I took a 2k mile road trip this past week (DC to Boston to Detroit to DC) and noticed that if I played my empeg for several hours at a time, I'd eventually get 'glitching': what sounded like records being 'scratched' at full volume (usually much louder than the music). The sound is somewhat painful. When I take out the empeg it's usually very warm, but I lean towards 'hot' instead of 'warm.' I let the unit cool for a while then play it again and it seems to work fine. On the same note, when it's cold, it seems to pop in and out of spitting out sound. When I first start my car, it sometimes turns on and off (at around 30 second intervals) for 3-4 minutes. I know the amp is on because I still hear the alternator whine.. I'm not really sure what to do about this.. Has anyone else had this problem before, or know what I can do about it?

Sounds like a wiring problem or a docking connector problem. Did you do the install yourself? Did you get one of the soldered sleds or the crimped sleds?

___________
Tony Fabris

No, I reckon this sounds like a temperature-sensitive RAM part that is affecting the playback. Timings of these chips can change at the limits of the chip's specified operating range. Unless you specify MIL-spec parts, you won't escape temperature sensitivity.

Empeg seems to have suffered from a bad batch of Siemens RAM parts. What you should do is get the thing to stutter at high temperature, then pull it and get it inside to AC power and conenct it to a terminal. Rut the RAM test from boot (the CTRL-T trick) and report the results to support@empeg.com.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Some of his description, though (static, crackling, alternator whine, dropouts) sounded like wiring trouble. Perhaps he has both problems?

___________
Tony Fabris

Take the empeg, plug it into a serial port and open up a hyperterminal session. Set the empeg to play everything on your player randomly and let it run for several hours. Then take a look at the output from the empeg. This will help confirm if it is a heat related problem. I had a problem with my board and the ram test never turned up anything wrong.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

Do I need to install anything special, like a developer kernel? I'm playing the mp3s right now, hopefully I'll be able to replicate this problem even though it's not quite the same environment (it should be able to bleed off heat quite easily out in the open). I'm going to try to mimick the car a bit by placing a large book on top of the unit.. I'll get back to you guys in a few hours. :)

Mine would replicate the problem fine, I didnt have to put a book on it to make it heat up. You don't need the developer kernel to run the memory test. I just played mp3s for a few hours.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

I played it all day yesterday in the office, no messages in hyperterminal, minor glitching.

Well, as an alternative, cover it (as you suggested), run it till it stutters, then power cycle it, CTRL-T it to try a RAM test instead. Maybe this will generate some output.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Are you sure that the files you have encoded don't have errors in them? Is there only glitches in certain files? If the player isn't rebooting itself, it may not be a hardware problem. Try to make a note of where the glitches occur and listen to those files again. Are the glitches in the same place?

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

I have my empeg in a very tight installation and had the unit reboot and lock up several times while in this hot condition.
and let me tell you it gets too damn hot! I am very educated in electronics and if theres one thing I know it's HEAT KILLS ELECTRONIC Equip!!!
A curious question I kept asking myself, and now I must ask someone from empeg...... Why put a fan mount in the top cover and not put the fan??? not an impressive move on empegs part in my opinion. I am not interested in the heat specs empeg lists in the manual. If it's too hot to touch and hold your hand on (as mine was).... then it's too hot!!!
anyhow I aquired my own fan to fit the holes on the top of the unit and my troubles went away. I am thinking that empeg must do something about this at some point.
It's only gonna get hotter when you add your second drive.

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

Greetings!

Hm... I have two drives, and mine has never gotten too hot to touch. Could there be a hardware problem?

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)

The fan isn't fitted because it isn't needed - we've never had any heat related problems. I've never known a unit get too hot to touch, although they can get pretty warm in use (especially if mounted adjacent to a heater or heater hoses).

I am not interested in the heat specs empeg lists in the manual

Maybe you should be interested in them - we don't print them just for fun.

Rob

Bet you didn't read the mounting & ventilation requirements, either. So if you are an engineer, then why have you not bothered to install within spec? This makes any potential failure your own responsibility - I doubt the warranty would cover failure given an installation that does not comply with the basic mounting requirements.

