#235538 - 29/09/2004 13:09
POLLS: Symbolism
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
(work or no, there's always time for a little poll or polls!)
This pair of polls is for BBS listeners in the U.S. of A.
The question/s is/are. If I drive by a house (or am following a car) and I see an American flag out front (or on the car's bumper), what are the chances that I will disagree with the politics of the homeowner (or driver)?
Meaning, if you you took 100 such homes (or 100 cars), with how many of the homeowners/drivers do you think you would strongly disagree with on what you consider to be the main issues of the day?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235539 - 29/09/2004 13:31
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
This pair of polls is for BBS listeners in the U.S. of A.
FWIW, you could ask a similarly-symbolic question in the UK, with the situations (a) an England flag other than during the World Cup or Euro football (b) a Union Jack on the mainland and (c) a Union Jack in Northern Ireland.
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235540 - 29/09/2004 14:02
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Oddly, I think if you'd asked this before 9/11, I would have estimated a smaller percentage. That's just how it seems to me. I saw an amusing site the other day. I was driving behind a pickup truck with a cab on the back. In the window of the cab was an American flag sticker that had obviously been both out in the sun too long and of cheap quality, so it was now the good old yellow, white, and blue  Seems to me if you were so gung-ho about your patriotism, you'd at least want to have a color-accurate flag on your truck.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235541 - 29/09/2004 14:38
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: peter]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
|
Quote:
FWIW, you could ask a similarly-symbolic question in the UK, with the situations (a) an England flag other than during the World Cup or Euro football (b) a Union Jack on the mainland and (c) a Union Jack in Northern Ireland.
That'd definitely be interesting, as an ethnic there are times when the cross of St George can be positively scary
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235542 - 29/09/2004 15:18
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
It's actually one of the, admittedly non-binding, rules of the US flag that it not be printed on something disposable. Yet after 9/11 a bunch of newspapers printed full broadsheet sized US flags for people to display. If there's anything more disposable than newsprint, I don't know what it is.
Of course, this, combined with the fact that the proper way to dispose of a US flag is by burning it, raises the question of whether nylon flags are appropriate.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235543 - 29/09/2004 15:20
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: wfaulk]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
|
Quote:
the fact that the proper way to dispose of a US flag is by burning it, raises the question of whether nylon flags are appropriate.
Certainly not very environmentally friendly
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235544 - 29/09/2004 15:25
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: peter]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
Union Jack
It is the Union Flag. The Union Jack is the small flag found at the bow of a ship. I'll let you off, though seeing as you have a blue name and almost everyone gets it wrong!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235545 - 29/09/2004 15:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: wfaulk]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
the proper way to dispose of a US flag is by burning
Interestingly, there are a group in the UK that are lobbying parliament to make the burning of the Union Flag an offence.
I was under the impression that the idea came from the US. Does the US have a flag-as-an-effigy burning law?
Edited by mdavey (29/09/2004 15:33)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235546 - 29/09/2004 15:41
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Does the US have a flag-as-an-effigy burning law?
If I recall correctly, some people tried to pass such a law recently. I don't believe they succeeded, but I'm not sure. Of course, those were the people who also think that free speech is something you support when it's convenient and when such speech doesn't disagree with your own ideas.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235547 - 29/09/2004 16:00
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
(Anti) Flag burning will require an amendment to stick, and there are people pushing one.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235548 - 29/09/2004 16:11
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Daria]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
And these are largely the same people that would wear flag-emblazoned clothing, have flags on disposable items, fly badly worn flags, and all sorts of things that fail to show proper reverence for the flag. So I suppose that, in some ways, it makes sense that they'd also be ignorant of the proper way to burn a flag when pressing for an anti-flag-burning amendment. (To be honest, it's supposed to be burnt in a solemn ceremony, and the burning that they're against is specifically the obnoxious in-public sort. Which doesn't make the notion of a constitutional amendment about it any more palatable.)
Edit: Here's a page that details flag-related "laws" in the US Code.
Edited by wfaulk (29/09/2004 16:20)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235549 - 29/09/2004 19:22
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: wfaulk]
|
addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
|
I agree with you. Two things seems clear to me after reading para. 176 , titled "Respect for flag."
