#164960 - 11/06/2003 02:08
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Isn't that what the US does now with death penalties imposed against convicted felons? But our criminals are not innocent people, and that makes a difference. You might say that Saddam's people were guilty in his eyes, but that's not enough. We do not execute people for idle crimes. So why then has the US not sorted out North Korea & Iran already [to name the "Axis of Evil" countries mentioned post 9/11] I don't know, though it's clear we can't engage in another war. However, I'll conceed this point (see my above post). And therefore to try and draw a line in sand between the good guys and bad guys is getting harder by the day. Yes it is, and the U.S. has supported some very bad things. This is moot, though, in my overall point. Saddam was without question evil, no matter what we have or haven't done. If you think that badness is relative, or that what Saddam did was OK because he had the right title then you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I just disagree and believe we can call what Saddam did evil.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#164961 - 11/06/2003 02:21
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I do want to respect your wish not to argue the points you have laid out as example, but, among the many, this is one that I feel a need to comment on. Actually it's fine. The only one I really don't want to get into is the "Pro Life/ Pro Choice" thing. We haven't once discussed it here to my knowledge, and I don't want to start now. But actually, If you'll read my other posts it does look like I commented too quickly on that one. I've heard stories from cops about racial profiling being taken too far, where they are being hampered in their jobs unreasonably. That is what I'm against, and I will agree with you that the "us vs. them" racist attitudes have no place in our police departments. As far as who you search getting on an airplane, I'll actually go ahead and say that the selections should be totally random. If they aren't, then the next time someone wants to hijack an airplane they'll find an 85 year-old grandma to do it. There's got to be one sympathizer out there somewhere who'd filter through the "profile". Random checks aren't really trying to find people who are going to hi-jack a plane, they're a deterrent for those people who now have to think twice whoever they are. This really stinks for the 85 year old Grandma, but unless she has an equal chance of being selected for testing, we give any potential terrorists an advantage.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#164962 - 11/06/2003 14:48
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 30/04/2001
Posts: 745
Loc: In The Village or sometimes: A...
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In reply to:
What was the ROI for ousting Saddam specifically? What made it better than liberating any other country with an evil dictator?
In a word, OIL
No other "evil dictator" regime I can think of currently has the reserves of oil that the US requires. Despite previous statements in this regards in this BBS and elsewhere I have read - the US is NOT self-sufficient in oil and has not been for some time nor will be ever again (at least while SUVs in particular and internal combustion engines in general, roam the planet)
Therefore the US has to obtain long term external sources of oil to keep its citizens in the style to which they have become accustomed...
...North Korea has nothing the US wants [except maybe a common border with China], Iran is pretty much in the same boat as North Korea..
So the conclusion you reach after considering everything, is that yes, oil is a large part, if not the root, of the problem here.
Saddam had so much of it, he could therefore use it to fund his regime indefinately through smuggling operations - something he has done for 10+years.
Having a "pro-US" regime in Iraq for the forseeable future, will give the US preferential access to Iraq current oil reserves, and more importantly, will allow US energy companies to explore for and then develop/exploit Iraqs untapped oil reserves.
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#164964 - 11/06/2003 15:28
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 30/04/2001
Posts: 745
Loc: In The Village or sometimes: A...
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In reply to:
But our criminals are not innocent people, and that makes a difference. You might say that Saddam's people were guilty in his eyes, but that's not enough. We do not execute people for idle crimes.
A small but significant portion of US convicted criminals [in particular those on death row] are wrongly convicted (and are/have been proveably innocent) and therefore have been and no doubt will continue to be killed unlawfully...
...This is a problem with the US justice system.
Any country with death penalties faces this problem. Its a major reason why death penalties are no longer practised in most "1st world" nations. The US being a notable exception here.
So if you say the conviction makes the difference, then criminals in the US are convicted and killed [wrongly] - no less than some "criminals" in Iraq were.
