Just wondering what people here think about the acquisition announcement recently posted on the Empeg website.

I can't help but be fearful about this new development. Historically, I've noticed that those things which endear the company to their original customers get lost in the interests of the new greater whole.

I just hope that the level of support that we have all come to appreciate from Empeg does not diminish as a result of them becoming part of S3.

On a more positive note, I would like to think that this tie up with S3 will provide Empeg with a more solid financial foundation, and that they will be left to work on more great products for us to enjoy.

A big thanks must to go to everyone at Empeg, for making ownership of the empeg-car such a pleasant experience. Never have I received service as good, or as prompt. Please don't allow this to change!

Andy.

Very surprising. Not that this happened, but that it happened so soon. I agree that often times these acquisitions have a negative effect on the product (a la Winamp, ICQ, etc.)

However, we can't deny that there are certain things that a small company like Empeg can't do themselves. Exhibit 1: Hugo's statement in the press release:

In reply to:

---

"The deal enables us to focus on what we're best at - developing cool products," Hugo Fiennes, empeg's Technical Director explained. "S3 brings manufacturing skills as well as sales and marketing expertise: together we get to shape the future of listening itself."

---

S3 does, indeed, excel at manufacturing, sales, and marketing. These are things that Empeg, as a small company, has had to deal with, and may indeed distract them from their design and implementation of new features. Did we really expect the co-founder of the company to be soldering our Empeg units forever? I would much rather the guys spend their time on thinking up and implementing new ideas, instead of fixing broken units and responding to tech support requests. I agree that you can't get much better support than from the guys who created the damn thing, but who among us expected that to last forever?

This also opens up the door for service facilities in many countries, and increased availability of replacement parts (A/R coated screens, custom remotes, etc.) The hurdles and pitfalls of this adventurous project can now be cleared much more quickly with S3's technology and marketing muscles waiting to be flexed.

I can see no way in which the negatives of this acquisition will outweigh the positives, and I'm normally skeptical when something like this happens. While I'm sure we would love to keep Empeg as our own little "cult" technology, it's just too far ahead of its time to be kept in a bottle. I'm happy that the Empeg product is going to receive the attention that it deserves, and that the hard work everyone put into it has paid off. They deserve it!

-Tony
MkII #554

Agreed.

I think you guys at empeg have done a great job, and I've enjoyed every minute
of my empeg purchase.

Hope that you guys don't disappear into a big black hole....Do what your stomaches tell you to, not the big suits.

Good luck with the big guys.

TommyE

Greetings!

I, too, am extremely happy with my empeg purchase. Based on the announcement, I only have two (big) questions:

1) How does this affect the folks@empeg? I hope Rob isn't out of a job. I hope that development on new products and features will continue. I hope that everyone is happy with the change.

2) How does this affect current Mk1&2 customers? Especially given that the Mk1 is really "manufacturer discontinued". There are a number of currently open items (tuners, antireflective plates, knobs, handles, voice recognition, etc.) that will hopefully continue to be priorities in the new environment. The fabulous level of customer support that we have enjoyed in the past is something that will hopefully continue going forward. Should we be concerned about upgrade path from the Mk2?

Any comments (official or otherwise) from the folks@empeg?

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)

1. No, all the jobs are safe & we're expanding rapidly; development is obviously going to continue - it'd be rather silly to buy us & stop us developing!

2. Support shouldn't be affected. As we said before, the mk1 continues to be supported, though at some point in the future it will reach a "final" state (mainly due to the limited RAM) as adding more code would reduce caching too much. We're nowhere near that point yet, though. We're continuing to manufacture new empegs and sell them.

All the current mk2 issues will be addressed, but I can't guarantee that current owners will necessarily get discounts on any newer models - that won't be in our hands anymore. The discount for the mk1 owners was to show our appreciation for the early adopters. VR is still on the "coming" list, but is not anywhere near shipping yet.

Hugo

Greetings!

Sounds great! It sounds like you have made a good move.

Congratulations!!!

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)

I'll answer some specific concerns, in my own words as I see the situation:

Q. Whats the future of the car player?
A. This is one of the key reasons for the acquisition - the car player will continue to be sold and developed. For the time being the branding will continue as "empeg" but at some point it is logical that the product will be integrated into the hugely successful Rio brand.

Q. Will the faces or roles at empeg change?
A. All of our staff are highly valued, and will continue within the company - this deal brings well deserved security to a group of people that have staked their own career on the success of a startup company. We have been recruiting developers recently - two new programmers start this week (Andrew and James) with several additional roles expected to be filled by the end of the year.

The staff at empeg are expected to continue in their current role, although Hugo and Steve will now have many additional responsibilities. Mike will continue to lead the (somewhat larger) UK development team, and I will continue as Operations Manager for the UK operation.

Q. How will the acquisition affect empeg culture?
A. We have been working closely with S3 for many months, which is one of the reasons that we are enthusiastic and confident about this acquisition. S3 understand how empeg works, and they have no intentions or wishes to change a winning formula. This announcement is really just the formalisation of an arrangement that has effectively been in place for some time already. We have found S3 to be a very compatible company in terms of culture, and I have yet to see an S3 executive in a suit (which I consider a good thing!).

Q. Will empeg employees continue to post to the BBS?
A. The BBS has always been an unofficial forum which employees are free to post to, or not, as they wish. This will not change. As always, messages posted here by empeg/S3 employees should be considered the personal opinion of that person and not necessarily company line.

Q. Will empeg support become less personal?
A. For the time being support will continue in the same way as always, with the exception that we now have access to a servicing facility (in Germany) which will handle most hardware repairs. The level of service will be as high, or higher, than currently. Your contact points will be the same as now - primarily David, Daniel or myself. The alpha group, and public beta releases, are expected to continue as before.


