#234775 - 23/09/2004 19:40
I feel sick...
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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For some stupid reason I clicked on a video link on an American website while looking for the latest news on Ken Bigley, but it was the Jack Hensley murder video.
This has shocked me deeply to a level I never knew I had before. I don't want to get into a big discussion about the war here, but I am genuinely interested in how this is being reported in the US.
I need a little community support here, has anyone else had an experience with this? Or is this not the sort of thing I should be talking about on here?
Cris.
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#234776 - 23/09/2004 20:16
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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There is a thread discussing it, but it kind of got derailed a bit. I have not seen the video, nor do I want to. I avoid the televised news, mostly because I feel it is a bit biased and reports their analysis of the events. I like to draw my own conclusions. I tend to read news websites - CNN, BBC, etc.
I cannot tell you how the broadcast media is playing it. I doubt they would air the video, other than small (carefully selected) bites that do not show anything other than a "before" shot, framing him with his kidnappers / executioners.
I would guess that the broadcast media would be doing a lot of personal interest background stories: family reaction, family history, Bush saying this has to stop, if you are lucky international reaction.
Edit: added link to BBS thread
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#234777 - 24/09/2004 07:33
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I saw the video of Eugene Armstrong, it was a very strange experience. After watching countless gory films in the past, nothing prepares you for what you see. It's not latex, fake blood and a stunt man doing it. You genuinely see a man lose his life, in probably one of the most horrendous ways imaginable. It seems the most humane (if you can call it that) way would shoot someone in the head and get it over with, I think these guys actually enjoy doing it.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#234778 - 24/09/2004 09:32
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I'm sure there is a huge difference in watching the mom in Taking Lives lose her head and watching the real thing. Very surreal, I imagine. I can only pray for the families of the victims.
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#234779 - 24/09/2004 09:36
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I didn't see this beheading in particular, but I heard enough audio from another and saw some stills to make me sick to my stomache as well. But what really has me freaked out is that they are finding just the "bodies" of these people - not the heads. They still havn't found Daniel Pearl's head as far as I know. Very disturbing. We are dealing with truely evil people here. Some people are even distributing DVDs of these actions. I just wish that the good Muslim people of this world would take more of a public stand against this. Their silence speaks volumes to some people, but I think they too are afraid. This gave me some hope recently.
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Brad B.
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#234780 - 24/09/2004 12:51
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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I am living in a Muslim country right now, Tunisia to be exact. They definitely don’t get the same news that I have read in the U.S. Every day I come home to a roommate that blasts Al Jazeera. Since I can only understand a little Arabic and can read even less, I don’t get the full story. But there are no shortage of people we willing to talk about what they hear, see, and read. Unless its about their own government.
Al Jazeera most certainly shows pictures and clips that you would not see in Europe, or in the state. I think there is a large population in Europe that can get Al Jazeera. While they have not shown the actual beheadings, they have shown, with sound, the whole tape with the exception of the ugly deed. There is commentary on it while it’s playing. I sit and watch with little reaction, as do most people here. I haven’t had a single person utter a word about these tapes in social atmospheres.
I don’t believe by in large the Muslim people know how to go about dealing with this. I’ll try to drag some information out of my roommate about the subject.
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_______________________________________
former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234781 - 24/09/2004 13:29
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
I just wish that the good Muslim people of this world would take more of a public stand against this. Their silence speaks volumes to some people, but I think they too are afraid.
I'm a muslim, I'm definitely not scared but I don't see how I could take a public stand. Everybody that knows me knows that I would never condone these kind of actions, I also try and explain to anybody that wants to know what my understanding of Islam is on subjects such as these. But I'm not a politician, journalist or self appointed spokesperson for the Islamic world and I definitely have no interest in being in the public eye.
Edited by epwc (24/09/2004 13:30)
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#234782 - 24/09/2004 15:19
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
I just wish that the good Muslim people of this world would take more of a public stand against this.
I agree with epwc .. Why should anyone feel any sense of obligation to explain/justify/defend themselves in the face of lunatics that are acting independently. In my mind, it's like saying that white people should come forward and take a public stance against serial killers because almost every serial killer has been a white person. Any rational person realizes that the percentage of people committing these acts is tiny compared to the population of Muslim people in the world and that the acts of the few do not reflect the beliefs of the many. If a person doesn't realize this, then there is a much more fundamental problem that most likely isn't going to be swayed by the opinions of a class they are already bigoted against.
