On Saturday, I decided to go do some test driving, but I first called ahead to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time.

- I called three local Volvo dealers about the S60-R. Two told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story. A third took my name and number, saying they expected one would be coming in September and I could drive it then (assuming it doesn't get purchased first).

- I called three Infiniti dealers about the G35 Coupe. Two, again, told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, complete with all kinds of bad attitude. A third said they had a G35 Coupe, automatic, and a G35 Sedan, manual, and that I could try both to get a sense of what they might be like together. I left my name and number there, saying to call me when they get the car I might eventually like.

- The first Mazda dealer I called had a whole mess of RX-8's in stock. Sure, come on in and test drive it.

Since that Mazda dealer was also right next door to the Acura dealer, I went and drove a manual TSX and a manual RX-8, one after the other.

First, the TSX. I've always had 5-speeds, so six gears took a little getting used to. Sixth gear was down and just to the right of fifth, which took some work to get comfortable with. Nonetheless, the car was actually quite nice to drive. Humming along at 4000rpm didn't feel any different than 2000rpm. It's a very smooth engine. Unlike my current BMW six cylinder, this engine requires you to get your gear selection right. Even at 80mph on the freeway, there's a massive difference between 5th and 6th gears. (5th is great, 6th has no torque). Also, there was absolutely zero hint of any torque steer. None at all.

I also got a chance to play my standard "stereo torture" CD on the stereo. I have to give Acura a big thumbs down there. The bass goes low, which is nice and all, but it's boomy and the midrange/treble is just awful. If I bought this car, I'd immediately run out and drop a pile of money on good speakers. Performance is definitely above the bar, modulo the need to choose your gears wisely. Besides, it's just a Honda. In a year, there will be five vendors offering bolt-on supercharger kits. As I was discussing the car's need for aftermarket performance mods, the sheepish salesman shoved a piece of paper at me saying I needed to sign this waiver acknowledging that I was responsible if I damaged the car.

The Mazda RX-8 is quite an intriguing car, technically, but it doesn't live up to the hype once you get in. I bumped my head every time I tried getting in or out of the car. My (5 foot tall) fiancée fit into the back seat just fine, but you'd have to be on crack to say that it could fit larger people better than any other cramped sportscar. When you drive the thing, it's fun, but not actually all that fast. I was happily revving it up to 9000rpm, setting off the over-rev bell (and freaking the salesman), but it didn't really have much pull. My Z3 undeniably out-accelerates the RX-8. Also, the RX-8 makes a bunch of noise when you spool up the engine, versus the more mild-mannered (but every bit as fast) TSX. The transmission and clutch were wonderful. Both the TSX and RX-8 have beautiful short-throw 6-speed transmissions. My fiancée reports that my shifts were much jerkier on the RX-8 than on the TSX, although Mazdas are known to take some getting used to. On the RX-8, I ended up in 4th gear several times when I was trying to hit 6th. At least the engine has plenty of headroom so you won't blow it up or anything.

The RX-8 has a mean blind-spot from the driver-side B-pillar, whereas the TSX has fantastic visibility, all around. When I went to do a 60-0 panic stop (on an otherwise empty side street, giving plenty of warning to my passengers), the tires squealed and I didn't feel any of the usual ABS pumping. Very disturbing. The TSX, for contrast, performed exactly as you'd expect.

Also, the RX-8 trunk, with donut spare tire hanging from the roof, is astonishingly small. It's more like what you'd expect from a two-seat roadster rather than a four seat / four door car. The TSX, as you'd expect, has a massive trunk, plus the back seats nicely fold down giving you tons of continuous storage space if you want it.

Lastly, the Mazda/Bose "AudioPilot" stereo sounds remarkably good for a factory stereo. It's nowhere near a Volvo stereo, but I wouldn't be racing out to replace the factory speakers. Unfortunately, there's just no way to replace the factory head unit nor to wedge in an empeg. Also, when were listening to the stereo, with the car idling in the parking lot and A/C running (this is Texas in August, after all), the engine idle was really rough, noticably bumping us around in the car.

Next up, I want to test drive the ricer-boy cars (Subaru WRX STi and/or Mitsubishi Lancer Evo) and the Volkswagen Golf R32. At some point, I may even get up the courage to check out the Pontiac GTO. I've always hated GM cars, but this one was designed by Holden, so it might be better. I might even need to humor robricc and test drive a Saab.

Current short list: Lexus IS-300, Acura TSX
Eliminated: Mazda RX-8

There's an S60R to be test driven over here in NC, but that's too far away for you (Texas, right?). Besides, it's probably too late to get your hands on one.

it's probably too late

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on whether Volvo stops production or keeps it going. The last time they did an R car, according to something I read on the web, they ended up producing significantly more cars than they'd originally planned. Besides, I wouldn't even think of signing on the dotted line until I hear from you about how the empeg integration goes.