Feel free to raise other concerns you may have. I'm about to fly back to the UK so I'll be out of touch for about a day, but don't think I'm ignoring you. I'll catch up on the messages tomorrow.

Rob

My post further up the thread should answer most of that.

Outstanding issues - tuners, panels etc - continue to be a priority for us and offers made previously (e.g. free tuner to upgrading clients, free replacement AR coated panels) will, of course, be honoured.

The morale at empeg is high - we all benefit from this deal in many different ways. Mostly, it's good to have the resources to work on projects we would otherwise have been unable to develop - and to see some of those projects in the highstreet!

Rob

Don't forget to let them know about my free Mk2 unit too

Do what your stomaches tell you to, not the big suits.

You mean "eat Thai food?"



--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

That's the one word that kept coming up in my mind as I read the announcements: "Manufacturing".

From what Hugo told me, the Rio Receivers will be selling in the sub-$250.00 range because S3 has some great manufacturing facilities at its disposal. This allows for cheaper end-product.

So. The next logical question: If S3 begins manufacturing the car player, does that mean the price of the Mk2 will come down?

Follow-up question: Does this also mean we'll see the Empeg Car being distributed through more traditional channels (Crutchfield Crutchfield Crutchfield Crutchfield Crutchfield Crutchfield)?

___________
Tony Fabris

CONGRATS!! Amazing, i'm sure you guys@empeg are excited about the future of all of this. Wow, i must say i have the same concerns as everyone else, but i'm sure that Rob, Hugo, et al. will do more than their best to keep the service level and quality up. So much for our little cult. =]


|| loren.cox
|| 080000446

So much for our little cult.

Yeah, no kidding. I just got license plates! Hope the name stays on the product for a while!!!!

___________
Tony Fabris

HAHA!! i didn't even think about that. Ah well, I'm still trying to get mine. EMP3G II to the end! =]


|| loren.cox
|| 080000446

Congratulations guys! I hope you can continue to offer excellent support for the empeg and continue to develop it like you have been. I hope you all got raises with this deal!

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

I am highly skeptical that anything will be the same once S3 takes complete control and empeg loses control. Right now everyone at empeg cares about whether we are happy or not with their product, and if it breaks they fix it. FAST. That will never be the case with a big company like S3 and its just kind of scary to me.

bboyd
MKI #301

That thought has already passed through my mind as well, but theres nothing we can do about it. On the positive side of things, they will have more money to get things done. I think they will remain free do to whatever they see fit within reason.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

I hope so, it just seems that almost all products produced by small compnays that get bought out by a big boy seem to go down hill. The quality of the product produced is lower becuase of the mass producing and the CEO's that dont care as long as they are making more money. I'm just glad I will be able to laugh when I hear a sales man say, "this is the first true mp3 player for a car, it doesnt require a cd it actually reads from a hard drive", while he's pointing at a box with RIO on it.

bboyd
MKI #301

But if the company is to grow, some larger organization would have to be developed, or otherwise accessed in order to deliver support. Unless we're suggesting that the business not be grown (and thus condemn the guys to eternal poverty in sun-scarce England), some change from the current 'system' is inevitable. Well done guys! - I hope the negotiations went well - and I'm sure there were many worse options for us than S3. I love my Empeg and am glad to have been there on the ground floor.

Dave Upton
36G Blue waiting for Amber and Radio...

If they change the name of the product, think how much more valuable it will be on Ebay when you advertise an "Orignal EMPEG Player" as a true collectors item

Dave Clark
Austin, Texas
12g Amber

Then the Mark 1 guys can display at the antique computer show in San Jose! ;]


|| loren.cox
|| 080000446

Or at least *my* big question:

Who's going to be responsible for the overall engineering for future units, S3 or Empeg?

Or to put it more specifically, if S3 wants to make the Mk3 unit a totally closed and proprietary unit that runs Windows CE, will any ex-empegers have anything to say about it or is that Just The Way It Will Be?

I personally really enjoy the hackability of the empeg because of its embedded Linux OS. It makes the hardware less "a dedicated car mp3 player" and more like "A cool tiny little computer to play with and hack on that also happens to be a killer car/home MP3 player." Yeah, I'll still have my Mk2, but when the Mk3 comes out with the 160BG harddrive standard, firewire, PCMCIA slots, wireless ethernet and the holographic projection display, I'd like to be able to bang around on it just like I do with my Mk2.

A lot of people I know are saying "S3 are really cool and they're about the best company to have done something like this" but it's still, IMHO, "a few guys in their garage building a really cool piece of hardware being acquired by International Megacorp" and that usually scares me.

If there had been a really compelling reason to use WinCE, we probably would have done it. It would have had to be *really* compelling, though - we didn't use linux specifically to make it easy to hack on, it was just the best OS for the job.

Bear in mind that the Rio/Dell box we did for them runs Linux, and we have a lot of knowledge on the embedded linux front. It'd be a shame for that to go to waste in future products, wouldn't it? :)

Hugo

Not heard anything yet to say what will become of the original hardware designer, Patrick Arnold. Rob? Patrick?

I reckon this just about consigns my Mk1 to the heap, I'm afraid

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I just hope that the empeg folks will still have their descretion in the release of new software, and that it isn't controlled too much by S3.

That's a good question, will S3 make us pay for upgrades? That sounds like a big-company policy that could possibly get implemented. I don't think I'd mind too much, as long as it wasn't like $40 (which is conceivable for S3), and it would be nice if at least 1.1 were released free.

That is another question. Does this delay 1.1 at all?

And my last question is out of curiosity. How much involvement does S3 have in empeg for now and in the future? Are they basically going to leave you to your business for now? Will they be having a say in what you do in the future?

I think this could be both good and bad, as it will mean more money for empeg and greater backing for the company. I don't like that S3 will invariably change the product name, most likely to something as uncreative as "Rio Car Player" instead of "Rio empeg". But I suppose it's okay.

