Based on everything that I'd read about it, I was sure that I'd have a better experience with my new Empeg car player than I did with my Neo 35. (My Neo 35 was sent to me with a defective car bay, and I had to pay extra charges in the form of shipping costs for the bad bay in order to get a replacement.)

But no.

I took the hardware to San Diego's most reputable high-end aftermarket installer. In a few hours, the guy in charge of working on my car called me to inform me that wires were coming out of the harness that plugs into the sleeve, and that he could either repair it himself or wait for a replacement. I gave Empeg the benefit of the doubt, and told him that I would have Empeg mail him what he needed.

"Where do you want it sent?" Empeg personnel asked me. I responded with my installer's name and address; the package would arrive on Friday, and my installer is closed on the weekend, so I wanted to maximize the time remaining to him to complete his work. The package was promptly delivered - to my office. I had to take an impromptu one-hour break from work (and ultimately stay there an hour past the time I regularly leave) to rush over to the shop with the replacement harness and wiring, fortunately just missing rush hour traffic.

Wait, it gets better.

I handed the new hardware to my installer. To test its integrity, he tugged lightly on one of the wires. Out it came. At least one other wire was just as poorly crimped, and a couple of the pins weren't even properly aligned. I was told that the replacement was checked before it went out to me; maybe these things need to be shipped as fragile merchandise. Which makes them useless as car audio components, of course.

My installer is going to effect repairs on the hardware himself, but not for free. I'm going to send Empeg a copy of the bill; I just hope that they're decent enough to do the right thing.

At this point, the natural reaction of many of you will be to tell me that I was just a victim of bad luck, that your units have always seemed to work fine and that my case is rare, perhaps even unique. However, I got my player less than two weeks ago, so this could indicate a new problem at the facility where the empeg units are mechanically constructed. (Hugo has told me that they plan to look into this.)

--
Milo D. Cooper
http://www.milospace.net/

No, you aren't the only one. One of my wires has come out too. I'm a do-it-yourselfer so I will fix it myself.

I would like to recommend that the wires coming out of the cage connector should be brought together and zip tied to the back of the cage so they are not as easily pulled out. This should be done by either empegs manufacturing or the consumer before installing.

Alex Lear

Well, generally, I'm not one to criticize Empeg personnel - their commitment to support is illustrated by many testimonials I've read, as well as the very presence of almost every Empeg staff member on this very BBS. They don't have to do that, they could just wait for emails, but they are proactive, and respond to many requests and questions, many of which are not even directed at them. In fact I'm sure someone from Empeg will be commenting about this very soon.

Having said all of this, my Empeg experience hasn't been perfect. The wires on my sled were fine. My problem is the AC adaptor plug, which is defective in some way, and this causes my Empeg to always "think" it's on AC power. This means it doesn't respond to the car ignition turning off. I have arranged to send my unit out in the next week or two for repairs. I will report with my experience, which I'm sure will be a prompt and effective repair, given what I've read from others.

I do know that the functional testing and assembly of the units is something Empeg is very concerned about. I think that we have to realize that just as the Empeg software and hardware are "bleeding edge," the company itself is still in "beta" so to speak, and though the quality of the product is by most accounts quite remarkable, you have to think that not every unit will be perfect. I was told that my unit was checked out before it shipped, but I guess the testing didn't expose the defect in my Empeg.

I'm actually glad this bad experience has been posted, because it will provide as good tinder for a frank, open discussion about unit quality, which can have nothing but a positive effect on the company in the long run. Milo, I hope your issues get worked out, and that you can begin to enjoy having your Empeg in your car, where it belongs.

---
MkII 080000554

> yn0t_ wrote:
> ...though the quality of the product is by most accounts quite remarkable, you have to think that not every unit will be perfect.

Agreed -- but two bad harnesses in a row, one of which was supposedly checked for flaws before being shipped to me??

Pretty weak.

--
Milo D. Cooper
http://www.milospace.net/

Agreed - I'd be pretty torqued if that happened to me. I think Empeg will definitely take care of this for you.

---
MkII 080000554

Hi

Here's a copy of the reply I posted on MP3.com. I'm not usually moved to post on there is it is pretty much a kiddie flame fest of a BBS, but it seemed appropriate in this case.

