On Saturday, I decided to go do some test driving, but I first called ahead to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time.

- I called three local Volvo dealers about the S60-R. Two told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story. A third took my name and number, saying they expected one would be coming in September and I could drive it then (assuming it doesn't get purchased first).

- I called three Infiniti dealers about the G35 Coupe. Two, again, told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, complete with all kinds of bad attitude. A third said they had a G35 Coupe, automatic, and a G35 Sedan, manual, and that I could try both to get a sense of what they might be like together. I left my name and number there, saying to call me when they get the car I might eventually like.

- The first Mazda dealer I called had a whole mess of RX-8's in stock. Sure, come on in and test drive it.

Since that Mazda dealer was also right next door to the Acura dealer, I went and drove a manual TSX and a manual RX-8, one after the other.

First, the TSX. I've always had 5-speeds, so six gears took a little getting used to. Sixth gear was down and just to the right of fifth, which took some work to get comfortable with. Nonetheless, the car was actually quite nice to drive. Humming along at 4000rpm didn't feel any different than 2000rpm. It's a very smooth engine. Unlike my current BMW six cylinder, this engine requires you to get your gear selection right. Even at 80mph on the freeway, there's a massive difference between 5th and 6th gears. (5th is great, 6th has no torque). Also, there was absolutely zero hint of any torque steer. None at all.

I also got a chance to play my standard "stereo torture" CD on the stereo. I have to give Acura a big thumbs down there. The bass goes low, which is nice and all, but it's boomy and the midrange/treble is just awful. If I bought this car, I'd immediately run out and drop a pile of money on good speakers. Performance is definitely above the bar, modulo the need to choose your gears wisely. Besides, it's just a Honda. In a year, there will be five vendors offering bolt-on supercharger kits. As I was discussing the car's need for aftermarket performance mods, the sheepish salesman shoved a piece of paper at me saying I needed to sign this waiver acknowledging that I was responsible if I damaged the car.

The Mazda RX-8 is quite an intriguing car, technically, but it doesn't live up to the hype once you get in. I bumped my head every time I tried getting in or out of the car. My (5 foot tall) fiancée fit into the back seat just fine, but you'd have to be on crack to say that it could fit larger people better than any other cramped sportscar. When you drive the thing, it's fun, but not actually all that fast. I was happily revving it up to 9000rpm, setting off the over-rev bell (and freaking the salesman), but it didn't really have much pull. My Z3 undeniably out-accelerates the RX-8. Also, the RX-8 makes a bunch of noise when you spool up the engine, versus the more mild-mannered (but every bit as fast) TSX. The transmission and clutch were wonderful. Both the TSX and RX-8 have beautiful short-throw 6-speed transmissions. My fiancée reports that my shifts were much jerkier on the RX-8 than on the TSX, although Mazdas are known to take some getting used to. On the RX-8, I ended up in 4th gear several times when I was trying to hit 6th. At least the engine has plenty of headroom so you won't blow it up or anything.

The RX-8 has a mean blind-spot from the driver-side B-pillar, whereas the TSX has fantastic visibility, all around. When I went to do a 60-0 panic stop (on an otherwise empty side street, giving plenty of warning to my passengers), the tires squealed and I didn't feel any of the usual ABS pumping. Very disturbing. The TSX, for contrast, performed exactly as you'd expect.

Also, the RX-8 trunk, with donut spare tire hanging from the roof, is astonishingly small. It's more like what you'd expect from a two-seat roadster rather than a four seat / four door car. The TSX, as you'd expect, has a massive trunk, plus the back seats nicely fold down giving you tons of continuous storage space if you want it.

Lastly, the Mazda/Bose "AudioPilot" stereo sounds remarkably good for a factory stereo. It's nowhere near a Volvo stereo, but I wouldn't be racing out to replace the factory speakers. Unfortunately, there's just no way to replace the factory head unit nor to wedge in an empeg. Also, when were listening to the stereo, with the car idling in the parking lot and A/C running (this is Texas in August, after all), the engine idle was really rough, noticably bumping us around in the car.

Next up, I want to test drive the ricer-boy cars (Subaru WRX STi and/or Mitsubishi Lancer Evo) and the Volkswagen Golf R32. At some point, I may even get up the courage to check out the Pontiac GTO. I've always hated GM cars, but this one was designed by Holden, so it might be better. I might even need to humor robricc and test drive a Saab.