Tony, is there a way to store the existing empeg logo so I can replace the S3 logo that is almost definietly going to be replacing it?

DiGNAN

Patrick was never an employee, he preferred to work on a contract basis - and the hardware design was definitely a joint effort (he did schematic capture, pcbs, etc, but I did a lot of the design - the digital audio interface, the VFD, IDE, PICs, etc). I suspect he'll be rather busy with his other projects :)

Why do you think your mk1 is consigned to anything? It's still a supported product. We have plenty of spares and have no problems with servicing them either.

Hugo

S3 will invariably change the product name, most likely to something as uncreative as "Rio Car Player" instead of "Rio empeg"

If they are smart, they will leave the brand name alone, and just provide manufacturing expertise, reliable manufacturing facilities and the parts supply possibilities of a big manufacturing concern, plus a good distribution and marketing chain. The "empeg" brand should be part of the S3 group of companies.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Tony, is there a way to store the existing empeg logo so I can replace the S3 logo that is almost definietly going to be replacing it?

That's in the Kernel. The Kernel is open-source, so you can change it right now if you want. My logo editor program doesn't work at that level, it only sends a logo into a reserved area of flash (outside the actual kernel code).

___________
Tony Fabris

Why do you think your mk1 is consigned to anything? It's still a supported product. We have plenty of spares and have no problems with servicing them either.

The only question is how long will that last? Will S3 want to bother with us old Mk1 owners :) ... and earlier I meant to say congrats on the deal. I do hope it goes well, just hope the quality of the product doesnt decline.

bboyd
MKI #301

I think the point is that *we* bother about it - and mk1 support wouldn't ever get passed on from us as it's a very very low volume undertaking :)

Hugo

As-always, Great Job guys! Empeg has accomplished what so many startups try, but fail. Probably because of your collective good nature and hard work. I am sure you are all very excited. You have created an incredible product and I hope you got every bit of what you deserved.

-Doug
(Mk2-12G-Blue)

Further to DIGNAN's post, I am concerned as well about "upgrades" and future support.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the empeg was designed to resist obsolescence, was it not? It was designed to be infinitely (within reason, of course) expandable. The empeg was designed to be upgradeable to keep up with products coming out years after it. Its partly how I justified the price-tag.

This is NOT in keeping with the practice that large consumer electronics corporations exercise, who would put themselves out of business if they designed hardware that diminished yearning/need for upgrades. They profit from product cycles whereby the savvy hardware freak will want to upgrade every year or so. Hold back features and upgrades for the next generation, and weed out support for the old product. Herd the consumer into the Latest Version.

Working for a company that was a happy small shop of about 30 people until two years ago, when a large corporation bought us up to use as a "regional office" things definitely changed in similar ways. I can pretty much imagine what things will happen to the product and the culture, the only question is how soon.



The best of the best of the existing shop will take their packages, let themselves be cashed-out, and move on to better things in a small-shop setting, just like before -- the only difference is they'll have a ton of their own venture capital the next go-round.

Working out of your garage on a dream and making it real is a high thats hard to get over. You can't put the same people in a large shop, and all the crap that it entails and expect they'll continue to be productive and innovative -- or happy.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

I think the point to keep in mind here is this: S3 aren't a consumer electronics company; consumer electronics companies tend to be hardware sellers driving product replacement as hard as possible.

If you're trying to compete with such companies, most of which dwarf S3, you use the computer market tactics - flexible hardware, and good software (ie, "the empeg way" ;) ). There will always be new versions - witness mk1->mk2 - simply because new chips come out and new things become possible. It's the way of electronics.

I really believe S3 know that the reason we make good stuff is because we enjoy it, and they're going to help us to continue doing this. If I didn't believe this, I personally wouldn't have considered the deal.

One other thing to consider: we simply couldn't have carried on as we were, making small numbers of a highly priced product - sooner or later (probably sooner) a big company would have wiped us out. Sure, our product would be better, but everyone would buy the cheaper box. This way, we get to do the fun bits, but it gets marketed by a company with clout.

Hugo

I've now had a quick chat on the telephone to Hugo about the acquisition, and he's pretty much laid my fears to rest.

When you really think about it, S3 would be incredibly foolish to upset such a close knit and productive team as they have acquired with Empeg.

I'm sure that securing the continued expertise of all concerned must be paramount in the minds of the S3 management. After all, what's the use of acquiring a product, if you can't retain the brains behind it?

I guess we will all just have to wait and see what happens, but I don't think that the Empeg brand will be disappearing any time soon.

Andy.

I think they are a seperate operating unit that is owned by s3. Things will probably continue as they are now with a few changes. Im not too worried about it.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

S3's mission:

Relaunched as a digital media company, S3 is committed to creating products and partnerships that help build the digital home. Combining strong financial assets with an extensive technology portfolio, that includes the Rio family of digital audio players and the HomeFree series of home networking solutions, S3 is uniquely positioned to capitalize on high growth opportunities in the rapidly converging Internet and consumer device markets.

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people. As the empeg-people are now working for s3, they will probably be spending most of their time fulfilling that basic mission; that is, designing technology which is commercially attractive(cheap) and is in reach of as much people as possible.
Another viable option is that empeg is going to be the niche product-name for the s3 high-end stuff, which I don't think personally. If it is, it probably isn't the crew designing new gadgets and stuff.
Don't take this personal guys, I wish you all the best of luck with this venture, but you will soon discover the nature of working for big corporations.
Think of the following :
- long after-hours meetings with so-called technically enclined managers, who think they have the vision of future
- Set up an iso-compliant quality system. This involves chewing out large piles of documentation of all procedures and actions ever taken to dissolve any problems.
- Work according deadlines; If the tuner-module isn't delivered in the time that was originally set, some big-time lawyer will see change to setup some large lawsuit sewing the pants off of s3(and you feeling guilty)

these are just some of the things that are going to happen, I do not think there will be much time left on giving the empeg-people the things they asked for:
- open API to the player
- Voice recognition
- Tuner module
- fast support.
- ...

