How do you decide how important something is to you?

I'm thinking about getting a new car, and have it narrowed down to two models I think.

One of them is amazingly beautiful. The aerodynamics lines are gorgeous. The styling is phenomenal. The interior is just as nice. The problem is that the useful space is very limited. The performance is good, but only RWD.

The other's styling just sucks in my opinion. It has a spoiler that is completely ugly, way too big and gaudy. The interior is ugly as far as I'm concerned. That is a first and second impression, but I guess it is possible to grow on you. However, this one has a lot more useable cargo space (including 4 seats). It has great performance (better than the other), including AWD.

So, how do I figure out what is important to me, styling or usability? There are other factors involved that will help weigh the decision, but this is what I am struggling with now.

Thanks.

Okay, so a WRX STi, but what's the other one?

Really, though, I think that you have to compare how much different the performance is, and how much different the usability is. Have you test driven either one?

Are you going to find the STi (I assume) so ugly that you're not going to like to use it?

I guess my point is that you're concerned significantly by both, and trying to determine which is more important to you is a losing battle, and one you're probably going to question a lot, if you make the decision that way.

I'm guessing 350z vs. the Evo or WRX sti.

Here is what I've learned matters to me with luxury purchases. (And a high performance car is a luxury purchases in that it's something you are buying to excite you not because you require it.) I have to be proud of it and I have to feel that I've bought something special with my money. I want to look at the item and gush at how well designed and engineered it is. Practical considerations don't compensate for the lack of emotion.

-Dylan

Let me take a guess...

Lexus IS300 and Subaru WRX?

I liked the IS300 until I found out it's RWD. Very impractical. Again, I must recommend you look at a Saab. 9-3 Vector to be exact.

until I found out it's RWD. Very impractical. Again, I must recommend you look at a Saab.

If he can debate the questions for long enough, he could get in line for a Saab 9-2 with (gasp!) The Beauty of All-Wheel Drive...

I have to imagine that the notion of a Saab built in Japan is calculated *just* to drive Saab purists completely nuts!

Actually, most people I talk to think the SAABuru 9-2 is a good idea. I think so too.

The next-gen WRX is rumored to be jointly developed by Saab and Fuji so the 9-2 is just a stepping stone to get accepted into that market.

Why were these the two that were narrowed down to? IMO, there are enough different cars out there that there is likely one that will suit you without having to make too big a sacrifice. But Looks are subjective, and perhaps I wouldn't mind the one you think is ugly (unless it is an Aztec or Element, in which case I can promise I laugh at every one I see).

For example, what was important to me was practicality. Therefore I ended up being the only college student I know who actually chose to drive a minivan But hey, I needed to carry a lot of stuff, and I got to be the default driver for friends (I always prefer to drive than ride).

However, it was mostly because the first car I drove regularly (when I was 16) was an Oldsmobile Silhouette ("the Cadillac of minivans"). I love minivans. My car is infinitely more practical than an SUV, has great pickup (for a 4500 pound car), and a wonderful car-like ride, not to mention I've got a navigation system in there.

I also don't think I went against aesthetics. I like how my vehicle looks. It's attractive to me.

So, I guess this wasn't very helpful, but what is important to me is definitely not going to be the same as everyone else.

Yeah, it is a 350z vs. the STi. I didn't want to name them to avoid hurting anybody's sensibilities

Some other factors that come in, the 350z has a larger gas tank, but a bigger engine. I enjoy camping and the extra space would be nice for the gear (it wouldn't be the kinds of areas we took the Tundra into - I wouldn't even take the Tundra into most of them ). I would also prefer a car that not everybody and their sister and mom own. Both of these cars are exactly common, but I've seen more 350z's around than WRXs. There is at least one 350z here at work (it is gorgeous), and a G35 next door to my house.

The silver wheels on the STi look a lot better than the gold ones, but that spoiler is just hideous. I really don't know what they were thinking when they put the pink stickers on it either. I suppose it could look better in person than it does in the pictures, I haven't seen any around.

I haven't looked at the Evo since I became excited that they were finally importing them a few years ago. Maybe I'll take a look at them.

I've test driven the 350z, and it was really fun. I am trying to avoid test driving the STi since there is only one decent dealer around here, and the second I talk to a regular salesperson, I lose the ability to buy from the fleet guy.

Thanks again for the help

Me not understand. What's so impractiacal about RWD? RWD is fun fun fun...

Unless you live somewhere snowy

Snow + RWD is anything but fun. Unfortunately, in New York, snow is on the ground often enough for RWD to not be an option.

