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#114665 - 04/09/2002 05:22 Yet another GPS post
rcldesign
new poster

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 22
I was sitting around thinking of some solutions for the getting-usable-data for GPS purposes problem today. I seem to recall some discussion about how commercially available data (i.e. NavTech) would be way to expensive. Well, I went to their website. I said I had a Clarion navigational unit, and tried to order a "map update". Well, it came to $105 for CA and NV maps (the whole US is $250). Apparently, this data is in SDAL format - if you register as a developer, you can download the spec for free (which I also did). So, the only question I have is if these "map updates" contain the whole map data, or just a subset thereof. I would assume that they contain everything since (a) they are gigantic, (b) since areas are sold seperately, it looks like the system was designed to let users upgrade their coverage.

So, does anyone have any reason(s) that I may have missed that would make this seem like not a good solution?

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#114666 - 05/09/2002 00:13 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
spieler67
new poster

Registered: 13/05/2002
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
Hi

There are serval people that are interessted in the SDAL definition. Could you send this definition to me (or to us in this forum).

Thanks

Rolf
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#114667 - 05/09/2002 02:05 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: spieler67]
Derek
addict

Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
I would say the best idea would be if you signed up as a developer at the NavTech site yourself and downloaded it. I'm pretty certain that the licence agreement will say that rcldesign isn't allowed to disclose the format infromation to third parties. Otherwise they wouldn't have made him sign up to be able to download it would they!
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#114668 - 06/09/2002 12:59 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
This does look interested to say the least... I havn't gotten to far in reading the actual spec though. The part that concerns me is that the virtual-shrinkwrap agreegment says that all products using the "open" specification must be certified by The Powers That Be. What I havn't been able to tell is if the specification gives enough information to actually implement navigation, or if it requires some secret code to unlock that they only give you once you're certified.

Anyone who's done more work on this want to comment? It looks like the spec has been around for a while...

Matthew

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#114669 - 08/09/2002 23:00 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: matthew_k]
rcldesign
new poster

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 22
My interpritation of the spec is that technically, you can't develop anything that uses it or your work is infringing on their copyright. But, technically, I guess if we keep it REALLY low key, they might either miss us or ignore us. It might be a similar thing like the mp3 spec - Fraunhaufer (sp?) said that you could read the spec, but couldn't implement it without paying a fee... hence decoders are free, but encoders pay royalties (yet many encoders actually end up being free). So I'm sure that if we ignore this completely, and make all the stuff available for free on the internet, maybe we could scoot by the law without getting noticed.

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#114670 - 08/09/2002 23:24 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Yeah, that sounds about right from what I've read too. What I can't find is any open source programs that have implemented the spec at all as a proof of concept or anything. It seems like someone would have started doing this, but I guess not. I don't have a map CD and don't really want to pay $100 for it unless I know I'm going to get some use out of it.

Matthew

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#114671 - 09/09/2002 03:28 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
As I sidenote, BGMicro have those GPS modules in again. You will need to do some soldering though so it's not strictly plug-n-play

- Trevor

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#114672 - 10/09/2002 13:36 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
grgcombs
addict

Registered: 03/07/2001
Posts: 663
Loc: Dallas, TX
Then maybe we've got them in some false advertising crux ... From their website:
"
The differences between SDAL Format and other proposed solutions promising map media compatibility is that SDAL Format is already in use today by a growing number of systems and applications and is open and available to anyone to use – no strings attached.
"

[Edited Here]

Also:

Q: Is SDAL Format an open standard?

A: Yes. SDAL Physical Storage Format Specification is now publicly available for review. Interested parties can register online to request a copy. If manufacturers wish to implement the SDAL Format PSF Specification, they will be able to do so royalty-free.

Greg


Edited by grgcombs (10/09/2002 13:38)
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#114673 - 11/09/2002 08:28 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: grgcombs]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
You understand that the format is different from the data right? Just because you implemented the format doesn't give you access to the map data. It does however let you create your own map data.

Calvin

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#114674 - 11/09/2002 09:14 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
So this SDAL format is for overlays and things like that?

Makes sense I suppose, you don't want people extracting the actual map data itself. Bit annoying that nobody is feeling generous and allows their map data to be used freely...

