#205489 - 19/02/2004 14:36
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: image]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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... any psychology book would tell you that a lack of either will mess the kid up pretty bad. As the only child of an only child, both raised solely by my grandmother, I'm either a stunning example or exception to this rule, depending on how you feel about me, I guess.
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-- DLF
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#205490 - 19/02/2004 15:00
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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Happiness is nice, but it is not the end goal for which humans should aspire, at least in my mind. I’ve seen way too many people pursue happiness and fall deeper and deeper into depression. The happiest people I’ve ever met are those who deny themselves all of their desires and instead pursue the things of God. Your last point is exactly why I agree with your first point; I don't want to be one of those "shiny, happy people."
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-- DLF
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#205491 - 19/02/2004 15:26
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: m6400]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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Now, make mine a Guinness and the next rounds on me. What about the Biblical prohibitions on the grog?
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-- DLF
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#205492 - 19/02/2004 15:40
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: DLF]
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member
Registered: 18/09/2002
Posts: 188
Loc: Erie, PA
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What about the Biblical prohibitions on the grog?
Jesus drank, that's good enough for me. We are cautioned very strongly not to become drunk (mainly because it can lead to other acts which we should not do) and I have never been drunk.
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- Marcus -
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#205493 - 19/02/2004 16:15
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lastdan]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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As far as I'm concerned, if the state/country allows same sex marriages, it has nothing to do with the religions. It's not like the government is requiring the churches to marry gay people. The religions should just mind their own business - the souls of their practitioners
All Christian/Judaic/islamic mythology aside, I believe that gay people should not be banned from marriage - just like mixed race marriages shouldn't be. I believe that those who oppose gay marraige are just like the bigots who opposed interacial marriage. They are just behind and lack social progress.
I don't believe that Children are a requirement for marraige - they are a requirement for parenthood which is another challenge altogether. Plenty of people have children out of "Wedlock" but they are still children and "legitimate" human beings.
If Gay people want to adopt, that is fine too. I know many gay people who would make great parents. Being a child of gay parents doesn't make the children gay (as if that were a bad thing). Most gay people were born of hetero parents and they did not turn out hetero 
It is important to take a step back to see the real issues at play here and not let mythology influence how we treat others.
my 2 cents.
ex-mormon, ex-minister, atheist
_________________________
Brent
RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
'96 Saab 900s (Not any more)
Still looking for a good way to install in a 2010 BMW 3 series with iDrive/NAV
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#205494 - 19/02/2004 16:44
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: image]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> and the discovery of the dead sea scrolls also bolsters the
> claim that the texts are well preserved. direct comparison
> from the 2000 year old scrolls with today's tranlations
> show almost NO distortion in the old testament.
Wait. I've read that the dead sea scrolls showed that books/chapters had been removed from the bible proper. Doesn't that prove that editing out of "politically problematic" text happened?
-brendan
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#205495 - 19/02/2004 16:51
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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>> The Old Testament Commanded the Killing of Homosexuals
> Irrelevant tangent, really. No one is proposing that we kill all the gay folks.
Actually quite relevant. When political systems relegate certain disliked people to second class status, that can be the beginning. Sometimes it's only a matter of time...
There's a rather ugly example of that in Europe in the mid 20th century. Yellow stars, pink triangles, etc.
-brendan
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#205496 - 19/02/2004 16:54
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> I think that God blesses and punishes countries based on how they follow the moral code that He has outlined.
Ok, this is over the top. A pious person living in an evil country would be punished for living there? God punishes people who have evil neighbors?
-brendan
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#205497 - 19/02/2004 17:00
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I'd posit that the separation of church and state was as much, if not more, for the protection of the state _from_ the church(es). If this were the case, the limitation would be on the church, not the government.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205498 - 19/02/2004 17:49
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> If this were the case, the limitation would be on the church, not the government.
Care to elaborate, because I am not following your argument. The fact is that many of the founding fathers were extremely critical of organized religion, from Jefferson to Adams to Franklin and many more. The separation of Church and State (a phrase which Jefferson coined) was meant to stop goverment from sanctioning a particular religion. I am sure they meant at the time any Christian demonination, but it is nice how it neatly applies to all religions in general. Having the goverment say marriage means what the Christians want it to mean goes against everything this country was founded on like tolerance and freedom, and is wrong. Simple as that.
Edited by ninti (19/02/2004 17:53)
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#205499 - 19/02/2004 19:03
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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The fact is that many of the founding fathers were extremely critical of organized religion, from Jefferson to Adams to Franklin and many more.
