First off, we need to sweep the internet (and any other resources) to find plastics casters to make our translucent buttons. Before you take the time to contact them, please post their contact information here. In another thread, we will iron out the details of the project, so when we contact the casters, we will have all our information ready.

Once we have a good idea of the project details, we can each contact different casters to see if they will take the work. Results can be reported back here.

Check the other "Buttons -" threads for some more info. Thanks for your help, we will ALL appreciate it!

http://www.matrixenterprises.com/molds.htm.

The types of casters involved so far have included hobbyists and "cottage" casters that are involved in model making (Casting_Fool and SCModelWorks). Given the lack of success with the latter group, I'd try a more industrial group next.

I can start going though the list of mold maker's at Smooth-on if your lead fizzles.
http://www.smooth-on.com/mmfhire.htm

I can also contact Smooth-on and Alumilite directly to get a recommendation for a caster.

If you want to call Matrix, that would be great. If nothing else, you could learn a little more about the process, the options, the quantity limits and unit costs, materials costs, and setup costs. That RIM method sounds good.

And Smooth-On sounds like a good resource for finding a caster. They are actually under an hour from my house, but since they don't do casting, that's not too much of a help.

If you get any casters, post them here so nobody else calls them also. Actually, it might be kind of funny if they got multiple requests for small run of odd buttons... but it'd confuse them.

Here's my first index in casting:
http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.com/molded_plastics/
Apparently over 450 casters listed there. I'll try calling ones which seem applicable, and I'll post the ones I've tried.

Hm, alot of injection molders on here. I'll try some just to confirm that injection molding is totally out of the question.

Ok, sent an email to Matrix.

Here's the body of it, if you want to re-use it as a form email.

My name is ________. I found your company via an internet search. I am one of a group of hobbyists who collect and modify a car audio player called an Empeg (empeg.comms.net). This player is no longer made so obtaining new parts or alternate parts can be difficult to impossible.

As you have probably guessed, I am interested in having a part made for the player, specifically buttons and knobs. The size of the run would be approximately 200-300 sets (4 buttons and 2 knobs) in 5 colors (40 - 60 sets per color). Is this size and type of project something that you would be interested in discussing further? If so, I can provide further details and pictures. If not, can you recommend a casting company that may interested?

Thank you for your time,

Best Regards,

Done. Please let me know if you need the attachment for other vendors. The email is below. I've removed the email address in the event that spam crawlers are visiting the board. PM me if you would like it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvin Barber []
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 4:50 AM
To: 'Kathy Stewart'
Subject: Empeg translucent button request


Hello Kathy,

Thank you for the prompt reply. The specifications for the project are below and pictures are attached. I have attempted to provide sufficient information about the project. Please let me know if you need additional details. Thank you very much for your time regarding this request.

Best Regards,

Alvin Barber

Project Synopsis

Background
In 2001, SonicBlue/Rio discontinued the Empeg/Rio Car car stereo which is a removable hard drive based music player for the car. After remaining stock were sold, about 4000 units total are in circulation. The players are still collected and a virtual owner community exists at http://empeg.comms.net. The player is controlled via 4 buttons and a knob (please see the player.jpg picture). A user can change the color of the player's display by inserting a different colored lens made from 1/16" acrylic. Some owners have modified their players by adding lights behind the buttons and knob to illuminate them. The light modification is only apparent when translucent buttons and a knob are used. Owners have made translucent buttons to match the existing plastic lens colors but never in sufficient quantity to satisfy the demand from other owners.

Scope
The program involves casting the 4 buttons and 2 knobs for the player as one set. (A single player only has one knob but 2 player configurations were manufactured.) The overall program size is estimated to be 200-300 sets of 5 translucent colors or in other words, 40-60 sets of each color. The colors are Red, Blue, Green, Amber, and Smoke to match the original lens colors. (please see the illuminated player.jpg picture) A larger quantity and variety of colors is possible depending on the cost and limitations of the casting process. For the purpose of quotation, please quote on the 200-300 set quantity and 5 colors but include the relative cost impact for additional colors or quantity.