- Trevor

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#114675 - 11/09/2002 09:39 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: tman]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
There is quite a number of formats out there. I was actively looking into all of this stuff before getting laid off. Autodesk for example, supports a mapping format. Many of the mapping formats are "open" in the sense that development is encouraged but in almost all cases the data itself is never to be redistributed. You *can* get map data for free from the government. For example, California State DOT will release data in various formats, and I believe you can get Tiger data for free as well. The problem is accuracy. The DOT map data looks like ass for everything except for the major highways for example. Companies like NavTech base their original maps on government data, supplement that with recent satellite data, then they employ hundreds to thousands of drivers carrying GPS units manually probing the nation's roads constantly in order to verify the data. This cost overhead is what you're paying for. If they give away the data for free they will go out of business and the quality goes way down.

Calvin

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#114676 - 11/09/2002 09:59 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
I've always wondered how they get the map data accurate enough for driving.

Actual paper maps here in the UK have tiny imperfections put into them deliberately so that you can prove ownership of the data if somebody ever copied it and made their own maps. I guess the GPS map CDs would have a similar sort of thing so they'd know if you ever stole their data and released it.

- Trevor

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#114677 - 11/09/2002 20:27 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: tman]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
There are really only two companies with accurate data. Navtech and Teleatlas. They both employ a lot of people driving out on the roads. The Navtech system sends out drivers in teams of 2. One drives and the other operates the laptop, designating roads that are closed, new roads, designating one way streets, private streets, etc. Through this technique I think they're able to cover nearly all the drivable streets in the major metropolitan areas. The non metros are left to government data and satellite maps and such.

The way the data is listed, is interesting, they have each interesting segment of road given in a vector type format that correlates closely with geographical coordinates. I'm sure that if you "stole" the data they can easily identify the origin of the map data by comparing segment/vectors. Since the segment vectors roughly correlate to actual physical drivers moving around the roads, no segments from two different companies will ever precisely match, is my guess. Also, NavTech and TeleAtlas does not cover the exact same geographical areas. They're expanding into other countries at different paces, so some data will be "blank" from one company and not "blank" in the other.

Calvin

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#114678 - 11/09/2002 21:18 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
In reply to:

You understand that the format is different from the data right? Just because you implemented the format doesn't give you access to the map data. It does however let you create your own map data.



I'm still trying to figure this out... If the format is open, I should be able to buy the CD, write a program to implement the spec, and then read the data off of the CD? I have no objection to buying a Navtech CD in SDAL format, as long as I can get the data off of it and theoretically into my empeg. Selling/Copying that data is still illegal... So, the question is, what do they mean by "open", and how open is it?

Matthew

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#114679 - 11/09/2002 22:12 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
Derek
addict

Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
Well I don't think anyone here really minds paying for the map data. What we don't want to pay is an exhorbitant amount for a licence that gives us access to the data format so that we can develop our own Nav software.
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#114680 - 11/09/2002 22:13 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: matthew_k]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
I believe it means you can write code to read the Navtech CD, provided you paid for it. You can create your own maps in the format, then read it back.

Remember, the Navtech data is per application, meaning, if it is licensed for Mapquest, or Yahoo Maps, or the Alpine navigation software, it can *not* be used for another piece of software. You have to license it from navtech per application. So if you wrote your code to understand the map format, you *still* need to fork over $75,000 for the data.

Calvin

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#114681 - 12/09/2002 07:06 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
grgcombs
addict

Registered: 03/07/2001
Posts: 663
Loc: Dallas, TX
I think I'm still lost here. So we have free access to the format, and are encouraged to develop software for it. Each person would buy their own respective CD's from NavTech. We'd presumably have some software to help each individual move this data from CD to their own personal Empeg.

At what point is licensing required? At the point that you distribute your application that supports their CDs? Are we sure that there is a licensing fee required in our case?

Greg
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#114682 - 12/09/2002 09:16 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
jaharkes
enthusiast

Registered: 20/08/2002
Posts: 340
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
There might be another possible alternative, if you want to drive a pre-planned route and don't really care about exact street level info or on-the-fly rerouting.

There is this website mapsonus.switchboard.com, if you go to the general options and select 'show latitude and longtitude', it adds an additional link at the bottom of a planned route page "Raw Route Description". That basically contains a well documented dump of the route information, both the turns with descriptions and the actual shape of the path that is drawn on the map.

All coordinates are in NAD27 and I've successfully converted them to tracks and routes for my garmin etrex venture gps, and they seemed to match the actual roads reasonably well.
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#114683 - 12/09/2002 18:23 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: grgcombs]
rcldesign
new poster

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 22
We can all say that we have Clarion AutoPCs in our cars, order our respective CDs, and copy the data to our empegs, provided someone developes an SDAL supported GPS program. If they want to get me for some licensing fee at that point, they can go ahead and try. Worst case scenario, I'll buy a Clarion AutoPC, get the S/N, etc, then return the thing. I owned one, and therefore had a legitimate reason to buy the data. I bought the data, "didn't like" the stereo, and returned it. There is NOTHING they can do about it. I will gladly GIVE someone some data to borrow while they implement this thing for the Empeg. Why are we all so worried about licensing and stuff? Who cares? I sure as hell don't.