-- Start Quote --

I'm sorry to hear of the problems MiloDC has had with both his car mounts - definitely not acceptable. I think we deserve SOME credit for getting a replacement loom to him from the UK to arrive the very next morning. Of course that gets rather overshadowed by the fact the loom turned out to be defective.

To put this in context, we've heard of about a dozen broken looms so far. I'm VERY concerned to hear that MiloDC got two in a row, especially since the second one was checked. Of course you CAN rip out crimped connections of you pull hard enough, but in this case I'm assuming the installer didn't pull that hard.

I'll have a chat with the customer service guy who dispatched (and checked) the replacement loom. You'll appreciate that we're eight hours ahead of MiloDC, so at that time of night we don't usually have any engineers in the building. Our customer service people are highly competent but it's possible he didn't realise the nature of this problem and gave the replacement only a visual check. Worse still, perhaps he took the replacement from failed stock without realising, which could explain the second failure. This is just surmise, I'm not at work to check right now.

This kind of feedback allows us to focus our staff training and ensure that such problems don't recurr. Having read the empeg BBS, MiloDC will be aware that we have a reputation for customer service second to none.

The docking looms are made for us by a contractor - the UKs (possibly the worlds) largest manufacturer of automotive leads. They are now running around trying to find out what has gone wrong. The docking system we use isn't cheap - at over $60 a set (and $3000 for the crimp tool!) we don't expect failures of this magnitude (somewhere around 1% which is enormous in manufacturing terms, though luckily not very great in actual volume as yet).

I've sent a note over to our factory telling them to double check every docking loom before they fit it. Up until now I believe they have carried out visual checks, but until the crimp problem is resolved they must now carry out a physical test.

With regard this specific case, I assume MiloDC doesn't want another replacement loom as his installer is now effecting repairs. It should only take a few minutes to solder up the faulty crimps, and that seems the best approach to expedite the installation.

Rob
rob@empeg.com

-- End Quote --

Further to my last post..

I came into work and checked 20 car mounts at random. They are all fine, I was unable to pull out any wires using reasonable force. We know there is a problem, but it doesn't seem to be too widespread.

I also discovered that Hugo tested Milo's replacement loom personally - that being the case I'm very surprised that it later proved faulty.

Rob

Wow, NOW I remember why I really hate MP3.com message boards. All it takes is one post describing a problem with the car mount loom, and the product is an over priced piece of crap not worth looking at.

Oh empeg BBS, I promise never to stray again!

Rob

I've just read through the posts on the MP3 BBS and I think Rob and Hugo deserve all praise for sticking it out on that site. The people are not exactly clueless, but they're just used to sticking their opinions down other people's throats regardless of proof or experience. Here on this BBS we also have a network of people who know about the empeg and can speak from their own experience; there, people with empegs are in the minority. We do get the occasional opinionated person that wants to flame and diss with impunity, but here there are more people to put them in their place - some (e.g. Tony with HWD) actually meet them in person and resolve the differences.

I maintain that all those people who think that the empeg is overpriced and just a toy should be given ten minutes with the remote control selecting songs. Then they should go back to their Kenwoods and Aiwas and try to do the same thing. Instant conversion.

I think the denizens of the MP3 BBS are typical newbies.

Paul

P.S. Anyone have a copy of "Singularity" by Brainchild that's not the Symmetry C mix? I'm listening to it in the second half of Paul Oakenfold's Ibiza 25/07/1999 Essential Mix set at volume almost loud enough to make my speakers distort and it's brought tears of joy to my eyes.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

To return briefly to the original question: I also had a lead detach from the ISO connector. It was the telephone mute sense line, which makes me think perhaps it's related to wire gauge. The larger 16ga leads appear quite firm, but the smaller 20/22ga ones for mute sense and illumination appear undersized for the crimp terminals.

Just for grins, I ended up securing the harness to the back of the cage with a nylon tie and adhesive block, as suggested elsewhere.

The crimp tool (which cost somewhere in the region of 3000 pounds!) is supposed to deal with each of the guages we use without a problem. To eliminate any doubt we have now arranged for the manufacturer to solder the crimps as well.

Rob

I also had this problem. One of the leads to the front left speaker out was loose and caused me to pull my hair out trying to track it down. Of course once I found it the main power lead also pulled out.

Oh well a little solder and some detective work and I was good to go.

