Well, I meant that any criteria for qualifying good-ness is subjective in this case. In most debates, the conclusion is subjective, but the argument itself consists of objective facts (with potentially varying degrees of truth).

I Will Survive (Cake's version is terrible, the original is so much worse)

How about this version (BTW, I don't remember where I originally found out about it - here?)

Yes, but its not better than Monty Python's Universe song! Factual, catchy and has a tune! But back to the bad ones...

Disclaimer: I actually have country music on my Empeg, but it's because my wife likes country music . . . really!

Yes, but its not better than Monty Python's Universe song! Factual, catchy and has a tune! But back to the bad ones...

I have Clint Black covering the "Universe Song" on my Empeg, complete with an intro he did with Eric Idle. I think it's a really great cover, though not necessarily better than the origional.

Nothing wrong with Shania Twain! But I draw the line at line-dancing.

Hotel California is one of the greatest songs of all time

I don't care for it myself, but what makes me mad about it is that it always gets listed (presumably by people who like it) as one of the greatest rock songs of all time. I simply don't consider it a rock tune.

Sorry in advance for this rant:

I don't have anything to debate, as it's obviously subjective.

While liking the way a song makes a person feel may be the only criteria some need, it is not the only way it can be judged. It’s a given that most pop music really has little else to offer, but other forms (especially classical) have many other criteria that can be applied that are not nearly as subjective as the way a song “feels”. I suppose this case can be made for all art forms, but I think musical is far more mathematical in nature than most art, and therefore is more accessible to less-subjective standards.

As an example, while many listen to classical music and only observe it by the way the instruments and melody sound, most of the time there is a lot more going on. If you’ve studied the different forms (i.e. sonata) you’ll find that the composer is generally following some well defined (and mathematical) “rules”, and doing it rather well (or the music wouldn’t still be around). The really best composers (like Bach) can sometimes really twist the “rules” to the extreme, but if you look at the music you’ll eventually see how it all makes sense.

While this all might seem academic, it really isn’t. One’s appreciation for music skyrockets when these “rules” are understood. Instead of sitting at a symphony thinking “that was a nice melody, but let’s get on to something more interesting” you find yourself with thoughts more like “hmmm, I wonder what the composer’s going to do now . . . Oh, I see, but . . . OK that was different. I sure would like to hear it again. I like the way he brought the main them back into the recapitulation but this time in the lower voices.”

Certainly there is still a subjective element here, but it is not pure subjective reasoning. Of course this is just one medium, and there are a whole different set of “rules” for pop music than there are for classical (The dastardly crime of “parallel fifths” in classical would write off half the rock songs I know). Still, it is difficult to find pop music that really is even remotely intelligent from a form standpoint, thus leaving the listener with only pure-subjective criteria for determining whether a song is “good” or not.

To bring it back around, “Hotel California” has more going on than just a subjective listening would tell you. The chord progression alone is fairly complicated from a musical standpoint.

I don't care for it myself, but what makes me mad about it is that it always gets listed (presumably by people who like it) as one of the greatest rock songs of all time. I simply don't consider it a rock tune.

While I am well aware that debating musical styles, genres, tones, etc. is a slippery slope, I find it hard to understand how Hotel California could be considered anything other than rock. What else would you call it? Country? Blues? Gospel?

Rock ballad.

Rock ballad.

Okay, so getting back to Dignan's assertion, let's make sure that any "500 best rock songs ever" list includes no ballads. No "Let it Be," no "Black", no "Hey You"...

What else would you call it? Country?

Yeah, I'm sure that's what he was thinking. The Eagles straddled the Country and Rock genres. Most of that album is more country than rock. I happen to think HC falls under Rock more than Country.

Regarding the earlier comments on the song form itself: I agree that the chord progression is more complicated than most rock tunes. It does an interesting dance with keys and resolutions that makes it particularly cool. It also breaks out of the standard rock song format by placing the guitar solo at the end of the song instead of before the second chorus, making it a great climactic moment. And the guitar solo itself is revered by many guitarists as being one of the most interesting and melodic examples in the history of rock. The trade-off between the two guitars exchanging the riffs and then harmonizing is just fantastic. The lyric is wonderful because of the subject matter and the metaphors. (Not everyone knows the song was about Hollywood and the music business in the 70's.)

Darn, now I've done it... and I didn't even start a new thread...

Not everyone knows the song was about Hollywood and the music business in the 70's.

I didn't, I'd always heard they never said what it was about (though people in the circles I run in have said it was obviously about the devil worship, like the situation in the song is a favorable one). However, being about the music business seems to make perfect sense now that you've said it. The stuff you learn on this bbs!

Darn, now I've done it... and I didn't even start a new thread...

Nope, I did. I almost put my comments in a separate thread, but I couldn't figure out how to subject line it.

I'd always heard they never said what it was about

Musicians tend to dislike talking about the meaning of their own songs, preferring the listener to make their own interpretation. It's part of all art: The viewer/listener adds themselves to the experience, making it more than just what the artist created. But for what it's worth, "Hollywood in the 70's" was a specific quote I read from Henley himself (long after working it out on my own).

Oh, and there's a more recent one Henley did about Hollywood in the 90's, called "Garden of Allah". Love that one. Always considered it a sequel.

Okay, well, I just don't lump it in with what I consider the "rock" genre. Not that particular song, at least. I tend to seperate sounds like "country-rock" and just plain "rock" as being different genres.