To be precise, they were critical of state-run organized religion, and not organized religion in and of itself. If this had been the case, these founding fathers would have had nothing to do with religion whatsoever.
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#205500 - 19/02/2004 19:14
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Care to elaborate, because I am not following your argument. The purpose of the first amendment was to restrict what government could do to religion. Government did not have the power to tell one religion is was wrong and another it was right. This protects the church from government control. If the state were to enforce one relgion, it would not be the church controlling the state, but the state controlling the religion. Having the goverment say marriage means what the Christians want it to mean goes against everything this country was founded on like tolerance and freedom I haven't said that I think the government should say marriage means what Christians say it means. I've merely said that it is frustrating when the concept is defined differently by the government than what the church has defined it as. But in this country, the people rule (not the church), ans so marraige means what the people of the country say it means, not the church. As Bitt said and I tried to point out, separation of church and state is tangental to the issue of same-sex marriage. I think religion is involved in the discussion because it is an aspect of the church that Christians hold very stronly to, but that doesn't mean I think Christians should always get their way about things.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205501 - 19/02/2004 20:17
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Cybjorg said:
> To be precise, they were critical of state-run organized religion, and not organized religion in and of itself.
Some were of that opinion and stopped there, such as Paine and Madison. Others, such as Jefferson and Franklin, held a much more absolute opinion on the subject and were critical or dismissive of all organized religions in any way. They were theists, believing in a Christian God, but were very anti-church:
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
- Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119
Others, like Washington, apparently were not religious at all and very ambivalent in a belief in God.
FerretBoy said:
If the state were to enforce one relgion, it would not be the church controlling the state, but the state controlling the religion.
If the state were to enforce the one religion, it would be the church controlling the state as well. Look at the places in the world where this is the case. The admonishment for government to stay out of religious affairs protects both the goverment and religion. I wish religious people would realize this, but a lot seem to think it is perfectly ok for the state to endorse religion, as long as it is their religion.
As Bitt said and I tried to point out, separation of church and state is tangental to the issue of same-sex marriage. I think religion is involved in the discussion because it is an aspect of the church that Christians hold very stronly to[...]
Well, I have to disgaree that this is a tangent. I believe it goes to the very heart of the matter, as it does in the case of abortion as well. For the most part, the only people opposed to these issues are religious (i.e. Christians), and only because their bible tells them these are bad things. This issue is purely about Christians trying to force the law to make something that they don't approve of, for religious reasons, illegal for anyone regardless of their personal faith. Marriage does not belong to the Christian church and I am sick of people making believe it does. Marriage is a rite in ALL religions, and existed well before anyone ever heard of Jehovah or Jesus.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#205502 - 19/02/2004 21:17
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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They were theists I believe the word you're looking for there is ``deist''.
The religious basis for their beliefs is tangential because it makes no difference why people believe that homosexuals should be second class citizens. As long their bigotry is pointed out and accepted, it makes no difference to the government why they are that way. If most of the populous is bigoted in the same way, then that's the way the cookie crumbles.
It might be important to note that Jefferson was also a meritocratist.
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Bitt Faulk
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#205503 - 19/02/2004 21:40
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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This issue is purely about Christians trying to force the law to make something that they don't approve of, for religious reasons, illegal for anyone regardless of their personal faith. You're right that Christians are trying to produce a system of laws that align with their values. This is not wrong. That's all anyone is trying to do. However we come to our system of values, all anyone is trying to do is have those values reflected in the laws that govern the land. This has nothing to do with a separation of church and state. If the people of the U.S. decide that same-sex marriage should not be legal, then that is what the government should support, regardless of the rationale behind the sentament. Likwise, if the people decide that same-sex marriage should be legal, then again that is the choice of the government, regardless of the church. Religion is involved because it drives many of the beliefs that produce laws, but that is hardly the same as saying the church is trying to control the government. The United States is supposed to be a nation where the people choose, and that means we get to choose with any rational that we want, be it faith or any other reason. Sure, the government could decide to throw out the will of the people in favor of "tolerence", "enlightment", "righteousness" or any other concept, but that wouldn't be the consistent with values this nation was founded on. It is the people who are "tolerant", "enlightened," "righteouss," etc. not the government.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205504 - 19/02/2004 21:52
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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FerretBoy said:
If the state were to enforce one relgion, it would not be the church controlling the state, but the state controlling the religion.