1. We don't need to amend anything to demand respect for the flag, as it's right there in the Code.
2. We can't ban burning it, as it is the preferred means of disposal.
_________________________
-- DLF
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235550 - 29/09/2004 19:30
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: DLF]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Those trying to ban the burning are talking about the anti-american-rally kind of burning, where it's not for disposal and not done in a solemn ceremony.
Like I said, some people seem to think free speech is something you allow only when it's convenient.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235551 - 29/09/2004 19:57
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
|
This poll should first try to find out what side of the political spectrum a person is on and then see their reaction to the American flag.
On my lawn, I have an American flag that is the same size, shape and materials as the political lawn signs out there. It's clearly a political sign, but all it has is the flag. Because of this, I'd gather that 90% of my neighbors, who I've never talked to about politics, know who I'm voting for.
EDIT: Wow, it didn't even take one page for a thread about the American flag for someone to bring up the concept of burning it...
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (29/09/2004 19:59)
_________________________
Brad B.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235552 - 29/09/2004 20:27
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tfabris]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
Some people seem to think free speech is something you allow only when it's convenient.
Are you one of these people? I so want to disagree with your statement. What does burning the flag say?
It says that you either disrespect the flag (perhaps you don't like the flag - perhaps you think it should be a different design or in different colours?) - or, more likely, that you disrespect the thing (normally: country) that the flag represents.
If you choose to burn the Union Flag in the UK or the Stars and Stripes in the US - well, what are you doing in that country in the first place? Democracy is (currently) a national affair so to be a visitor, a guest, and to protest in this way is pretty meaningless and why should your host tolerate your behaviour? As a citizen, protest is valid when the target is the govenment, parliament or any other group - but the nation? You want to protest about the nation? Well that is fine. Protest by leaving. The exits are here, here, here, here, here, here, & here!
Burning flags isn't speech - you aren't writing, filming or talking about it. Burning flags is an act. Should free speech be protected? Sure. Should societies be tolerant? Yes. Should those that disrespect that society be tolerated? No.
Edited by mdavey (29/09/2004 20:30)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235553 - 29/09/2004 20:54
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
why should your host tolerate your behaviour?
When the host values (or at least, claims to value) personal freedom and liberty above all else.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235554 - 29/09/2004 20:57
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
Should those that disrespect that society be tolerated? No.
And just how far is it from disrespecting the government to disrespecting the society? How far is it from not living up to the ideals required by that society? What if those ideals are someone elses ideals?
Everybody should be tolerated, as long as they cause no harm to others. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235555 - 29/09/2004 21:15
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
I love debates like this - really gets me thinking! Continuing to play devlis advocate for the moment... Tony said: Quote:
When the host values (or at least, claims to value) personal freedom and liberty above all else.
How far do you let that go? Doesn't that just lead to a selfish attitude of "I'm going to do what I want and I don't care what society thinks of me" ?
Roger said:
Quote:
And just how far is it from disrespecting the government to disrespecting the society? How far is it from not living up to the ideals required by that society? What if those ideals are someone elses ideals?
Isn't that what democratic society is about? The masses elect the few. The few attempt to gauge what ideals society currently value and pass laws to protect those ideals. The minority that choose to live in that society but not by those ideals are removed from society (to jail, typically).
Quote:
Everybody should be tolerated, as long as they cause no harm to others. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?
How do you define harm? Do you consider causing distress to others harmful? What about inciting anger?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235556 - 29/09/2004 21:22
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
How far do you let that go? Doesn't that just lead to a selfish attitude of "I'm going to do what I want and I don't care what society thinks of me" ?
No, it doesn't lead to that. Clearly, there's a difference between protesting your own government, and being a lawless anarchist.
The laws that protect us from the latter are important. But as soon as we start enacting laws that protect us from the former, then we no longer live in a democratic society where free speech and dissent are part of the very fabric of the government itself.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235557 - 29/09/2004 21:52
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tfabris]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
No, it doesn't lead to that. Clearly, there's a difference between protesting your own government, and being a lawless anarchist.
When I wrote "do what I want", I meant things like someone with no work ethic - they work when they want and claim benefits otherwise, or acting like a yob or just generally acting in a way that most of society would find distasteful but who isn't necessarily breaking any laws.
Q. Do you believe there is ever a scenario when breaking the law can be justified?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235558 - 29/09/2004 22:00
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Q. Do you believe there is ever a scenario when breaking the law can be justified?