> I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story.

> I was happily revving it up to 9000rpm, setting off the over-rev bell (and freaking the salesman)...

Hmm, and I wonder why dealers aren't letting people test-drive expensive cars first?

Yeah, well, it's not considered abuse for an RX-8 to rev that high. It's not like you've got pistons to smash into anything. I wouldn't dare do that to a normal engine. Besides, the RX-8 has a specific set of fuel injectors that don't even start until something like 7500rpm. Gotta test those out, you know.

they expected one would be coming in September and I could drive it then (assuming it doesn't get purchased first).

...or the boat sinks on the way

Gareth

Good luck getting an STi to test drive. I think you'll get the same response as the S60-R. Not sure about the Evo... but i'd imagine that would he hard to get a test drive on as well. Are the R32's out yet??

Are the R32's out yet??

Don't know about the US, but saw the first one at the dealership I frequent about 6 months ago... (Sweden)

/Michael

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.
Present company not included. I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Many, most, all, everytime, always. Generalizations... suck, for lack of a better word.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

Present company not included. I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Yeah. She just hates her underling salespeople.

The last time they did an R car, according to something I read on the web, they ended up producing significantly more cars than they'd originally planned.

Yup. And this time, they already doubled it, and those are the numbers I'm thinking of. I could be wrong, though.

I have found that most car dealerships are absolute arses, I ended up buying my new car from one of those car supermarkets. Firstly the salesman actually called me back, which Renault Manchester never did. I think they look at me and think 'what a scruffy bastard', shame really, 'cos I'm a scruffy bastard with 13,000 quid to spend

My boss was shopping for a new car recently and found BMW had the best attitude - this was surprising as I have heard a lot of bad stories, except perhaps for Mercedes (this being the funniest). At the VW garage He wanted to test-drive the Golf VR6 but he got possibly as much as about two minutes behind the wheel before the salesman asked him to turn around and head back! At BMW they handed him the keys to a 328ci and asked him to bring it back "before we close" - and that was it! Needless to say he bought one, but I think he had decided already...

Gareth

>> Many, most, all, everytime, always. Generalizations... suck, for lack of a better word.

In general, I agree.

And when I went over to my local Morgan/TVR dealer, I got the keys to the Morgan 4/4 without any problems. OK, he did reverse it out of the showroom before jumping out and telling me to enjoy myself. Well, I did.

That's a very different experience than I've had, but as others in the thread have noticed, maybe BMW is just nicer about it.

In fact a year or two ago an ex-gf and I sporatically went over that BMW place out 59 towards Sugarland and acted like we were in the market for one of the (then) new bodystyle M3s. We both got to take it out on the freeway (with the salesman.)

John

...and acted like we were in the market for one of the (then) new bodystyle M3s. We both got to take it out on the freeway (with the salesman.)

Nice. Waste the man's time when you have no intention of buying anything. You may have cost him a deal by doing this. But what do you care, car salesmen arn't entitled to make a living because they're all assholes, right?


This is exactly why so many places won't let out a particularly desirable vehicle on a test drive without a deposit.

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

BMW was paying for that wear and tear, as well as covering the lost profit on that car. Most manufacturers do not.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

Guess what? In the US at least (can't speak for the Brittish, I live for Brittish customers) the customer created most of this attitude.

All standards of common decency often get checked at the door.

How many othjer stores do you walk into and speak to the sales help as if they're something unpleasant stuck to the bottom of your shoe? If the drug store closes at 9, do you get pissed at the pharmacist for not filling your prescription at 9:15 when you walked into a store with the lights off? People do this [censored] in dealerships all the time. And then get pissed off when we politely tell them we're closed. Aparently, we're not entitled to have lives.

Do people tell you every day how much money you're entitled to make? Half the people I deal with in a day have determined I'm entitled to no more than 1-3% gross markup on my product, no matter what the demand for it. We can make it up in volume. There 's a limitless number of people buying a new car in any given month. And our rent, electric, and labor is free.
Try telling this to any other merchant. Oh wait, I forgot, places like jewelers, clothing stores and optometrists are entitled to 200-400% markup on their product without argument.

"This guy's a moron but he's cheaper than you. I expect your level of service but at his price." I should be allowed to spit in your face for this kind of insult, but it's aparently OK when you sell cars. You do your job well, but should be paid the same as the asshole who really doesn't care. If you feel this is OK, you deserve to buy your car for someone like that. You want a professional? Pay for one.

If I have something expensive, people need to comment on it as if I got it by stealing. Do you interrogate anyone else you deal with for wearing an expensive watch? I didn't think so.

I should make less of a profit because you can't afford what you want. I should sell you the $29,000 car for $25,000 because you can't afford what you want. Get this all the time too. People need to learn LEATHER INTERIORS AND SUNROOFS ARE NOT NEEDS THEY ARE WANTS. SEPARATE THE TWO.