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#234783 - 24/09/2004 16:28
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
it's like saying that white people should come forward and take a public stance against serial killers
Bad analogy. We do. We track down and imprison (and sometimes execute) serial killers. We universally denounce what they do.
In general, does the majority of the Muslim population denounce what the radical extremists did? Or do they just watch idly and silently think they were justified? Note I'm not saying that's actually the case, I'm genuinely posing it as a question.
I agree that the rest of the Muslim world should not have to answer what the radical extremists are doing. But I worry that our country feels as though we're the only ones willing to step up and try to bring them to justice. And especially worry that we feel the only way to accomplish this task is to go to war with and occupy a foreign nation. (Note that I use "we" metaphorically...)
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#234784 - 24/09/2004 16:37
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Nobody is a serial killer in the name of "being white". Christians do publically condemn preists that molest young children and often do so in other situations when someone is being stupid "in the name of Christianity".
I know that the acts of these sub-humans does in now way reflect the nature of the majority of Muslims. My point was simply that because the good so overwhelmingly outnumber the bad, it seems that the Muslim community would be in the best position to oust these terrorists and are doing these things.
I shouldn't have to point this out, but just so that nobody gets the wrong idea (or suggest that I'm bigoted against Muslims), I live in the largest Muslim community in the US. Many of the friends I happen to welcome into my home happen to be Muslim as are many of my neighbors, coworkers and community members. It is my first hand knowledge of how great the Muslim community is here in Dearborn that gives me faith that the people that are distorting the Muslim faith can be brought down by the good.
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Brad B.
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#234785 - 24/09/2004 17:12
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
In general, does the majority of the Muslim population denounce what the radical extremists did?
I'd say yes, I certainly don't know anyone who supports what they did
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#234786 - 24/09/2004 17:19
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
we're the only ones willing to step up and try to bring them to justice
Justice is a big word. There are many injustices where the west (that includes me, I was born in and have lived all my life in London) has chosen not to step in.
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#234787 - 24/09/2004 17:50
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
Bad analogy. We do.
I disagree. I think we as a SOCIETY do. There's not some special expectation that white people should IN PARTICULAR come out against it. Just like I think we as a society are against the violence perpetrated by those hostage takers. My point is that we are or SHOULD be against it not because of the race or the religion of the people who committed it, nor even the REASONS they committed it, but rather because of the violence of the act itself.
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#234788 - 24/09/2004 17:55
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
so that nobody gets the wrong idea
I didn't intend to imply anything by my response either, just so you know.
Quote:
Nobody is a serial killer in the name of "being white"
Violence by members of the KKK is certainly pretty close, but I feel no obligation as a white person to defend myself against being associated with them because it's ludicrous to. To look at a white person and assume they're a KKK member or that they better speak out against KKK members for fear that others might think they agree with it seems like a silly proposition. We are against them because what they do is wrong regardless of why and who they are, and we should acknowledge that it's a very small minority of people committing these acts.
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#234789 - 24/09/2004 18:15
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The KKK analogy is much closer than the aforementioned serial killer analogy. The KKK feels they have a "cause" for their violence, and their "cause" is to "cleanse" our country of those who "don't belong" and advance their (warped) interpretation of Christianity. The "cause" for the violence Muslim extremists engage in is to fight against forces which they see as encroaching on their own (warped) interpretation of Islam.
And let me assure you that, while it's certainly nowhere near a majority, there is certainly a very large contingent in "White America" that doesn't directly support or condone what the KKK does, but believes many of the same things, and therefore "looks the other way" when the KKK demonstrates in the center of town, burns a cross, or spray-paints swastikas on the home of a Jewish family. This "silent acceptance" is a result of agreeing with some or all of what the extremists do, but not wanting to go to the same, well, extremes.
Getting back to what Muslims should or shouldn't do about these acts, I'd imagine that it's the same scenario. Nowhere near a majority of Muslims believe in "Death to America," "Death to Israel," etc. But from what I gather, mainstream Muslim opinion is that the Palestinians (and only the Palestinians) belong in Israel, and America should stay out of the Middle East. So, when you average Muslim sees anti-American or anti-Israeli violence on TV, it doesn't disturb them in the same way that violence against their own people does. Certainly, the average Muslim wouldn't personally engage in these extreme terrorist acts, and they wouldn't necessarily associate with anyone who does... But despite their different interpretations, they're still bonded by the same faith, so they have more in common than they do with the American they saw executed on TV. To them, therefore, the anti-American violence is more acceptable on a relative scale, though not acceptable on an absolute scale.
