or resolution - something that no other chipset had. I don't know whether this has changed in the past year though.

Go with the 8500 (non LE) if you can. It will last longer then a 9000, based on the preformance here: Anandtech 9000 Review

Keep in mind quite a few games coming out in the next year will be using the same engine as Unreal Tournament 2003, so it might be worthwile to hold off a bit, and let ATI introduce a better mid range card (rumored to be the 9500). The other alternative is to wait on NVidia to release their next gen card, bumping down the GeForce 4 line. Both will hopefully happen by years end.

Unless you are going high end with ATI right now, it's a horrible time to upgrade. The gaming engines are making a huge leap right now, and most cards today will not do well next year. (In games like Doom 3, Deus Ex 2, Unreal 2, and many others)

If all else fails and you need a cheep fix for gaming, look into the low end (sub $80ish) range and grab an origional Radeon or Geforce 3. They won't last long, but would hold you over until the video market reforms to fill all the markets again properly. And if you get a PCI version, you can always use it down the road for dual monitor support if you do use it as a stopgap solution.

With the introduction of the 9700, I would suspect tech and pricing pressure will move the entire nVidia product line downwards. So expect the gf 4 to come down significantly and the gf 2 and 3's to become pocket change.

Calvin

I don't think you need to wait for nvidia to come out with another high end card. ATI has a higher performance card in the same price bracket as the GF4, so they better lower the pricing to justify their existance now!

Calvin

Now that the prices of the 8500DV seem reasonable, I might just get one for capturing and the like. I have a few older AIW cards that are showing their age, and my other capture cards aren't all that great. For gaming though, I'm still sticking with NVidia. I guess I'm stubborn... for now. The reviews and specs of the 9700 look damn impressive, but it's only a matter of time before NVidia comes out with something better. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

Ok, you gotta jump in at some point...

Thank you Drakino for the help. I ordered the Chaintech Ti4200 64 meg card from NewEgg. The card and the DVI to VGA adaptor is 149.73 delivered...

Now I can finally play Battlefield 1942! (I hope!)

- Jon

Keep in mind that with that video card, your CPU is now going to be what slows things down. So don't shop for a new video card at the same time you look for a CPU upgrade down the road.

That is one big advantage NVidia has right now is all the different models they have released. With literially about 10 models to choose from, it was easy to find just the right one. Hopefully the 3rd party deals from ATI will result in similar success. That mid range gap right now is definitly something that needs to be filled.

Instead of starting a whole new post I decided to just ask for an update on this one.

My church is looking into purchasing a Dazzle Hollywood. David spoke well of it, but that was several months ago. Does anyone know of any vastly better products? The dazzle hollywood runs around $200 now. I'd like to stay around that figure.