Don't even get me started on people bringing their kids into the showroom and letting them run all over the place like it's a damn daycare center. But this isn't limited to dealerships, lately people seem to have forgotten that there are all kinds of places where children aren't wanted or welcome. Never mind the fact that these people often have obnoxious little howler moneys for kids.

I could go on, but I need my sleep so I can go deal with my window licking sales staff and the arrogant prick customers (who are probably decent people before and after they walk through the door) tomorrow.

I will make salespeople out of them if it kills me. They may be tards, but they're tards with potential.

Are the R32's out yet?

No. VW says December, which usually means march-june. But they actually delivered the Touareg and NB Convertible on time, so maybe they'll start to make a habit of it.

I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Boy have I got you fooled. I'm actually a self centered bitch. At least I'm honest.

Yeah. She just hates her underling salespeople.

I d not hate them all. I fired the only one that I hated as soon as he gave me an iron clad lawsuit proof reason to. They merely annoy the [censored] out of me

Example:

While I was enjoying my first morning without the most offensive idiot with my assistant (the poor man, I don't know how he puts up with me) looking out the window, I see the slutty receptionist (this girl looks like a streetwalker no matter what she's wearing. it's sad to look like such a washed up whore at 22) stop short in the middle of route1 in her canyonero. Two of my tards plowed right into her with their demos.



Can someone please explain to me why I like my job?

But how's the service department ? My VW salesman was great but the service is such [censored] it makes me want to sell the car.

I really don't understand these types of people. When I buy a new car, I go out of my way to be nice and helpful. People simply do not respond to being talked down to. I mean, If all you want is a better deal on a car, do they really think that a salesperson is going to be more willing to do what they can if they're rude? I consistently get better deals than most people I know and the worst thing I've ever said to a car salesman is "i'll have to think about it, I may be back, can I please have your card?" If I feel like he was trying to rape me, no problem, I just don't go back.

The only time I ever got really irate at a car dealership was dealing with the service dept at Ford. The drivers side window started coming off the tracks. It happened once, I took the door apart. It happened again a month later, I fixed it again. It happened two days later, I took it to the dealership. I was 3 months out of warranty (with only 10,000 miles on my car). I was informed that it would cost ~$600 to fix, at which point I said "You've got to be F^&*ing kidding me, all you have to do is glue the retention clip back on?!" I was informed that that wasn't the way the manual said to fix it, I had to replace the entire window mech. "You people are out of your F&*(ing minds. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'll never buy another Ford as long as I live." His reply: "You're right, they screwed the pooch on this one. See, they USED to have this pin drilled through the glass, so this never happened, but now, I guessthey decided it's cheaper to glue them instead."

At this point, I was feeling a little better. At least the guy agreed with me. It was the idiots at corporate that made this brilliant decision. I took it to a body shop that a friend of mine owns, and they had the window gued back in in les than 10 minutes. Hasn't even rattled funny since.

It still burns me that they were willing to stick me for $600 just to save 25¢ worth of cotter pins at the factory.

People need to learn LEATHER INTERIORS AND SUNROOFS ARE NOT NEEDS THEY ARE WANTS. SEPARATE THE TWO.

After owning cloth interior cars for 4 years, then getting leather in my new Saturn, it is now a must for me. Why? Well Colorado always has dry as hell air, and getting out of a cloth interior always led to nasty shocks. I swore it was only a matter of time before I would blow up a gas station by forgetting to discharge the static before grabbing the gas pump.

To prove there are at least some nice people out there, I have had 2 seperate sales people comment on how much they liked dealing with me, and one made the comment that I could have easially been elsewhere buying a more expensive vehicle. I mostly knew what I wanted, I didn't haggle over much, and in general I was very nice. I felt it was the least I could do for how nicely they treated me.

Of course, I have an interesting test for any company I deal with. I see how much they pay attention to appearance without talking to someone. I am rarley in anything more then a t-shirt and jeans. If someone won't even approach me in a store, I deem that store not worth my time. The Ford dealership did this, and lost 2 car sales now due to it. American Furniture Warehouse will not get the chance to sell me a house load of things due to them ignoring me now on 3 seperate attempts. And a local high end home entertainment store lost all my interest to Soundtrack when they also ignored me while inquiring about high end equipment.

On the other hand, Voelker Research will have several more computer sales from me, Soundtrack will probably be where I buy a high end HDTV next year, and Saturn will continue to take care of my car needs until I outgrow their price range. (Or can afford insurance on anything better).

Overall, the best transaction I probably ever have had was buying my motorcycle. That sales person was trying really hard to do anything for me, since he didn't have to do his job. I simply walked in, asked if they had a Black Suzuki Bandit, and he led me to one. I sat on it, and intentionally interrupted his sales speech with "Here is the check I intend to fill out to buy this bike. How do we get this process started?". He in turn got me $300 off my accessories in their store, even though it was a promotion that had ended a week before.

