OK, my subject line is horseshit. I have *no* inside knowledge about what will appear at CES. (I wish I could go!!). To follow up the recent Phatbox thread, though, I had the urge to start a thread on a *mythical* Empeg Mark 4. This is not necessarily an expectation of a product that will appear anytime soon. Rather it is a meditation on what my *ideal* Empeg would be.

This ideal is not necessarily realistic. For one, a primary rule is that:

1) Cost is not a major design issue -- I assume that 17 zillion will be sold so that unit prices will come down under $1000 or $2000.

Another rule is that:

2) Software is assumed to be everything you want, more or less (well, hey, it was written by the Guys, wasn't it?). I don't spend a lot of time thinking about small feature additions -- that's the great part about implementing so much in software.

My ruminations were more on the hardware side and how things would be organized. OK, here goes:

- Storage: 2.5 inch laptop drives still the weapon of choice. Mk4 still has space for 2.
- The body of the unit can be installed in the trunk/boot. This "box" allows vertical or horizontal mounting, by virtue of a drive carrier that can be rotated 90 degrees (connector on the box can be rotated 90 degrees to accept drive carrier in either orientation).
- The drive carrier has a quick disconnect plug. This carrier is what you take into the house to synch -- either in a cradle al la Phatbox or in conjunction with another SB home product.
- The Box and drive carrier include some sort of magical anti-theft technology that allows user-defined passwords and is somehow (hey, I said it was magic!) not defeatable by a villain with an EEPROM programmer.
- All IO is integrated on the Box in the trunk. This includes front/rear/subwoofer line outs, ethernet and serial. I can't decide whether I want USB master or just more RS-232 (implemented as RJ-11/45)
- Connection from Box to display is "single wire" -- sort of -- and standards-based. I'm thinking 1394. 1394 also supplies power to the display. Not sure if this is realistic, but I'm dreaming, aren't I?
- Display?? Is VFD still the best technology? Remember, we can spend some $$$ here! What I'm thinking of is a DIN-sized display, but which is only as deep as the average removeable faceplate -- more mounting options, and removeable, too. What other features? IR, of course. An integrated microphone?
- OEM integration? Sure. How would it work, though?


Well, that's just my start. And I'm not holding my breath as money *does* matter. I am pretty happy in any event. My main goal with the Empeg was always for boat use, and I have the best thing of its kind in the Empeg, whether in boat, car or home. I'm just a fan of the "in-the-trunk" aspects of the P__Box.

well..... I am pretty happy with the software.... It would be the hardware i wanted to alter....
Maybe an Xscale CPU.... and more RAM.... But my FIRST and FOREMOST wish would be to make the display and front alot nicer!.... an 16K colour LCD touch screen....And a really cool metal finish around it.

- The body of the unit can be installed in the trunk/boot.

I'm an anti-fan of the trunk/boot imlpementation. That would be going backwards as far as I'm concerned. One of the great things about the empeg (That no one else seems to have understood) is the fact that the unit fits completely in a single din slot. And without any loss in functionality!! I'll never go back from that.

... an 16K colour LCD touch screen....

This is an area where I feel pretty ignorant WRT the tradeoffs of different display technologies. My Kenwood HU has a variable-color LCD display that is *much* more readable in daylight than the Empeg VFD, and it looks pretty good at night, but it doesn't look as nice at night as the Empeg, nor would it support Empeg-type visuals -- it has hard-wired LCD sections with particular display areas for track/channel, etc.

My Zaurus has a daylight-viewable LCD display, but it is not very bright. Would your color LCD display "do it all"? Support open-ended visuals and both day and night viewability? Is extra computing power (whether in "the Box" or the display) needed to display color (over current 4-color VFD output)?

nothing beats the Empeg VFD at night in a convertible.
you simply havent lived until you experience that.


That being said, I want the unit to talk more (which is a work in progress thanks to 3rd party efforts) , talking GPS, talking OBD, listening to commands (even if it doesnt work on the open road, the option is nice!)

