#160600 - 09/05/2003 06:31
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Were we living in a country of vigilante justice where the punishment for burglary was death, then Martin should not have been convicted. Thankfully we don't live in such a country. People who are driven to attempted murder in response to such provocation are certainly victims in many senses, but that doesn't make it OK for them to start executing kids - not even antisocial ones.
As for legal aid, the whole point of the system is to make the legal system accessible to those who cannot otherwise afford it. Martin can also claim legal aid for his representation if he meets the criteria. The legal aid system absolutely must not take into account innocence or guilt, because those things have not been established until AFTER the process for which the aid is required.
Rob
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#160601 - 09/05/2003 06:44
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Interesting.
One thing that stuck out to me from reading that is that he had "an illegally-held pump-action shotgun". I hadn't thought about hunters in England before. When is it legal to own a shotgun or a rifle? I mean, you guys have to get out and kill your foxes, right? Or do the hounds just tear them apart enough that you don't need to waste a bullet?
(Sorry for the baiting. I just find fox hunting particularly gruesome. The real question is legitimate.)
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Bitt Faulk
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#160602 - 09/05/2003 06:52
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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What I have issue with is the prison system. Martin is refused early release because he refuses to show remorse and doesn't say sorry. He's being honest. On the other hand, the guy he shot was on parole at the time, and is now back in for drug offences and has a stream of previous convictions, as did his partner in crime. So Martin is still in prison because he hasn't said "ok, I'm so sorry. I'll be good".
In that report it states that he's not being released as "he'd be a threat to other burgulars". Well I hope he is a threat to them.
If someone were to burgle your house, and your in at the time, you would arm yourself with something. In self defence you may well strike out - be it with a gun, knife or golf club, it makes no difference. If you injure or kill the burgular then tough for them. They give up their rights when they walk into your home. Martin didn't go out and look for trouble. It came to him and he reacted. Good for him I say.
Rant over
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#160603 - 09/05/2003 07:00
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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AFAIK, you can legally hold a shotgun as long as you are licensed and vetted by the police, and you must have a good reason. All hand guns are banned here, but farmers etc can own a shotgun for vermin etc. Martin's license was revoked as he fired on a car previously!
Fox hunters don't have guns - they just let the hounds rip their necks off. Nice and humane that way (!)
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#160604 - 09/05/2003 07:09
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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Not to start a country/city sensibility battle here, but.....
If fox hunting is bad, what about any hunting in the US or even worse, bow hunting.
A bullet is only an instant kill in hollywood. An arrow is even less.
How many hunters out there are skilled enough for an instant kill? Not that many.
How many deer or javalina die a slow death from blood loss, especially from bow hunters.
Also, how does any predator kill its prey? Not by talking it do death, thats for sure 
The real core of this debate is that any form of hunting is always frowned upon by the city folk who think that the beef burger was never a real living animal, and can even less likely think about the whole process of just how that chicken, ribeye or pork chop got to their plate.
Whereas the country folk are the ones raising the cattle/chickens/pigs etc. They have a totally differant view of what is happening.
I am not a veggie, I just accept all aspects of killing other animals for food etc. Millions of cows/chickens/pigs die every year to feed us, no amount of glossing over the speed/painless or humane methods used can hide what happens.
A visit to a slaughter house will rid anyone of any thoughts that the animals there a treated with respect. They are all walking meat and burgers. The cows are TERRIFIED and trembling in fear before they are 'humanely' killed then chopped up and served in Burgerking the following week.
Thats life (ours, not theirs)
_________________________
==========================
the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#160605 - 09/05/2003 07:13
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: ashmoore]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Yes, but fox hunting isn't killing for food. Its just plain barbaric. Lots of poncy lords and ladies dressed up on horses - pathetic.
The excuse is that "the fox population must bge controlled". I don't think so.
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#160606 - 09/05/2003 07:19
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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So he's previously fired upon a car.
He was in possession of an illegal weapon.
He then shot a burglar with said weapon.
He refuses to acknowledge that he was wrong to do so.
And you're wondering why he's in prison?
1) In the UK is is not legal to shoot a burglar. You can debate whether it should be until the cows come home, but the law remains.
2) He doesn't appear to have any regard for UK firearm laws. 3 firearm offences that I can see.
3) He doesn't appear to understand that he is in the wrong.
And you think he should be on the streets?
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#160607 - 09/05/2003 07:24
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Martin is refused early release because he refuses to show remorse and doesn't say sorry. That seems reasonable to me. I don't know a lot (anything, really) about the British parole system, but, to me, the key word is ``early''. If he doesn't have any qualms about having shot the guy, then why should he get out early. I don't know what the official stance on incarceration is in the UK (or if there is one), but it seems that at least one of its functions should be to try to prevent the crime from happening again. If he has no interest in avoiding it, then why should he be let out early?