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

BMW was paying for that wear and tear, as well as covering the lost profit on that car. Most manufacturers do not.

I think that may be his point.

When you are marketing a premium brand, your cost structure is designed to include niceties like covering this kind of depreciation on a few upscale models.
That is not your primary concern.
Your primary concern is to (1) retain your existing customer base as happy return customers since you worked so hard to get them in the first place (note John already owns one BMW M3; they'd love to sell him another someday), and (2) to plant the seeds of desire in the minds of future potential customers so that when they get the money someday, they spend it with you, and not a competitor. They're in it for the long haul.

A buddy of mine used to test-drive Porsches in high school. They let him. They were building his desire.
Today he owns 2 or 3 Porsches at last count. Did his old hometown dealer from back in the day get the sale? Of course not, he lives somewhere else now.
But the *brand* got the sale(s). What goes around comes around if you're patient enough.

The more companies figure this out, the better off they'll be.

Since VW/Porsche/Audi are kind of the same, would a straight VW dealership have let him test-drive with no hope of a sale? Doubtful. Because VW is not the "premium" brand and it has a different sales strategy and cost model. "Buy it now, or get out of my way so I can sell it to somebody else today." A fact of which you seem to be quite aware.

Two told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story

Ironic that this happens most often on the pricier models.

Sorry, but before I drop high five figures on some wheels, I'm going to have to take it for a spin first, no matter how much the auto magazines rave about it.
Wouldn't anybody?
Apparently not. I think the initial sales of limited allocation models are all to people who want to be seen in it, no matter how crappy it drives. That, and people that have enough money to take a flyer on it, or who are so devoted to the brand that they *just* *know* it's going to be good.

One time I called all over to dozens of dealerships looking for a particular car.
I found one at a dealer 50 miles away, just like I wanted.
I drove out there and he wouldn't let me testdrive it or even sit in it unless I committed to buying it.

C'mon buddy, you think I blew two days calling the world and all morning driving out here just to yank you around? Can you just unlock it so I can sit in it?
I brought my checkbook and my papers and I'm ready to buy if it drives OK.
Nope, not unless you buy it. (By the way, this was for a $30,000 car, not for some exotic ubercar.)
Perhaps you'd like to look at one of the other cars on our lot.

I think not.

It's been 10 years, and I still have never set foot in that dealership again!

I have an interesting test for any company I deal with. I see how much they pay attention to appearance without talking to someone

There was an interesting inversion in the "ignore the scruffy bastard effect" in Silicon Valley during the boom years.

The nastier I looked, the more salespeople were cozying up to me.
They assumed I was some nouveau riche dot-commer taking time out from his 20-hour coding days to blow a big wad of cash.

Um, those days appear to be gone.
But people around here still know that to judge on appearance is a very very dangerous thing in an area where those who still have lots of disposable income look just like everyone else (unlike in LA, where even the nearly homeless spend a shocking amount on their wardrobe).

This is the way forwards, definitely - appearance should be irrelevant. Porsche lost out on selling my brother a 911 because he turned up in jeans and a t-shirt. They were rude and uninterested, so he showed them the cheque he was going to give them and went down the road to the TVR garage, where they gave him great service and sold him a very nice Chimaera, which he delighted in driving past the Porsche garage every day on his way to work

I tend to do the same, just dress casually and be polite. If they are interested in selling and not just being snobby then I am interested.

Ah, here and here are the photos I was trying to find yesterday.

Gareth

Ouch!

Any dealer will tell you that Saab and Volvos are indestructible, what's a bit of salt in the works? All those E-Types that sank in the Suez canal got back on the road - your car is safer, submerged in the channel than parked in Leeds or Manchester!

Any dealer will tell you that Saab and Volvos are indestructible, what's a bit of salt in the works?

Yeah, but the ship sank on its side, so that's a shedload of panels that are going to need the dents taken out.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/4/163150/0581

shedload of panels that are going to need the dents taken out.

No problem, knock on one of a thousand lock-ups round here and wave a few fivers, and you're in business!

Liking your job is almost prerequsite to doing it right. I am sure it shows in your dealership's results.

I have witnesed the most dramatic changes in car buying experience here in Croatia:

Some 25 years ago, when I was buying my first car (a crappy Fiat-128 knockoff called Zastava-101 (from "Crvana Zastava" ("Red Flag"), producers of laughing stock Yugo)) there were perhaps 5 places in Zagreb when one could buy a car, after spending months in waiting list. The salespeople were behaving as if they were doing you enormous favor, and showrooms did not exist.