I am a little concerned that once I pull the sled to install the tuner module I might pull more leads out.

Any thoughts?

John

18 GB green #08000525

I've had my sled out of the dash about four or five times now. (Changing out some older RCA cables for new, installing Ground Loop isolator stuff, new in dash crossover, etc., with no problems.

I even once dropped it about 3 inches (without the empeg installed, and the wires from the loom caught it. This should teach me not to balance it on my knee.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

-Trevor

-----
Mk 2, Green 12GB 080000349

I have been lucky too, I was just wondering to myself if the manufacturing process had been changed already and maybe I got a new one? Because of my particular installation (Rob stop reading) I had to move the connector from the outside of the cage to the inside.

This was because the cage is mounted behind the Toyota 4runner dash trim and the empeg push flush up to the dash (about 1cm short). Works great and I didnt have to cut the dash! guess I should post this in the installation section, but I didnt have any loose wires (fingers crossed) and that seemed pertinent.


-Doug
(Mk2-12G-Blue)

man i had to do it man i had to.. had to let out some frustration and anger on that pole smoker giant.

if iggnorance is bliss that man was a damn teletubbie.



Im as confused as a baby in a topless bar...

The manufacturing process hasn't been changed yet - like I said before, only a tiny minority of crimps were faulty. Of course, since most empeg owners use the BBS we get to hear about them all! Still only a handful of people though.

As for Milo getting two bad looms in a row, after the second had been checked by Hugo... beats me! It's sods law that the one client who is very active on the MP3.com message boards is the one that gets the worst problems.

Rob

No problems with the crimping on the sled connector here, and I've inserted and removed the sled at least five times now.

I can also vouch for the company who make the harnesses for Empeg, as they were the same guys who helped me make the adapter to connect the Empeg to the wiring loom in my TT. Their technical guy was extremely knowledgeable and helpful, and always responded to my voicemails and e-mails within minutes of me leaving them. The resulting adapter was also of top notch quality.

I did suffer one small problem with my Empeg, but this was caused by rough handling on the part of FedEx, and not any fault of Empeg's. When I reported the issue to Rob, I was given the choice of returning my Empeg by courier, or calling in to Empeg. Given that I don't live too far away, I called in to Empeg, where Hugo repaired the problem on the spot.

When I think about the relatively small size of Empeg as a company, I am constantly astounded at the quality of the product they have produced, and also at the outstanding level of after sales support.

There are many much larger and well established companies who would do well to take a leaf out of Empeg's book when it comes to looking after the customer.

Andy.

I notice you have not even bothered to note whether or not your empeg works, whether the sound quality is any good, other stuff like that.

Have you actually tried to see if the funny shiny box thing actually works yet?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

> schofiel wrote:
>
> I notice you have not even bothered to note whether or not your empeg works, whether the sound quality is any good, other stuff like that.
>
> Have you actually tried to see if the funny shiny box thing actually works yet?

Is this a trick question? Why would I post whether it works or not? That's the very least the thing should do. It's not like it's a bonus if it actually turns on. It certainly hasn't been able to work in my car, yet.

As for sound quality, it sounds great out-of-car, but thanks to the bad hardware and wrong delivery address, I haven't yet heard it in the environment in which it'll chiefly be used. That it sounds good in my bedroom is no indication that it won't be noisy in my automobile.

--
Milo D. Cooper
http://www.milospace.net/

The car outputs are much higher quality than the home outputs. (On paper and in practice).

Rob

> Rob wrote:
>
> The car outputs are much higher quality than the home outputs. (On paper and in practice).

Sounds good (no pun intended). I'm optimistic again. Thanks.

--
Milo D. Cooper
http://www.milospace.net/

Giant, a regular poster on the MP3.com car hardware BBS, has been criticising the empeg car player for not having an in-built amplifier. Citing "All the high-end Kenwood models have one" and "how am I supposed to afford a $1000 amp when I can get inbuilt 4x45W amps for sub $200". He seems impervious to the idea that to get larger amounts of power than this you would need an external amplifier, or the idea that any in-built amplifier might not be of as high a quality as an external one. While HighwayDrifter did, IMNSHO, go a bit over the top in his dissing of Giant, appeals to reason don't seem to have worked.

I'm quite happy for them to fight it out over there.

