#214133 - 23/04/2004 14:41
The Patriot Act in action
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770
This is Bush's legacy; the wholesale destruction of our civil rights.
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#214135 - 23/04/2004 15:24
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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The bit I found most interesting.
As she walked away from the table, she continued to repeat it to herself: "We are at war, we are at war. How can they not understand this?"
Sounds slightly delusional to me.
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Andy M
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#214136 - 23/04/2004 16:29
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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It is just an example, but one that seriously pissed me off. It is news to me that they can hold you without cause now. 200 Years of legal protection down the drain.
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#214137 - 23/04/2004 18:40
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
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#214138 - 23/04/2004 19:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The appropriate text of the Constitution (Amendment IV) states: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I guess the issue is what's reasonable.
(BTW, has anyone else noticed that the entire Constitution is rife with extraneous commas?)
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Bitt Faulk
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#214139 - 23/04/2004 19:33
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#214140 - 24/04/2004 12:27
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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I just refinanced a home.
Turns out the Patriot Act paperwork bureacracy has filtered into this as well.
I had to sign a Patriot Act document saying I was who I said I was and providing Xerox copies of my passport -- just in case some terrorist had decided that secretly assuming the burden of my home debt would further his nefarious ends.
What the hell are people thinking?
"May I help you?"
"Yes, I'd like 2 tons of fertilizer, some surface-to-air missiles, a couple of radio-controlled detonators, a jumbo jet filled with fuel, and ... um, would it be OK if I refinanced your house for you?"
"Uh, I can't help you with the high explosives, but I'll take you up on that whole house thing. I sure hate making house payments every month!"
"No problem, you capitalist swine, that's just part of our jihad against The Great Satan. We want to make sure you are all well-housed before we kill all you Westerners."
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
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#214141 - 24/04/2004 12:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I had to sign a Patriot Act document saying I was who I said I was I just asked my wife about this. She had an interesting take on it.
It's a proof-of-ID form, something that you already have to provide during the loan process, so you're right, it's redundant beauracratic paperwork. However, it has an interesting benefit...
Before this form, your proof of identity happens at the end of the loan process, at the moment when you sign with the notary. With this form, you have to show your ID at the beginning of the process instead.
My wife says that three times this year so far, it's allowed her to discover that the people had expired IDs. Because it was discovered at the beginning of the process instead of the end, it was discovered soon enough for the borrower to correct the problem and save the loan before the lock expired.
I mean, I agree with you, I'm not saying everything about the Patriot act is bunnies and rainbows, I just wanted to bring up an interesting side-effect it had.
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#214142 - 24/04/2004 17:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Before this form, your proof of identity happens at the end of the loan process, at the moment when you sign with the notary. With this form, you have to show your ID at the beginning of the process instead.
Funny you should mention this.
That's exactly not how it happened with me.
Two days before I met with the notary (which was three months after I applied for the loan!) they called me up and said "The notary comes day after tomorrow. Be sure to bring two Xerox copies of your drivers license and two Xerox copies of your Social Security card or passport."
Two days later the notary said, "Hey, what are those things for? I just need to see your driver's license. I guess you're supposed to send those copies back to the bank with your loan package or something."
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#214143 - 24/04/2004 23:47
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Right, my point being that the photo ID part (the driver's license) was, until now, not requested from you until that last step.
If your driver's license had been expired, and if your loan officer was on his/her toes, the act of having to supply the copy of it at the beginning of the process means they would have caught the problem early.
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#214144 - 25/04/2004 03:22
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan? 
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#214145 - 25/04/2004 09:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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addict
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan?
Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information, just a different endorsement or class printed on it.
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Heather
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony
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#214146 - 25/04/2004 11:21
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan? "Driver's License" and "Photo ID" are usually interchangeable terms. When someone says that they need to see your "Driver's License", in almost all cases they mean "Driver's License or equivalent photo identification that's considered valid and legal in this state". (Unless of course you've just been pulled over by the state police, in which case they really mean driver's license.)
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#214147 - 25/04/2004 14:21
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Right, my point being that the photo ID part (the driver's license) was, until now, not requested from you until that last step.
Tony, I think you skimmed my post quickly and missed my point entirely.
So, just to clarify.
They did not ask for any ID at the beginning of the loan process.
They did not ask for any ID during the entire 3 month period they were processing the loan.