Please reply if I'm totally off with this one...I

Frank van Gestel

You are totally off IMHO; as a group we are obviously under the management of the Rio group's VP of engineering, who is a thoroughly good bloke & a hacker type (building a light aircraft in his garage...!) - but we get to "own" some projects, ie the management for these projects stays here.

We get to draw on the other divisions - great hardware designers both in Germany and the US, PCB design, component sourcing, etc, which makes us a lot more productive (read: we don't spend several days just finding and ordering components to build prototypes with).

Addressing your points:

- Open API. This is just as likely to happen as it was before - ie, it depends on how much time we have free. If a compelling reason arises (eg: nav system, whatever) then it's more likely to happen.
- VR. We feel this is essential for an in-car product, and have no plans to shelve it.
- Tuner module. S3's sourcing has already found us a small number of modules - more than we could get ourselves. We're working on getting these out to the first people who are due them (ie, mk1->mk2 upgraders).
- Fast support. Whatever happened, support is likely to change; as we get bigger, with or without S3, the chances of getting people replying out of hours (etc) decrease. Nowadays, it's unusual for people to be working after 9pm - a couple of years ago we just used to work until about 3 or 4am and then sleep until midday... then again, me & mike (mostly mike ;) ) are in working to try and eradicate some USB problems users have had and it's past 9.30pm. As the empeg-car is a complex product, I would expect we'll be carrying on with the tech support for a while yet.

Hugo

This way, we get to do the fun bits, but it gets marketed by a company with clout

...just so long as it stays that way; I would be sad if the empeg brand name submerged.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I believe you on all those points, Hugo. I'm not worried.

But Frank's points about middle-management weenies and ISQ Quality programs are good ones. I'm currently working for a small-startup-then-we-got-bought-by-a-big-company operation, and I'll tell you, the TQM and middle-management stuff will drive you to suicide.

Fortunately, there's a grace period after the buy. You have, in my estimation, 6 months to a year before you have to start worrying about TQM stuff. Enjoy your freedom while you can, I say.

___________
Tony Fabris

Does this mean empeg would be some kind of R&D division within S3, with it's own budget?
I could live with this, as it will probably benefit the current empeg-owner's in future features for MK1 and MK2 (You've got to test new development somewhere, and hey, here are the critics).

As I suppose there are less than 500 MK1 units and less than a thousand MK2's, you could probably give us a tuner-module for free : <million dollars budget> - (1500 * $75) = <million dollars budget> ( just kiddin' :) )

It's just a shame you didn't release the source of the player before the take-over. Is this software now property of S3?

Frank van Gestel

Hehe, that one could be read two ways, yes.

Eat Thai, and build Empegs. I believe both things are good things.
Stay away from big suits anyway.

TommyE

Good thing I couldnt have them here in Norway afterall.

TommyE

Hugo -- I had thought of that before, but hadn't considered it in the light of the recent announcement, that is, that some massive electronics company could toss out a couple million to cook up a competing product and market it way cheaper than the empeg and basically stamp you out overnight.

So with the inevitability factor, I guess for future growth, it possibly had to be (could only have been?) fostered by a larger company.

The other unlikely alternative is that a bunch of VC's hand you a couple million to do the same thing yourselves...

Hope you're right about S3.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people.

I think this is where you are off. It's aimed at a small group of people now due only to it's incredibly high price tag. Do you think the folks at empeg set out with the idea "we're going to produce and market a product with the smallest area of interest"? No, that's jsut the way it had to be. As Rob said, it was inevitable that they either get bought up, or, in a much slower proccess, become a bigger company themselves. The buy enables them to get backing quicker and thus possibly lower the prices of the product. That will increase the interest.

Who knows, now we might see empegs in retail shops and dealers and car audio mags. I think this is a good thing.

Oh, and for now I'm going to take the lack of response to my question about charging for future upgrades as a sign that there might be a plan for it. As long as there are future upgrades, and they don't cost like $40 each, I won't mind.

DiGNAN

Do you think the folks at empeg set out with the idea "we're going to produce and market a product with the smallest area of interest"? No, that's just the way it had to be.

I do not totally agree with that. If the guys at empeg could make the same player at a fraction of the price it is now, they would probably add some extra features on user-request, which would make the player go up in price again.
I thought it was Hugo's aim to set up a personal high-quality music system. As his project evolved, requests from like-minded people came in to persuade hugo in creating some more units. I do not think it was Hugo's intention to conquer the world, although he has clearly put a mark on computer-history.

Please do not get me wrong; with my original post, I was just setting up some criticism for people to think about. I've seen enough action taken by the empeg-guys to believe that this is coming to a good end. After all, which parent would leave it's first-born to die a sudden death?



Frank van Gestel

For all the naysayers, consider this: the empeg guys may be secretly plotting the overthrow of S3, tricking them into being a fantastic organization with incredible products and top-notch customer support.

Perhaps more realistically, this becomes a golden chance for the empeg software to proliferate on all kinds of devices, whether portable gizmos like the PJB-100 or, heaven knows, some future cel-phone music device. The empeg-car player will almost certainly become cheaper and more widely available as it evolves, and that's a good thing. I paid a mint for my empeg-car player, and it was well worth it, but I would have been happier spending less. Furthermore, S3 can probably get us screen that are more readable in daylight and remote controls with meaningful legends. That ain't bad. Stretching a little, you can also imagine an integrated empire of MP3 products where Joe Consumer never has to deal with a PC. They're 3/4 of the way there already.