Ninti's reply:
If the state were to enforce the one religion, it would be the church controlling the state as well. Look at the places in the world where this is the case. The admonishment for government to stay out of religious affairs protects both the goverment and religion. I wish religious people would realize this, but a lot seem to think it is perfectly ok for the state to endorse religion, as long as it is their religion.
Ninti - well said indeed.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#205505 - 19/02/2004 21:55
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I think that God blesses and punishes countries based on how they follow the moral code that He has outlined. So by publicly promoting something against His precepts, we (the US) are turning away from Him with our actions.
But doesn't this beg the question: If homosexuality is so much "against His precepts", then why did He choose to make some people homosexual?
Before you try and tell me that a person's sexual orientation is a matter of choice, and those people who "decide" to become homosexuals are acting against His wishes... I want you to tell me just when it was that YOU made the decision to be heterosexual.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#205506 - 19/02/2004 22:02
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Even if everything could literally translate, you could still have problems because a person wrote down the translation and could easily have made a mistake in doing so.
I can't help thinking of the joke... the Monk is down in the cellar, verifying by candlelight that the newly finished transcription is a perfect copy of the original. Tears are streaming from his eyes, he's beating his fists on the table, saying: "Celebrate. The word was CELEBRATE!"
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#205507 - 19/02/2004 22:11
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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But doesn't this beg the question: If homosexuality is so much "against His precepts", then why did He choose to make some people homosexual? First, great question, especially since it'd have been so easy to blast me on the obviously charged point of my post. My answer (again, firmly from my worldview- my arguments don't make a great deal of sense outside of a biblical perspective): We live in a fallen world where things aren't as they should be. In a perfect world there would be no homosexualty, no drukenness, no lust, no temptation, no violence, no war, no slavery, etc. This is the product of the apple incident in the garden and Adam's choice of self over God. That's the theology behind my worldview. Why did God alow sin in the first place? Many speculate, but I think (as do many others) that it is to give humans freewill. We have to choose between sin or God in order to make a choice in God a real choice. You see, being a homosexual is not a sin. Committing homosexual acts is. Desiring sex is not wrong. Having sex with someone who is not your spouse is. We all have struggles because we're imperfect humans in an imperfect world. It is this struggle of choosing between sin and God that we all must endure for the sake of freewill. And guess what? I sin all the time. Yet I don't blame God for making me capable of it, I blame myself for choosing the world over God. Yet He is forgiving of my mistakes, as equally as he is of someone who engages in homosexual activity, steals, lies, or commits any other sin. It is the human condition that we sin; the question is how we deal with it. Do we look the other way or do we turn to God for forgiveness? Note: This post created directly in the BBS for your viewing pleasure.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205508 - 19/02/2004 22:12
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I can't help thinking of the joke... the Monk is down in the cellar, verifying by candlelight that the newly finished transcription is a perfect copy of the original. Tears are streaming from his eyes, he's beating his fists on the table, saying: "Celebrate. The word was CELEBRATE!" LOL
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205509 - 19/02/2004 23:19
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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Speaking of CELEBRATE, sometimes pictures can say more than a thousand words:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/queso/310987.html
I actually got all choked up while I was reading that posting.
-brendan
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#205510 - 19/02/2004 23:29
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: brendanhoar]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I think you just ended the argument.
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Dave
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#205511 - 20/02/2004 00:41
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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How could this end the argument? Even after having read that, I still believe homosexual acts to be a sin. Don't get me wrong, it isn't an unpardonable one. What I define a sin as is anything that causes a person to stray from God's will. For the record, no one sin is greater than another. A lie is the same as murder to God. The logic being that God is a perfect being. ANYTHING that is imperfect is not up to God's standards. There are no degrees of perfection. Either you are or you aren't. The only thing that saves us is God's grace and the fact that Jesus Christ paid the blood debt for our sins on the cross. A perfect man took the blame for all of my sins. Past, present, and future. He took the blame for all of your sins as well. The trick is that you have to accept the forgiveness and grace.
I am the first to tell you that though I believe homosexuality to be wrong, I am no better than anyone else out there. Seeing a large number of people sinning does not diminish the fact that I believe it is a sin.
I also believe that homosexuals can be saved just as easily as I was. The main difference is that striving to not lie, cheat, or steal is a bit easier than trying to deny sexual urges. Compound that with the fact that being gay affects many parts of your lifestyle as a whole. It is very difficult to be able to control something this pervasive, even if one had the desire to. Deciding to try and not lie is a lot easier than deciding to try not having homosexual sex. The former affects only the person making the decision. The latter affects those around the person. Especially if we are talking about the partner of said person.