They did ask for all kinds of ID suddenly, and almost without warning, at the very last minute, on the very last day, at closing, with the notary, and in a very redundant, useless, and extremely bureaucratic manner.
I.e., no chance of catching problems early.
This paperwork served no potential useful purpose whatsoever.
And, repeating for the fourth time, they DID NOT ask for any ID at the beginning of the process, but instead wanted ridiculous amounts of ID at the very last minute as well as a Patriot Act Declaration.
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#214148 - 25/04/2004 15:50
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Heather]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information, just a different endorsement or class printed on it. Heh, this (in conjuction with SSN) is so different from universal ID card used in many European countries (including mine)...
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#214149 - 25/04/2004 15:59
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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They did not ask for any ID at the beginning of the loan process. I thought you said you had to provide a photo ID for the Patriot Act form. You're telling me that they didn't have you fill out the patriot act form until the very end of the process? That's odd.
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#214150 - 25/04/2004 16:26
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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You're telling me that they didn't have you fill out the patriot act form until the very end of the process?
True!
That's odd.
Well, I think the Patriot Act itself is odd. So it seems fitting.
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#214151 - 25/04/2004 16:50
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bonzi]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Heh, this (in conjuction with SSN) is so different from universal ID card used in many European countries
No, Driver's Licenses are issued by state. So they wouldn't become a universal ID card unless (1) states were mandated to share information on these cards, (2) and unless social security numbers were required to get a card, (3) and unless digital thumbprints, signatures, and photos became mandatory for the cards, and unless (4) they were a mandatory form of ID for such things as boarding planes, or crossing state borders, or were documents required to be upon your person in case of arrest or surprise gestapo inspections.
Hey, wait a minute....
Come to think of it.....
Most of these changes have been slipped in one at a time over the past 10-12 years!
Items (1) and (2) went in under the guise of preventing "deadbeat dads" (men who leave the state and don't pay their child support).
Item (3) went in under the guise of "modernizing" as well as using the thumbprint for some anti-criminal or anti-deadbeat-dad justifications.
A lot of things in Item (4) took off after 9/11.
I guess all we need to make it a universal ID is some law that says it's illegal to be out in public without carrying one. And the link which started this thread makes it clear that that is coming soon. Already it's grounds for suspicion not to be carrying one. ("Are you trying to hide something.")
Looks like George Orwell might only have been off by 20 years.
"We have never been at war with Oceania."
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#214152 - 25/04/2004 22:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Heather]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Does this mean that only drivers can apply for a loan?
Most states, (maybe all) have non driver ID's issued by the DMV with the same information...
For sure in Calif. The ID card is layed out identical to a DL except the words "Drivers License" are replaced with "Identification Card".
The other difference is the inclusion of this note on the ID card.
"This identification card is issued solely for identification
purposes. It does not establish eligibility fo employment,
voter regestration, or public benifits. "
Why would they omit that on a DL card? Seems like it would apply same same.
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Glenn
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#214153 - 26/04/2004 11:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ninti]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Every time I read something on Alternet, it really pisses me off about things going on in the U.S. I sure hope that the ACLU gets this thing scraped.
I think if I were there - I would have called 911 ASAP. It would be interesting to complicate the situation for them. After all - with behavior like that it would seem more like a hold up than alegitimate police investigation to a simple citizen like myself. Could you imagine a shoot out between the poilicemen? That movie comes to mind (Enemy of the State with Will Smith)
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RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
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#214154 - 16/12/2005 21:25
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Senate Rejects Extension of Patriot Actand thank God for that, too. Yahoo News LinkQuote:
WASHINGTON - In a stinging defeat for President Bush, Senate Democrats blocked passage Friday of a new Patriot Act to combat terrorism at home, depicting the measure as a threat to the constitutional liberties of innocent Americans.
CNN Link
I expect some decent coverage to show up here soon.
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#214155 - 16/12/2005 21:51
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: Robotic]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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I just read about this also. Very good news as far as I'm concerned.
I wonder how many people this thing has screwed over, over the last few years. I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the ratio of successful uses of the act to instances in which it has fucked peoples lives up is pretty bad.
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#214156 - 16/12/2005 22:54
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm personally of the opinion that it doesn't make any difference if it was "successful" at all; it's still a violation of people's rights, even if those people are criminals.
