ditto on the OR and FoF statments.

But what happens when these un-Christlike extremists are given positions of power within the Bush administration? Is that something you support? Does that make you question Bush's moral compass at all?

--Dan.

Dave, you're being a bigot by saying all Christians behave a certain way.

As long as they can keep their faith ouf of their policy, I see no problem with it. Who cares if someone is Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist?

This reminds me of when there was a hate campaign against JFK because he was Catholic and people thought that he was going to take his orders from the Pope.

You crack me up. "Freedom of religion" only applies to non-Christians and you base your views of an entire (and varied) religion on a couple of wackos.

So, with your logic, all Muslims are terrorist and all Jews are penny-pinching accountants?

First, what on earth does this have to do with Bush?

To answer your questions, no, and I question everybody's.

As a side, that is one of the most colorful and biased articles I have read in a long time. Does he really think anyone (who doesn't already agree with him) could take him seriously talking like that? A bunch of liberals stroking each other's egos that is.

I could only read about half of it.

As long as they can keep their faith ouf of their policy, I see no problem with it. Who cares if someone is Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist?

I was very surprised to find that nearly one in five Britons don't want Michael Howard, the leader of the opposition Conservative party, to be Prime Minister just because he's Jewish. For a start, he and his party are so off the radar at the moment I didn't even know he was Jewish, but it's the breadth of the anti-Semitism that really astounded me. It's not even as if he'd be the first Jewish PM, and the previous one, who with the name "Benjamin D'israeli" was hardly covert about his Jewishness, was a pretty successful and well-regarded leader...

Peter

I too am disturbed by the amount of anti-Semitism in the world.

That was actually one of the most incoherent articles I've ever read.

What was incoherent about it? Seemed pretty coherent to me. The point is that Bush is surrounding himself with some pretty nasty people, of which this guy is one, and then he listed the history of this guy to show exactly what kind of bigoted scum he is. On its face it seems pretty straightforward. What is the problem here? And m6400, I agree it is biased, but that does not necassarily make it untrue.

I don't disagree with article but it has no coherent theme. At times, it's talking about Sheldon, at times its talking about his organization, at times its taking potshots at various people. It's just incoherent. It's hard to follow and seems to have very little point.

It's not necessarily wrong, just very poorly written and, honestly, singing to the choir. Anyone who doesn't already agree that Bush is evil is going to be put off by the near slander, and if you're just talking so that people that agree with you can nod, then you're just masturbating.

- At a time of much anxiety about flight safety the pilots intentions could easily have been misinterpreted.

I completely agree with you, there. Had I been on that plane I would have asked to de-plane after hearing the pilot say that. Considering his position as captain and the atmosphere on flights these days I would have taken that as a very threatening statement and I would have feared for the safety of all the passengers on that flight.

- trs

Brad, I see nowhere in my post where I said "all Christians behave a certain way". In fact, I think I pointed out that saying "Christian" without qualification was a bad thing. The implication being that not all Christians behave in any one particular way, and that not qualifying a statement tends to group them all together. Could you point out what you were referring to?

If your definition of Christian behavior is the way Christians do behave then you are absolutly in the right and I could not agree with you more.


This is exactly my definition. Though as I pointed out to SE_Sport_Driver, I don't mean to imply that all Christians act the same way.

I caught that at the start of your post, and I agree with it. Yet, towards the end, you define "Christian Behavior" as being "un-Christlike".

Don't get me wrong, even though I'm Christian, or more likely BECAUSE I am, I am just as disgusted by many of these groups, by televangelists, by the Catholic church's behavior regarding sexual crimes by their preists and by people going around telling the rest of the world they are going to hell. And I take offense to any of that being labled Christian behavior.

I must have severely mis-read your post because the grouping together is what I objected to.

I uderstand where you're coming from, and I think you did misunderstand me just a little. But you probably still won't like this:

I would define "Christlike" behavior as behavior similar to that of Christ. Pretty simple.