Now, to tackle the idea that God punishes one for his neighbors actions, look into the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I wager we can all guess the nature of sin Sodom was punished for.
Again, I want to make it perfectly clear that these are simply my beliefs, and I understand that my beliefs more than likely don't match up with yours and that's fine. But understand, you are as likely to change my mind about this as I am of changing yours. It is never going to happen. And you know what? That's OK.
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#205512 - 20/02/2004 02:00
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lectric]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> I wager we can all guess the nature of sin
> Sodom was punished for.
My understanding was that they were punished for worshipping a god other than yaweh (granted, part of the worshop was via a whole bunch of sexual rites, including homosexuality among others). Over time, the nature of the translations have changed to target homosexuality in specific, but that just shows bigotry by rewriters of the christian bibles.
-brendan
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#205513 - 20/02/2004 05:54
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Having sex with someone who is not your spouse is.
Can you point me to the verse(s) that say sex outside of marriage is a sin ? I know there are verses that say adultery is a sin, but I'd like to see ones that say sex outside of marriage is sinful.
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#205514 - 20/02/2004 06:59
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Can you point me to the verse(s) that say sex outside of marriage is a sin ? There aren't any, near as I can tell. I was referring to adultery in my post. As for sex before marriage, there wouldn't be reference to it in the bible because in Jewish culture of the time there wasn't a question that sex before marriage was a bad thing. So I think the only way you'd see reference to it would be if the norm needed to be challenged. However, arguments from silence are bad and so I won't try to make one. I will say that based on what I perceive the marriage covenant to be (from scripture), I think extreme emotional and physical intimacy should be reserved for that relationship alone. However, I must admit that there is a fair degree of my interpretation going into this, and I can understand how someone might come to a different conclusion.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205515 - 20/02/2004 07:02
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Others, like Washington, apparently were not religious at all and very ambivalent in a belief in God.
History tells us that on frequent occasions, Washington paid homage publicly to the God of all nations and earnestly exhorted his soldiers and his fellow countrymen to "express our grateful acknowledgements to God, for the manifold blessings he has granted to us."
For further reference, see his general thanks to God fo December 18, 1777. Also note his personal note to Rev. Israel Evans, Chaplain to Poor's New Hampshire Brigade in 1778, in which he states in writing the first wish of his heart is "to inculcate a due sense of the dependence we ought to place in that All wise and powerful Being on whom alone our Success depends."
I have yet to read a historian who stated that Washington was not a man of faith and prayer.
Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.
There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.
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#205516 - 20/02/2004 07:11
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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As for sex before marriage, there wouldn't be reference to it in the bible because in Jewish culture of the time there wasn't a question that sex before marriage was a bad thing.
Are you saying that no one had sex before marriage in Biblical times? Or are you saying that sex before marriage was already frowned throughout the whole Eastern Mediterranean so that Jesus, Paul et al didn't need to mention it ?
I'd don't buy it that on such a key area of human sexuality there would be no mention of it if it were outlawed by God.
_________________________
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#205517 - 20/02/2004 07:24
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: brendanhoar]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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My understanding was that they were punished for worshipping a god other than yaweh (granted, part of the worshop was via a whole bunch of sexual rites, including homosexuality among others).
The Bible states that the men of Sodom were "exceedingly wicked and sinful against the LORD" (Gen. 13:13), and that there were not even ten who were considered righteous in the entire city (Gen. 18:16-33). You are correct in saying that the city of Sodom was not destroyed specifically because of homosexuality. However, homosexuality did abound, so much so that it is mentioned in the Bible (Gen. 19:5). I am not aware of any translation that states that Sodom was specifically destroyed because of the abundance of homosexuality.
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#205518 - 20/02/2004 07:49
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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I haven't said that I think the government should say marriage means what Christians say it means. I've merely said that it is frustrating when the concept is defined differently by the government than what the church has defined it as. But in this country, the people rule (not the church), ans so marraige means what the people of the country say it means, not the church.
Just as a point of reference, here in Holland the state doesn't even recognize the church part of marriage. To get married, you *have* to do a civil marriage (typically at the town hall), and then, if you want to, you can also have a religious ceremony of whatever form - but only the civil part counts in the eye of the law.
On the other hand, if you explicitly don't want to or can get married, not even civil, you have the option of making a "living together agreement", agreeing the rights to common property etc - this can even be an arrangement between siblings who happen to be living together.
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