Current short list: Lexus IS-300, Acura TSX
Eliminated: Mazda RX-8

There's an S60R to be test driven over here in NC, but that's too far away for you (Texas, right?). Besides, it's probably too late to get your hands on one.

it's probably too late

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on whether Volvo stops production or keeps it going. The last time they did an R car, according to something I read on the web, they ended up producing significantly more cars than they'd originally planned. Besides, I wouldn't even think of signing on the dotted line until I hear from you about how the empeg integration goes.

> I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story.

> I was happily revving it up to 9000rpm, setting off the over-rev bell (and freaking the salesman)...

Hmm, and I wonder why dealers aren't letting people test-drive expensive cars first?

Yeah, well, it's not considered abuse for an RX-8 to rev that high. It's not like you've got pistons to smash into anything. I wouldn't dare do that to a normal engine. Besides, the RX-8 has a specific set of fuel injectors that don't even start until something like 7500rpm. Gotta test those out, you know.

they expected one would be coming in September and I could drive it then (assuming it doesn't get purchased first).

...or the boat sinks on the way

Gareth

Good luck getting an STi to test drive. I think you'll get the same response as the S60-R. Not sure about the Evo... but i'd imagine that would he hard to get a test drive on as well. Are the R32's out yet??

Are the R32's out yet??

Don't know about the US, but saw the first one at the dealership I frequent about 6 months ago... (Sweden)

/Michael

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.
Present company not included. I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Many, most, all, everytime, always. Generalizations... suck, for lack of a better word.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

Present company not included. I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Yeah. She just hates her underling salespeople.

The last time they did an R car, according to something I read on the web, they ended up producing significantly more cars than they'd originally planned.

Yup. And this time, they already doubled it, and those are the numbers I'm thinking of. I could be wrong, though.

I have found that most car dealerships are absolute arses, I ended up buying my new car from one of those car supermarkets. Firstly the salesman actually called me back, which Renault Manchester never did. I think they look at me and think 'what a scruffy bastard', shame really, 'cos I'm a scruffy bastard with 13,000 quid to spend

My boss was shopping for a new car recently and found BMW had the best attitude - this was surprising as I have heard a lot of bad stories, except perhaps for Mercedes (this being the funniest). At the VW garage He wanted to test-drive the Golf VR6 but he got possibly as much as about two minutes behind the wheel before the salesman asked him to turn around and head back! At BMW they handed him the keys to a 328ci and asked him to bring it back "before we close" - and that was it! Needless to say he bought one, but I think he had decided already...

Gareth

>> Many, most, all, everytime, always. Generalizations... suck, for lack of a better word.

In general, I agree.

And when I went over to my local Morgan/TVR dealer, I got the keys to the Morgan 4/4 without any problems. OK, he did reverse it out of the showroom before jumping out and telling me to enjoy myself. Well, I did.

That's a very different experience than I've had, but as others in the thread have noticed, maybe BMW is just nicer about it.

In fact a year or two ago an ex-gf and I sporatically went over that BMW place out 59 towards Sugarland and acted like we were in the market for one of the (then) new bodystyle M3s. We both got to take it out on the freeway (with the salesman.)

John

...and acted like we were in the market for one of the (then) new bodystyle M3s. We both got to take it out on the freeway (with the salesman.)

Nice. Waste the man's time when you have no intention of buying anything. You may have cost him a deal by doing this. But what do you care, car salesmen arn't entitled to make a living because they're all assholes, right?


This is exactly why so many places won't let out a particularly desirable vehicle on a test drive without a deposit.

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

BMW was paying for that wear and tear, as well as covering the lost profit on that car. Most manufacturers do not.

It's that many/most dealers are customer-despising jackasses.

Guess what? In the US at least (can't speak for the Brittish, I live for Brittish customers) the customer created most of this attitude.

All standards of common decency often get checked at the door.

How many othjer stores do you walk into and speak to the sales help as if they're something unpleasant stuck to the bottom of your shoe? If the drug store closes at 9, do you get pissed at the pharmacist for not filling your prescription at 9:15 when you walked into a store with the lights off? People do this [censored] in dealerships all the time. And then get pissed off when we politely tell them we're closed. Aparently, we're not entitled to have lives.

Do people tell you every day how much money you're entitled to make? Half the people I deal with in a day have determined I'm entitled to no more than 1-3% gross markup on my product, no matter what the demand for it. We can make it up in volume. There 's a limitless number of people buying a new car in any given month. And our rent, electric, and labor is free.
Try telling this to any other merchant. Oh wait, I forgot, places like jewelers, clothing stores and optometrists are entitled to 200-400% markup on their product without argument.

"This guy's a moron but he's cheaper than you. I expect your level of service but at his price." I should be allowed to spit in your face for this kind of insult, but it's aparently OK when you sell cars. You do your job well, but should be paid the same as the asshole who really doesn't care. If you feel this is OK, you deserve to buy your car for someone like that. You want a professional? Pay for one.