This is merely flip-sides of the same coin. If you routinely kill people as part your justice system, you're going to make mistakes.
In reply to:
Saddam was without question evil, no matter what we have or haven't done. If you think that badness is relative, or that what Saddam did was OK because he had the right title then you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I just disagree and believe we can call what Saddam did evil.
Evil is a value judgement. Not a statement of fact.
However, if you assume that there is a ranking/relativity of "good" and "better" countries/regimes - and by your previous statements/comments I assume you'd agree with that.
Then you must also agree that the same goes for "bad" and "badder" countries/regimes.
So, yes, maybe we can all agree Saddams regime was "bad" - but the $64,000 qeuestion is was it actually a worse regime than any of the (many) other "bad" regimes out there? [say the Teleban?], how about North Korea? Iran?
And if so, why was it "worse" than the others? And also, is it the "worst"? If not, then why is it being singled out for "special attention"?
These questions I have yet to see anyone answer properly.
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#164965 - 11/06/2003 17:33
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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What about the 99.9% of the criminals rightly convicted? If somebody kidnaps your five year old daughter, rapes her tiny little virgin hole, slits her throat, chops her up into pieces, leaves her in the desert for the birds eat, then gets convicted by a jury with "no reasonable doubt" of his guilt, are you gonna plead for this man's life because you think there is a slight chance he was wrongly convicted? Hell no. You want the son of a bitch to die. Just like he made your innocent daughter die. Oh, he's mentally retarded too. I guess since he was obviously too much of a dumbfuck to realize what he was doing, he should be given leniency. After all, the killer shark that killed and maimed people shouldn't be killed either since it's IQ is much lower than a retarded human's and it didn't realize what it was doing or the full consequences of its actions..
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#164966 - 11/06/2003 17:48
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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I have post ths article when folk talk about the death penalty
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030611/323/e222t.html
So what happens to the people who withheld the evidence that murdered an innocent man?
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the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#164967 - 11/06/2003 17:57
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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are you gonna plead for this man's life because you think there is a slight chance he was wrongly convicted? Hell no. You want the son of a bitch to die. Right. Which is exactly why cases are decided by the dispassionate.
On the other hand, wrong. IMO, no one should cause anyone else to die if at all possible. That's the basis for the wrongness of the original murder. I've yet to see how killing him is going to help matters. He should probably be removed from society to prevent him doing it again, but killing him is just the easy and, IMO, wrong way out.
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Bitt Faulk
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#164968 - 11/06/2003 18:03
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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What about the 99.9% of the criminals rightly convicted? I'm also sure that as many of the people executed in Iraq were rightly convicted. It's just that there were a lot more capital offenses there than there are in the US.
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Bitt Faulk
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#164969 - 12/06/2003 04:07
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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A small but significant portion of US convicted criminals [in particular those on death row] are wrongly convicted (and are/have been proveably innocent) and therefore have been and no doubt will continue to be killed unlawfully... I don't see how wrongful convictions in the U.S. relate to blatent, premeditated murders in Iraq. I suppose that your case could be that allowing for the possiblity of an innocent person being executed is the same as murdering innocents with full intent, but to me they are two different things. You could also carry this argument beyond death penalties. Innocent people can receive life imprisonment, which is akin to tortuing them for the rest of their lives. This is unfortunate, but it doesn't put any country that imprisons criminals on the same "level" as Iraq. Any country with death penalties faces this problem. Its a major reason why death penalties are no longer practised in most "1st world" nations. The US being a notable exception here. I do understand that you think death penalties are barbaric and there is room for discussion there. I just won't agree that what the U.S. does in it's criminal justice system is the same as what Saddam did.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#164970 - 12/06/2003 04:27
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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On the other hand, wrong. IMO, no one should cause anyone else to die if at all possible. This actually is indirectly one of my uncomforts with the death penalty. I ultimately support the death sentence intellectually, but carrying it out is a different story. I cannot imagine being the person (or persons) responsible for carrying out the execution of an individual because some other people told me it was the right thing to do. That's the basis for the wrongness of the original murder. Not quite. The wrongness of the original murder was that the person knowingly took an innocent person's life and displayed a disregard for that innocent life. ("innocent" meaning non-murdering). I've yet to see how killing him is going to help matters. Two answers: Justice and deterrent. I feel that you definitely wouldn't agree with the concept of "Justice" in this case, so I'll leave it alone. As far as being a deterrent, it hardly works now because the system is so messed up. It takes so long to execute a person that there isn't any perceived loss attached to the action which receives a death penalty. Even if it were more immediate, there are still reasonable questions to how much of a deterrent the death penalty would prove to be. For my own part, I do support the death penalty, but not without reservation. The concept of anyone taking another person's life and that person knowing it's coming and being powerless to stop it because the action is protected under the law does bother me.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#164971 - 12/06/2003 07:53
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Well, considering that the TV pictures I've seen lately of US miltary patrols in Iraq, show shouting and hollering at Iraqi citizens in American English,
Yes, standard American tourist communication...