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#234790 - 24/09/2004 18:28
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
The KKK analogy is much closer than the aforementioned serial killer analogy.
Agreed. Good point. We allow their organization to exist in the name of democracy and free speech, and in some ways, actively support some of the things they do.
Quote:
So, when you average Muslim sees anti-American or anti-Israeli violence on TV, it doesn't disturb them in the same way that violence against their own people does.
You know, this made me think.
Okay, we see anti-american violence, like the person being executed by the extremists, and are deeply disturbed by it. Now, in this thread, we're wondering aloud whether Muslims are equally disturbed by it.
But think about it. How would most Americans react to seeing a video of the execution of one of the 9/11 terrorists, or of Osama or Saddam? Whether the execution was gruesome or not. I mean, honestly.
Personally, I don't react well to seeing anyone die. But think of the general population...
Patriotism, nationalism, and religion are powerful things to sway popular opinion and to control behavior and attitudes. Frighteningly powerful.
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#234791 - 24/09/2004 18:40
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Personally, I don't react well to seeing anyone die. But think of the general population...
Please clarify whether you are subtracting yourself from the "general population" and somehow putting yourself above it, or whether you, too, are a human being.
The point you led yourself to at the end of the post is (I think) that patriotism, religion, etc. all are factors in making certain types of deaths less difficult to deal with. So, why qualify that statement by saying you're any different?
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#234792 - 24/09/2004 18:59
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I didn't want to make the post about my personal opinion, I wanted it to be about the general public in the US. Because it was in reply to a premise that the general Muslim public in the middle east didn't find the actions as abhorrent as the US public did.
However, I will admit that I don't think I'm the same as the general public in this country when it comes to that. I think most of the people in the US would cheer to see Osama Bin Laden beheaded gruesomely, whereas I would think it would be an awful, terrible thing. (Edit, clarification: I still want to see him and his organization brought to justice, I just don't happen to believe in executions.)
Above it? That's a tough one, because if I say yes, I'm an elitist snob. But I think that there's a large amount of patriotic propaganda in this country that's not easy to avoid, and I work hard to try to think for myself, rather than giving into it. I don't think the general public, as a whole, feels the same way.
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#234793 - 24/09/2004 19:31
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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Please clarify if you're assuming that the U.S. is generally populated by human beings or by subhumans. 
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-- DLF
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#234794 - 24/09/2004 19:33
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Out of curiosity, are you also Arabic (or of Arabic descent)?
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Bitt Faulk
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#234795 - 24/09/2004 19:38
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: DLF]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Please clarify if you're assuming that the U.S. is generally populated by human beings or by subhumans.
I believe the US is generally populated by humans. At times like this, though, I don't have a very high opinion of humanity in general.
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#234796 - 24/09/2004 19:43
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
How would most Americans react to seeing a video of the execution of one of the 9/11 terrorists, or of Osama or Saddam?
I don't think the issue has much to do with the squick factor of seeing someone beheaded, but, rather, the moral outrage of someone being killed at all, especially in such a terrible manner.
So, in that case, if Osama was to be killed via lethal injection, I think that most Americans would not be bothered -- at least not any moreso than by, say, Tim McVeigh's execution. But if he were beheaded, I think many more people would be up in arms about it, although probably fewer than are up in arms over the Arabic beheadings.
But if you show someone's head being graphically cut off, I don't think it makes a lot of difference if that person is good or bad or black or white or brown. It's just disgusting in the same way that spiders and snakes and puke are disgusting. Hell, most of us would have an equivalent reaction if it were a dog's head cut off.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234797 - 24/09/2004 21:16
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Maybe I'm living in lala land, but I have yet to meet one white person that supports the KKK. And I do personally feel obligated to object to them. I even used to wear a t-shirt with a stick figure tossing a swastica in the trash. (I used to get funny lucks because the swastica was bright red and that stuck out, so I stopped wearing it.)
The only good news is that they are pretty much considered a joke in the US. They only get attention on the Springer show. I'd also say that there are equal parts white people yelling at the KKK when they do show their face at city hall or Springer.
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Brad B.