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

You people are SPOILED!! I run my own business, so I know exactly what the empeg people are going through. Everyone expects absolute perfection and nobody has the slightest clue what it costs to develop, perfect, market, produce, and deliver a new product. It seems so easy to people who have never actually done it. Even the biggest companies in the world have problems (Firestone for example)

Just be lucky empeg reponds quickly to fix them, because not all companies do. EVERY product is going to have problems. Considering the complexity of this one, I think they did a remarkable job.

Adam

the guy in charge of working on my car called me to inform me that wires were coming out of the harness that plugs into the sleeve, and that he could either repair it himself or wait for a replacement.

You've got a couple of loose wires that your installer offered to fix for you, and this qualifies as big trouble? I should be so lucky when my mechanic finds out why my car is eating a quart and a half of coolant every 300 miles.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I should be so lucky when my mechanic finds out why my car is eating a quart and a half of coolant every 300 miles.

Uh oh...

Hey, Doug, you remember when I switched from the VW to the Honda? Um, it was because of that very problem on the VW, although on a much larger scale.

The VW's head gasket had broken and was leaking coolant into the cylinders. The side effect was a sweet-smelling white steam coming out of the exhaust when starting the car. It was expensive to repair: they had to machine the head, which involved removing and disassembling it. Because it was a 16v head, they couldn't machine it without removing the valves. Plus, coolant coming out of the exhaust ruins the oxygen sensor, something that's required for the car to pass emissions (and therefore be re-saleable), so I had no choice but to have them do the repairs and replace the (not cheap) oxygen sensor if I didn't want to junk the car.

And after the repair, I figured everything would be OK. But then I noticed that the engine temperature was creeping up 20 degrees more than it was supposed to ever get. And this was on a cool day. It was on that very day that I took the VW to the Honda dealership and let them give me a couple hundred dollars towards a trade-in.

You should have seen me dismantling the car and removing all the stereo equipment in the Honda dealer's parking lot. :-)

___________
Tony Fabris

The 3.8 liter Ford V-6 engines are infamous for head gasket problems, and it is very likely that I have been nailed. It's not the end of the world -- about a $650 repair. I keep hoping if I ignore it, it will go away.

Yeah, right.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Everyone expects absolute perfection and nobody has the slightest clue what it costs

Ho ho, you're drawing your conclusions too fast, Adam.
You shouldn't measure all empeg owners from Milo's complaint that he had a loose wire in the wiring loom he got. Most would have (been able to?) repair it on the spot, or have appreciated having been sent a replacement from across the world by return on an e-mail. Compare that to the biggest companies that rate excellent in customer service, like Dell, who demand that you sent in the defective part before they will sent off a replacement. Leave alone that Michael Dell himself appears to be blamed for not having spotted the same, very rare incident on the replacement cable when he personally inspected it .

Be careful, else we'll sent Highwaydrifter after you . . .

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Speaking of the MP3.com message board. Rob... is there anyway you can get them to update that empeg picture? That one is OLD!!! There should be a nice shot of the MarkII with visuals on there!


|| loren.cox
|| 080000446

The Taurus had a head gasket related recall, and the dealers are fixing them for free. This was a little bit ago. A friend of mine with a Taurus wagon had the dealer dismantle her engine to fix this problem...

Calvin

It's disturbing to find a complete lack of rational discourse regarding in-car empeg players "out on the internet" with the exception of this place. Does anyone find it rather odd that everywhere the empeg appears in a review, a number of naysayers appear within moments to trash the product? Not to start any conspiracy theories, but in who's best interests would it be to have the empeg trashed in every public forum on the internet? The major car audio player companies? mp3 hardware competitors?

Calvin

For altman's sake, don't ignore it!

I had a leak in the top of my radiator; I ignored it. It could have been just $50 for a bit of careful welding on the radiator. But no. Instead, it was a blown head gasket and warped head - I kept boiling dry - and cost me nearly $1000 in all to have the head machined _and_ buy a new radiator.

For the want of a nail...

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

I personally don't find it particularly surprising, because I don't think it's as bad as you say. The main thing to remember is that that forum is also catering to the people who think a $200 device is expensive, and exclaim "when will I find the perfect car MP3 CD-R player!" - meaning one which does everything and is also cheaper than all the rest. You can't honestly compare a Nomad to an empeg - it's not even in the same time zone. And yet that's where it's placed - naturally, the other people in the board have a different view.