Of course. Depends on the law and who/why it was broken, but that's one reason why there are judges and juries. And why sentencing for a crime is not always the same each time the crime is committed.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235559 - 29/09/2004 22:41
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
Burning flags isn't speech - you aren't writing, filming or talking about it
Well, not audible speech perhaps.
But it can certainly be a dramatic expression of opinion.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235560 - 29/09/2004 23:04
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Not to mention that if you do burn a flag in protest, you are doing so in hopes that the press films and photographs and writes about it, and so you'd darn sure better talk about it, loudly and clearly.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235561 - 29/09/2004 23:06
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
new poster
Registered: 01/10/2000
Posts: 13
|
Hrm. But I was born 'here'. Why should I have to leave, if I don't like it? What gives 'them' more claim to making rules?
As for disrespecting society... which society? The one you currently live in? The one I currently live in? The one currently being lived in, regardless of what it's like?
Quote:
Q. Do you believe there is ever a scenario when breaking the law can be justified?
Absolutely. As far as *justification*, the legallity of an act never even enters the picture. And you?
Edited by dmallory (29/09/2004 23:11)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235562 - 29/09/2004 23:12
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: dmallory]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Why should I have to leave, if I don't like it?
Especially if "here" is a democracy, where people are allowed to voice dissatisfaction and call for change.
No government ever changed for the better because people sat around and said they were happy with it. A society where no one is dissatisfied is called a Utopia...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235563 - 30/09/2004 02:38
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
This poll should first try to find out what side of the political spectrum a person is on and then see their reaction to the American flag.
(NOTE: As soon as I posted it -- I was tired -- I knew I should have referred to it as a single poll with multiple questions. Duh! Have I never done this before? Forgive me.)
Brad, I specifically avoided asking anything about political leanings before asking the poll questions. I mean, we *know* that the BBS is under the sway of a bunch of Maoist conspiracy theorists, right? (left!) I'll stipuleft to that!
The idea for this was triggered about a week ago on a rally in southwest Washington. Sure this is a blue state, but when you drive by the rural haciendas of Kelso, Hoquiam and Westport, you'll see a *lot* of Bush/Cheney signs and a *lot* of American flags flying.
It made me think. Forty years ago, my family put out the Stars and Stripes on a summer cottage every day. Eastern Democrats. I am not sure anyone thought we were making any sort of statement vis-a-vis left/right..
The results of the *very* unscientific poll seem to confirm my sense of what I thought all of the leftists on the BBS might think (and our minority right-wing maniacs, too!) Flying the S-n-S on your porch might not be interpreted as *too* much of a political statement, but putting the S-n-S on you car *is*.
OK, I knew this. Looking at cars with S-n-S on the bumpers (and evaluating that in the context of the frequently co-resident "Defend Quemoy!", "POW/MIA", "Clinton Will work for Sex". "This Car Protected by Smith and Wesson"), I pretty much decided some time ago that I wouldn't be slapping the Stars and Bars on the Subaru. It would seem that flying the flag on the car would be sending the signal to other flag flyers that I am in accord. Fair? I wouldn't want to send that message. I fly the flag on my US-registered vessel because doing otherwise would seem ....unthinkable. My old man would kill me!
Quote:
On my lawn, I have an American flag that is the same size, shape and materials as the political lawn signs out there. It's clearly a political sign, but all it has is the flag. Because of this, I'd gather that 90% of my neighbors, who I've never talked to about politics, know who I'm voting for.
Ach, they're just a bunch of unemployed, welfare-sucking psychics. (edit: I really just meant a joke about unemployed psychics knowing who Brad would vote for. I don't know why I had to throw in that they are "welfare-sucking psychics". That was uncalled for. Just a joke, but uncalled for. Thankfully, I can have 100% confidence that any psychics out there know what is truly in my heart.)
Quote:
EDIT: Wow, it didn't even take one page for a thread about the American flag for someone to bring up the concept of burning it...
Well, at least nobody has mentioned Nazis yet .
Oops.
Edited by jimhogan (30/09/2004 12:56)
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235564 - 30/09/2004 02:53
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Oddly, I think if you'd asked this before 9/11, I would have estimated a smaller percentage. That's just how it seems to me.