20 years and one change in economic system later, I set up to investigate buying a Ranault Twingo. I went into a dealership (also conducting 'faded jeans and T-shirt test') and questioned a poor guy there about models, options etc for half an hour, then thanked, said I would think it over and left. A week later I received a letter from the dealership inviting me for a test drive. When I appeared, the guy recognised me and appologised for not having a test car with exact options I was interested in (in particular, canvas roof). To make a long story short, they made a sale (and subsequent one, when we bought a fully loaded Laguna as a company car; now we are considering the new Espace). They invited me on celebration of moving into new premises, and still send me birthday cards. As the result, Renault in general and that dealership in particular have quite an edge over competition in my eyes (other things being close to equal).

Never mind the salespeople, it's the service departments that drive me bananas, I have a simple rule, never take out an extended warranty, never use the dealership once the warranty expires. In the near 40 years that I've been a car owner, it's the area of the operation that hasn't improved one bit: However much you think, I've got a better executive model, the service will be perfect, right up to a Bentley, you can assume it's rubbish. I want my cars competently serviced, not competently valeted - their are plenty of people around in little garages who are more than willing to do the work competently, 1/3 rd cheaper and make an effort, rather than just swap units.
Sorry to rant, but it happened again last week: simple job, two nights with a courtesy car, recovered twice, because they hadn't got the diagnosis right and returned the third day with a dented wing. And to make matters worst, as is the norm, I was lied to by the receptionist.
These places are run for the benefit of the staff, not the customer.

Never mind the salespeople, it's the service departments that drive me bananas

This is precisely the reason I want to replace my BMW. I've had nothing but agony with these "service advisors" whose job seems to be to convince you that the problems with your car are really just psychological disturbances in your head.

I've had nothing but agony with these "service advisors" whose job seems to be to convince you that the problems with your car are really just psychological disturbances in your head.

Amen to that. I've had to calm my irate wife down more than once because she felt like mechanics were telling her a noise she was hearing didn't exist.

I'll second the shock you get from cloth seats. I get shocked every single time I step out of my car and close the door. I've started purposely walking around the door and closing it by pushing on the glass (which then gets all smudged). But I don't mind cloth otherwise. It gets really hot around here in the summer.

As for car buying goes, I had a semi-difficult time with my own. When I bought my van, it was one of the 3 most popular cars at the time (along with the PT Cruiser and the S2000). All were selling for WELL over MSRP, and could not be negotiated. The local Honda dealership was selling Odysseys for $3000 over, and the S2000 for $7000 over. As far as I had heard, Honda did not like this since it develops bad will with customers (I have no idea if this is true).

I called every single Honda dealership in the northern Virginia area. Every one was charging $2500-3000 over MSRP, and most didn't have the model I was looking for, since they were so popular. Finally, I started calling all the dealerships in Maryland. After about 20 more calls I found a nice dealership about 2 hours from my house that was selling the car AT MSRP. My dad, who was a car salesman during law school (yes, car salesman* and a lawyer!), hated not being able to negotiate the price, but since it was the ideal vehicle for me at the time, we went with it. I certainly felt less screwed than I could have been at any other dealership in the DC Metro area.

Although, even with all that demand, my local dealer let us drive the car.

Anyway, my point is that sellers' markets suck when shifted that much. All I know is that the dealership I bought at got a good amount of business when I went on the Edmunds message boards and told all the DC area folks where they could buy their car for $3000 less than anywhere else.

* my father was the first person to sell a Toyota Celica in the tristate area. he also said he made more money selling cars than he did for the first 10 years he was a lawyer

I'll second the shock you get from cloth seats. I get shocked every single time I step out of my car and close the door. I've started purposely walking around the door and closing it by pushing on the glass (which then gets all smudged).

The car that's shocked me the most was my mom's '84 or so Cadillac Seville, and it was all leather. One time, in the middle of winter, I got out of the car, and it shocked me when I brushed past the door with my shoulder, through an insulated leather jacket. It left a pinhole in the leather. I've never been shocked so hard in my life. I finally learned to grab the door frame before setting foot on the ground, and it never shocked me once I started doing that.

After owning cloth interior cars for 4 years, then getting leather in my new Saturn, it is now a must for me.

Ditto. Not specifically because I like the way it looks or feels (and it does look and feel good) but more because it's more practical. It withstands tears better than cloth seats, and is easier to clean than cloth seats, especially when you spill a Biggie drink in the back. It's a must for any tripmobile.

>>> At least I'm honest.

Which was one of my points. It's this whole "pretending to be my best friend while looking for a way to get over on me" thing that I don't appreciate (or really even understand).

Actually, whether providing service to potential customers is a "waste of time" for people depends on how they define their jobs.

If John was treated well it probably fostered several future deals. If someone sees John's '98 and asks him about new M3s, which dealer will he refer them to? (Hint: not the one that requires deposits for test drives.) And when it comes time for John to get serious himself, well there you go.

OK, Heather. Since you took time to rebut me so thoroughly, I'm going to counter some of your points (see the other post about not knowing when discretion is the better part of valor; that's me!).