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#234798 - 24/09/2004 21:18
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
To look at a white person and assume they're a KKK member or that they better speak out against KKK members for fear that others might think they agree with it seems like a silly proposition.
I never implied that any Muslim who didn't speak out against terrorism or beheadings in particular were in any way to be considered sympathetic. I was just saying tha it'd be quite powerful if even a small number of the 1 billion Muslims world wide did so.
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Brad B.
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#234799 - 24/09/2004 21:20
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I have yet to meet one white person that supports the KKK.
Neither have I, to my knowledge. But I'll bet we both have, but don't know it. Even if we asked, of those that do, they might not admit they do. It wouldn't surprise me if we've met, done business with, or even praised card-carrying members.
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#234800 - 24/09/2004 21:23
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I'd click "reply to all" if I could...
But good points by all.
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Brad B.
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#234801 - 24/09/2004 21:34
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I didn't want to make the post about my personal opinion
Fair enough, but you did make a distinction between yourself and "most Americans" so I wanted to explore what exactly made you dfferent. I think after reading your clarificaiton, I understand the distinction is that you don't believe in the death penalty under any circumstances, which does indeed put you in the minority among most Americans, who would certainly favor it for Osama (though not having him beheaded live on TV.)
If you "don't believe in executions," what do you think Osama's fate should be? I'm uneducated on whether terrorism fits into the conventional "war crimes" category, so I'm not sure whether Osama's "justice" would be before the Hauge, U.S. judges, both, or neither. But, supposing he were caught, what, other than execution, do you think he deserves?
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#234802 - 24/09/2004 21:36
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think he should be locked up and prevented from communicating with the outside world, so that he can't continue to direct terrorists to commit terrorist acts.
edit: Note that I didn't intend for this to turn this into a discussion for/against the death penalty. I just wanted to point out that, as a nation, we have a certain amount of bloodlust that's closely tied to our patriotism. That's the only reason we've been able to stomach the wars in the middle east with the losses of our countrymen. I wish everyone on the planet were able to suppress those feelings and deal logically and calmly with everything, instead of making war upon each other.
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#234803 - 24/09/2004 21:37
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Maybe I'm living in lala land, but I have yet to meet one white person that supports the KKK.
And I can promise you there are millions upon millions of Muslims who've never met anyone who supports Muslim extremists.
QED.
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#234804 - 24/09/2004 21:37
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I think he should be locked up and prevented from communicating with the outside world, so that he can't continue to direct terrorists to commit terrorist acts.
Okay. You can pay my share of taxes that would go towards his prison stay.
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#234805 - 24/09/2004 21:44
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Okay. You can pay my share of taxes that would go towards his prison stay.
And you can be the one to personally look him in the eye and actually administer the execution. Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Dealing out death is easy when you're not the one doing it.
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#234806 - 24/09/2004 21:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Don't worry, I doubt he'll throw his hands up in surrender.
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Brad B.
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#234807 - 24/09/2004 21:47
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I don't personally know anyone in the KKK but I still condemn it.
Speaking of the KKK, I LOVE the fact that their decline came about when they were sued into bankruptcy in civil court by a mother of one of their victims. She even won the land their headquarters was on. That is sweet irony (I'll have to check with Alanis Morrisette to see if that's ironic or not.)
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Brad B.
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#234808 - 24/09/2004 22:10
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Oh, oh! That one's easy. You tossed in the word "human" there, but as this thread has pointed out, often an executer looks at the slain as "subhuman".
The terrorist looks at Westerners as "infidels". The KKK looks at Jews and blacks as "subhumans". NOW and some doctors look at unborn babies as "fetuses". Many people would look at murderers, including Bin Laden, as "subhuman" as well. So, anything less than human does not deserve, in their eyes, treatment befitting a human.
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Brad B.
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#234809 - 24/09/2004 22:11
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Quote:
I have yet to meet one white person that supports the KKK.
Neither have I, to my knowledge.
Again, neither of you live in the South.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234810 - 24/09/2004 23:30
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
And you can be the one to personally look him in the eye and actually administer the execution. Then afterwards, tell me that you still believe human life is precious.
Dealing out death is easy when you're not the one doing it.
I do believe that all human life is precious, but there are varying degrees of "precious." Osama bin Laden is still a human being, so his life is not something to be carelessly destroyed. However, if aliens came down and told me they were going to destroy the Earth unless I gave them the name of one human being who would be killed and dissected for scientific purposes, I'd tell them to go find bin Laden.
