OTOH, I did like how much of the Ewok party was excised from RotJ

To bring it only very slightly back on topic... why do I get the feeling that if George were to see a particular scene in the new Matrix that he'd put all that back in, and then some?

Hey Jim

I have regressed to 28.8 access. That and a crummy typing position (back living on my boat) tends to turn me in to a bit of a lurker. Can't read any more of this thread until I've seen the movie!

On a scale of 1 to 10 I would give it a 0000 1000 -belezeebub

On a scale of 1 to 2, you would give it an 8? (Or 128, with little-endian byte order?) It's good, but certainly not that good.

Was anyone else surprised to see the hose attachments on everyone's body? I had assumed (incorrectly I realize after re-watching the first movie) all the attachment points except at the head were surgically removed. Apparently, they just made sure the freed characters wore long sleeves and pants in the first movie to make it easy for the makeup department.

Matrix 2 SPOILERS. If you haven't seen the movie, for cripes sake go see it already.

I saw it today for the second time and it's better the second time. I picked up hints that I missed before and even the way-shallow fight scenes are tolerable.

I think the rave scene is important because these people are celebrating their "humanity" and love, which isn't real, but I'll get to that.

I particularly like one theory that I read online... Zion is another level of Matrix and everyone in any Matrix is a program... with the possible exception of the woman Neo kisses (Persephone). The whole point of the Matrix is to find the one program that is a true human AI. Neo is the 6th candidate so far, and this one chooses love over life. Persephone is a test to see if Neo can really feel human.

When a program in the main Matrix realizes it's fake, it's flushed into the new Matrix (The *real* world). As the programs advance in awareness, their AI is getting better and better. The Oracle is a guide to reaching this perfect AI level and programs such as the Merovingian are tests.

I would be very satisfied if the plot ended up this way. But if Neo can shoot lightning bolts and programs can leave the Matrix, then things are going to be pretty disappointing. Notice that the monitors looking at the Matrix1`'s agent interrogation room are the same as the Architect's?

Watch the movie again and really think about what the Architect says. It's not just filler. Remember-you never really know a person until you fight them.

-Hoagy.

I guess I will have to see it again. I thought it sucked the first time I saw it.

Don't read this if you haven't seen it yet!

Zion is another level of Matrix and everyone in any Matrix is a program...

While I seem to be the one person on the planet who wouldn't mind the "matrix within a matrix" answer, I really don't think that's where this is going. It makes sense, but it's also been done before (the 13th floor for an immediate example, which came out around the same time as the first Matrix). Anyway, it's probably intented that we think it's a matrix within a matrix right now (after the second movie), but it would really bring the first movie down a few levels if "reality" turned out to be a hoax.

[One theory is that] The whole point of the Matrix is to find the one program that is a true human AI.

If my theory of "love is the answer" turns out to be correct (and I think it will looking back at the climax in both movies) the "search for the real human AI" probably wouldn't work unless both Trinity and Neo are involved (since their love seems to be a focal point).

But if Neo can shoot lightning bolts and programs can leave the Matrix, then things are going to be pretty disappointing.

I have no problem with programs leaving the Matrix. Smith has just managed to reprogram a human beings brain (this also happens in the 13th floor). As for Neo's powers at the end, I'm hoping there is some other explanation other than "he suddently developed psi powers" because that would really irritate me. I don't have any other answer though.

Also one thing I'd like to say: while I think it's fun to speculate about what's going on in the Matrix movies, I've been checking out some Matrix message boards to see what other people think and boy do some of them really get bent out of shape! We've had more civil religious and political discussions here than some of the threads I've read about a friggin movie. And they're not even disagreeing about thematic interpretation; they're having knock down drag outs over what they think is going to happen in the last movie, like they have some control over it. People can be so funny.

Aha... It could be that he *thinks* he's left the Matrix but hasn't really which would nicely explain away why he can do the funky lightning stuff Bit of a crappy ending tho. It would be equivalent of a soap where they explain away a lot of things by saying it was all a dream.