by the "ground forces" on patrol - 'cos thats all the Americans know how to speak, then I would have to say that there is not a very good relationship at all.
Part of it may be a product of my imagination run wild, but as I consider the possible continued attrition and slide in morale and increase in alienation, I can almost hear the change in the chatter among the troops. This includes new pejorative/racial terms for Iraqis
(think: some new incarnation of "gook")
At least the British patrols appear to have local translators and therefore are able to communicate with the locals in their language.
I hadn't heard of any British ambush casulties in this "post war" period and wondered (if true) how much of that was attributed to smaller force size (lower exposed denominator) versus force position (perhaps not sitting on top of Baath stongholds) versus better relationships/communication. It's also conceivable to me that whoever is targeting the Iraqi attacks decided to target US troops exclusively for political effect -- it's not like the British would stay when we pull out....
Most of the US patrols I've seen footage of don't have anyone with local knowledge of the language or customs with them (or if they do, its only becuase the camera crew filming them bought one). Because of this the chances for simple misunderstandings on either side to have serious or even fatal consequences seems very real.
I expect that stories like the killing of 13 Iraqis in Falluja have very long "legs" among the locals and put a pretty bad dent in the US military's ability to strike a credible social worker pose. Added to this and the lack of communication is the strategy of the Saddamists to bushwhack US troops in ways (distressed pregnant woman in car, car broken down, or "we need a doctor") and I think that a situation is evolving where the only communication *will* be shouting at distances exceeding RPG range.
Seems to me that the US military has overlooked this sort of "day to day" situation which occurs when a army switches from fighting to occupying. Just look at what mistakes happen in Japan and Germany now with US forces, and this is after nearly 60 years of "occupation".
To be fair, the most well organized occupier could encounter situations where criminals in their ranks rape and murder, but with respect to Japan/Okinawa/Germany, perhaps you had more in mind?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#164972 - 12/06/2003 08:07
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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In a word, OIL.
...........................
Having a "pro-US" regime in Iraq for the forseeable future, will give the US preferential access to Iraq current oil reserves, and more importantly, will allow US energy companies to explore for and then develop/exploit Iraqs untapped oil reserves.
I'm waiting for someone to dispute your contentions on this point, but that may be a little harder to do now that many of the other, less-conspiracy-oriented war rationale are burdened with increasing implausibility.
The announceed withdrawal of US forces from Saudi Arabia, coincident with the "end" of the Iraq war, is no surprize at all. As many billions as Cheney and friends have made through their cozy ties with the Saudis, I think even they have realized that Saudi political society is fundamentally diseased and not a reliable or cooperastive ally.