Somehow I imagine that the burglar started running away as soon as he heard that shotgun being pumped and that there was no real need to shoot the guy, but that's starting to question the sentence, which, as you say, isn't the issue.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#160608 - 09/05/2003 07:25
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: genixia]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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The fact that he had a gun is neither here nor there. He could have killed him with an icecream scoop, what difference does that make?
He defended himself and his property. He'd been robbed many many times before and the Police were sod-all help. He was at the end of his tether and desperate. When faced with a scary situation, he responded.
He has shown regret that the situation arose, but not that he killed him. Quite right, see above.
Your points...
1) True. But it was not murder, and he should be paroled by now. The only reason he's not been paroled is because he hasn't said sorry. Why should that be?
2) See above, it makes no difference
3) He may have been wrong to kill him, but he should not be in prison now.
Yes, he should be on the streets.
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#160609 - 09/05/2003 07:28
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Tony Martin is not a threat to anyone. Thats been widely accepted. The Police have stated that they can't guarantee his safety from a few people and thats the reason they won't recommend his release. It stinks.
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#160610 - 09/05/2003 07:30
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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He shot at a burglar (who may have had something coming), and, by your admission, he shot at a car. It sounds like he is a threat.
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Bitt Faulk
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#160611 - 09/05/2003 07:31
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Sorry, I just don’t buy the “vigilante justice” argument. Taking the law into your own hands because the police aren’t available is different than willfully skirting the law in order to see your own brand of justice done. From what I can see this man didn’t hunt down these people and seek revenge: he tried to stop them at gunpoint from burglarizing his house.
From the original article: “The parole board, however, has so far refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse and would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars.” Not if the burglars stop burglarizing. I simply don’t understand why this guy should feel sorry for trying to defend his property. Yes someone got killed, and that’s bound to happen when guns are in the mix. One solution is to ban the use of guns and peoples rights to defend themselves; another is to stop burglars. I’d opt for trying to stop burglars, and if a few get shot trying to steal things they haven’t earned from those who have, then I think we have to chalk that up to a necessary evil (My Texas roots showing up here).
Also from the original article: "We don't have a death sentence for burglary in this country and we don't want one either." Guns will always be in play, even if they aren’t in the hands of the common man: There is no law that is not enforced at some point by a gun. That doesn’t mean that every law carries a death sentence if broken, but when you resist hard enough eventually you will get shot.
Of course I don't live in England, so I really can't debate the law on this issue. I'm just stating my personal beliefs.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#160612 - 09/05/2003 07:36
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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he tried to stop them at gunpoint from burglarizing his house According to one of the articles, he shot them in the back as they were trying to escape. He'd already stopped them burglarizing his house. Shooting them was a punishment. He'd have gotten jail time in the US, most likely.
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Bitt Faulk
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#160613 - 09/05/2003 07:50
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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The fact that he had a gun is neither here nor there. He could have killed him with an icecream scoop, what difference does that make?
Quite a big one. He shot a 16 year old kid in the back and killed him. Had he thrown an ice cream scoop at him, the kid would still be alive now, and Martin wouldn't be in gaol.
He defended himself and his property. He'd been robbed many many times before and the Police were sod-all help. He was at the end of his tether and desperate. When faced with a scary situation, he responded.
He shot burglars in the back as they were running away. At that point it should be obvious that his life and his property are no longer under immediate threat. It is irrelevant how many times he had been burgled in the past - or how much use the Police had been in the past. He had already scared them off before he shot them.
He has shown regret that the situation arose, but not that he killed him. Quite right, see above.
He killed a 16 year old kid. Ok, that kid didn't appear to be a particularly nice kid. But he was still a kid. Somebody's son. Shot in the back.
So this guy regrets that the situation arose but not that he killed a 16 year old kid by shooting him in the back? I think he's regretting the wrong bit.
Your points...
1) True. But it was not murder, and he should be paroled by now. The only reason he's not been paroled is because he hasn't said sorry. Why should that be?
As Bitt mentioned above, parole is for *early* release, that has to be earned. His sentence was already reduced from life to 5 years because it was determined that manslaughter was the more appropriate charge.
2) See above, it makes no difference
Of course it does. You cannot choose which laws to follow. Oh, I like this one, no problem. Hmm, I don't like this gun law thing, I'd better ignore that.
3) He may have been wrong to kill him, but he should not be in prison now.
Yes, he should be on the streets.
Well, I'm not about to suggest that I'm in a better position to decide that by reading the news online than the judges who get to review *all* the evidence. If you do the crime, be prepared to do the time.