>>> All standards of common decency often get checked at the door.

While I certainly don't check mine at the door, I've been to enough dealerships (~100 over 26 years, buying ~20 cars) to know that some people do that. But your assumption that they wouldn't adopt that attitude elsewhere may be false; I see the same rude people hassling store clerks & McDonalds' counter workers.

>>> Do people tell you every day how much money you're entitled to make?

Not every day, just twice a year at review time.
Can't speak for others, but I'm not trying to dictate your profit; I'm saying "Here's what it's worth to me. If you think you can hold out and get more for it, by all means do." I have more respect for a dealer who sends me packing (like Lexus did), then one that jerks me around (like Toyota did).

>>> Oh wait, I forgot, places like jewelers, clothing stores and optometrists are entitled to 200-400% markup on their product without argument.

Uh, survey says [insert BUZZER noise]. Example: Recently bought my girlfriend $9375 worth of jewelry. Paid <$4000. Does that mean the pieces were cheap, or worse, she's not worth paying more for? Of course not. It just means I'm cheap and don't always agree that what you're selling is worth as much to me as you think it should be worth to me.

>>> You want a professional? Pay for one.

This, I can totally get behind. I just happen to not need one. But back in the days I did, they were still hard to find.

>>> Do you interrogate anyone else you deal with for wearing an expensive watch? I didn't think so.

Doesn't matter what kind of saleperson you are, I'll admit it makes me think in the back of my mind: "She must've gotten that by jacking some customers. She should dial back the ostentation." But I wouldn't say it out loud; that would be rude!

>>> LEATHER INTERIORS AND SUNROOFS ARE NOT NEEDS THEY ARE WANTS

Which is why neither of my cars has either. Of course, when I walked into an Audi dealership seeking a car without them, they laughed and asked for $2000 before they'd use their locater to find one so equipped. "What, do you think, we do that for our health?" (Instead, I special-ordered -- at no extra charge -- a BMW from the factory w/cloth interior, no cruise control, manual A/C, no sunroof, and no folding seats. Of course, the sport package was an absolute must-have.)

>>> who are probably decent people before and after they walk through the door

As I'm sure you and (some of) your staff are, as well.

manual A/C

What's manual A/C? A punkah wallah in the back seat?

Peter

>>> never take out an extended warranty, never use the dealership once the warranty expires.

I'd go one further: never use a dealer for service unless it's being paid for by somebody else who won't reimburse you for using an independent mechanic. And also: don't feel compelled to service it at the dealer from which you bought it, as the goals of the 2 departments are 180 degrees opposed.

What's manual A/C?

It's one of those older AC's which is controlled by a knob (colder-warmer), in contrast to those new AC's which are controlled by digitally setting the exact temperature you want in the car.

I finally learned to grab the door frame before setting foot on the ground, and it never shocked me once I started doing that.

Does that really help ? Mmmm, I must start doing that too then. I get shocked all the time by my car.
I now also get out of my car the way Dignan describes : closing the door by pushing on the glass window.
Of course, this doesn't always solve the problem. It has happened to me a couple of times now that I got out of the car, and closed the cardoor via the glass. No shock, perfect. But then when I inserted my key into the keyhole of the front door of my house (metal on metal), I got one helluva shock.

In my mom's car, I always figured that it was the car building up static, as I couldn't figure out a way that I could really be generating it inside the car. So I figured that if I got out of the car, then touched it, it got grounded through my body. But if I touched it before and while I got out, that my body was enough of a capacitor to slowly drain that electricity to ground instead of doing it instantaneously. But that's pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo, even though it made sense to me. Regardless, it always seemed to work. You can give it a shot; it couldn't hurt. Well, at least not any more than it currently (no pun intended) does.

Although IANASEE (Static Electricity Engineer), I did notice shortly after replacing a set of tires that the amount I was being shocked changed dramatically. I don't see how just sitting there I could possibly generate the charge I've gotten at times.
-Zeke

I did notice shortly after replacing a set of tires that the amount I was being shocked changed dramatically.

Right. Some tires have a high degree of conductivity, others do not. Depends on what compounds are in the rubber. It's quite common for a set of aftermarket tires to increase the amount of static shock you get on leaving the vehicle.

I've gone through a lot of trials and tribulations trying to get rid of the static problems in my car and don't have a solution except for the "be touching the metal of the car as you're getting out instead of touching it after you're already out".

Which, by the way, works because the soles of your shoes transmit the built-up static charge slowly over a large flat area (the soles of your feet) instead of quickly through the tiny point of your first touch with the car's metal upon exiting. The trick is that you have to be touching the metal when the soles of your shoes hit the ground.

Buying a car in the US seems a bit different to here - servicing it sounds appallingly the same.