The original pieces were injection molded but the mold is no longer available. From the attached pictures, you will note that the pieces are hollow. This hollow space will need to be filled to ensure uniform light diffusion through the buttons. Past efforts at casting the pieces have used urethane/silicone molds and a 2 part resin but quality control and repeatability were poor. I am curious to know if RIM injection would be appropriate for this type of project? If not, can you please explain what casting and molding process would be used including the materials. It may be possible to supply the original pieces in quantity. Please advise on what the optimal number would be. Also it would be helpful to know if susbsequent runs would be possible and what the associated costs would be.

Based on past experiences, it is expected that several prototypes would need to be done to match colors correctly. Can you explain how your company has handled projects of this type before and what is the typical process for corrections, quality control issues, and final signoff? Quality control issues of particular concern are clarity, uniform color dispersion, correct fit, uniform light diffusion, free of bubbles or other visbile defect, and correct size when compared to the original pieces.

As to timing, the nature of the project does not warrant a rush or expediated status. September, 2004 or before would be the desired delivery date for the pieces in the requested quantity and colors.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kathy Stewart [mailto:matrixenterprises.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:51 PM
To: Alvin Barber
Subject: Re: Quotation for a short run casting


Alvin~
Certainly we can quote on your project. That is one of the program sizes we work with. We look forward to hearing from you.

Kathy

Kathy Stewart
Matrix Enterprises
www.matrixenterprises.com
12310 Stowe Dr Ste B
Poway, CA 92064
858.391.2828/voice
888.843.8998/toll free
858.391.2827/fax

Awesome, I'll reuse some of those questions and information when I contact people. Darn, I need to take a day off work and start contacting these people....

From the Smooth-on list, I've sent general inquiries to:

J&L Machine & Tool
9520 Highway 87 E. - Suite 1
San Antonio, TX 78263
Tel. 210-649-3226


Tork, Inc.
2505 Fairwood Ave.
Columbus, OH 43207
Tel: 614-492-1810
Fax: 614-492-1575
www.torkworks.com

Peter Mastroianni (sent previously;was not interested)
www.pjmmold.com

From the Yahoo Casting Group

www.lumicast.com - not interested

www.scmodelworks.com - the caster who Stu tried unsuccessfully

Has anyone contacted Brian to see if he's willing to sell the setup he has to make the buttons? It sounded like he just didn't have time to make the buttons any more? I'm not sure if this is a route you want to take or if you'd rather have a casting company spend the time to make the buttons. I remember Brian saying that it took a considerable amount of time to cast one set with his setup, but it’s an idea.

Later,
Rob

Yes. I have not received a reply yet. I also asked if he would be willing to share his color match experience (since he already worked out the formulae to match the stock and smoke lenses).

These folks expressed interest also. I've sent a follow-up.

--------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: jlmt []
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 4:03 PM
To: Alvin Barber
Subject: Re: Quotation for a short run casting


Hello,!
Go ahead and send pics and as much info as to qty and colors and especially info on you . if your are a private company or an individual looking for a one time short run. Best regards, JOE HINOJOSA



-----Original Message-----
From: torkinfo[]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:53 PM
To: Alvin Barber
Subject: Re: Quotation for a short run casting


Hello Alvin,
This does sound like something we can do. The transparent colors do cost a
bit more, And this is all cast by hand so it does take a little time to
make a run. mostly we are limited to 2 casts per day per mold. We can make
more molds if the run is needed in a specific time frame.
The molds will have a cost for material, which these sound small so it
should be pretty reasonable, and time to make.
then we will have a per piece based on your total run, I can get you an
estimate per piece it you can give me the dimension and possiably a pic of
the pieces showing me front and back , and hopefully a side,

We also can do black light sensitive pigments that "glow" a blueish white,
also we do pearl colors.....we can sample those to you when needed. THANKS tony

Go ahead and send pics and as much info as to qty and colors and especially info on you . if your are a private company or an individual looking for a one time short run.

What???

You should avoid this guy on principle.

I thought it was a bit odd but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I figure he may be looking for upside. I am glad he qualified what he wanted to know about me. I did a double take on the "more info on you" when I first read it.

I like walks in the rain and piña coladas.

I think you guys are too hard on him. Anyone asking for short-run work could easily be a fly-by-night'er, so he's probably just making sure that your interest in the project is professional and on the level. Maybe he's been burned in the past or whatnot.