Yes, I'm sympathetic to his burglary problems. And I could understand that the heat of the moment got to him and that he shot the kid (even in the back) out of fear. But he doesn't even appear to care, and that is worrying.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#160614 - 09/05/2003 07:55
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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Sorry Phillip, but you are 'cityfolk' right?
The line always seems to be drawn right along the city limits.
Ever been to a hunt?
The whole villiage gets involved, those with horses ride as well. The poncy lords and ladies own the land but the vast majority of the riders are regular folk.
Folk such as the very nice lady whose parents ran a sheep farm. And every year she would take time off to go help with lambing season. This was in Glasgow a few years back when I worked there.
One year she came in with news of how the lambing was going and told us of one poor little lamb whose mother rejected it. So they had to feed it and nurture it for four months or so.
Of of her coworkers ooh-ed and ahh-ed "how nice', "how cute" only to be told the lamb was worth more after it was fattened up for sale rather than letting die naturally.
It was likely in a supermarket cold store the following week.
The point is, country folk understand the way this works and embrace it, along with all of the other stuff like personal hunting etc that goes with country life.
They see the hard side of life, its called death and death is not (to outsiders) pleasant or humane.
City folk cannot accept this and refuse to even think about its consquences. All the while thinking they are living the 'civilized' life.
Instead they wander blithley through the supermarket shelves brushing aside the blood, gore and dismemberment that has gone on in their name.
_________________________
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the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#160615 - 09/05/2003 07:55
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Sorry for the baiting. I just find fox hunting particularly gruesome.
..in common with most people in the UK. Blood sports are getting banned, slowly but surely.
Rob
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#160616 - 09/05/2003 07:56
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: genixia]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Thats why I love this BBS... a sensible discussion for once.
Martin did not deserve to escape a conviction, but jail is not the answer for him, and it never was. Don't you get annoyed when really evil characters walk free all the time because they say the right things. Martin broke the law, thats not in dispute, but the way the case has been handled seems to show him being made an example of for some reason. My original point was that the prison system needs to change - radically, and I still stand by that.
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#160617 - 09/05/2003 07:58
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You cannot choose which laws to follow. Oh, I like this one, no problem. Hmm, I don't like this gun law thing, I'd better ignore that. I actually have a problem with this line of reasoning. Rebelling against unjust laws, I think, is important to a free society, and the general acceptance of them that is currently going on in the US bothers me quite a bit. And I could understand that the heat of the moment got to him and that he shot the kid (even in the back) out of fear. But he doesn't even appear to care, and that is worrying. We have a winner! The fact that he's apparently unremorseful about killing a human being, I think, indicates tendencies towards sociopathy. I mean, if I could go back to 1939 and kill Hitler, I'd probably do it, but I'd still have qualms about killing someone -- anyone -- and I think that that's a part of humanity.
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Bitt Faulk
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#160618 - 09/05/2003 08:02
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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The fact that he's apparently unremorseful about killing a human being, I think, indicates tendencies towards sociopathy. I mean, if I could go back to 1939 and kill Hitler, I'd probably do it, but I'd still have qualms about killing someone -- anyone -- and I think that that's a part of humanity. Excellent point, Bitt.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#160619 - 09/05/2003 08:03
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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"he'd be a threat to other burgulars".
If burglars felt no threat breaking into houses chaos would run rapid. The threat of a short prison stay does not adequately deter crime. The threat of an instant shotgun blast is a much better deterrent.
Hopefully burglars feel threatened to enter my house, they should. Like the old saying goes. “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.“
I’m sure this fellow still feels that way. He had no idea what if the burglar was only a burglar or a killer too. Along with that I am sure he was terrified.
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#160620 - 09/05/2003 08:05
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: ashmoore]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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I have no problems with eating chickens, pigs, cows and I know fine well how they are killed, but I ain't giving up my bacon roll because of it.
But fox hunting IS different. It serves no real purpose at all. Do you support bull fighting?
This Country vs City argument always seems to go down the route of "well you don't live here, so you don't understand". Well I may not have been to a hunt, but even I can figure out that a group of people on horses and a group of hounds chasing a fox to death will not come anywhere close to solving the problems of them eating the lambs and chickens.
If foxes are a problem, then deal with them properly and shoot them, but don't pretend that chasing them across the countryside while dressed up is making any difference.
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#160621 - 09/05/2003 08:12
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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Sad but true.
Even though guns are more prevallent here, shooting someone in the back as they run away cannot be called defense.
I sympathize with his prediciment, but killing someone and expecting to get away with it doesn't cut it.
To take Genixias icecream scoop, it is not highly likely that he could have killed someone with his icecream scoop while they were running away, and if he did succeed in killing his burgler with the scoop it would have been a more clear cut murder.