I would define "Christian behavior" as the behavior exhibited by Christians. Again, pretty simple.

Now, televangelists are Christian. As are the Catholic priests accused of and guilty of sexual crimes. As are those who "go around telling the rest of the world they are going to hell".

Are they good Christians? Even though I'm not Christian at all, I'm gonna say "No".

But this doesn't make them not Christian.

Maybe we're talking semantics, but to me the behavior of one who is Christian would be "Christian behavior". I'm making no judgement call there. Nor am I saying that these actions represent normal behavior by Christians.

However, you have to admit that there are Christians who act in these ways, and that does influence how others see Christians as a whole. Just as the behavior of a very small fraction of the world's Muslim population has influenced how people look at Muslims as a whole.

I don't believe that all Catholic priests want to sleep with altarboys. Nor do I believe that all Muslims want to "blow up the infidels". Nor do I believe that all Christians think that everyone but them is going to hell...

I agree with you: I'm disgusted by these people (the Catholic priests, the televangelists, etc.) and I'm not even Christian. I can't imagine how bad it must be for you. But if good Christians don't want to be associated with these people, I think they need to denounce them. Not only in their heart, but in the media.

It might help those of us who aren't in the loop to understand if we see both sides.

But if good Christians don't want to be associated with these people, I think they need to denounce them.

Well that is what I was trying to do in my initial post. And I explicitly used the term "Christlike" for the reasons you mentioned.

Now, televangelists are Christian.

I should point out that not all televangelists are crummy people. There are at least a few who get on the airwaves and share their faith with integrity and conviction without the intent of personal profit. Unfortunately it is truly a formidable task to separate out these, as the vast majority of televangelists are not worth listening to.

Nor do I believe that all Christians think that everyone but them is going to hell...

Actually I think most Christians do believe this, and in fact is consistent with being “Christlike”. Jesus himself spoke of hell and of people going there. But I’d really rather not debate that point- it is a matter of theology and belief more than action. It is one thing to believe that people are going to hell because that is what you think the bible teaches; it is quite another to use this as an excuse to abuse them, call them names, and act superior over them. While He spoke of hell with sadness, the only people Jesus ever used harsh words with were the religious hypocrites of the day who were more concerned with following a portion of the law they’d identified as important and using it to treat fellow humans very badly than loving others as God had (also) commanded.

Ok, so you might find a Christian belief of hell to be morally repulsive and I can totally understand that. There really isn’t any way to resolve a conflict over beliefs about reality, especially in a country where freedom of belief is supposed to be encouraged. However, a belief in hell is no excuse for treating others badly.

We should clone you. Many many times.

And I mean that as a HUGE compliment.

I would define "Christian behavior" as the behavior exhibited by Christians.

So how would you define "Christian"?

Maybe we're talking semantics, but to me the behavior of one who is Christian would be "Christian behavior".

I would define "Christian behavior" as the behavior exhibited by Christians. Again, pretty simple.

You've got to be careful here. Just because someone is Christian does not mean that everything they do is Christian behavior. Just because their is an unequal proportion of African Americans in prison does not make criminal behavior "African American-like."

But if good Christians don't want to be associated with these people, I think they need to denounce them. Not only in their heart, but in the media.

And what makes you think we don't? You started off saying that using a qualifier was important, but you've never used one when defining behavior.

Are you suggesting it's immoral to be stroked by a fellow liberal? Even in the privacy of your own home? (This will come as a shock at my house.)

Damn.

There's yet another thing you're telling me I shouldn't be doing....

I'm not telling you you shouldn't be doing it. Only that it does nothing more than to please yourself.

And, no, I didn't miss the joke.

in other news, my bible study teacher informed me yesterday that Britney walked up on the alter-call. Is she truly born-again? we'll see. but understandably, the media isn't reporting this much, due to the fact that 1) they lost another to Christianity or 2) this was all a publicity stunt (which i personally think would tempt them to report it the more). links here and here. it was really tough to find these articles on google news. surprise surprise.