Now, of course it seems silly to try to quantify how precious one life is over another, and most people don't want to have a direct hand in the death of another human being. But not all lives are equally precious, and I am pretty sure there was nobody among the victims of the 4 hijacked planes on 9/11 that deserved to die before bin Laden.
So, to directly answer your question, I could, in good conscience, push the button or pull the lever that delivers lethal injection to Osama bin Laden, then immediately turn to you and tell you that I truly believe human life is precious. That is not at all a contradiction in my mind.
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#234811 - 24/09/2004 23:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Right, and that's what's different about you and me. I couldn't do that.
Yes, I agree that he ordered the killing of thousands of innocent people, and therefore his life is less precious than mine from my point of view. And he probably would have no qualms about killing me in a heartbeat because I'm one of the infidels. But even so, I don't have it in my ability to look in anyone's eyes and take their life.
Something to consider is that our very own president has ordered the killing of large numbers of innocent people, too. Whether his life is also no longer precious is a political question. That's the definition of war, I suppose.
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#234812 - 24/09/2004 23:55
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
Something to consider is that our very own president has ordered the killing of large numbers of innocent people, too.
I don't know how you support this. I don't deny that many innocents have lost their lives, but Bush did not order this. It would be far cheaper and less dangerous to our soldiers if we didn't take every measure posible in a time of war to avoid civilian casualties. Yes, one has to admit that any pursuit of war will result in this, but to accuse Bush of ordering the killing of innocents isn't right.
That's the difference. If civilan deaths result from our actions, it's regretable and not the result of our desires. In fact, we take every action short of waving a white flag to ensure it won't happen. Terrorists on the other hand, feed on the innocent. I don't consider attacks against our soldiers to be the act of terrorism, but beheading contractors, blowing up buses and hijacking planes are all deliberate acts intentionally aimed at innocents. They are no colateral damage, they are direct hits. The US military are not terrorists and Bush did not order the death of innocents.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#234813 - 25/09/2004 00:05
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I agree that there's a difference between striking a military target with known/predicted civilian collateral damage, and deliberately striking a civilian target as an act of terror.
I'm just saying that the difference in the justifications behind each act are the very definition of politics.
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#234814 - 25/09/2004 00:51
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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You genuinely see a man lose his life, in probably one of the most horrendous ways imaginable.
Yes. Far better, then, to blow them up with smart bombs and cruise missiles, or disembowel them with bayonets, or put 30 rounds into them from a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on a Humvee.
I started to say "We brought war onto these people..." and then realized that I certainly didn't, I objected from the start, so let me rephrase that and say that the United States under the leadership of Geroge Bush brought war onto these people, and not a nice clean sanitary video-game Doom/Quake/Half-Life war, but a real attack with real bullets, bombs, and flame throwers.
So now we're shocked when some of the people to whom we brought our vision of a better life decide to repay the favor?
Oh, I'm disgusted and horrified all right, just not for the same reasons as some of the rest of you.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#234815 - 25/09/2004 14:19
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I believe that human life is precious, but I also believe in human rights. When one human intentionally takes the life of another (outside of a wartime act, self-defense, and other fine line actions), I feel that by trampling on another's rights, they have forfeited their personal rights. In such instances, I believe that the punishment should fit the crime. Now what that punishment is is debatable, but in certain circumstances, I believe the death penalty to be warranted.
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#234816 - 26/09/2004 02:37
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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hmmm, somehow I missed this entire thread. I just wanted to chime in and say this discussion is very thought provoking and some good points are being made.
The one thing I have to add is that while I can find support for the death penalty in logic and philosophy, execution is not something that sits well with my soul. There is something within me that finds that taking the life of a defenseless person absolutely sickening, far more so than the taking the life of an aggressor who is attempting to do violence. By that I mean I could probably take someone's life who was entering my home to kill or do great harm to my family, but if that same person were captured and disarmed I don't see myself being able to throw the switch even knowing what the intentions were.
What makes this video (which I haven’t seen) so gruesome to me is the thought of taking a defenseless person’s life and then making a spectacle of that act.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234817 - 26/09/2004 06:09
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
Out of curiosity, are you also Arabic (or of Arabic descent)?