Plus, I have a hard time saying "Hey, man 'Hotel California' ROCKS!" [add devil-horn hands and stuck-out tongue]

Guess I'm just not an Eagles fan

Besides, I agree with Bitt. "Best Songs Ever" would be a subjective list no matter how or who made it, because chances are they would all be different. My favorite song of all time probably wouldn't even be on any of your lists at all.

any good songs from Def Leppard?
mmmmmmm, no.

Rocket. Ye-ah. Satellite of Luurv. OOoo.

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!!!!

I check my email the other day... lots of mention of Ice Ice Baby in the Off Topic Digest. Cool. I have since heard it three times on MuchMusic. Now I also have the lyrics looking me in the face! ARRRRGGGHHHHH! Please make it stop!!!

Ahh David Hasselhoff.... Warning: Swallow the beverage of your choice before clicking.

Ahh David Hasselhoff.... Warning: Swallow the beverage of your choice before clicking.

Thank you, that was hilarious.

Plus, I have a hard time saying "Hey, man 'Hotel California' ROCKS!" [add devil-horn hands and stuck-out tongue]

I have a great musician joke that only works visually because it requires you do the devil-horn-hands thing. So it won't "work" here in print. But I'll print it here and then the next time you tell it "in person" you'll get a good laugh:

Q: How many death-metal guitarists does it take to put in a light bulb?

A: None, because DARKNESS RULES!!!! [do the devil-horn hands on the last bit and make sure to say it like a teenage metal fan would say it.]

"Reverend Horton Heat does a better Fulsom Prison Blues than Johnny Cash"

BLASPHEMER!

I love the Reverend Horton, but I cannot agree his version of Folsom Prison is better than The Man in Black's.

Homer Simpson singing "We Built this City..." is almost physically tolerable.

I've been called that before over this very issue, but I'm nothing if not stubborn. I love Johnny Cash. So much so that I'm comfortable saying that I like the Rev's version better.

After hearing the Reverend, I have to say that Johnny Cash's Fulsom is too dry, not enough soul I think.

Greg

On the topic of good covers:

John Mayer covered "Kid A" very well. I would say it's very, very close to the goodness of the original, which elevates John Mayer in my view.

Ahmet and Dweezil Zappa covered "Baby One More Time" by Britney Spears. Needless to say, the Zappa's version is cooler (now if they could have worked in Moon Unit in there, that would be a hat trick)

I like Alien Ant Farm's cover of "Smooth Criminal" better than Jacko's.

Every song that Nirvana covered in their Unplugged set, especially the Meat Puppet's stuff.

I can't decide of Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt is better than Trent's. Very, very heart-wrenching, that one. Why is it that he can sing about things he's never experianced and make it sound so beliveable?

Other covers that are better than the original:
Joey Ramone's - "What a Wonderful World".
Mike Ness - "I Fought The Law"
Fiona Apple - "Across the Universe"
Dixie Chicks - "Home"
Matthew Sweet - Scooby Doo Theme
Rage Against The Machine - "How I Could Just Kill A Man"
Violent Femmes - "Do You Really Want To Hurt Me"
Presidents of the United States Of America - "Kick Out The Jams"

Well, that should do it for now.

Ahmet and Dweezil Zappa covered "Baby One More Time" by Britney Spears. Needless to say, the Zappa's version is cooler (now if they could have worked in Moon Unit in there, that would be a hat trick)

I didn't even know that was a Spears song until one of the girls I work with gave me crap for not knowing that. I never head it until I heard the cover by Second Floor Daycare. I must be sheltered or something

Every song that Nirvana covered in their Unplugged set, especially the Meat Puppet's stuff

Agreed. I have the albums those Meat Puppets songs are on, and I have the Vaselines' album, and the Nirvana covers are all better than the originals.

"After hearing the Reverend, I have to say that Johnny Cash's Fulsom is too dry, not enough soul I think.

Maybe we're talking about a different song. I'm refering to FOlsom Prison Blues...

Anyway... I bought the "Holy Roller CD" just for the Rev's version of that and the one other new song. I already had everything else he had recorded. You must be talking about a different recording? Live perhaps? I was honestly quite disappointed with the Reverend's version... To me it had a sort of "phoned-in" quality. Please say it's another recording?

To add to the conversation at hand... Some covers that I find to be at least equal to the originals...

Will Oldham -- "Here Today, Gone Tomorrow"
Johnny Cash -- "I See a Darkness"
Parliament -- "Testify"
Les Claypool -- "Awakenings"
Primus -- "Intruder"
Tom Waits ---"Rain on Me":

I vote with Greg. I also love Mr. Cash, but the Rev's got him beat on this tune.

That being said, Cash's version of 'Reach out and Touch Faith' (Depeche Mode) is deliciously wry. Fantastic.

-Zeke

Cash's version of 'Reach out and Touch Faith' (Depeche Mode)

I believe the correct song title is "Personal Jesus". One of my faves. I didn't realize Cash had covered it, I'll have to look that one up.

You know, I agonized over that for a minute, but everyone I asked in my office had no idea. Either too old or too young. I figured I'd be corrected if I got it wrong!
If you were to look at <a href="ftp://castlegreenwald.dyndns" target="_blank">ftp://castlegreenwald.dyndns</a> dot org
you'd probably find it under /music/general/jkl/johnny cash - Personal Jesus.mp3

-Zeke

That tune is from American IV: The Man Comes Around.

Cash has been doing a lot of covers in the past decade with Rick Rubin. They are all pretty good, but different enough to not be able to call them "better", like Rusty Cage (by Soundgarden) and One (U2). On the IV album, he also covers Desparado (Eagles), I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry (Hank Williams), Bridge Over Troubled Water, and In My Life (Beatles).