I do agree with you about how fanatical some people get about it. They had a few programmes on TV yesterday about the Matrix and the Matrix Reloaded and it interviewed some people. One woman has seen the original over 150 times, watched portions of it in slow motion and wrote her MSc thesis on it.

- Trevor

Given that the first movie is 136 minutes in length, that would mean this person has spent at least 340 hours or a little over 14 solid days watching it...wtf

Still more spoliers

It could be that he *thinks* he's left the Matrix but hasn't really which would nicely explain away why he can do the funky lightning stuff

The best explanation for everything that I can think of so far (though I don't think it's true) is this:

For the Matrix to function there must be choice. Therefore everyone is given a choice of the Matrix or Zion both of which are simulations. Zion is for the 1% of people who reject the Matrix and need another place to go. However, there is still another 1% who will reject the Zion program. When these people appear as they necessarily must they become the "one" and the whole system is rebooted. It's all a cycle to control humans, but now Neo is breaking it by choosing love over destiny. Like I said, though this is the best explination I have so far I'm betting (hoping?) we all get suprised in the last movie.

The one thing that seems clear, however, is that even in the future the NT code base has survived, and in fact been used to develop the Matrix, hence the need for systematic rebooting.

Hopefully it was spread out between 1999 when it was the original was actually released and now
But even that's like watching it every 10 days or so since 1999... It's just crazy!

- Trevor

You could go on forever about how it's a matrix within a matrix which is within another... And at each stage you'd get that 1% which refuses to believe it. The thing is that if they did use the plot that he's still within the matrix then why don't they just unplug him, kill him and dump the body? Would get rid of any rogue people pretty quickly and cleanly. Then again, I seem to remember there was some little bit of trivia that prevented them doing this in the first film... Bleh. I say just wait until they release the final part.

At least it's running NT. If it was 95 then it would only go for 47.5 days at a time...

- trevor

I don't have an example of an OMV parody handy, perhaps someone can give one.

Isn't there one in one of the Naked Gun films, with Neilsen and Presley running down the beach to music, and clothes-lining some unsuspecting jogger to the floor?

Yeah, I seem to recall one or more of the Z.A.Z films doing OMV parodies.

I have not read most of this thread, but I wanted to give my impressions anyway.

I assume that at this point, people who are reading this thread won't find the following info to be spoilers, but you've been warned

Yeah, it had lots of discussions of pseudo-philosophy, but I enjoyed those. They added to the atmosphere.

As far as the action and storyline go, they couldn't have been better. The fight with the multiple Agent Smiths was one of the best fight scenes in movie history. Period. Also, the freeway scene was everything it was hyped up to be.

As for the plot line, I ate it up. The big revelation from the Architect, the fact that the Oracle was a machine's control program, everything. Just amazing.

Lastly, people have complained about the fact that it was so cut off at the end. I didn't see it that way at all! Everyone knows there's a sequel coming out. Everyone knows it's a trilogy. This movie had about 2 climactic scenes (destruction of the Architect's tower and the destruction of the Nebuchadnezzar) which provided enough of a sense of a big ending. The first Lord of the Rings (and the second, for that matter), had much more of a non-ending. I thought this one was just right for what they wanted to do. Plus, we only have to wait 6 months or so.

So that's my impression, or some of them. I loved it.

I thought the movie was very sweet & sour. The fight between Neo & the thousand Agent Smiths look horrible. It was like watching a bad Playstation 2 game.

Also , some of the effects in the car chase scene were bad too. Like the fight on top of the semi had the bad shaky cam effect. Did anyone else notice that it looked like an ad for Cadillac? The scene at the beginning (the Trinity dream sequence) was amazing!

At the end of the movie, I thought Neo's new "powers" were actually EMP from the other ship?

Also, I believe the whole point of the rave/sex scene was to show what machines can't do...