In this scenario, we might as wll pull out from Saudi Arabia and let the corrupt royal family deal with their radical mullahs in what ever way they choose. If the royal family makes a deal with the mullahs or is overthrown by them (and we perceive a threat), no problem. We can just invade from our new bases in Iraq!
Tipping the table, I think that guy said.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#164973 - 12/06/2003 10:02
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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That being said, I won't say that I completely disagree with you in pure principle, based almost solely on the ridiculous spectacle of watching airport security guards search 85 year-old grandmas.
Well, racial profiling in 'war on terror' will only make terrorists' job easier. What better place to hide a weapon than unsuspecting grandma's huge handbag? In pre-1948 Palestine both Jews and Arabs were choosing light-skinned guys to attack British...
Edit: again not reading the thread to the end before responding redundantly....
Edited by bonzi (12/06/2003 10:06)
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#164974 - 12/06/2003 10:39
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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IMO, no one should cause anyone else to die if at all possible.
This actually is indirectly one of my uncomforts with the death penalty. I ultimately support the death sentence intellectually, but carrying it out is a different story. I cannot imagine being the person (or persons) responsible for carrying out the execution of an individual because some other people told me it was the right thing to do.
For my own part, I do support the death penalty, but not without reservation. The concept of anyone taking another person's life and that person knowing it's coming and being powerless to stop it because the action is protected under the law does bother me.
Then you are on good path, Jeff. At least you seriously think about situation where killing somebody in cold blood and not in protection of anybody or anything is for some unfathomable reason declared lagal, and not what it actually is, a murder.
The wrongness of the original murder was that the person knowingly took an innocent person's life and displayed a disregard for that innocent life. ("innocent" meaning non-murdering).
Again, I think that the wrongness of murder is in killing somebody without being forced to do that in order to stop greater harm. So, you can guess what kind of opinion I have of ex-governor of Texas.
Justice and deterrent.
Many primitive societies equate justice with revenge. Civilized society has no business doling out 'justice' with any purpose other that minimizing future occurences of crime. But even there some limits must be observed; e.g, I hope you don't approve of amputations Islamic law prescribes for thieves?
It has been proven pretty conclusively that death penalty is not a general deterent (that is, that it does not lower future occurrence of crimes it was used against).
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#164975 - 12/06/2003 13:45
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Well, racial profiling in 'war on terror' will only make terrorists' job easier. What better place to hide a weapon than unsuspecting grandma's huge handbag? In pre-1948 Palestine both Jews and Arabs were choosing light-skinned guys to attack British...
Edit: again not reading the thread to the end before responding redundantly....
Well, thanks, though, for reminding me that I forgot to respond to Jeff's response.
My thought in using the "grandma" example was not to say that some element of randomness is bad, but I think that complete randomness (as practiced by early post-9//11 secondary screeners) is/was bad and pretty hilarious. I *do* have a hard time worrying that Islamist terrorists will recruit 87 and 85 year-old Sven and Shirley Jensen from Cedar Rapids, Iowa to do their dirty work. Not impossible, but likely? Perhaps as the Dept of Homeland Security's brilliant threat analyses identify an uptick in threats from the domestic Timothy MvVeighs, then Sven and Shirley should get a harder look. On the flip side, relying lazily on profiling to just pull all the "Middle Eastern-looking men" out of line for screening is a setup for the kind of unhappy surprise you suggest.
Some element of randomness increases the likelihood that flaws in other screening methods will be identified, but I would say that complete randomness is not effective without cost-prohibitive screening rates.
If the reputation of El Al is to be believed, they have a successful (the most successful?), albeit expensive, system that is multi-factorial.
To your point of working around "profiling" preconceptions with atypical bombers, I would, in a brief tangent, recommend the film The Battle of Algiers to anyone who has never seen it. Great movie.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#164976 - 12/06/2003 14:05
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: bonzi]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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So, you can guess what kind of opinion I have of ex-governor of Texas.
Why? because of the people executed while he was governor? Do you feel the same way about the very liberal governor before him?