If I have something expensive, people need to comment on it as if I got it by stealing. Do you interrogate anyone else you deal with for wearing an expensive watch? I didn't think so.

I should make less of a profit because you can't afford what you want. I should sell you the $29,000 car for $25,000 because you can't afford what you want. Get this all the time too. People need to learn LEATHER INTERIORS AND SUNROOFS ARE NOT NEEDS THEY ARE WANTS. SEPARATE THE TWO.

Don't even get me started on people bringing their kids into the showroom and letting them run all over the place like it's a damn daycare center. But this isn't limited to dealerships, lately people seem to have forgotten that there are all kinds of places where children aren't wanted or welcome. Never mind the fact that these people often have obnoxious little howler moneys for kids.

I could go on, but I need my sleep so I can go deal with my window licking sales staff and the arrogant prick customers (who are probably decent people before and after they walk through the door) tomorrow.

I will make salespeople out of them if it kills me. They may be tards, but they're tards with potential.

Are the R32's out yet?

No. VW says December, which usually means march-june. But they actually delivered the Touareg and NB Convertible on time, so maybe they'll start to make a habit of it.

I'm sure our resident Volkswagon dealer is of exceptional character.

Boy have I got you fooled. I'm actually a self centered bitch. At least I'm honest.

Yeah. She just hates her underling salespeople.

I d not hate them all. I fired the only one that I hated as soon as he gave me an iron clad lawsuit proof reason to. They merely annoy the [censored] out of me

Example:

While I was enjoying my first morning without the most offensive idiot with my assistant (the poor man, I don't know how he puts up with me) looking out the window, I see the slutty receptionist (this girl looks like a streetwalker no matter what she's wearing. it's sad to look like such a washed up whore at 22) stop short in the middle of route1 in her canyonero. Two of my tards plowed right into her with their demos.



Can someone please explain to me why I like my job?

But how's the service department ? My VW salesman was great but the service is such [censored] it makes me want to sell the car.

I really don't understand these types of people. When I buy a new car, I go out of my way to be nice and helpful. People simply do not respond to being talked down to. I mean, If all you want is a better deal on a car, do they really think that a salesperson is going to be more willing to do what they can if they're rude? I consistently get better deals than most people I know and the worst thing I've ever said to a car salesman is "i'll have to think about it, I may be back, can I please have your card?" If I feel like he was trying to rape me, no problem, I just don't go back.

The only time I ever got really irate at a car dealership was dealing with the service dept at Ford. The drivers side window started coming off the tracks. It happened once, I took the door apart. It happened again a month later, I fixed it again. It happened two days later, I took it to the dealership. I was 3 months out of warranty (with only 10,000 miles on my car). I was informed that it would cost ~$600 to fix, at which point I said "You've got to be F^&*ing kidding me, all you have to do is glue the retention clip back on?!" I was informed that that wasn't the way the manual said to fix it, I had to replace the entire window mech. "You people are out of your F&*(ing minds. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'll never buy another Ford as long as I live." His reply: "You're right, they screwed the pooch on this one. See, they USED to have this pin drilled through the glass, so this never happened, but now, I guessthey decided it's cheaper to glue them instead."

At this point, I was feeling a little better. At least the guy agreed with me. It was the idiots at corporate that made this brilliant decision. I took it to a body shop that a friend of mine owns, and they had the window gued back in in les than 10 minutes. Hasn't even rattled funny since.

It still burns me that they were willing to stick me for $600 just to save 25¢ worth of cotter pins at the factory.

People need to learn LEATHER INTERIORS AND SUNROOFS ARE NOT NEEDS THEY ARE WANTS. SEPARATE THE TWO.

After owning cloth interior cars for 4 years, then getting leather in my new Saturn, it is now a must for me. Why? Well Colorado always has dry as hell air, and getting out of a cloth interior always led to nasty shocks. I swore it was only a matter of time before I would blow up a gas station by forgetting to discharge the static before grabbing the gas pump.

To prove there are at least some nice people out there, I have had 2 seperate sales people comment on how much they liked dealing with me, and one made the comment that I could have easially been elsewhere buying a more expensive vehicle. I mostly knew what I wanted, I didn't haggle over much, and in general I was very nice. I felt it was the least I could do for how nicely they treated me.