I never put the salesperson under pressure, nor can I remember them doing so to me: Range Rover have given me new models for the day, with a picnic hamper on the back seat, and also for the weekend, as have Mazda: "To take it for a good run": Jaguar brought the X type demonstrators round to the office for my guys to take out. MG are regularly offering to drop off the new model at my house, whilst they service the old one - but it's out of warranty and I'm not interested in the new model.
The only time in recent years that the salesman came with us was when I brought a Saxo for my daughter.
Of course, we still have it that the one they can get on the road the quickest has a spec. way over what you want, but I start early and persevere!

Post deleted by bodybag

Sorry, wasn't trying to open a can of worms, just commenting on how entertaining/funny I thought it was. My bad I guess?

I have a feeling you're about to get a few more suggestions for a new bbs alias.

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Guess what? In the US at least (can't speak for the Brittish, I live for Brittish customers) the customer created most of this attitude..... arrogant prick customers (who are probably decent people before and after they walk through the door) tomorrow.

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Do you think people undergo a personality transplant when they walk into your showroom? We have been conditioned by years of dealing with wretched car salesman. Blaming customers - who don't act like this in other situations - is absurd.

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Do people tell you every day how much money you're entitled to make? Half the people I deal with in a day have determined I'm entitled to no more than 1-3% gross markup on my product, no matter what the demand for it. We can make it up in volume. There 's a limitless number of people buying a new car in any given month. And our rent, electric, and labor is free. Try telling this to any other merchant. Oh wait, I forgot, places like jewelers, clothing stores and optometrists are entitled to 200-400% markup on their product without argument.

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You'd avoid this bullshit as well as most of the confrontational attitude you get from customers if you'd just post a final sales price and eliminate the negotiating. Everyone knows the dealerships goal is to prey on ignorance and confusion as much as possible to extract the highest price from the consumer. Fine, you're entitled to do business that way but expect the consumers to consider you the enemy. If I had to bargain with my optomotrist then I would consider him an adversary, too.

-Dylan

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Nice. Waste the man's time when you have no intention of buying anything. You may have cost him a deal by doing this. But what do you care, car salesmen arn't entitled to make a living because they're all assholes, right?

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I went into a dealership once to drive an M3. I was young and the M3 was probably out of my price range. However, the salesman was an [censored] and I walked out. If the salesman had been accomodating he had an excellent opportunity to sell me a less expensive new or used BMW.

Some salespeople are smart enough to recognize that a good relationship may pay dividends later.

-Dylan

msaeger:

But how's the service department ? My VW salesman was great but the service is such [censored] it makes me want to sell the car.

The sad truth is that while it's a hell of a lot better than all the other local dealers (we have loaner cars and shuttle buses, no one else in a 30 mile radius does, and you can usually get an appointment in less than a week) but it's not what it can/should be. Partially because the service manager is about as useful as tits on a bull, but should be gone any day now, but primarily because VW can't get their supply lines straight and has some mighty [censored] up methods for attempting to move the brand image upward (ignition coil packs and window regulators anyone?).

lectric:

It was the idiots at corporate that made this brilliant decision.

It still burns me that they were willing to stick me for $600 just to save 25¢ worth of cotter pins at the factory.

The manufacturers make entirely too many decisions like this that dealership employees suffer for. They aren't the ones who have to deal with the irate customer, so why would they care? The kicker is, if a dealer decides to start making mechanically sound, but not by the bok repairs, manufacturers yank back a lot of money from them, as this is a violation of the franchise agreement. Our Audi shop got charged back $1,600,000 this past march for sending out a few thousand happy customers with non standard repairs. It sucks for everyone except the manufacturer.

Drakino:

I have had 2 seperate sales people comment on how much they liked dealing with me,

Because it's rare. Don't get me wrong, I have customers that are an absolute joy to deal with. But they're not the norm, especially not in a shitty economy. While I'm sure you're nice to people in other service fields, they're used to being treated with a certain level of respect, so it's not something often commented on.

The jeans and t-shirt bit I get quite frequently too, it's often where you can easily pick out who knows what they're doing. I actually got someone fired in Neiman Marcus once when I was 17 for this. Nasty whenever I asked for something, followed me and my friend around like we were shoplifting, but was more than happy to run up to take my drivers license out of my hand (back when they used to let you use that instead of a physical credit card if you had an account there) and get her 5%. I had her call up one of the salesmen from the mens department because I refused to deal with her. He called the GM, he was mortified.

bonzi:

Liking your job is almost prerequsite to doing it right. I am sure it shows in your dealership's results.

Precisely. Except for an abysmal first month (hey, I had absolutely no management experience at the time, and was only there for 3 weeks of it), our sales are more than double what they were last year. Most of the area is down at least 20%. Feels good to get those faxes on the first of the month, especially since I was hired because no one else was willing to take the job and my name came up in conversation with the glowing review of "She's difficult to deal with, late for work almost every day, possibly insane, has no experience but she does get things done." from my old boss.