I imagine scenarios where the empeg tells me, "You are exceeding 65 mph, please be careful", and then play some hot speeding tunes!"


I want more in-car effects and management of mp3s.

I'm an anti-fan of the trunk/boot imlpementation. That would be going backwards as far as I'm concerned.

I think I understand this view. In my case, without a secure garage, I don't use the Empeg in the car as much as I'd like. For sure on long trips, but when I make a trip to the store or a restaurant, I have the tendency to think ahead and just leave the Empeg behind rather than have to pull it out when I go into the store/restaurant. I'd vote for something that becomes invisible with less effort.

Another aspect for me is that the amount of space in the WRX behind the radio is extremely tight. It was *not* an easy install, so a "faceplate" type install has some appeal. Also, I'm thinking that putting the box/brains in the boot would shorten a lot of the critical interconnects and eliminate a lot of ground loop opportunities -- just one shielded 1394 cable running fore-aft.

nothing beats the Empeg VFD at night in a convertible. you simply havent lived until you experience that.

Heh, if the secret CES deal was with VW/Audi, they could redo the wonderful "Pink Moon" Cabriolet ad! Hmmmm. Doubt they have a booth at CES, though!

That being said, I want the unit to talk more (which is a work in progress thanks to 3rd party efforts) , talking GPS, talking OBD, listening to commands (even if it doesnt work on the open road, the option is nice!)

Interesting point. The player doesn't permit mixing of AUX input with player output at this point, right? So would you add a separate speaker output or modify some basics to create a mixer functionality?

I imagine scenarios where the empeg tells me, "You are exceeding 65 mph, please be careful", and then play some hot speeding tunes!"

Did a gravel rally up in BC last weekend and I joked to our group that I had a female friend record a 10-second WAV reminder that repeated (gently) "Drop...throttle...oversteer!!......." and that I could play on muddy, twisty sections. I didn't really, but I may next time!

I want more in-car effects and management of mp3s.

Don't you want to manage your MP3s indoors late on a rainy night?

I imagine scenarios where the empeg tells me, "You are exceeding 65 mph, please be careful", and then play some hot speeding tunes!"

Go on and write me up for 125
Post my face Wanted dead or alive
Take my license and all that jive I can't drive 55

hmm.... i just came to think of a really cool feature..... That we could implement into current empeg... To have a laser print the serial output onto the windscreen (Is that the word I am looking for? The front window in the car =) ) anybody know of any prebuilt controllable lasers out there? That would be really cool..... to read current song title and stuff in say the bottom corner of the window....

You're not going to believe this, but I was thinking of the same thing this morning on my way into work. WIth the work I've been doing to support text-to-speech, I've been thinking of other things that would make me look at my empeg display less, and a "heads up display" would be cool. The idea of playing the current artist/title via text-to-speech doesn't really sound too appealing, having it proejcted in a little area of the windshield would be much more ideal.

I know Kenwood has a heads-up display thing but I've never seen it in action. And it's limited in what it can display. It'd be a neat project for someone, though.

Thats a hot idea with the lazer display!


Dont forget bluetooth or even better 802.11b built in natively.
I wouldnt mind it just having a straight cellular connection with a subscription service


Another thing with OBD is that you could use the EMPEG to store all types of driving statisics as well.

Found this site with pictures of a "heads-up display" on an A4. Looks like even someone made one that takes serial input and could display enough characters, it wouldn't be very readable in the daytime.

hmm.... thats not exactly what I had in mind.... But its the same result though. As I understood it they used regular LED:s to project the image onto the screen.

If we were to use laser, I think the contrast would be improved alot! (Laser and moving mirrors to project simple ascii code) Perhaps using a darker tone on the windshield would additionally improve contrast.
Allthough I guess building a system based on laser and mirrors would be pretty complex and expensive. But it would be VERY cool to have it display current song in glowing "laser red" i the bottom om the windshield....

I know this is possible.... Have seen it done..... I think they even use lasers like this to highlight heat objects in front of the car... Saw a project who had installed a IR/heat sensor to find heat sources.... and then highlighting them on the windshield to the driver... Allthough... this is not availeble to buy yet... But the idea is REALLY cool!....=)

Why not both USB *and* more serial ports? You did say "ideal".