I think you mean:

I think your guys are too hard . on him

I'm guessing its something along those lines. It came across as a little unprofessional but I've found that people who are typically formal in snail mail letters can be surprisingly informal in emails. Like I said, I'm given him the benefit of the doubt that its just him trying to scope the project.

I contacted smooth-on and alumilite regarding caster recommendations. Smooth-on refered me to their list of casters on their website which I've already been through. Alumlite actually has a caster on staff and will take a look at the project themselves. At this point, I've got 4 quote requests out to casting shops. I'd expect to have something back on these next week.

Anyone heard back from _hardcore_ or Brian?

It would be good if we could get some machine/prototyping shops involved per gbeer's efforts to find out if injection molding or variants are feasible and cost effective.

Firefox did you want to chase the list that you had? I can try asking around otherwise.

No and No from hardcore or Brian...

If Alumlite has someone on staff - that may be the best option yet!!!

From an experience standpoint, I'd agree but sounds like he's a very busy guy.

Great to hear Mach.

Yes, I am going to try the casters I found at ThomasRegister (even though I get the feeling that ThomasRegister is some spammy "cool web search directory" like the rest of 'em). The list was broken down to specifically list small run shops and the different types of molding they did. I will select the most fitting ones (from the list of 48 or so) and contact them. I will see if they offer different methods of doing the project, hoping to find the most cost effective one.

Here is my list of questions for casters (largly extracted from Mach's previous e-mails. it will continue to grow and change):

Small runs? 200 - 300 sets? Quantity price breaks / quantity tiers?

Process:
- -Injection, RIM, hand casting, other?
- -For each: mold type, mold life, setup costs and labor costs.
(once a process is decided on)

Mold:
- -The design and CAD files are copyrighted, but we have been given permission to use them. Do not distribute the design or CAD publicly.
- -Created from buttons, CAD, other?
- -Buttons destroyed while creating mold?
- -What material? Plastic, metal, other?
- -Use a mold we provide? What types can you accept?

Button material:
- -Resin, other? Same as current button?
- -How to color them? Dye, precolored plastic, other?

Proofing:
- -Corrections to the mold, colors, materials used?
- -Final signoff before production?

Quality control issues:
- -Clarity, uniform color dispersion, correct fit, uniform light diffusion, free of bubbles or other visbile defect.

Production:
- -Different quantities of different colors? Or the same quantity of all colors? Additional costs for either approach?
- -Turn around time?

Cost estimates:
- -Mold, materials, labor costs, ultimate per unit cost?

In other news, I did receive the button CAD file from Rob V. Details and his copyright information is over in the "Buttons - Redesign for low volume production" thread.

So, if anyone contacts any more casters, ask them about how they can use CAD files. Cheaper and easier to create the mold? Setup cost for using the CAD? Can they modify it to fill in some blank space? (pending Rob's approval to modify the copyrighted files) etc. I'll be asking the casters about this, amongst all the other things.

Ahhh, very good. I have notified the caster's that I have contacted so far.

Alumilite refered us to another caster. Here's the exchange thus far. Standard info forwarded to him.

Mr. Barber,

Alumilite referred me to you regarding your “button” project. I am a design engineer with extensive experience in rapid prototyping, stereolithography and urethane castings. Visit my web site to see my model RR product line. I also do a lot of custom casting work for other manufacturers.

I am interested in producing your parts but I need some information to work with, such as:

Order quantity
Delivery per month
Part color(s)
Does the clear acrylic plate need to be cast?

I will consider purchasing a spin casting machine if this project warrants. Currently, I produce parts up to 10” wide x 16” long in my pressure tanks. I also make parts using the vacuum process (flat castings). Depending on order quantity, your parts may or may not justify installing a spin caster … I may be able to pressure cast them to meet your schedule.

Regards,

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
35 Springwood Drive
Asheville, NC 28805
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

No news from the other casters but will contact them again on Friday to bump the project for them.

Thats funny, I own one of his Southern Ry. Transfer Caboose's that I purchase at a model RR show a few months ago. http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/ho.html

I was looking at his Rapid Prototyping -- Custom Urethane Castings portion of his website. Looks like pretty cool...
http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/rapid.html

Some Snippits

Quote:
We build parts using time-tested, Somos resins. The 7100 resin is an amber-colored, rigid material used for sturdy models and RTV, plaster-cast mold patterns and investment patterns. Clear resins are also available.