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Bitt Faulk
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#214157 - 16/12/2005 23:18
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: Dylan]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
Just look at the second amendment. It's been infringed for 70 years. Ironically, many people who are against the Patriot Act are for violating the 2nd amendment to the Constitution.
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#214158 - 17/12/2005 00:02
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand why the legality of the Patriot Act hasn't been tested in court. Doesn't it violate the Constitution and nothing trumps the Constitution except for an ammendment to it?
Just look at the second amendment. It's been infringed for 70 years. Ironically, many people who are against the Patriot Act are for violating the 2nd amendment to the Constitution.
Or how about how the same people that blamed 9/11 on Bush because he "faiied to connect the dots" and "it happened on his watch" then go and take away the means to actually connect those "dots". These are the same laws that law enforcement has been able to use on organized crime for years. Simple concepts like a roaming wire tap. On December 31st, the "wall" that forbids the CIA from sharing information with the FBI (which could have prevented 9/11) goes back into effect. And all of these a-holes voted for the thing after 9/11 because going into the 2002 elections, they dared not vote against it. But now, even the headline admits that they don't see this as a hinderance to national security, they see this as a "stinging blow to Bush."
Like Iraq, all they see is political gain (both when they all voted for it and when they opposed it). I have more respect for the guys that opposed either the Patriot Act or the war in Iraq from the beginning than these spineless twerps who wet their finger to see which way the wind is blowing.
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#214159 - 17/12/2005 00:09
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I wonder how many people this thing has screwed over, over the last few years. I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the ratio of successful uses of the act to instances in which it has fucked peoples lives up is pretty bad.
I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. Personally, I've heard of plenty of cases where it has been successful (and I assume there are plenty more we'll never hear about for 30 years) and very few cases of someone seriously wronged. And I imagine the number of people saved from the prevented attacks far out numbers the people denied due process. I'm sure we can both dig up news stories (nature of press coverage being I'd have to dig harder, but I'm sure it's there) but I doubt either one of us would find everything.
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Brad B.
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#214160 - 17/12/2005 00:14
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I'm personally of the opinion that it doesn't make any difference if it was "successful" at all; it's still a violation of people's rights, even if those people are criminals.
This is a fundamental difference between say the Bush administration and the Clinton administration. I, the Bush administration and most conservatives don't see al-Qaeda as criminals. They are the enemy. They aren't partaking in acts of crime. They have declared war on our nation and have been engaged in acts of war.
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Brad B.
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#214161 - 17/12/2005 01:46
Re: The Patriot Act in action
[Re: bbowman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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From alternet: Quote:
The USA PATRIOT Act ... (the name is actually an acronym: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act.")
Pah, there's one of those $10,000 names again. Not only does it fit the criteria of coherent acronym and full name, but both simultaneously contain doublespeak telling us it's patriotic and strengthening to undermine American freedom in the hopeless pursuit of terrorism. Terrorists will just communicate with stegonographically encrypted messages and never be found.
Quote:
"We were never at war with Oceana"
And that war certainly wasn't based on bad intelligence. Oh wait, it was, but it was still a worthwhile war. Sheesh.
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#214162 - 17/12/2005 02:13
Re: The Patriot Act in action - UPDATE
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
This is a fundamental difference between say the Bush administration and the Clinton administration. I, the Bush administration and most conservatives don't see al-Qaeda as criminals. They are the enemy. They aren't partaking in acts of crime. They have declared war on our nation and have been engaged in acts of war.
Brad, I know you are doing your best to hold up this facade of the BBS' notable on-line Bush operative, but, after months of agonizing, I just have to confess and let you know... the jig is up, so to speak.
Fair warning time: It has been pretty clear to me since 2003 that you are an agent of a foreign power, and in early 2004 I sent a communique to that effect to the FBI. I think it is fair to assume that any electronic communications you have had since then -- whether on this BBS or on your telephone -- have been captured by the NSA. You might infer some false sense of security from the fact that you haven't been arrested and handcuffed yet, but, actually, arresting and charging people, well, that's not their style.
Anyhow, as much as some people here on the board disagree with you, we/I have come to regard you as a familiar piece of the BBS landscape. The thought of you spending the next twenty years in Guantanamo as a result of your ineffectual (I mean, they taped every word!) anti-US efforts just doesn't sit well.
There's still time. Open 24 hours: http://www.dwtunnel.com/customs.html
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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