DiGNAN17:

The local Honda dealership was selling Odysseys for $3000 over,...Although, even with all that demand, my local dealer let us drive the car.

Most Honda dealerships did up here too, even though they wouldn't let you touch an S2000 until at the very least, money was discussed and it was down to "if I like it I'm buying it now" or they aready had a deposit subject to test drive. Around here, they both went for $3000 over list at that time. The difference being that people rarely go out and test drive a minivan who have no intention of buying a minivan. They do this often with sportscars and SUVs.

several other people:

Re: on test driving cars, and annoying car salesme [re: Drakino]
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After owning cloth interior cars for 4 years, then getting leather in my new Saturn, it is now a must for me.

Ditto. Not specifically because I like the way it looks or feels

This was not stated right. I should have better explained my gripe. More like this:
A women comes in (I have never had this happen to me personally with a man) and can realistically afford a base model car if I sell it short, which she likes how it drives and it suits her needs. She wants the one that is $4000 more and has those options. She expects ME to sell the car at a loss because she NEEDS THOSE THINGS. Then I'm a bitch because I won't sell it at a loss. The worst part is when she refuses to leave after I've told her there's nothing more I can do for her, and continues to argue. It gets much more irritating when she comes back in three weeks later (most likely she's been to every dealer in the area), stating she's ready to buy, and once again refuses to accept that I'm not selling things at a loss.

And I won't buy a car without a sunroof myself. I just don't expect someone else to pick up the tab for what I want.


I really do have several more things to say and things to answer, but I'm falling asleep .

I have a TDI so it's window regulators and maf sensors.

The manufacturers make entirely too many decisions like this that dealership employees suffer for. They aren't the ones who have to deal with the irate customer, so why would they care? The kicker is, if a dealer decides to start making mechanically sound, but not by the bok repairs, manufacturers yank back a lot of money from them, as this is a violation of the franchise agreement. Our Audi shop got charged back $1,600,000 this past march for sending out a few thousand happy customers with non standard repairs. It sucks for everyone except the manufacturer.

But why don't the manufacturers understand that I am much more likely to buy another brand of car next-go-round because I feel like they shipped a purposely inferior product? I mean, I understand that they don't want to make a car that will last for 25 years and 500,000 miles, but come on... It's that kind of attitude from corporate giants that makes me nauseous.

I've become of the opinion that dealership repair shops are only good for one thing. Getting an EXTREMELY high estimate on fixing something to give your insurance company, so you can pocket half the check plus the deductable when you take it to a body shop instead to get it repaired. Not to mention that a body shop owned and run by some guy is much more interested in making you happy than any dealership repair shop ever is.

I once got into a head on colision in a jeep cherokee sport. Took it to the dealership to let them fight it out with my insurance company. After 2 months and $12.5k of the insurance company's money, I got my $14k Jeep back. I was told that they drove it around for a week-end to make sure everything was working OK. They give me the keys, I hop in, and I try to put the seat back. It was bent to an 80º angle TOWARD the steering wheel, leaned all the way back. Put the seat forward, and it was more like 45º. There was no WAY they had driven it even around the block. I call attention to it and the service manager said, and I quote, "Oops". He then jumped in the back seat while I was watching, wrapped both hands around the front seat, and proceeded to yank it back into some semblance of the correct angle. Let's just say I was not getting warm fuzzies all over. Tthe car never acted properly again. All told, they spent close to $15k to fix a $14k car, plus they rented me a car for 2.5 mos. Why they didn't just total it from the start I'll never understand.

Ahh. here's where this thread transitions from "car dealers" to "insurance companies." Let a new round of belly-aching begin!

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"insurance companies."

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Money Grabbin' Bastards!

Oh, come on, how could they ever expect you would actually have an accident? They base your premium on the assumption that you won't, it's people like you and I that cock it up!

Okay, maybe. I'm just reeling from an insurance quote on my 172 from screentrade. £6500 to insure a £12000 car!

Trick was, the accident wasn't my fault. My insurance company didn't pay a dime, his did though, through the nose. The guy was 80-something and could barely see over the wheel. I was going straight through a green light, and he just decided it was clear to turn, without looking to see if anyone was coming the other direction. It took all the skills I had developed playing Pole Position to keep from outright killing the guy.

£6500 to insure a £12000 car!


Well... do keep in mind that for that price they are also insuring you for when you run your £12000 car into that $350,000 Ferrari...

tanstaafl.

And don't forget, people aren't going to invest in the insurance company, if the shares don't show a profit

But they also did that when I was insuring my bag of bolts before, at a considerably reduced price. I'm sure it could've made just as big a dent in said Ferrari, and that's without the fancy ABS and traction control of the new one!

All the more reason to insure with a non-profit "true" mutual or cooperative. And did I mention credit-union advantages?