Quote:
Urethanes are available in durometers from 10A to 90A (soft) and 50D to 85D (hard) and in several colors, including UV-resistant clear, translucent tints and glass-filled, high-temp, D-scale durometer urethanes for premium strength.

Quote:
SMMW also makes silicone reproductions. This material is recommended for projects that require contact with skin (many urethanes exude release agents that can cause skin irritation; silicones are more inert)...

Sean in NC

He does Injection too...

Here's a list of casters / injection molders that I sent an e-mail to. I will edit this post to update the status of the communication with them. I have plenty more leads to try, but let's see what these turn up first.
Updated 7/1/04 pm

http://www.axcellproducts.com/ - Toms River, NJ
axcell@heyco.com
They seem to do the job.

http://www.icmplastics.com/icmweb/molding.htm - Rogers, MN
sales@icmplastics.com
A HUGE shop, it seems.
7/1/04 - Received reply asking for specific materials info, color matching info, and CADs. Will call re: "um, we don't have that, will you still take the job?"

http://www.polymerconceptsinc.com/ - Randleman, NC
ldraughn@polymerconceptsinc.com
First e-mail to them bounced. Very Microsoft Frontpage template website.
7/1/04 - Received professional reply. Replied with mold and materials specifications (in plain english).

http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/73868952/home.htm - Tact Plastics USA - Shelby, NC
tactplastics@aol.com
Lists custom color matching, injection molding, manufacturering. Seems good. But no real website or e-mail?

http://www.apogeedesigns.com/ - Baltimore, MD
nab@apogeedesigns.com
I think they do molding and casting...
7/1/04 - Received reply. The reqest is being forwarded to their VP of sales. Wait to hear back.

OUT - http://www.zirconplastics.com/index.htm - only do OEM.

http://memphis.rcoeng.com/plastic/
rcosales@rcoeng.com
They seem to offer everything, and have a myriad of other services (soft plastic, design, etc).

http://www.precisionpunch.com/webpage.cfm?page_id=1 - Minnetonka, MN
info@precisionpunch.com
They do liquid polymer casting, but other less pertinant stuff too.

http://www.methodsmanufacturing.com/ - Fox Lake, IL
info@MethodsManufacturing.com
They seem to offer many types of services. Spreading themselves thin?

http://www.rsalberts.com/index.html - Montoursville, PA
info@rsalberts.com
Offers hand casting, injection, liquid resin casting, and more.

http://www.injectedsolutions.com/android_001.htm - Lanesboro, MA
joek@injectedsolutions.com
Seems like a small shop with a few machines. But they advertise full project management.
7/1/04 - Received casual reply. Replied with general questions and material specifications (in plain english).

http://www.ramplastic.com/home.htm - Huntley, IL
sales@ramplastic.com
Injection molding. Mentions knobs and buttons in their list of standard jobs.

(edit: holy crap, the new bbs just converted that all into real url's and mailto:'s. that's niiiiiice.)

Cool, hopefully they're a bit faster than the group I've contacted.

Yup, by 9am, I had three replies; five total by the end of the day. I'll update the post to indicate the status.

Sent a note to the casters asking if they need additional info. Don't expect to hear anything back until Tuesday due to the American Holiday tho.

Oh shoot, I can no longer edit "because my maximum edit time has expired" or something. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm now working with 4 casters; 1 dropped out and 7 haven't replied yet. Amersfoort is going to take me away from this until the 12th, so we'll see what happens until then.

pm me the exact text you want it changed to, and i will edit it for you

Thanks, but I'm not going to worry about it. Disallowing me from editing will force me to be less wordy, filling this thread needlessly. I'll only post important info (like my goal to e-mail 12 more casters this weekend). Thanks again.

Wow, ever since "vacation got in the way of calling casters", I've been away from this for quite a while. Now that the weekend is here, I should be able to get back in touch with old casters, find some new casters, and start getting things moving. Thanks to Rob S for providing spare buttons at Amersfoort and Mach for sharing excelent info about this project.