It's also in S3's interests to promote the empeg-car player as a development platform. It's all about lock-in. If a bunch of Internet enthusiasts crank out software to replace the boot logo, to do automatic volume adjustment, and heaven knows what else, that only helps to steer other users to the platform. Just because S3 is a big corporation, don't assume they'll naturally gravitate toward using Microsoft products (although it could still happen, of course).

Even if you're pessimistic, keep in mind that the empeg guys still have unvested stock options to keep them around for another few years.

Dan

I'd be willing to guess that a good majority of the users of this board are somehow involved with technology development, and we've all seen it before. Traditionally, when a talented group comes up with a good product and can take it end to end (concept > manufacturing), they spark the interest of bigger fish who do the same. Typically what happens is the upstart gets absorbed and the key creative personnel end up with two choices. They move into managerial/marketing roles or get fed up with all the BS and revert back to what they love. In both cases the early adopters are held onto for as long as cost effectiveness dictates, and are slowly phased into the new core product market.

However, Empeg, as a company has managed to fully develop a niche market from cradle to grave (with next to zero cadavers so far) and are virtually self supporting. The negative, as we all know, is the lack the volume to reach a mainstream price point and good penetration. This self sufficient entity is more likely to assume a divisional role in an acquisition than a cut 'n dry rape, pillage and plunder that many of you fear. In other words, from S3's standpoint, it would cost them more to micro manage Empeg into a slow bloated mess than to leave them alone and provide them with manufacturing support and IR&D funding for future key products.

Finally, if you look at the insanely low volumes (not to be harsh... it's good in this case) that have currently been produced, It would cost them orders of magnitude more money to support older products than to provide reduced cost replacements produced in volume. I'm sure if you looked at the long term projected sales of an empeg developed/S3 produced car player (these are deal makers), you'd quickly realize that the first couple thousand wouldn't make much of a dent.

So to make a short story longer, don't be upset when your MKI or II is no longer supported unless you get shafted out of the transition to the volume product. However, given the absurd level of dedication and customer devotion Rob, Hugo and everyone else has shown so far, it wouldn't occur to me that it was even an option.

Regardless of the outcome, I feel honored to have been part of this public beta trial (original registration #4041) and helped Empeg reach the level of success they have achieved so far. My only regret is I didn't have any stock options :D

#080000512 green 12GB

I just thought I'd point out to DWallach that empeg itself is already producing the AR panels and new remotes. This was planned before the S3 business. The rest of the stuff is good though.

DiGNAN

Well, I guess I am just agreeing with what everyone else has already said, but I have very mixed feelings about this one.

I want to congratulate the guys@empeg. They have all put in a lot of hard work to make a great product and deserve the money and stability that this should bring to empeg.

But... I would never have given S3 $1500+ of my money. I think the Rio line of products are gimmikie at best and complete junk at worst. If this thing was the 'riocar' I never would have looked at it seriously enough to have discovered the features that made it worth buying. I think a lot of us bought into an 'empeg philosophy' here (excellent support for a cool product and the ability to actually discuss the benefits of the product with the designers and owners of the company). I don't think I would buy a Mark2 now either, I would wait and see what happens with this whole thing.

Anyway, just my .02 and I am a pessimist anyway so hopefully I am completely wrong here.

-Mike

For all the naysayers, consider this: the empeg guys may be secretly plotting the overthrow of S3, tricking them into being a fantastic organization with incredible products and top-notch customer support.

How did you find out? :-)



--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I'm not aware of any plans to make upgrades chargeable - however, we did reserve the right to charge for them ourselves. If, for example, the upgrade incurrs licensing fees, then it's likely that we'll have to pass these on. This is no different to the pre-S3 scenario.

Hugo

We did get offers of money from VC's; we turned them down (& a lot more than "a couple million" was needed - production is expensive...).

From what I've heard from people in VC funded companies, the goal becomes the payback far too much (IPO, etc) as opposed to the product. With S3, they're in it to make good products that customers will choose over the competition's boxes - just like us. Both empeg & S3 are product-centric - the product is the ultimate goal, and this is why we didn't pick VC.

Hugo

I have to admit that when I first read the report of S3's involvement, I was a bit worried to say the least. However, the comments from the guys@empeg have eased my mind... I mean think about it... how much more defensive of empeg's (the company) interests are Hugo, Rob, Mike et al going to be when you see how worried the consumers are?!? I think the company is in safe hands... No doubt things will change, but if the guys@empeg are happy, then I have no reason to doubt their judgement (it's been pretty good so far!)

Oh, and a hint that I might be getting my tuner sooner rather than later makes me a lot happier too

Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...

It's just a shame you didn't release the source of the player before the take-over.

As Rob keeps saying, the player source code is our bread-and-butter. We're not actually in business just to make the car player hardware -- we're using it as leverage into other opportunities. It appears to have worked .

That said, I'd like to emphasise that we love the car player; we love you guys; and we're going to continue making the car player as long as we see a market for one. Our committment to this is unchanged (possibly even enhanced) by the S3 news.

But we're not (and never were) going to release the source code to the player software.


Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg

We don't think the Rio products that we developed/are developing are gimmicky, we think they're rather good!

If you won't buy a product because of the brand name then that's your call, but the fact of life is that hundreds of thousands of potential clients won't buy from empeg because they see it as too great a risk.

Rob

The flip side of this is that unknowledged consumers who know the Rio portable MP3 player by name and not much about it's features will see the empeg right next to it. And you can't say S3's products are crappy anymore, look at the empeg

Besides, I have one of their graphics cards, and it's worked great for me as long as I've had it. I've even tried and returned 3 others after being unimpressed with their performance.

I think this is good news. And sorry about the charging question, I figured that might happen someday so I was expecting it.

DiGNAN

This seems to be a contradiction to the empeg-car, which was aimed at a small group of people.