We are back to acceptibilty again, should he go free because he used a gun to kill the burgler instead of a knife, or hanging, drowning, poison or set his pack of wild dogs on him.
The method of murder is irrelevant, the fact that it happened is very relevant.
Just like killing a fox by dogs or a chicken/rabbit by twisting its neck rather than shooting it.
I suppose only veggies can truly answer that last part
_________________________
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the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#160622 - 09/05/2003 08:12
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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The difference is that Martin did not actively go out of his house to kill someone. Someone came to him looking for trouble, and found it.
I know what follows isn't the point, but if the 2 burgulars had been in prison, they wouldn't have been free to enter hsi house in the first place. Prison should be so gruesome that you have to worry about where your next meal is coming from. It sure as hell shouldn't be the holiday it is now. If it served its purpose, those 2 guys would be so scared of going back, that Martin wouldn't have had to shoot him.
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#160623 - 09/05/2003 08:14
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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But it was not murder, and he should be paroled by now. The only reason he's not been paroled is because he hasn't said sorry. Why should that be?
Why should he be treated any differently to everyone else? If you don't show remorse you don't get parole. This is true in most Western countries, and indeed in the USA it can mean the difference between life and death (a death sentance cannot be commuted if the condemned does not admit guilt, or so I understand).
The legal stance on this is thus: your guilt is not in question, because you have been convicted. Therefore, as a guilty man, you should be shown leniancy only if you have acknowledged your wrong doing and convince the parole board that you will not reoffend.
This doesn't work well for people who were falsely convicted, however the legal system cannot second guess itself - and that's a different issue. Martin isn't disputing what he did, he is disputing that he was wrong to do it, and in law that is clearly untrue. Therefore he is demonstrating that he has not been rehabilitated and should not be released early.
Rob
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#160624 - 09/05/2003 08:29
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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If burglars felt no threat breaking into houses chaos would run rapid. The threat of a short prison stay does not adequately deter crime. The threat of an instant shotgun blast is a much better deterrent.
If our best shot (pardon the pun) is to prevent crime by making people scared to commit it then our society is pretty screwed long term anyway. The deterrent that prevents me from breaking into peoples houses is the conflict with my principles - the basic feeling that it is wrong. If all that concerned me was getting shot then I would probably train to become a better burglar, or carry a bigger gun than most of my victims.
If Martin can demonstrate compassionate principles he can walk out of prison. If his solution to his difficult situation is to continue to shoot people then he's going nowhere.
Rob
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#160625 - 09/05/2003 08:32
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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But in practice, what would end the crime in the long term? I'd rather live in a messed-up society with no crime, than a non-screwed society where crime ran riot like Back to the Future part 2!
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#160626 - 09/05/2003 08:46
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If our best shot (pardon the pun) is to prevent crime by making people scared to commit it then our society is pretty screwed long term anyway. The deterrent that prevents me from breaking into peoples houses is the conflict with my principles - the basic feeling that it is wrong. Unfortunately not everyone shares the same moral principles. In fact, apart from religion (and not all people are religious) there is no compelling reason to follow any moral standard at all. I also can say that Martin did not go to jail peacefully because his moral principles told him to; he did it because he’d end up getting shot if he didn’t obey. Making people scared is the only way to prevent crime unless either all people adopt the same religious code (not likely until the return of Christ ) or someone comes up with a pragmatic reason for all people to adhere to the same moral standard. And saying “for the benefit of society” doesn’t work, because no one really cares about society when it comes down to a personal gain or loss.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#160627 - 09/05/2003 08:47
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: rob]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Rob, unlike you and me some people are just plain animals with no moral values or feelings of right and wrong. They are out for themselves and to heck with everyone else. They unfortunately must be treated like animals, locked up or in some way deterred from being “bad.” Hopefully the “non-animal” humans (I know that makes no literal sense but you get my point) will continue to flourish and keep the animals at bay.
And yes, he broke the law and by doing that they are entitled to keep him in prison. At least he has the conviction to stand by his principles, like them or not.
Hopefully the laws will be changed to favor defendant rather than the aggressor.
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#160628 - 09/05/2003 08:52
Re: I'm disgusted
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In fact, apart from religion (and not all people are religious) there is no compelling reason to follow any moral standard at all. I don't want this to turn into another religion thread (any more than it already is), but this is, if you'll excuse the expression, bullsh it.
I don't have a religious bone in my body, yet I cannot bring myself to kill anything. I realize that's hypocritical given my carnivorous nature, but it's true. On several occasions, I've been in the situation where I've come across an animal too hurt to survive and in pain, and I still can't do it. Fortunately for the animal, there were others around who could. But the fact that religion has anything to do with it is totally bogus. Society, maybe.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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