I also have a tight installation, with two drives (and a compact amp in close proximity!) and the unit still has sufficient ventilation and does not get too hot at all. In fact it runs hotter on the bench on AC power - the unit is definitely cooler on withdrawal from the sled.

Have you mounted your unit over the heater? With no ventilation? Have you obstructed the airflow to the unit's ventilation holes?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

What did you hook the fan up to?

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

I did read them.... But when you have a 1 1/2 DIN mounting hole and you need to mount the empeg and an EQ.... Heat builds up. I live in Florida- Don't use heaters here. And what I said was: the unit gets too hot to HOLD your hand on. And it does!! (before the fan installation of course) You also have an MK1 -(Not sure of the differences) anyhow you all get so defensive. Don't get me wrong I love the Empeg!!! see some of my earlyer posts. It just needs a fan in some installations.
It's better to err on the side of caution and add the fan than not. Cooler tempertures will also aid in the life of all componets affected. I connected the fan to the incomming accessory lead and ground.

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

Why do you need an additional EQ unit?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

The EQ in the Empeg is to bulky and difficult to administer.
I also wanted to be able to use one central EQ for all of the Video feeds and alternative aux inputs.

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

Here is the pic of the install.

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

There are occasional spontaneous reboots as well. The glitching I'm pretty sure is not mp3 based because I've never heard the glitches on the mp3s on my computer, plus if I rewind and try to hear the glitch again, sometimes it's not there, sometimes it's different sounding, etc.. The other problem is the locking up issue - it's only happened a handful of times (maybe 3 or 4 on my 2000 mile trip) but it just hangs in the middle of a song or when I attempt to change songs. When I reboot the unit, it will take a very long time (~20 seconds?) on the 'Building Music Databases' section. Do I have a hardware problem here?

:(

Well, given that the ventilation aperture in the sled and the vent holes in the empeg are on the top, don't you think it's a bit silly to obstruct the convection path out of the head unit by sticking the EQ unit above it? Blimey, no wonder it overheats !

Can't you put the EQ under the empeg instead?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

support@empeg.com

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

When I reboot the unit, it will take a very long time (~20 seconds?) on the 'Building Music Databases' section.

This problem will go away if you hook up emplode and do a re-synch. It has something to do with your database in flash memory being corrupt and having to rebuild it from the hard drive each time you reboot instead of flash. Or something like that.

tanstaafl.


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I'm not sure, but the spontaneous reboots sound like a hardware problem. Contact support@empeg.com and they will help you find out for sure.

Sean

Empeg 12 gig green 080000078

There is exactly 1 centimeter between the top of the empeg sled (the player also has some space from the top of the sled internally due to the spring detents) This space however is irrelevant because I should not have to treat this head unit any differently than any other car stereo out there. (I would not have these issues with a Kenwood, Sony Etc.)
Not to dismiss that the Empeg is a different animal that requires different specs, I realize it is different and therefore in "my opinion" requires more cooling. And I did look at the manual for installation instructions. The manual only references mounting angle, Orientation and measurements...... Nothing about any clearances for temperature considerations. a scary quote from the manual....

"The unit has a solid-state internal fuse. if this is tripped, disconnect the unit from the power supply and leave for a few minutes to allow the unit to reset, and check the unit works with the mains adaptor before trying it again in the car. If the solid state fuse trips, a faint "hot electrical" smell may be detected - this is Normal."

What??? Normal??? a few minutes to reset? or is it cool?
As I said before - this unit needs a fan installed from the factory, as "some" installations will prevent adequate ventilation as specified in the manual.
Specs in the manual state 55 deg. C (or 131 Deg F) for maximum operating temperature. A car in the sun on any 90 deg F day will get hotter than that inside before you even get in and turn the empeg on and generate even more heat regardless of ventilation. There is also no mention of MTBF (mean time between failure) in the manual. I am sure a cooler unit is a happier unit and will last longer.
Plus it no longer locks up, crashes or reboots.
Soooooo…. the empeg needs a fan.
Not hostile..... it is just my opinion.