I've had dinner with old friends in Boston over the past few years. Cynics like me, they mentioned the bloom of American flags after 9/11 and their skepticism of what they consider near-jingoist flag-waving.
I have been impressed and puzzled by the ubiquitous (and sometimes fading) "The Power of Pride" stars-and-bars bumper stickers. Who made them? What does "The Power of Pride" mean? What is the intended point? Feel good?
Anyone with "The Power of Pride" insider info please chime in. Oh, and if anyone has insider info on the origin of "Proud to be an American", please share with the group.
Quote:
I saw an amusing site the other day. I was driving behind a pickup truck with a cab on the back. In the window of the cab was an American flag sticker that had obviously been both out in the sun too long and of cheap quality, so it was now the good old yellow, white, and blue Seems to me if you were so gung-ho about your patriotism, you'd at least want to have a color-accurate flag on your truck.
It seems a morbid interest, and I don't have the time or resources to study it systematically/scientifically, but I do find the rise and fall of flag waving very interesting. How many fire trucks do you see today in the U.S. with the Stars and Stripes flying? What happened?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235565 - 30/09/2004 02:54
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
I had a discussion with my wife a few months ago about flying a Westmoreland County flag, a Pennsylvania flag, but not the Stars and Stripes. After some discussion my conclusion was that while it might be making the political statement I thought I wanted to make, that perhaps that was not after all the statement I wanted to make. I'm already "that kook with the robotic lawnmower" etc, a conscious attempt to alienate neighbors isn't really interesting or useful. I already don't know enough of my neighbors, and I think it's more interesting to find out what they believe, and why, than to just write them off and have them do the same of me. Out of that discussion came the wild idea (also not acted on) of walking around, knocking on doors, and just asking people how they intend to vote and why. Why ask? I'm curious.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235566 - 30/09/2004 03:07
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Daria]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
I had a discussion wife [.....] After some discussion my conclusion was that while it might be making the political statement I thought I wanted to make, that perhaps that was not after all the statement I wanted to make.
I applaud your neurotic, sincere, anxiety.
(Just kidding!!) But seriously, I really appreciate your dilemma -- what statement do you want to make/ how do you want to communicate?
I have traditionally been pretty bumper-sticker averse, but then I said "WTF? I live in a blue state" and slapped my "Bush/Orwell" bumper sticker on just to give a few folks a good laugh (it is remarkable. I have watched some people stare at it for 2-3 minutes before deciding what it might mean...) and, depending on how things go in November, maybe I will just leave it or replace it with "Don't Blame Me! I Voted for Kodos!"
Quote:
I'm already "that kook with the robotic lawnmower"
Quote:
etc, a conscious attempt to alienate neighbors isn't really interesting or useful. I already don't know enough of my neighbors, and I think it's more interesting to find out what they believe, and why, than to just write them off and have them do the same of me. Out of that discussion came the wild idea (also not acted on) of walking around, knocking on doors, and just asking people how they intend to vote and why. Why ask? I'm curious.
More applause.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235567 - 30/09/2004 03:11
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Quote:
I applaud your neurotic, sincere, anxiety.
(Just kidding!!) But seriously, I really appreciate your dilemma -- what statement do you want to make/ how do you want to communicate?
Well, basically my conclusion was that making a statement was the antithesis of communicating. And so I didn't.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235568 - 30/09/2004 03:19
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Daria]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Well, basically my conclusion was that making a statement was the antithesis of communicating. And so I didn't.
Derrick,
If it seems like I am teasing, making fun, or making light, don't take it that way. I really appreciate your dilemma. As much as I enjoy a venue (ummm, maybe like this BBS?) where you can let it all hang out, I think that the "statement versus communicate" decision process is one that not enough people and groups think about.
I often despair of communication, but don't we have to hope?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235569 - 30/09/2004 03:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Quote:
Quote:
Well, basically my conclusion was that making a statement was the antithesis of communicating. And so I didn't.
Derrick,
If it seems like I am teasing, making fun, or making light, don't take it that way.
I have a thick skin. You'll need to try harder.
Quote:
I really appreciate your dilemma. As much as I enjoy a venue (ummm, maybe like this BBS?) where you can let it all hang out, I think that the "statement versus communicate" decision process is one that not enough people and groups think about.
I often despair of communication, but don't we have to hope?