?

GNS for "britney christian" shows two related articles (one is the same as the one you posted) in the first page of hits.

This quote probably sums it up:

It remains to be seen if the pop singer's "experience" amounts to a conversion or if it is another crass publicity stunt or the workings of a deeply confused mind. A similar incident with actress Jane Fonda which took place a few years ago has not resulted in the actress altering her strident pro-abortion stand.

Now, televangelists are Christian.

i have a problem with most televangelists. God to them is so poor and needy, and that its the viewer's duty to raise money for their ministry. Truth is, all Christains know the basic principle that He will provide always for each one of us. As well, for the Catholic priests, I believe that there is a two fold attack happening to the Church since its conception. Persecute from without, and corrupt from within. Most evangelical Christians believe that the Catholic Church's papacy structure is a result of this corruption within, but thats not to say that there's no problems anywhere in any other church.

However, you have to admit that there are Christians who act in these ways, and that does influence how others see Christians as a whole. Just as the behavior of a very small fraction of the world's Muslim population has influenced how people look at Muslims as a whole.

I hate to say this, but the world view of this is totally screwed up. The crazy ones are the muslim fundamentalists, and all the non-fundamentalist are seeking to distance themselves away, because thats not what Muslims are all about. Flip it to Christianity. You wanna know what Christianity is all about? Where would someone direct you to? One of those the-Word-is-without-error bible-thumping Christian fundamentalists or someone that wants to distance themselves from these fundamentalists? You judge what a belief system truly, in their foundation, stands for by the actions of the fundamentalists.

shows two related articles

yeah, the first one claiming that its just a stunt. yet when i put her name by itself, aside from the top article, its filled articles on how MTV banned her and her being a prospective Bond girl. Why isn't this news?

pro-abortion

I love that term. As if she's running around encouraging everyone to get an abortion.

This quote probably sums it up:

It remains to be seen if the pop singer's "experience" amounts to a conversion or if it is another crass publicity stunt or the workings of a deeply confused mind. A similar incident with actress Jane Fonda which took place a few years ago has not resulted in the actress altering her strident pro-abortion stand.

Yes, that summed up the fundamentalist Christian view quite well for me too. Notice how they manage to get contempt for Britney Spears, contempt for Jane Fonda, and contempt for pro-abortion Christians all into just two sentences.

And surely the reason this isn't news is that celebrities "get religion" all the time, and quite often odder ones than Christianity, too. Charting the religious affinities of the rich and famous would need a huge, and not necessarily very interesting, "rock family tree".

Peter

You judge what a belief system truly, in their foundation, stands for by the actions of the fundamentalists.

I hate to disagree, but if we go by the things Christian fundamentalist’s believe then we're totally hosed. You see, things like handling snakes falls under “Christian Fundamentalism” (after all, they’re simply following scripture). Fundamentalists are also responsible for actions like the pilot who called non-Christians on the plane “crazy”. You can argue all day long that these people have misunderstood the scriptures that they claim to be following, but at the end of the day they’ll say “I’m just following “God’s Word” and that will be the end of the discussion.

Now take my church. We are very evangelical and believe in the divine inspiration of scripture as well as every other essential Christian doctrine (many of which are rejected by “Fundamentalists”). We are “Fundamentalists” in that we do our best in every way to obey scripture; however we also apply critical thinking, contextual reference, historical information, and all sorts of other criteria necessary for properly interpreting scripture. I’d much prefer our church be what people see when they think of the core of Christianity, not those who are risking people’s lives and demeaning them.

Of course this all depends on how you define “fundamentalism”, but you should know most people are going to use it to mean “anyone who blindly follows the tenets of faith” which is a group I don’t want to be lumped into and certainly not the group I’d like Christianity judged by.