12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

In a certain way I agree that your install needs more cooling than the usual ones because you live in a terribly hot city. That's the point here, I think. Most Empegs get sold in Europe, where such temperatures are not that usual. So, most Empegs will never go through such extreme conditions. But in Miami, or any other place where heat is sometimes overwhelming (I really don't like heat. I lived in Brasil for two years and had enough) some additional cooling may be mandatory.

This space however is irrelevant because I should not have to treat this head unit any differently than any other car stereo out there. (I would not have these issues with a Kenwood, Sony Etc.)

Actually the empeg runs a lot cooler than many other head units - and MUCH cooler than a head with an internal amp (if you were to use that amp). I've burned a finger really badly on a well known branded CD head with 4x45W outputs - but it wasn't faulty, it just got hot.

If the solid state fuse trips, a faint "hot electrical" smell may be detected - this is Normal." What??? Normal??? a few minutes to reset? or is it cool?

I don't think you quite understand what that means - this is a very cool feature of the player! If you manage to blow the fuse (e.g. by shorting something out, or other such problem) you don't have to replace anything - you just wait for it to reset. This kind of fuse works by getting very hot when it trips, hence the smell. Thats how ALL solid state fuses work - you wait a few minutes, they cool down, and reset.

To repeat myself, the player doesn't need a fan - we've never had a temperature related failure. Not one.

Plus it no longer locks up, crashes or reboots.

Your player was doing that and you didn't contact support?? They don't do that! We have hundreds of players in southern California, Florida and Arizona and no problems reported - obviously something was amiss with yours. It's a shame you chose to open it up, fit a fan and invalidate the warranty!

Rob

Most Empegs get sold in Europe, where such temperatures are not that usual

Most car players go to the US, and of those 35% go to California, 11% to Texas and a sizeable number to Florida, Nevada and other rather warm states.

Rob

You're missing the point.
This is a Standard Install into a 2000 Dodge durango with a Standard 1 1/2 Din install kit! While I was working on other things in the truck (parked) I would have the Empeg playing for listening pleasure. After about 3 to 4 hours it would lock up, crash or reboot with some unpleasant pops. I would pull the unit out to check and it was hotter than ANY OTHER CAR STEREO I HAVE EVER SEEN! I worked for Shakespearians Car stereo in Daytona Beach for 4 years as a car stereo repairman and never saw any other car stereo ever get this hot. Maybe a crap-o Targa or Sparkomatic 200watt wonder.

But for the empeg this is NOT BAD!!! I expect high temp from a 220Mhz Unix PC in a 2.2 x 7.3 x 6" package!! And obviously your design team had these discussions when you designed the top cover as the FAN mounting is there! Please explain why it’s there. Did you run it for a couple of days and decide, “Well it’s ok… scrap the fan. What was the QA (Quality assurance) process?? Dell computer has notebooks with 220Mhz processors that are in a physically in a bigger package without a VFD furnace for a display and they HAVE A FAN!! Plus they sit in your lap not a 150deg F car! (Why not Color LCD? … Much Cooler ;) ) Ok Ok Ok.. so you say it does not need one.
Can you tell me what temp does the internals get to with no ventilation? When designing something like this you must design for the worst case. I know this from experience and I have designed several RAID cabinets for the nStor.com company. In those cabinets we used cheetah drives spinning at 10,000 rpm and we had to have contingency plans in the cabinet for cooling at worst case CFM per Sq in. over the drives. All I want you to do is see my point. Let's say your right and my unit has some temperature tolerance problem here and the Empeg MKII does not need a fan..... Why not put one in anyhow? how much do they cost in bulk? $2.00? 3? For $1200 bucks it should have one just to be sure. Have you run thermals? Where are the numbers? I should not be chastised for trying to extend the life of my empeg. I would expect more of a comment like: That’s not a bad idea in some cases.

Just knowing that a closed car in the hot sun will get hotter than 55 deg. C (or 131 Deg F Empegs maximum operating temperature) Would justify the fan. I was planning on opening the cover at some point anyhow to add an additional hard drive (you’re prices are more than twice street value at 30gig) which I know will make this heat question worse. Do you have MTBF numbers??? at what temps??? post them please. I'll bet my life that a cooler Empeg lasts many more hours than a hot one.