I remember when I started looking at MP3 and had a lot of suspicion at first. I couldn't get WinAmp to work on my machine (stupid 8-bit sound card device driver in NT) and naturally invented justifications for why it wasn't worth the effort. Now, of course, I know better - after all, I've successfully converted another sceptic (my brother) to the fold.

Of course, all the car audio sellers out there want you to buy their own equipment; they've already got their reasons ranked up for why customers shouldn't buy portable MP3 players and should instead shell out for non-portable car CD players or what-have-you. Plus, from my experience a fair percentage of those people behind the counter wouldn't have the foggiest about the technicalities of things like SNR, THD, grounding loops or parametric EQ; they have a hard time when you start talking watts! Most of them are people have done no course in electronics or electrical engineering, they're just ordinary joes with a liking for car audio and the perks of being inside the trade.

Not to say that there aren't some very experienced ones out there. But I think the experience of this board has proved that those experienced people also recognise the empeg as a quality piece of kit worthy of serious attention. The others either want to sell you something or have been burnt by some dodgy MP3 player in the past.

I still don't know how I'm going to find an installer when I get my empeg...

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

head gasket related recall,

Yeah, I know about that one. Unfortunately, it is for 94--95 models only (in the Taurus line; other cars using the same engine, i.e, Windstar and Continental) have different recall parameters) and even if my car were in the allowable model year range, it has too many miles to be covered. Sigh.

Don't know for certain yet that it is head gaskets, but given the history of the 3.8 liter engine, chances are better than even that it is. I could just keep pouring coolant into it, but if it is a head gasket it is going to get worse pretty quickly, and even if it doesn't get worse it will ruin my O2 sensor and my catalytic converters if I don't take care of it.

On a topic just barely peripherally related to coolant leaks... does anybody know whether gasoline will attack the plastic in a typical one-gallon antifreeze container? I have a storage compartment in my car that is the perfect size to hold such a container, but a standard gasoline container won't fit there. I am running a test now, with an antifreeze container full of gasoline sitting out in the driveway, but maybe somebody already knows this?

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Blimey! You make it sound as if there's a blood bath going on somewhere.

Any chance of a URL or a re-posting of a particularly nasty-bit of in-fighting?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Well guess what - if it's a Unipart Bluecol bottle, I wouldn't light any matches on your driveway

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

From what I remember from my days as a convenience store clerk, they always told us that gasoline would attack the plastic (it's too thin, and not designed for this purpose.)

I never experimented with it, so this is just hearsay... I know that they make very small (½ gallon or so) container. Is this too small for your needs?

I also saw an add (late night TV) for a $29.95 container that was about the size of a small cereal box that contained a gas-like substance that you were supposed to be able to carry around in the back of your car forever.

Update: The product was Spare Tank $19.95 for a gallon.

-Trevor

-----
Mk 2, Green 12GB 080000349

Edited by trevorp on 28/9/00 04:13 PM.

even if it doesn't get worse it will ruin my O2 sensor and my catalytic converters if I don't take care of it.

News flash. It already has.

As I understand it, the O2 sensor is a pretty critical component of most electronic fuel injection systems, and if it's not functioning right, then various electronically-controlled parts of your ignition system aren't running at optimum efficiency...

___________
Tony Fabris

Quite honestly, I reckon that a glycol-contaminated sensor is the absolute least of your worries if you have coolant leaks into your oilways. I think I would be more worried about cranks and big-end bearings wearing out due to oil contamination.

If someone is telling your that burnt glycol can destroy a lambda sensor, then they are out to rip you off. They are easily cleaned in ethyl alcohol. The lambda sensor is the sensor that determines the amount of uncombined oxygen (or ozone) in the exhaust strem, and it acts as the exhaust "sniffer" that closes the loop in the feedback system controlled by the ECU. It is not the only sensor, however; if it fails, it is likely your engine will just run rich. Second hand ones from scrappers are a lot cheaper than new ones; having said that, I've never had one fail on me in any car I've had, and my mate (owner of Liverpool's main Bosch diagnostic centre) reckons that they are the last things to go, since they are usually ceramic and palladium.

Likewise for cats - they aren't likely to be screwed by a bit of boiled coolant, no matter how much fuel or oil is in there with it. The coolant drops their operating temperature so much that they can't cook - so all they do is fail to operate, not fail completely.