If we could have sold 100,000 car players last year I would have been a VERY happy man. As Matt said, we're not small through choice, we're small due to commercial realities. Maybe that should be "were" small now

they will probably be spending most of their time fulfilling that basic mission; that is, designing technology which is commercially attractive(cheap) and is in reach of as much people as possible

Yep, that AND absolutely leading edge. The Rio Receiver is a case in point - it's very cheap, very good quality and a really cool gadget to have about the house. We developed the technology before S3 became interested, and if circumstances had been different the same product may have been developed with the empeg badge - and, unfortunately, would have retailed for at least twice the SP. Quantity does not have to come at the expense of Quality - we can reach a wide market with a high quality product. Take a look at a Rio Receiver and tell me I'm lying.

Don't take this personal guys, I wish you all the best of luck with this venture, but you will soon discover the nature of working for big corporations

Thanks, but actually we've been working with S3 for several months. I know the empeg image may seem otherwise, but we're not a bunch of kids fresh out of college - many people here have held important positions with influential companies. Far from being incompatible with S3, our team culture and values are essential to the deal - S3 know how we work, and it is our way of getting results that has value for them.

Rob

You have, in my estimation, 6 months to a year before you have to start worrying about TQM stuff

We've already been working with S3 on a vaguely-exclusive basis for that long. We're not walking into a contract blind - you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would!) how many hours Steve and our lawyers have put into this deal.

When catching up with this thread I was, at first, quite confused with the image people are presenting of S3. Stepping back and looking from an independent perspective I guess S3 are indeed a large corporation and I am well aware of the stereotypical views that such entities attract (often with good reason).

From my personal perspective, however, I've drunk beer and eaten Thai food with four of S3's (very) senior executives and found them to be a thoroughly nice bunch of guys. They all have strong techie backgrounds, understand their products exceptionally well, and are people that I am willing to be my bosses. If half the scare stories I've read here were true I would not still be working for empeg.

Don't get the idea that we're a tiny team within a huge corporation - we're set to become one of the largest teams with wide ranging responsibilities in the core product line. That's not bad going for a two year old startup.

Rob

I don't think that would be a smart move. The Rio brand is extremely strong - and with a $10m advertising campaign recently announced, it's going to get stronger. Consider that Rio is the only brand EVER to attract a co-branding deal with Nike.

I don't think the brand is associated with poor products - the Rio 500 is still my choice of portable player (and not just because they gave me one *grin*) - and forthcoming products are going to take the world by storm. In common with empeg, S3 don't sacrifice features for cost - the Rio Receiver, for example, has Burr Brown DAC's which could easily have been substituted for cheaper components on such a low cost product.

This is turning into a commercial - I'll shut up

Rob

I'm just glad I will be able to laugh when I hear a sales man say, "this is the first true mp3 player for a car, it doesnt require a cd it actually reads from a hard drive", while he's pointing at a box with RIO on it.

He'll be closer to the truth than the other vendors, though. On the plane today, in their duty free catalogue, I read that the I2Go EGO was the world's first MP3 player designed especially for use in a car. Way to go, I2Go!

Rob

If you won't buy a product because of the brand name then that's your call, but the fact of life is that hundreds of thousands of potential clients won't buy from empeg because they see it as too great a risk.

Yes and that's the sad state of most consumers, afraid to try something from the small companies that are truly good and have the best support.

I know this takeover has probably been awhile in the works, and given what I know of the people at Empeg, I wouldn't see them giving up the ghost too quickly. Time will tell.

Congrats guys.

#090000695 Mk2 BLUE 12Gig

I've now had a quick chat on the telephone to Hugo about the acquisition...

This supports the very point that many of us are concerned about. Let's see you "have a quick chat on the telephone" with the CEO of Dell, Gateway, Oracle, or... S3.

I have felt from the beginning that I was part of a very close-knit community with empeg and this bbs. Can it remain that way now that guys@empeg aren't just our guys any more, but are now answerable to higher-ups with agendas of their own?

I have to believe that the input and commentary from the users of this bbs has been of considerable value to empeg. Will S3 appreciate that? Will we still have any say in the future development of our beloved toys?

Having gone through more than a few corporate takeovers, I always wait for the new owners to say "We like the way you're running things. We're not going to change anything." and then I tighten my belt because I know the bad times they are a'coming.

tanstaafl.



"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

It'd be a shame for that to go to waste in future products, wouldn't it? :)

But the really scary part is... it could.

As explanation by example... the most recent corporate takeover of the radio station where I work was by the corporation that owns the greatest number of radio stations anywhere in the world -- nearly 1,000 by last count. The corporation also owns one of the better-known radio automation companies. (This is the hardware/software that is kind of like empeg/emplode on steroids -- it manages and plays all the music, the commercials, the announcer voice tracks, and accommodates the live announcer stuff as well.) At the time of the takeover, we had considerable money (hundreds of thousands of dollars) and time (several man-years) in a competing automation system which, by any objective standard was superior, both in capabilities and ease of use.

Guess what we're using now. Maybe in the long run the Corporate dictators will be proven correct, and the benefits of standardization will outweigh the disadvantages of reduced capabilities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that things change when other people with different agendas start calling the shots.

And by the way -- I fervently hope that all you guys@empeg are getting absolutely, filthy rich over this! You have worked so hard and done such an extraordinary job over the last couple of years, nobody deserves it more than you. Hugo, get rid of that Miata and go get that Ferrari you've always wanted. Give the Miata to Rob -- I get the feeling he doesn't like Ferraris. "(PS. I'm at home, I'm not officially representing the company right now, and I'm in a bad mood because Michael took Mikka by 7/1000ths in the last 3 minutes of qualifying)." Isn't it amazing how your words can come back to haunt you?