I hope you see this conversation as an intellectual one and not a pissing contest.
Anyhow, I made my point and I’m pretending this bad thread never happened.
I’m getting off my soapbox and was only originally responding to a fellow customer who had thermal issues.
In closing, I do want to say (as I have in other threads) the Empeg player is AWESOME!
Thank your for having the beans to design develop and bring this monster to market.
I really do love it. :)


12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

Edited by flashman on 05/11/00 06:46 AM.

You might be overreacting just a bit.

First of all, you're assuming that the Empeg has a mounting location for a fan. Those could be just ventilation holes, not specifically a fan mount. OK, I'll grant you, the holes kind of look like they were meant for a fan.

Secondly, Empeg did a lot of testing to confirm that the unit could operate in (within reason) harsh climates. They do have testing and quality control.

Finally, the kind of glitches you're describing make it sound like it might have been faulty unit (as Rob said), although temperature problems could definitely cause that kind of failure.

The photos of your 1/2-DIN EQ mounting looked really nifty, but I'm wondering if the EQ unit was putting off any heat of its own? Also, most dashboards leave some air space around the radio mounting area, and most car stereos count on this air space being present. The EQ may have been blocking the Empeg's ability to radiate its heat naturally.

___________
Tony Fabris

The only thing in the EQ that generated any real heat was the illumination (6 incandesant 12v bulbs) which I prompltly changed out for Blue Nicha LEDs that are cool to the touch.

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

No, YOU missed the point. The player does not run that hot, it does not glitch or crash (well, there is a rare bug in 1.01 that can do that but its not heat related). Read my last post again - I thought I was quite clearly saying that your specific player may well have a problem.

I don't know why you would just assume that this behaviour is normal - we do actually know a thing or two about designing hardware. If your player is working normally then there's SOMETHING different with your install because we have players in hotter climates that Miami and its not unusual for a DIN bay to have restricted airflow. As I said, as soon as you started getting glitching and crashing you should have contacted customer support, not open up the player invalidating your warranty. I for one would contact support if my $1000+ product didn't work properly!

The main board in the empeg runs practically cold - the 220Mhz processor that you draw attention to is a StrongARM which runs completely cold, it doesn't even need a heat sink. The only noteworthy heat generators in the unit are the VFD and the hard drives. When was the last time you saw a force cooled notebook harddrive? Sure they have a fan for the x86 processor, but I've even seen notebook drives completely sealed in a tin can (Compaq LTE series) and they're quite happy with it. The VFD is supposed to get hot, it has heaters which are fundamental to its operation.

The fan mounting point is historical - the original metalwork was designed before we even had any production circuit boards and it seemed sensible to arrange the ventilation holes in a fan formal just incase one was needed. In fact it wasnt needed, but there was no point producing new CAD for the metalwork.

Why don't we fit a fan anyway? Apart from the fact that you're the only person that ever had a problem, the fan significantly reduces the height of drive that can be accommodated without the two colliding when the shock mounts flex.

The figure of 55 degrees is quoted in line with the drive manufacturers spec sheet. For the same reason you can't operate a laptop under the same conditions, or a portable hard drive based MP3 player either. The operating tolerance for a CD head is usually similar or even lower. In practice, of course, people do use all of these items in a hot environment - but if you regularly drive your car with a cabin temperature over 130F then you're taking risks with your health. In practice, of course, you most likely switch on the AC and the cabin temperature drops to a comfortable 70F - 90F very quickly. If you're comfortable, your empeg will be comfortable.

While I was working on other things in the truck (parked) I would have the Empeg playing for listening pleasure. After about 3 to 4 hours it would lock up, crash or reboot with some unpleasant pops

You don't leave it parked in the sun do you? Without AC? If you run your empeg in an oven for four hours then, yes, it will get hot! We publish an operating temperature limit of 55 degrees as you know, but a truck left in the sun can easily reach or exceed that temperature (as you also know).

I hope you see this conversation as an intellectual one and not a pissing contest.

Of course.

Rob

I still can't see the point of all this; the empeg has temperature sensors on board designed to shut the machine down if it gets too hot or too cold in operation. That is by design. The temperature boundaries for operation are set by the operation ranges of the devices chosen to be in the box, hence if there is a case temperature above or below this threshold, the unit shuts down. This is surely what is happening on your unit. I may be wrong - perhaps there is a problem with the sensor on your unit.