I'd like to see some of Noritake's multicolor VFD technology incorporated into the main display. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a double DIN empeg with a larger screen.

Of course, that brings up theft prevention -
the new empeg should have a metallic faceplate that is switched between Ground (normal operation) and a nice fat inductor coil that charges to... let's say 40KV as an example, when it's internal alarm is armed. When the alarm is triggered, it turns the empeg on and plays "Help! I'm being stolen" repetitively at ear-drum splitting levels, or alternatively plays 'I should be so lucky' by Kylie Minogue, at said levels, which should be enough to drive the would-be thief insane. The alarm is key-locked with a crypto iButton.

Oh, an integrated GPS, OBD, radar detector, and a CF or SDcard slot for live data logging would also be nice.

double din display is sexy, but I dont fancy carrying a pull out unit that big!

i dont really want to watch tv and dvd's in the car (i know im in a minority there)

No, I don't want DVD or TV in the car either. I'd like a decent screen for GPS though

More than half a year ago I also posted what would be the ultimate Empeg for me. Rob answered then that I would cost too much. I figure, since you're saying that cost isn't an issue when you're dreaming, I'll link to that post again. (here)

I still stand by everything I wrote then. Only thing I might add is GPS now. I also like the touch screen idea.

Heads up Display (HUD) also requires a special windshield. This type of dash display projects information such as vehicle speed, signal lights, and warning lights onto a special area of the windshield. To the driver, the projected display appears to float in the air outside the car, but it is actually just projected on the windshield. HUD allows the driver to monitor important vehicle information without having to take their eyes off the road. Early windshields built for HUD had a small transparent projection screen in the lower drivers side of the glass. The latest windshields look like regular windshields but the glass in the area of the projections has been tested for optical clarity. As can be expected, these windshields cost more than the standard unit.www.canadiandriver.com

Unless this overstates the need for a special windshield the laser may be required... It also seems that many of the HUD's currently manufactured are for aviation. Also isn't it true that a laser is either on or off? So the laser would be as bright at night as during the day with no real ability to dim.

Hmm... The ideal Empeg.

1. Output for an LCD touchscreen.
2. Input for a keyboard & pointer.
3. OBD car computer monitoring & control, performance reading like the G-Tech
4. GPS with full maps.
5. Cellular modem for going online and at the very least retrieving email.
6. AM/FM built in.
7. Another control mode for a trunk mounted satellite receiver.
8. More RAM
9. Stronger CPU
10. Wireless networking built in
11. Organic multicolor display
12. Outboard DVD-Rom for GPS & playing video also to rip cd's.
13. Ability to record from radio or external sources.
14. USB 2.0 Master
15. FireWire
16. Two above for hooking up devices such as an external memory card reader. (offloading pictures from camera, etc.)
17. transponder for radio locating
18. Digital output built in.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Empeg (even if it is only a Mark I). These things would make it perfect though.

Are you guys kidding if we had all of this stuff we would just come up with more ideas. Before you got an empeg how many of you just wanted to be able to have your entire music collection in your car. Remember ?

We're up to about a $4000 new empeg by now aren't we?

msaeger: Haha, true to that. I'll stick with my 1.03 and enjoy the simplicity of the complex little beast in my dash.

Sounds like you're asking for a general purpose cpu... How about this:

1: Emebeded system board with good expansion and sound capabilities. They pretty much exist off the shelf right now for about $300. The only problem is most of them don't have very good sound on them.. but some do.
2: Dash display module (vfd, oled, whatever) with buttons and ir/bluetooth reciever. (both are dirt cheap)
3: Emplode style software with open api for adding things like obd/gps/etc/etc.
4: A nice chasis for trunk mounting and holding expanion modules like dvd/gps reciever/802.11/etc/etc.
5: A smart way to get stuff on to it (hard drive module with home docking sled? I dunno)

So I guess, a computer with a good remote display, chasis, and software. You could probobly build the unit for less than $600 with no storage or add ons.