I can see your point of view on each of those scenes. The CGI wasn't too bad on the Agent Smiths scene, IMO. I was kind of pissed off at all the Cadillac stuff, though. They could have toned it down a little, but every car seemed to be a brand new caddy. At least they got destroyed and we could imagine Celine Dion sitting in there when they flipped.

I agree, the Trinity dream sequence was amazing. It took the bullet time effect to a whole new level.

I agree that the Cadillac was a little far fetched. I think that those bullets probably would have pierced throught the small sheet metal and hit them, but I can get passed it.

As to the EMP...It couldn't have been the EMP because:
1. Neo became fatigued and went into a coma.
2. The ship wouldn't have been able to fly if they had to fire off their EMPs.

The CGI wasn't too bad on the Agent Smiths scene, IMO.

No, it wasn't too bad, but it was very hit and miss. Some parts of the sequence looked great (minor things like cloth aside), but then some parts were just downright awful. It was definately not polished to the same consistency the entire way through. This echos pretty much what everyone I've talked to at work has said. I was expecting better from Esc in that regard. The choreography was... okay, but the more Agent Smiths there were in the scene, the more it just started to look and feel like a video game cut sequence (or even game play).

as far as the philosophy is concerned, the tag line does read "free your mind"..........

They could have toned it down a little, but every car seemed to be a brand new caddy. At least they got destroyed and we could imagine Celine Dion sitting in there when they flipped.

There were only a couple Cadillacs, mainly the white CTS and the black Escalade. Although almost every single car was a GM car. I think by Celine Dion you mean Chrysler cars, not Cadillac. I hope Cadillac never stoops to the level of hiring a crack head french canadian no talent ass clown. Led Zeppelin, now there's talent.

As far as the matrix-in-a-matrix theory for Zion, that seems plausable but what about this spin: Zion is another matrix created by a competing machine society to destroy the original matrix machine society. I like that.

You're right. Damn, I forgot that

I was actually an extra in The Matrix. My job was to drive my black Miata up and down the freeway that they built in Alameda. I met the Trinity and Agent Smith stunt doubles, had a great lunch, and made $100.00 or so. Was fun, but kinda boring.

They didn't call it "The Matrix" btw, they called it "Burly Man" - the book that the main character is reading in Barton Fink, btw...

I didn't see any scenes that had my car in it... :-(

- Jon

They didn't call it "The Matrix" btw, they called it "Burly Man"

Yeah, to prevent too many crowds from showing up at the filming of blockbuster sequels, they shoot them under a code name. I remember seeing the crew T-shirt for one of the Star Wars sequels saying "Blue Harvest". Kind of a dead giveaway, though, because it was in the Star Wars logo font.

Way back when, I got to go to one of the sets for the second Bill and Ted movie. Crap movie but it was kind-a fun. (and since Keanu was in it, I'm still on topic! ) That movie was originally called "Bill and Ted go to Hell". The crew all had hats and T-shirts etc. etc. I thought it was a great title.
Then they changed the name and the whole thing went in the crapper.

I don't know, it was kind of fun to see Bill and Ted play Battleship with Death

I think by Celine Dion you mean Chrysler cars, not Cadillac.

Celine Dion?

Maybe I'm wrong but all of the recent Chrysler ads I've seen feature Diana Krall, who is currently Canada's first lady of Jazz...maybe you American sorts have to bone up on your Canadian talent eh?

Betya didn't know that the guy famous for Auld Lang Syne was Canadian....

It looks like you Canucks get to listen to (and look at) Ms Krall, while we US-ians are forced to listen to (and look at) Celine.

we US-ians are forced to listen to (and look at) Celine.

Between my PVR (no commercials) and my empeg (no radio) I don't generally see or hear anyone I don't want to. About the only Celine song I know is that one from the Titanic, and I haven't even seen that in the last few years. Thanks again empeg guys: you've saved me from Celine!

Yikes!