I know you say that you love the empeg, and that you don't want this thread to be negative. I also don't want a firefight here, but all the things you are telling me sound agressive, negative, and are pitched in a manner that get my back up. From my own experience of QA, I would say that you shouldn't be pitching your suggestions this way. It is simply antagonistic and "blame oriented".

What I do see is that you appear to have a problem (which no one else has so far had), you then report it in a strange way on a public BBS and then agressively defend your stance, all without having simply mailed support to ask if this behaviour is normal.

Instead, you have apparently tried using an external fan, to fix a ventilation problem that you have in part caused yourself by obstructing the normal flow of convection air out of the unit, by placing another powered unit directly above it, with no clearance. You have not said anything about the rest of your install - for example, have you verified the current draw on the remote enable line is below the maximum, since excessive current draw will inevitably cause heating? - so we can only react to what you say here. If it was me dealing with this situation I would have swapped over the unit's positions to see if the situation was improved, and if not, I would be talking to empeg first before kludging in a fix.

There is no doubt you were initially trying to help, and in common with a great deal - in fact, almost the majority - of people on this board, this is only to be applauded. You should not, however, diss suggestions from others who are equally, making a similar attempt to help you with a problem that you are reporting, directly or indirectly, on this thread. Designs that rely on active forced cooling methods such as a fan are heading for the dumper - the much more elegant passive threshold & convection design of the empeg that doesn't need a fan at all are to be applauded. Witness the new generation designs from Apple.

I still stand by what I say - you have a problem. You have aggravated it by your installation configuration, which to me seems technically unsound. You have not been conservative in checking that the unit was not at fault with the manufacturer (already well known to be exceedingly concientious about support issues), and fallen back (in my opinion unneccessarily) on a "fix" just to get it working. I know the desperation you can feel to get that empeg in the vehicle and working - I have suffered from it too, you know - but this is just taking risks, for reasons unknown to me. I wouldn't risk my 800 pound stereo like this, for the same reasons you state!

This to me is an extremely strange way to proceed with issues relating to a high-value electronic device, and coming from one who professes to have training in electronics and works in QA, I am left puzzled and, to be honest, upset by your attitude. I would not like to have you feel that I am sounding "hostile", and I suspect you will - but I am still left with the feeling that I am fending off a knife attack out of the blue.


One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I had my MK1 shut down (lock up) a few times while driving this summer. The outside air temp was over 98F and a 400hp motor with headers was within 14" of the unit (no insulation on the firewall yet). There are pics in the install section. There's a vent (1949 airconditioning) directly over the unit, which was closed because I hadn't figured out the linkage yet, however buy opening it about 1/8" the problem was solved. It wasn't caused by airspace around the unit because there's 7' space around it; it was the ambient under dash temp.

On a side note: I'm totally amazed at how well these units work, I have constantly beat the hell out of the unit (temperature and vibration wise) and it just continues to flawlessly play music.

AL

You are right... I have re-read my posts and they were too hostile. I guess I just felt attacked for somthing I felt strongly about. I apoligize for my aggressiveness. Anyhow the real reason I guess I jumped to put a fan in was to see if I could avoid a product return fiasco with customs and or Empegless for the time of any needed repairs. I thought to myself..... I will try to cure the heat first and if that does'nt work then I guess I will pay for a repair. So far no problems yet. :)
I also am guilty of enjoying a good high energy conversation too.

Cheers!

12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

nothing like a fiesty thread huh?

I've had my unit shut down due to excessive heat. First i wondered if there was another problem, but after removing the unit and finding it really hot I held it in front of the AC vent on full and on re-insertion, all was cool (ha).

I am thinking about venting the unit to AC by inserting a pipe into an appropriate point in the AC so it always gets cool air.

I don't see any problem with the current unit design given the the operating params are listed. If you live in a hot area, ventilate it. Hypothetical: should empeg have a warming circuit if the unit is transferred from the cold? not IMHO.
0.02USD


____________________
Murray 06000047

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015