No, I'm of Pakistani descent
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#234818 - 26/09/2004 06:28
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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I must say this is the most intelligent and open discussion that I've seen happening on this subject anywhere on the wwww. Most of the other discussions that I've seen (and the one on a rugby forum that I've taken part in) have been completely knee jerk reactions by totally ignorant people.
I had a discussion last night with some young muslims about a lot of the issues that have been discussed here and although most of them hold the west at least partially responsible for the woes of the Islamic world not one of them had any hesitation in unequivocally condemning the people behind this.
They're all looking for ways to express how they feel though and this is where they fall down, they find it too easy to quote verbatim badly thought out speeches and policies of the self appointed muslim "spokespeople". There are many like myself who are working to open the minds of todays young muslims and I'm confident that in say 10 years time there will be a vibrant, culturally and politically aware generation of muslims that will be able to start to turn the tide of public perceptions in the west.
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#234819 - 26/09/2004 11:24
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
They're all looking for ways to express how they feel though and this is where they fall down, they find it too easy to quote verbatim badly thought out speeches and policies of the self appointed muslim "spokespeople". There are many like myself who are working to open the minds of todays young muslims and I'm confident that in say 10 years time there will be a vibrant, culturally and politically aware generation of muslims that will be able to start to turn the tide of public perceptions in the west.
This is probably the most uplifting thing I've read in months. Thank you for posting it. The Muslim and Arabic culture is so rich and has so much to offer the world. I'm lucky enough to be exposed to it because of the community that I live in, and it pains me that for so many people, the only exposure they have to this part of the world is when there is an unspeakable act. I too am confident that in 10 years time or sooner, there will be an overwhelming force to counteract the bad stereotypes there are out there today (that are not actively being countered).
_________________________
Brad B.
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#234821 - 26/09/2004 15:10
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Thanks Guys.
After having a few days to reflect on what I saw, I can see how important it is that open discussions like this are allowed to take place. It's a shame it doesn't happen in real life politics!
I don't think it was the fact a man had lost his life I found so shocking, but the way the end of his life has been used (in our media also) in such a cold manor. I can't see how anyone one human can hate another or believe in something so strongly that drives them to do this kind of thing. The image of his head being hacked off and placed ontop of his own body will stay with me until the moment I die, I fail to see how either side could ever justify this kind of act.
Many many people have lost their lives so far in this "war" but these are different. This is the sort of thing that will swing the whole issue one way or the other. They are powerful images, and can stir powerful emotions among people, as I have found out. I can't help thinking about what would happen if public opinion shifted either way, could this lead to WW3???
I really really hope it doesn't!
Cris.
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#234822 - 29/09/2004 03:24
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
[...]So now we're shocked when some of the people to whom we brought our vision of a better life decide to repay the favor?
Oh, I'm disgusted and horrified all right, just not for the same reasons as some of the rest of you.
I'm with you on this one. I haven't seen the beheading video, but I've made it a point to look at photos and other videos that haven't been sanitized for the American public by the Administration/media collusion. I'm disgusted by what's being done in the name of "peace" and "democracy" by a country led by a self-professed "Christian".
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#234823 - 29/09/2004 07:13
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: canuckInOR]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Administration/media collusion
wow, i've always thought that the administration and the general mass media were on opposite sides, and would love to spite one another at every opportunity.
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#234824 - 29/09/2004 09:35
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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In general, does the majority of the Muslim population denounce what the radical extremists did? Or do they just watch idly and silently think they were justified? Note I'm not saying that's actually the case, I'm genuinely posing it as a question.
Most people that I have spoken with here seem to be numb to it. I saw on the local news a car blown to shreds and then a happy child after wards. I ask my roommate about it and he says it was a funeral for the Martyr. I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children. I asked how it affected him, and he said “I find it disgusting, but it happens every day.”
So I guess the prevailing thought is “What am I going to do about it?”.
As far as the war is concerned, most people I talk to here (and there are Muslims from all over the world here) are convinced that the US will not stop with Iraq. The joke is that any Arab nation without oil is safe.
_________________________
_______________________________________
former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234825 - 29/09/2004 12:35
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children.
This is one of the (sad) causes of such problems - Innocent children being indoctinated in this way. The truth is that they are just mimicing their parents'/elders' reactions to the events, but in doing so are learning the same traits and beliefs. Who was it that said, "Give me a child before the age of 7..."? Damn - can't even remember the quote correctly to google.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#234826 - 29/09/2004 12:45
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
I saw on the local news a car blown to shreds and then a happy child after wards. I ask my roommate about it and he says it was a funeral for the Martyr. I was amazed at how genuinely happy people at the funeral were, especially the children.