If you've burst a head gasket you should not try to continue to drive with it, as you will pressurise your cooling system (burst radiator and internal heater matrix), push water into the oil (knackered crank, big ends, small ends, cam shaft bearings, oil pump) warp the cylinder head (damaging the cam bearings, cam, cam sleeves, cam followers), burn the cylinder block face (leading to another failure). The first order of the day is getting the gasket changed and a full engine flush with decent quality hygroscopic oil - assuming the head isn't already warped anyway ...

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

News flash. It already has.

No. At least, not yet. The car very recently went through emissions inspection (in order to get it titled and licensed in Alaska) and the technician said it was very nearly the cleanest-running car he had ever tested. Levels of CO, CO2, and hydrocarbons were running at 1%--5% of the allowable amounts -- in other words, the car could have been running 20 to 100 times "dirtier" and still passed.

[i..]...if you have coolant leaks into your oilways...

There is no oil contamination. At least, not yet.

..so all they do is fail to operate, not fail completely.

They're operating (see first paragraph, above). I may have overstated the severity of the problem. If it is a head gasket (not certain but likely) it is probably leaking into an exhaust port, not into a cylinder (which would over-pressurize the cooling system, cause coolant leaks and overheating just as schofiel said) nor into an oil gallery which would cause very unhappy things to happen with every bearing in the engine but would also be immediately evident from brown, foamy sludge on the dipstick and oil filler cap.

Since the coolant loss is minimal on a long, sustained trip (perhaps half a quart in 3000 miles in which the engine was never allowed to cool) but is considerable on a series of short distance trips (perhaps a quart in 30 10-mile trips) I suspect the problem occurs only when the engine is not at operating temperature -- maybe five or six minutes a day total.

I'll have it looked at next week (he has to finish my wife's car first) to find out just what the bad news is. I mean, it could always be a loose clamp on a heater hose, right?

Yeah. Right.... And the check is in the mail, too. :-(

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

AAHHH! TING (Sound of penny dropping)

Doug, yours is a Ford V6 in a Taurus! I am willing to bet (say, around $100) that you have a defective water pump.

Check it out, you may get a surprise. This is a common failure on all short-block Ford V6s, and is also Ford's main component design problem. I have seen this on my neighbour's (imported) Taurus, a few Cortinas, several Escorts (one of which also took out the non-return valve to the brake servo - interesting combination of failure modes, that - "what's that steam? Better stop and SSSHHHHIII......"), a couple of Siestas, a Sierra Cosworth, an Anglia, blimey the list goes on and on. Suffice to say, Ford water pump designs are CRAP

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Likewise for cats - they aren't likely to be screwed by a bit of boiled coolant, no matter how much fuel or oil is in there with it. The coolant drops their operating temperature so much that they can't cook - so all they do is fail to operate, not fail completely.

Cooking cats by boiling them in coolant is rarely the best option. The meat is too tender and the coolant leaves a bad aftertaste. Grilling a cat on a slow fire works much better IMHO. Serve with mashed potatoes and red wine.

Borislav

Well, like they say - there's more than one way to skin a cat

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

does anybody know whether gasoline will attack the plastic in a typical one-gallon antifreeze container?

Well, it's been two and a half weeks now, and the antifreeze container (a hard, white plastic bottle sold by NAPA auto parts) shows absolutely no signs of deterioration. The lid actually seals more securely than a conventional polyethylene (or whatever kind of plastic) genuine gasoline container, because the complex construction of those containers (in order to accommodate the extensible pouring tube and the vent opening) necessitates a lot more potentially leakable joints and seals.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I was lucky enough to find a great installer to install my empeg. Sound Solutions in Chantilly VA (for those of you who live in the area), had extremely knowledgeable personel, and they were not afraid to admit (and they did admit) that MP3 was most likely the future of car audio.

I know that when I was just looking at ICE MP3 players just for fun (not really considering buying one), I saw someone post that the empeg was $1200, and I completely wrote it off. Then I visited the empeg site, and with only the feedback of a handful of Mark 1 owners, I was converted right then and there. Hell I was convinced into getting a new stereo in the first place, let alone a $1300 empeg plus another $700 for the sub, amp and installation!

Give them time, they will see the light. They just aren't open minded.

DiGNAN