FWD is not even that great. That's why I have a 4x4 Isuzu Trooper in addition to my Saab.

RWD plus snow just means more fun

Apparently you never drove a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood through a snow storm. Not fun.

It doesn't snow here, and it doesn't rain very often. When it does rain, the streets flood pretty good though

I was assuming the rarity of the rain and the traction control would keep me out of trouble. Of course, growing up and learning how to drive in north central North Dakota taught me how to drive in snow/ice/wind/rain

It is hard to decide which would be better to play on the dirt/gravel roads while looking for a place to set up camp. The AWD would give me the choice to participate in a rally, if I wished (up until a couple years ago, an annual rally was held in the town I went to school in).

It is hard to decypher why I picked those two. I have been in love with the 300 series since the '92 model of the 300zx came out. I just though it was an awesome car, and really fun to drive. I think I picked the STi because up until a few years ago (when they went to the 'bug-eye' headlights), their styling was really nice. The bug-eyes eventually grew on me (though it took a long time). The STi was picked because of its performance. The 350z would either be a track or performance model - most likely track. So they are in the same price range also.

I'm not sure what pink stickers you're talking about. I think the STi is ugly, too, but I still like it. Folks have hinted that you might be able to remove the spoiler, but even then, you've still got that gigantic scoop.

You can get the performance package for the 350Z and not have too much of a dropoff from the STi. Something like 13HP and 26 lb. ft. -- a conceivably chippable amount.

I'd also suggest looking at the RX8, but I doubt it'll have enough power for you if these are the two cars you're looking at.

How often do you cart stuff around? A friend of mine has an MR2, which has even less cargo space than the 350Z (1.9 vs. 6.8 cu. ft.) and it doesn't bother him much.

I'm rambling. Let's cut to the chase.

Why is styling important to you at all, ignoring how much it's important?

Why is practicality?

Thought about the VW Golf R32 ? 3.2L V6, AWD and a hatchback.

Actually, most people I talk to think the SAABuru 9-2 is a good idea. I think so too.

Hey, and I thought you guys were purists!! What is this world coming to??? Maybe it is the Subaru purists who are upset???

Yeah, I wouldn't complain about a little Saab influence on my tacky interior (well, at least I don't get too hung up about drilling holes in the dash and things like that!)

Given that GM is involved, I will definitely be interested to see how it turns out. I hope it turns out well. As easy as it sometimes is to kick GM around, I don't like to do it!

Spiked Tires.

- trs

Thought about the VW Golf R32 ? 3.2L V6, AWD and a hatchback.

Now here's a man who's thinking. If I were looking today and was just thinking about street use, this is what I'd be looking at.

Subaru dealers are the ones who are most upset. I didn't know there was such thing as a Subaru purist. Are there still people driving around in a B.R.A.T.?

There are Saab purists and entusiasts. The purists have 900s that they keep running well into the 300,000 mile area and that's the newest Saab they will buy. Saab entusiats are more interested in seeing the brand continue to exist after seeing how close Saab came to death.

RWD plus snow just means more fun

In the absence of curbs, trees, pedestrians, and any other traffic or immovable objects, yes.

(Personal record for serial 360s in a 1968 Mercury station wagon: 4)

As a kid (before FWD) the *only* car that could get up the hill on my street during snow: a lowly VW Beetle.

The pink stickers are below the headlights, on the bumper. Yeah, the scoop is massive. My only hope is that it is actually functional - unlike the Mustang GT (I had to laugh at a friend who got the GT solely because of the scoop, she didn't care that it was just slapped on the hood, and didn't introduce any air into the engine). I agree that 'ugly' can still be 'gorgeous', just look at (going to aircraft, because that is what I know) the A-10, SuperGuppy, OV-10, AH-64 - function dictates form kind of thing. That is one of the reasons I think it might grow on me.

Styling is important because it translates directly into how much thought was put into the design. Good styling means good aerodynamics (my opinion of styling anyway) and that means better efficiency, quieter ride, and just an overall nicer looking vehicle.

Practicality is important for how it is used. As much as I wish I didn't need to, I still have to do grocery shopping (which I guess I don't need very much room for). When I have to move 'big' items (buying a new TV, a new desk or something), the cargo and crew space becomes important. How often I move that stuff varies. Camping equipment usually includes a good sized framepack, lots of extra drinking water, etc. Stuff that stays in my car all the time includes extra drinking water, emergency rations, and the like. That chews into the useable space - not a lot, but if you don't have a lot to begin with, you tend to notice.