Where and what was the incident, and where are you?
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#234827 - 30/09/2004 06:18
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: image]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Administration/media collusion
wow, i've always thought that the administration and the general mass media were on opposite sides, and would love to spite one another at every opportunity.
Generally, that's been the case in the past, and it's still the case outside the US. However, the Bush administration has pretty much cowed any significant media opposition into silence with the 'dissent is UnPatriotic' thing. Combine that with the fact that the majority of the major news outlets (if not all) are owned by mega-corporations which have benefited significantly from the administrations pro-corporation stance, and relaxed FCC rules on media outlet ownership (not to mention that the majority of those mega-corps are owned by Republican supporters). That doesn't even take into account Bush's scripted 'meeting with the press' sessions, either!
The only decent places to get American political news are from non-American sources.
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#234828 - 30/09/2004 13:12
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Where and what was the incident, and where are you?
At the moment I am in the capital of Tunisia. The event took place in Iraq. Most of the news that I get here is centered on Iraq. Every evening there is a new video of a humvee
My roommate and I were talking and came to an impasse on the following point.
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
These organizations send these videos directly to the news stations they know will play them. The organizations that air these videos are for profit organizations. What do these two facts together mean? I’m not sure, but I pretty sure that it’s the question that I want answer.
_________________________
_______________________________________
former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234829 - 30/09/2004 13:26
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
I really can't say, there has been plenty of coverage of Mr Bigley in the UK and the papers were full of pictures of dead kids after Beslan
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#234830 - 30/09/2004 13:32
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: tahir]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Perhaps I am failing to see the forest for the trees in this particular matter. I really feel like there is no reason for these videos to be shown. There simply cannot be enough people that want to see these to justify showing every single one.
_________________________
_______________________________________
former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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#234831 - 30/09/2004 13:36
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
Perhaps I am failing to see the forest for the trees in this particular matter. I really feel like there is no reason for these videos to be shown.
I'd agree with you but I think we must be in the minority. I haven't watched TV news for a few weeks now
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#234834 - 30/10/2004 01:57
Re: I feel sick...
[Re: Whitey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
My roommate and I were talking and came to an impasse on the following point.
Are the news stations that show these videos (we saw another video last night of a British man begging Tony Blair for his life) merely acting in the best interest of their viewers by reporting the news in its entirety, or are the satisfying someone else by giving these films airtime.
Hey, how are things going there in Tunisia? Seriously.
I dredged this thread back up on the occasion of Bin Laden's most recent video. I was frustrated in my attempt to find a complete transcript, but this Reuters report seemed to capture the gist.
As I read it, I was struck by the plain-spoken, deliberate nature of U/OBL's Halloween message.
My anxieties about this situation are still influenced, for better or worse, by the writings of "Anonymous" (Mike Scheuer) in Imperial Hubris .
Scheuer spends a lot of time trying to disabuse his readers of the notion of OBL and Company as wild-eyed madmen. We may not agree, but he lays out a much more rational, internally consistent basis for Al Quaeda's terrorrist actions. He could almost say "Hey, you think flying a passenger jet into a skyscraper is *easy*?" "Do you think sawing off somebody's head in person (not from 18,000 feet) feet is *easy*?" From "Mike"'s point of viw, the theatrical carnage is a deliberately considered set of actions committed by people who are (in *their* universe) acting to defend their faith from the new crusaders. No choice. The 19 martyrs of 9/11 had to do it.
Mike posits that the West has deluded itself with the notion that the majority of Muslims just want to get along with -- live in peace with -- the non-Muslim Western world, and that OBL and troupe enjoy more support from the "Man-in-the-street" in Cairo, Tunis, Jakarta, Islamabad than we would like to imagine.
While Mike is extremely critical of Bush's mistaken f*ckup in Iraq, his prescriptions are unlikely to bring comfort to any Kucinich Democrats -- they are something not too far from "Well, dang, now that we have stuck our foot in it, we need to really kill 'em!"
Anyhow, any of that Bush*t about "They hate us because of who we are!" stuff is just that. Bush*t.
So, how's things there? Had tea with your censor lately? I hear that really helps!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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