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#114684 - 12/09/2002 21:08 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
grgcombs
addict

Registered: 03/07/2001
Posts: 663
Loc: Dallas, TX
Same here buddy. If some big fat rich a-hole at TeleStar or whatever wants to go after my tuition money, he can sure as hell try. In the mean time, I've got directions on my car stereo!!

Honestly I don't see them coming after such an insignificant group. Now if Alpine or Sony pulled this, you can bet they'd hear about it. I don't think they could pull a reverse class-action suit against us.

Greg
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#114685 - 13/09/2002 00:07 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
spieler67
new poster

Registered: 13/05/2002
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
Hi

In my mind I think the companies which sale navigation CD's like Blaupunkt (Germany), Clarion, VDO etc. should be interessted in sale this navigation CD's to everybody!!! I spoke with Siemens (owner of VDO) about this theme. If they would give the specification of the navigation CD format they would open a new market. Think about the following situation:

Normaly you buy a navigation system one time (with a new car or later). But you will buy many times a navigation CD with the newest road map informations. So this means: You invest one time $500 - $1500 for the navigation system and 3 - 5 time $100 for updating the navigation system. If the manufactors of navigation CD's would open the data format of the navi-CD's for public they would sales 3 - 5 time $100 for navi-CD's but many 1000 times because software on the market will be available for using this CD's.

Rolf
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Rolf Ackermann

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#114686 - 17/09/2002 23:24 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: spieler67]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
Where do you think the data on those navigation CDs come from? It comes from either Navtech or Teleatlas. That is why navigation equipment is so expensive, because of the licensing fees. Do you really think it costs $1000-$3000 just for the hardware? :-)

Calvin

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#114687 - 17/09/2002 23:32 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
rcldesign
new poster

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 22
Ok... I don't care anymore... someone grow some balls and implement to SDAL format... we'll all be happy then.

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#114688 - 18/09/2002 00:26 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Ok... I don't care anymore... someone grow some balls and implement to SDAL format... we'll all be happy then.

Let us know when you're done.

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#114689 - 18/09/2002 05:18 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: eternalsun]
spieler67
new poster

Registered: 13/05/2002
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
No, I don't think that the hardware is so expensive. But I believe that if the manufactors of navigation CD would open their format of the CD they would sell much more of the navigation informations.

Another aspect of this situation is: You can buy the navigation data (from Navtech or Teleatlas) to a fixed price (If I remember correctly it's about $10'000 to $20'000 dollars) and you will get the complete data with all navigation related informations (map, directions, POI etc.). All manufactors of navi CD's calculate this price with the numbers of CD's they plan to sell and that's the price of the navi CD's.

Think verse vica: Why can a software manufactor offer a navigation software for $70 including navigation informations for Palm, PSION? The reason is very easy: They pay $10'000 - $20'000 dollars for the informations and can sell this together with the software many thousand times!!!

Rolf
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Rolf Ackermann

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#114690 - 18/09/2002 10:54 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: Daria]
grgcombs
addict

Registered: 03/07/2001
Posts: 663
Loc: Dallas, TX
Now that's funny!

g
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#114691 - 18/09/2002 23:30 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: Daria]
rcldesign
new poster

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 22
Unfortunately, I don't have the know-how for the mapping stuff... *maybe* if I knew what I was doing, and knew how to interface the data to something like Kim's GPS software, then I'd do it. So how's this... someone gets me Kim's software, and tells me how the data needs to be presented to it, and I'll write up some sort of interface from the data to Kim's software. Otherwise, I'm waiting for someone with a little more insight to do it.

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#114692 - 20/09/2002 00:42 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
spieler67
new poster

Registered: 13/05/2002
Posts: 5
Loc: Switzerland
How has Kim's GPS Software. I'll be interessted too.

Rolf
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Rolf Ackermann

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#114693 - 28/09/2002 22:15 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: spieler67]
eternalsun
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
Won't argue with you there. I think the whole navigation monopoly sucks.

Calvin

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#114694 - 29/09/2002 06:15 Re: Yet another GPS post [Re: rcldesign]
Warp10
member

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 179
Loc: Germany
Does anyone know if Kim is still working on his gps software? I'm wondering why the rapturousness about this great project abated so quickly.
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