Maybe I should consider other factors, such as maintenance. Does a tranny on an AWD vehicle wear quicker, cost more to repair, have more problems than a RWD vehicle? That is something to think about. Maybe insurance also, I'm guessing (but haven't checked) that a 350z is probably more expensive than an STi to insure.

Genexia, I didn't consider a hatchback. For some reason, I just can't deal with them.

I didn't consider a hatchback. For some reason, I just can't deal with them.

You should! You'd be amazed at the amount of stuff you can get in them. Last week I got 6 Emerald Green Arborvitae into mine.

Subaru dealers are the ones who are most upset.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I didn't know there was such thing as a Subaru purist. Are there still people driving around in a B.R.A.T.?

I have to say, I really had no standing love for Subarus until I got this one. I never liked the sound of the older flat fours and the older models were pretty tinny (many friends back east had Subarus). There do seem to be some younger, more recent purist/enthusiasts revolving around the Imprezas -- they probably just can't get their head around the notion of Colin McRae driving a Saab.

But they are poseur purists, I think. How can weird, old, Subarus ever hope to compare with the cachet of weird, old Saabs like this beauty? I will say, though, that I sometimes find the purists high degree of affection for their vehicles to be a little spooky.

my vote is one of the following: One, go for a standard WRX, and mod the hell out of it. You can come close to the performance (if not pass it) for about the same price and you won't have the huge wing and scoop, and the interior of the standard WRX is WAY better IMHO than the STi, That blue is just hideous. The interior of my wagon is one of my favorite things about it... the fabric is awesome.

You can buy all the STi parts and slap them on the WRX, they'll all fit. Then sell the parts you took off to offset the costs. The only huge difference you'll have is the 2.0 vs the 2.5L engine, and the 6 speed tranny. Hell, with the rate the STi's are being wrecked, you could even find an image to swap. But all that would be a huge headache...

OR, go the other way. buy an STi, and trade seats, carpet and the trunk lid with someone. You wouldn't believe the number of people clamoring for those on the NASIOC message boards. You could probably even make some money off the trade. Way easier, and you get all the power with a nice interior/exterior and way less headache and warranty issues.

Styling is important because ...

Practicality is important ...

Nuts. I was hoping that considering what each of them meant to you would bring you to an obvious conclusion, like my listing of all the things wrong with my wife's car did for me. (Of course, I still have to see what kind of raise I'm getting in a months' time.)

Another issue that I haven't seen anybody mention here is ergonomics. I suppose this is just a special case of practicality, but it's worth thinking about. By ergonomics, I mean everything from whether you can get in and out of the car comfortably to whether the air controls are easy to use without taking your eyes off the road. This is traditionally where American cars fall flat on their faces (particularly GM products) and where Japanese cars shine. I just test drove an Acura TSX yesterday, for example, and I was really impressed with small things like the turn signals and the beautifully readable gauges. The navigation system also has a clever push-to-talk button mounted under the steering wheel, and the voice recognition system works remarkably well.

If you get the TSX, you're still in the same financial ballpark as a 350Z or a WRX STi (well, several thousand dollars cheaper, but still...). The trade-off is better "luxury/ergonomic" features versus better performance features. One prime benefit of the WRX STi, contrariwise, is that it comes without any stereo, which makes it straightforward to add your empeg. That's much harder (maybe impossible) to do for the 350Z, and it's tricky for the TSX.

It's all about trade-offs. A Lexus IS-300 or Acura TSX (or BMW 3-series, or other European sedans) doesn't give you as much zoom for your dollar, but you get better craftwork on the interior, useful trunk space, and all that. Of course, you can always do an after-market super-charger.

Meanwhile, the other issue that I don't see you raising is reliability. We've talked about it at length in other threads. I'm curious if reliability is one of your criteria.

Obviously performance is a big issue for him, otherwise he could have chosen the much less ugly WRX (non-STi) and possibly been done with it. But he didn't. And neither the IS300 (which is surprisingly zippy) or the TSX (which is most definitely not) would stack up to either car he's selected.

Ergonomics is a very good point, though.

Reliability is an issue. Since the 350z is a new model, I didn't think there would be any data on it. I do know Subarus are hard to hurt, one of my friends drove his mothers off a cliff (long story) and it was fine.