What about the Nazis? Should we have issued handcuffs to the troops instead of guns? Then they could run up to the nazis real fast and slap handcuffs on them. Then we'd just detain them in huge prisons for the rest of their lifes. All without killing anyone of course.
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#164977 - 12/06/2003 14:29
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Why? because of the people executed while he was governor? Do you feel the same way about the very liberal governor before him? According to this yearly summary of Texas executions and this list of Ann Richards' and George W. Bush's terms (and eliding the very slight overlap between calendar year and term), Richards allowed the execution of an average of 12 people per year (which is still way too high), while Bush allowed the execution of an average of almost 26 people per year. (BTW, what's the deal with Bush's 1996's three executions?) Also, Richards administration presided over an average of almost eight removals from death row, while Bush's presided over an average of almost four.
Still, you're right that Richards' administration presided over a dramatic increase in executions, but Bush's rise was ever greater. The four previous administrations had averages of executions and removals in these numbers: 0/1 0.25/12 5/6 4/6 -- The second and fourth ones are actually the same (Republican) governor.
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Bitt Faulk
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#164978 - 13/06/2003 00:13
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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So I guess the governor had direct control over:
a) How many people were accused of committing murderous crimes in a given year.
b) How many of those people were convicted by a jury of their peers.
c) The severity of the punishment given out
What should the governor do? All he can do is let all the criminals off the hook, kind of like Bill Clinton did to all the billionaires on the last night of his presidency.
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#164979 - 13/06/2003 01:32
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
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It has been proven pretty conclusively that death penalty is not a general deterent (that is, that it does not lower future occurrence of crimes it was used against).
Actually, it does stop further offences remarkably effectively, in the special case of the executee.
pca
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...
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#164980 - 13/06/2003 06:26
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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What should the governor do? All he can do is let all the criminals off the hook, kind of like Bill Clinton did to all the billionaires on the last night of his presidency. No. The governor can commute death sentences to life sentences. That was part of my statistics above.
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Bitt Faulk
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#164981 - 13/06/2003 06:38
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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And override the justice system? to ignore the will of the people?
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#164982 - 13/06/2003 06:47
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The governor appoints judges (at least I'm pretty sure that's the case in Texas), who are the ones who set death sentences. At most, that could be considered changing one's mind.
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Bitt Faulk
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#164983 - 13/06/2003 08:13
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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The bottom line, regardless of what control Bush had over the death penalty in Texas, is that there is a reason he was elected governor of a state with more executions than any other by a factor of more than 3 (maybe even 4). He certainly didn’t make any bones about the issue, so we can assume he was most likely supportive of the number of executions in our state. I wouldn't say that it is out of line for someone who strenuously opposes the death penalty to have strong anti-Bush feelings based on that alone. On the flip side, I’m sure I would have strong feelings against a liberal governor of a state that practiced a different behavior to which I was vehemently opposed.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#164984 - 15/06/2003 23:36
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: number6]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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At least the British patrols appear to have local translators and therefore are able to communicate with the locals in their language.
On this point, the BBC on Friday interviewed military analyst Gwynne Dyer (author of the interesting "War" book/TV series years back) and he noted that British commanders had recently declined/refused to come north and join US forces around Baghdad/Faluja. He didn't say much more than this, but that could explain *part* of the absence of recent British casualties.
BBC also noted US Army officer/spokesman noting that, in the current anti-Baath operations around Faluja, (my best-effort paraphrase here) "all persons are being treated as hostile".
So, it sounds like the plan to turn Faluja street gangs into a summer youth basketball league are on hold.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#164985 - 24/06/2003 09:10
Re: What price a new president?
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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....the absence of recent British casualties.
Well, Jim, to the extent that you were offering some sort of half-baked theory, it is probably time to revise or abandon it .
No helicopter crash or jeep accident this. Six British dead and eight wounded. Two separate attacks
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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