Of course, I have an interesting test for any company I deal with. I see how much they pay attention to appearance without talking to someone. I am rarley in anything more then a t-shirt and jeans. If someone won't even approach me in a store, I deem that store not worth my time. The Ford dealership did this, and lost 2 car sales now due to it. American Furniture Warehouse will not get the chance to sell me a house load of things due to them ignoring me now on 3 seperate attempts. And a local high end home entertainment store lost all my interest to Soundtrack when they also ignored me while inquiring about high end equipment.

On the other hand, Voelker Research will have several more computer sales from me, Soundtrack will probably be where I buy a high end HDTV next year, and Saturn will continue to take care of my car needs until I outgrow their price range. (Or can afford insurance on anything better).

Overall, the best transaction I probably ever have had was buying my motorcycle. That sales person was trying really hard to do anything for me, since he didn't have to do his job. I simply walked in, asked if they had a Black Suzuki Bandit, and he led me to one. I sat on it, and intentionally interrupted his sales speech with "Here is the check I intend to fill out to buy this bike. How do we get this process started?". He in turn got me $300 off my accessories in their store, even though it was a promotion that had ended a week before.

Actually, the wear and tear of test drives has nothing to do with it. (For example, BMW NA required each dealer to keep at least one demo M3 in stock for test drives, even as they sold all they could build.)

BMW was paying for that wear and tear, as well as covering the lost profit on that car. Most manufacturers do not.

I think that may be his point.

When you are marketing a premium brand, your cost structure is designed to include niceties like covering this kind of depreciation on a few upscale models.
That is not your primary concern.
Your primary concern is to (1) retain your existing customer base as happy return customers since you worked so hard to get them in the first place (note John already owns one BMW M3; they'd love to sell him another someday), and (2) to plant the seeds of desire in the minds of future potential customers so that when they get the money someday, they spend it with you, and not a competitor. They're in it for the long haul.

A buddy of mine used to test-drive Porsches in high school. They let him. They were building his desire.
Today he owns 2 or 3 Porsches at last count. Did his old hometown dealer from back in the day get the sale? Of course not, he lives somewhere else now.
But the *brand* got the sale(s). What goes around comes around if you're patient enough.

The more companies figure this out, the better off they'll be.

Since VW/Porsche/Audi are kind of the same, would a straight VW dealership have let him test-drive with no hope of a sale? Doubtful. Because VW is not the "premium" brand and it has a different sales strategy and cost model. "Buy it now, or get out of my way so I can sell it to somebody else today." A fact of which you seem to be quite aware.

Two told me I'd have to buy one to drive it, end of story

Ironic that this happens most often on the pricier models.

Sorry, but before I drop high five figures on some wheels, I'm going to have to take it for a spin first, no matter how much the auto magazines rave about it.
Wouldn't anybody?
Apparently not. I think the initial sales of limited allocation models are all to people who want to be seen in it, no matter how crappy it drives. That, and people that have enough money to take a flyer on it, or who are so devoted to the brand that they *just* *know* it's going to be good.

One time I called all over to dozens of dealerships looking for a particular car.
I found one at a dealer 50 miles away, just like I wanted.
I drove out there and he wouldn't let me testdrive it or even sit in it unless I committed to buying it.

C'mon buddy, you think I blew two days calling the world and all morning driving out here just to yank you around? Can you just unlock it so I can sit in it?
I brought my checkbook and my papers and I'm ready to buy if it drives OK.
Nope, not unless you buy it. (By the way, this was for a $30,000 car, not for some exotic ubercar.)
Perhaps you'd like to look at one of the other cars on our lot.

I think not.

It's been 10 years, and I still have never set foot in that dealership again!

I have an interesting test for any company I deal with. I see how much they pay attention to appearance without talking to someone

There was an interesting inversion in the "ignore the scruffy bastard effect" in Silicon Valley during the boom years.

The nastier I looked, the more salespeople were cozying up to me.
They assumed I was some nouveau riche dot-commer taking time out from his 20-hour coding days to blow a big wad of cash.

Um, those days appear to be gone.
But people around here still know that to judge on appearance is a very very dangerous thing in an area where those who still have lots of disposable income look just like everyone else (unlike in LA, where even the nearly homeless spend a shocking amount on their wardrobe).

This is the way forwards, definitely - appearance should be irrelevant. Porsche lost out on selling my brother a 911 because he turned up in jeans and a t-shirt. They were rude and uninterested, so he showed them the cheque he was going to give them and went down the road to the TVR garage, where they gave him great service and sold him a very nice Chimaera, which he delighted in driving past the Porsche garage every day on his way to work

I tend to do the same, just dress casually and be polite. If they are interested in selling and not just being snobby then I am interested.

Ah, here and here are the photos I was trying to find yesterday.

Gareth