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

well here is my whole take on the merger/takeover.. I am a young gun by all means (20) and well it sounds to me like the good ole boy feeling of the empeg family is being threatend by the evil conglomerations of the corp world.. all i got to say is this smells like the same fish the good ole *nix hackers were screaming and crying about some years ago. And look what linux (the thing they were bitching and crying about) has done to the world. same thing here guys just on a smaller scale. I belive times are changing and all we can do is sit down shut up and enjoy the ride. I mean hugo rob and the gang are an awesome group of people and im sure they wont want to see there sweat blood and tears go to the shiter so fast. Will it happen eventually..only time will tell for now i say share in rejoice with the guys man they worked there ass off and should enjoy every second of what there spoils are. (on a personal note i envy u guys as i myself am attempting to rule the world, give me another year or so) As for S3 closing the source and changeing everything all i can say is from a bus. point of view it would be STUPID to close up anymore access to source code.. think about it like this.. They tookover empeg for its intellectual capital not its market share. what do you think constitues empegs intellectual capital.. the 8 or so guys in the uk are def a big part of it at least 70% or so. What of the other 30% u ask.. well my reply is cruise around the forums..the rest of the intellectual capital is US the USERS/Coders/Hackers of the empeg community (note i dont think i have done [censored] to help out empeg as the only coding i can do is morse). I m just trying to point out that if S3 did make a "evil corp" mistake by closing source they would be ass out a talent pool that is only GROWING, so what some 18 yearold punk might make some super cool program that s3 wants to add to the whole package, since the source is free that he used to make the program his program has to be to (correct me if im wrong im not a lawyer) there for all S3 has to do is give credit for the add on and possibly cut the kid a lil deal and hire him for more deving.. WIN WIN situation as for service @empeg IT CAN NEVER GET AS BAD AS AOL. :) haha my .02
congrats empeg
*and if a competetor was to use some code they to have to credit and open there source to correct?*

Your favorite mispelling young customer
dre

Im as confused as a baby in a topless bar...

Ever heard the saying 'the exception that proves the rule'? I agree, the Rio Radio or whatever they are calling it looks cool, but if I didn't know it's background from this BBS I would have assumed it was probably a cheesy little mp3 player with 16Megs of flash that happened to have a tuner included. It is not that I wouldn't buy a product from S3 because of their name as much as I never would have looked to them for a high end car stereo because I associate them with cheap video cards and mp3 players that only hold 45 minutes worth of music. I certainly hope that you guys will change that stereotype.

I do see your point though about people not buying from empeg bacause they don't know the brand and that is a shame.

-Mike

I fully agree with your sentiment tanstaafl. I'ts like part of the family is leaving to work in the big city.
I hope the 'suits' at S3 take note of the achievements which empeg have made.
-successfull design of a ground breaking product
-managing and planning its development, gracefully handling any shortcomings and problems.
-sticking steadfastly to their ideals and the main purpose of the product.
-using that product to springboard and generate future business (almost too sucessfully? )
-marketing the product internationally over the internet and maintaining a helpful and efficient after sales service practice.

and most importantly

-listening to thier consumer base, regardless of criticisms.

Empeg has repeatedly indicated its gratitude to all the 'early adopters' (sounds like a 'Furby' focus group!)
without the BBS and its members empeg would not have developed as it has.
Let's hope S3 share the sentiment and follow the leader!

Murray 06000047
____________________

Didn't the RIO people sell out and incorporate SDMI after
being sued by the RIAA? If so, does this affect the
likelihood of the Empeg being made SDMI compliant?

Paul

Damn good question! Hugo? Rob? Comments?

___________
Tony Fabris

My understanding is this:

SDMI isn't relevant to the car player, because music is copied to it from a PC, not from another digital audio device. This process is specifically excluded from SDMI regulations by the Home Recording Act. Since the car player cannot be used as a source for digital audio recording (at least, not with any software that we supply) this isn't a problem either.

In any case, SDMI is a legal issue which affected empeg in exactly the same way as S3.

Rob

That brings up another question. I recall that at one point you were considering making it possible to take tracks off the player. Is this still a possibility?

DiGNAN

Good article about S3 (Sonicblue)...

http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2000/11/01/technology/sonicblue/

- Jon

"If there had been a really compelling reason to use WinCE, we probably would have done it. It would have had to be *really* compelling, though - we didn't use linux specifically to make it easy to hack on, it was just the best OS for the job.

Bear in mind that the Rio/Dell box we did for them runs Linux, and we have a lot of knowledge on the embedded linux front. It'd be a shame for that to go to waste in future products, wouldn't it? :)"

*sigh*

Please don't be offended, but that sounds an awful lot like waffling to me, which probably means something along the lines of "We'd like to keep using Linux on our products because that's where *our* expertise is, but since it's now S3, if they decide to dictate to us how we build the products, we go along with it."

And don't forget that a great big "compelling reason" to go totally closed, purely MS in so many companies, even technical ones, is "because management said so because some MS guy took them all out to a really expensive lunch and told them how happy it would make them if they dictated that the entire company runs MS products."

I at least hope that S3 realizes that a "compelling reason" at least some of us bought Empegs is because of its openness and hackability.

No, it sounds just like he meant it. He's saying that:
a) Linux was the best OS for the job
b) Linux was the OS they were experienced with
c) it wouldn't be wise for S3 to start making them use an OS that would both limit them in terms of application and in the talents of their newly acquired team (empeg)
d) S3 didn't make them use WinCE on the Rio Reciever (you saw that, right?)

When I realized d), I became a bit more impressed with S3. I was suprised when I saw a company not going for the standard, thus crippling their own products.

But don't get me wrong, I think WinCE is an okay OS for some uses. I've been using it (at a user level) for almost 4 years now on 2 different machines (one of the first WinCE PDA's, a Compaq Companion, and my HP Jornada), and I like many aspects of it. It's a great way to keep the functionality of Windows in a very compact form. While it has its bugs (I think it crashes more than 98 does!), it does its job pretty well.