The biggest problem with ergonomics is that I'm fairly tall. As long as the seat slides back far enough for me, I'm fine with most other things. Well, getting in and out of the car can be an issue, depending on the weather, but that is only a problem a few weeks out of the year here.

I admit it I didn't read the entire thread.

GET THE STi !

There is no question.

Unless you live somewhere snowy

Right. Don't do that.

I'm a RWD bigot. If you have snow, you need AWD and/or skill. I don't live in the snow, but I do visit it from time to time, and I'm more comfortable in a RWD car in the snow than FWD. FWD is probably easier for a novice in the snow, but I'm rather happier having seperate friction circles for steering and drive, rather than trying to do it all at one end.

Similarly, I don't really equate AWD with handling or performance in the dry. It's really different, and perhaps more forgiving, but I don't actually think it's worth its weight. FWD is obviously wrong for dry performance. (before the Saab purists descend...my family has owned several Saabs, and they were great cars. Indeed, being FWD was the only thing wrong with them.)

As to the aesthetic issues, I'm in both camps. As evidenced by the empeg-carriers I own: A Miata (gorgeous) and an M Coupe (form follows function, and not that closely)

The aircraft analogy is apt...when Automobile gave the M Coupe their Design of the Year award, the article was titled "Don't think 911, think Bf.109"

So my recommendation, get the 350Z. You like the looks much better (I'm not sure I agree, but that design doesn't do it for everyone), and I think it's probably a better driver's car. And if you're concerned about capacity, look at the Infiniti version. It's heavier, but all the road tests keep coming up with the same 0-60 times as the 350Z.

I'm with furtive - but as pointed out in another thread, I probably haven't seen 'proper' snow...

I get the impression that this will be a daily driver, right? (Based on your practicality requirement.) You might want to read C&D's review of the STi. They really like the car (although they liked the Evo more), but they do have a good number of complaints about it, which I think become more significant for a daily driver (stuff like noise from the tires, noise from the interior panels, noise from the scoop and wing bouncing).

My thought is that it might be too rough for a daily driver. And, if you don't like the styling, the looks you get might not be to your liking, either.

Their review of the 350Z (compared to four other two-seaters) was quite positive. It came in second only to the Honda S2000, and the way it was written was more like the Honda's better for redlining, but the 350Z is the ultimate in practicailty within the powerful two-seater confines. It's almost as if they wanted to split the contest in two, and give two first places.

I'd say that unless you plan to haul around more than one passenger or a lot of cargo on a regular basis, or if you plan on going to the track regularly, that you'll be happier with the 350Z. If you need to haul stuff, rent a truck. (The storage space I used to rent allowed use of their truck for free, even.) You'll deal with the styling every day, but the extra 13 HP in the STi will only benefit you every once in a while, and maybe not at all if you don't take it on a track.

Plus, I'd bet that the 350Z is more fun to drive. Of course, this is all said without ever having been in either one. And you should probably check out the storage on the 350Z. There's supposed to be behind-seat storage and a trunk. I don't know if they're connected. You might want to see if you can fit your regular stuff in there without problems.

Yes, this will be a daily driver. My commute to work is approximately 13 miles one-way, with 95% of that highway driving. I tend to do a lot of driving when I get a new car (like 200+ mile round trips just for a cheeseburger kind of thing). There is a lot of high-traffic highway driving, especially during the winter (hockey arena moved, so its like 50miles from me). Road noise and buffeting would probably be an issue.

I decided that saving a few thousand dollars wasn't that much when happiness is involved. I'm going to stop in for a test drive of the STi tomorrow, and check out the interior/exterior first hand.

Oh, yeah. I don't understand the thing with not being able to test drive it, but get a friend to test drive it and go along for the ride.

The thing that really scares me about the reviews you posted was the bowing and flexing of the scoop and wing. That just screams cheap...

Just to counter that... the guys on the NASIOC.com boards with STi's have made a few posts questioning why C&D said anything about scoop and wing flex... they haven't noticed it at all. And like i said earlier... if it's a problem, you'd have NO trouble finding a WRX owner to trade you their scoop and wingless trunk lid.

Yeah, but the scoop is definitely functional. IIRC, the intercooler(s?) are right below the scoop, and I don't know what would happen if they didn't get enough air.

The wing might also be required to provide enough downforce for the speeds the STi can get to.

Wasn't there something about a preignition problem, too?

The "detonation" problem continues to be an active topic on the varoius Subaru chat boards. Rumors have Subaru coming out with a fix "soon". I wouldn't touch an STi until the fix was out there and people were posting to say "my car works now".