In reply to:

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Are you guys kidding if we had all of this stuff we would just come up with more ideas. Before you got an empeg how many of you just wanted to be able to have your entire music collection in your car. Remember

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The reason why I bought a Empeg was that I knew that getting my music collection in my car would be just the start - and thats why I wanted to buy a platform that was open and extendable - the Empeg fitted the bill admireably nearly 4 years ago now [in Jan 2003 it will be about 4 years old as a concept - Mk2 is less than that]. I am sure that it will still be usable in 4 more years - long after most head units have gone to the rubbish tip.

I knew that I would want more stuff - like GPS and HUD options - its amazing how little progress has been made with in-vehicle HUD's in the intervening interval.

But I see that Symbol has a cool LASER device that should do HUD's on any surface in 640 x 480 "vga", including moving images - in a small package.
Unfortunately its not a released product yet, but it should be next year.

I'd like something like that, coupled with FLIR (Forward looking Infra-Red) cameras so that at night, I can see the road as a "IR" image projected in realtime on the same road image I can see normally - this would give me the best of both worlds.

Would also make for great Prolux visuals projected onto any surface from 5 inches to whatever distance from your Empeg - now that would be so cool.

Obviously, the solution to most of these features is a completely modular player. For example, with the display, people who want a DIN sized player can get something similar to the current VFD display, or people who want a double DIN GPS touch display can get that, both of which interface with a common unit.

Then, SonicBlue could release a SDK for developers who wish to develop hardware or software to interface with the unit.

of course...I suppose then all you have is a glorified embedded PC...oh well.

My BMW makes angry beeping noises when you exceed a pre-set speed limit... I guess that's not the same though....

As far as I am concerned I would only "fix" two (maybe three) things:

1. Make the system upgradeable via usb/ethernet,
I recently really had trouble finding a PC with a serial port.

2. Connect the ethernet port to the cage-connector.

3. (Maybe) Make the RAM upgradeable or put in more.

I wouldn't even change the facia....

In reply to:

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Display?? Is VFD still the best technology?

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Seems as if OEL displays are getting to be the "norm" - they are certainly bright and pretty sharp. I reckon they need a few years to perfect though - the gaps between pixels are quite large which might make it unsuitable for GUIs. Also no full colour ones yet, but it looks like they are destined to replace LCDs.

Gareth

When the alarm is triggered, it turns the empeg on and plays "Help! I'm being stolen" repetitively at ear-drum splitting levels, or alternatively plays 'I should be so lucky' by Kylie Minogue, at said levels, which should be enough to drive the would-be thief insane.

I love it. But does it only play "I'm being stolen" until it is pulled from the sled?

The alarm is key-locked with a crytpo iButton

The iButton seems like the trick. What's the range on the readers, though (and the power consumption)? Would having an iButton on your key ring (in the ignition) be close enough to activate through a sensor in the display module?

Oh, an integrated GPS, OBD, radar detector, and a CF or SDcard slot for live data logging would also be nice.

Everybody gets to take a whack at their own fantasy/ideal. I'm not sure mine would extend to integrating every possible function into a single box (like GPS or Radar detector). My ideal wouldn't have those but would emphasize interfaces and modularity -- make it easy to add them (I didn't want to burden the Guys with with recreating a V1!)

I *dooo* like the CF slot!

I still stand by everything I wrote then. Only thing I might add is GPS now.

I'll agree with your list, but I don't want GPS integrated completely. I mean, what the heck would I do with all those SVee6s????

I also like the touch screen idea.

I don't think I want to sacrifice space for a 2-DIN touch screen (but since this is so modular you can have one!). I think I want that HUD everyone is dreaming about coupled with a super-low-profile wired remote that sits on the back of my steering wheel where the Kenwood 700 remote is now and mimics the existing Empeg menu navigation buttons...

I have seen HUD speedos and gauges, but they were pretty cheesy affairs that relied on user-applied films. I'll be interested to see what the Symbol laser tech is like.