I think S3 realizes that WinCE is not what this company does, and it certainly wouldn't help with products like the Reciever or the empeg car. Way to go S3.

DiGNAN

Yep, there wasn't anything hidden in Hugo's statement. S3 (SONICblue now I guess) have acquired a development team, and that team specialise in certain areas - and achieve great results. There's no point in acquiring a functional team simply to destroy it.

In any case, although this is news (and maybe a shock) to many of you, we've known about it for months and we know exactly what products we're developing quite far into the future. In fact we've already started developing some of them. I'm sure our embedded Linux expertise is going to prove highly useful.

Rob

As of 21:00 last night the ownership of empeg transfered to S3.

We had a lot of fun developing niche products for interesting people like you, and now we're going to have a lot of fun developing widely distributed products (also for interesting people like you). Keep the feedback coming, your opinions and suggestions will continue to count!

Rob

All I can say is that if there are any competitors for products that you guys develop in the future, you can be sure that I am more likely to buy the one you guys made. I don't think I'm alone on that either.

Just a few questions:
1) Just to clarify, S3 is still planning on supporting and possibly produce empeg car players?

2) Any idea on when you could tell us on stuff you're developing? or is it quite some time till those things are done?

kudos to you guys

DiGNAN

The car player was one of the major reasons for the takeover - S3 will continue to produce and develop it.

Sorry, I can't tell you about new products that we're working on - watch this space!

Rob

Sonic Blue is a *really* weak name. I don't understand these companies that establish a brand name and then change it, confusing everyone. At work, we use Netscape server products, which are now called IPlanet server products. Who the heck recognizes the name IPlanet versus the established Netscape name? It's mind-boggling.

And Sonic blue just sounds goofy, like the one guy said about the Subaru color.

"Hey, this is my new Sonic Blue Empeg."

"But it's not blue, it's amber."

"Uh... yeah, it's my amber Sonic Blue Empeg."

GUH!

-Tony
MkII #554

"I don't think that the Empeg brand will be disappearing any time soon"

Already has -
http://www.sonicblue.com/default.asp?menu=Company
has it spelled as MPEG all the way through, which is a bit lame.

As an owner of a Mk I and Mk II, I'm extremely happy to see funding and support coming in from S3 / SonicBlue - all the best to you guys, and
_Welcome_ to the HELL that is volume :o)
Do you get access to fab space / ASIC teams now? Ooh, the possibilities!
(I guess this means the end of cycling round to collect products with double-digit serial numbers. Oh well, it's a small price to pay :)

Steve.

That's web contractors for you. It should be fixed within the next couple of hours.

Rob

Greetings!

You know you are in trouble when they can't even spell your company's name correctly on their new web site... And no, it is not a typo - they do it a number of times within the page / site.

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)

The important name in this case is Rio - thats the well known brand. Few people have heard of S3, and those that have think of graphics cards.

Rob

Yeah, we just discussed this further down the thread. Its being fixed now.

Rob

So, the RIOcar then?

Sounds kooky. But then again, it's still a kick-ass product WGAF what it's called right? (although if they put it on the faceplate)

Actually, let's not start that discussion again then....

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

I've been keeping quiet on this subject thus far, mainly for two reasons

1) No one cares what I think.
2) I've got no brain.

Seriously though, I don't see why this takeover/investment/acquisition should be a bad combination.

Do people really distrust Hugo, Rob, Steve et. al. to make such a bad decision? Do we really think that they've not noticed the way things change when small companies are eaten by big companies?

[imaginary conversation]
US: Don't do it - big companies change small companies
Empeg: Oh, bugger, we'd not thought of that - let's not bother.
[/imaginary conversation]

I think that you can see where that's going .... (*grin*).

Personal service can't last forever. Without trying to be antagonistic, the cracks were starting to show in empeg's support (although not on this BBS particularly) - I really believe that this is simply due to the high number of issues:people ratio and a desire to innovate and design rather than to support and sell.

Don't get me wrong - this is NOT a bad thing - I know hundreds of fantastic people who are just the same - it's the old mathmatics principle:

'Working out HOW to solve the problem is interesting - actually solving it is simply number crunching'

Anyway, that's just my 2p on the subject, but I really just want to end on one point:

"Congratulations Empeg (Yes, All of you) - You deserve success!"

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

My guess is that it's a spell checker mistake. They've probably never had to type "empeg" into anything before, so it's converting it to the usual term "MPEG". I don't think it was intentional.

Still, as the son of an editor for National Geographic, I know what it's like when you don't proof-read your work (you would not believe how much red ink was on my school reports as a child ).

ps-I think they need better site organization, it took a while just to find out where the Rio products are listed. it's not very clear on the www.riohome.com page. I was also suprised to see that my video card (Viper V770), which is still pretty damn good, is only going for $60. Who needs a $500 voodoo card when mine's doing perfectly well?

DiGNAN

In reply to:

---

As of 21:00 last night the ownership of empeg transfered to S3.

---

Congrats guys! My best wishes are with you guys, and I hope that we can continue to contribute "product research" :)

-mark
(not to mention bug lists:) )

MK2: 36gb
Tivo: 90gb
CPU: 120gb
...I think drive manufacturers love me!

The important name in this case is Rio - thats the well known brand. Few people have heard of S3, and those that have think of graphics cards.

When I explained it to my sister last night, not only did she not have clue who S3 were, she didn't know about Diamond or Rio.

She had heard of empeg though, just like the rest of my family.

So, I suppose that based on a small sample empeg has a more well known brand name than Rio :-)

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

That was what I thought, too.

Everyone can associate [empeg] with music/a music format. But less people can guess what RIO should be. (even if it's been quite successfull)

Any thoughts about keeping the name "empeg" as brand for all mp3-devices (including the RIO-players)?
I think that would be the better way, wouldn't it?

TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143