No, you're not realistic enough.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235570 - 30/09/2004 04:15
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Oh, and if anyone has insider info on the origin of "Proud to be an American"
You mean the thoroughly obnoxious country song? I can't stand that song.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235571 - 30/09/2004 06:34
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: dmallory]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
Hrm. But I was born 'here'. Why should I have to leave, if I don't like it? What gives 'them' more claim to making rules?
Because you can't change the concept of a nation. Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American? Put-up or shut up.
Quote:
Quote:
Q. Do you believe there is ever a scenario when breaking the law can be justified?
Absolutely. As far as justification, the legallity of an act never even enters the picture. And you?
[/devils-advocate]
I agree. It gets a whole lot more tricky when the question is changed slightly, though:
[devlis-advocate]
Do you believe there is ever a scenario when protesters breaking the law can be justified?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235572 - 30/09/2004 07:40
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
As a citizen, protest is valid when the target is the govenment, parliament or any other group - but the nation?
However lofty the ideals of a nation, the acts of that nation are the acts of its government -- and it is judged by others, and so in a sense defined, by those acts. Does anyone actually think that flag-burners are protesting against liberty, equality, and justice? Their very point is surely that the American flag ceased being synonymous with those ideals when it was raised over Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.
Peter
(And because before I've been accused of anti-American bias because of my opposition to certain currrent US policies, I'll add that of course the Union Flag has from time to time been raised over atrocities just as severe. But I don't have a problem with criticising my nation when it does something crap, and if Northern Irish citizens were burning Union Flags in Belfast in the 1980s -- which I don't know whether they were, it's not such a popular form of protest over here -- then I'd have been all in favour.)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235573 - 30/09/2004 08:08
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American?
Who defines what "anti-American" means?
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235574 - 30/09/2004 08:43
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
Who defines what "anti-American" means?
WordNet on Princeton defines it as "opposed to the United States and its policies". I'd generally go with this definition but I think there are some subtleties - it is possible to simply be opposed to the US, fulstop. Alternatively, one might choose to oppose the way the US behaves - behaviour can be decoupled from policy. So, three definitions.
This sub-thread started with a discussion about flag burning by protestors - often perceived as an anti-nation (eg. anti-American) act or at least a protest against the nation.
Peter makes some good point in his post.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235575 - 30/09/2004 09:11
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: peter]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
|
Quote:
if Northern Irish citizens were burning Union Flags in Belfast in the 1980s
I certainly wouldn't have agreed with anyone burning the Union Flag, but it would have been infinitely preferable to blowing things up and murdering police officers, soldiers & other Northern Irish citizens, which was a depressingly more typical form of 'protest' here in the '80s.
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235576 - 30/09/2004 09:37
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
...flag burning by protestors - often perceived as an anti-nation (eg. anti-American) act or at least a protest against the nation.
Which is exactly my point.
It is perceived as an anti-American act by some people. Why should these people unilaterally decide that it's an anti-American act, and therefore that the perpetrators should be deported from the country?
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235578 - 30/09/2004 10:26
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
How else can it be interpreted? It doesn't appear that anyone here thinks the S-n-S flag burners are protesting about democracy. They aren't burning the Bald Eagle (is that the correct name for the US Govenment flag?) so one would assume they aren't protesting about the president or the government as such.
It seems that they are protesting about the US, how it behaves and/or its policies.
You say "some people". What if it is the majority? From earlier posts, I understand that the US goverment can't currently deport for flag-burning. However, I guess a new law could be introduced if there was a majority consensus.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235579 - 30/09/2004 11:49
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
How else can it be interpreted?
Quote:
It seems that they are protesting about the US, how it behaves and/or its policies.
That's how else it can be interpreted. If someone is protesting about the US's policies by burning the flag, then how are they being un-American? They're exercising their democratic right to protest -- it's just that they're doing it by burning the flag.
Quote:
It doesn't appear that anyone here thinks the S-n-S flag burners are protesting about democracy.
Can you clarify that? I imagine that very few people protest about democracy. Maybe they want to live in a socialist state, or something. The fact that you live in a democracy is the very thing that allows them to protest. By banning protests -- no matter which form that they take -- you're slowly eroding the principals of that democracy.
Quote:
You say "some people". What if it is the majority?
Then the majority are wrong. Just because it's the popular view doesn't mean that it's right or just.
Quote:
From earlier posts, I understand that the US goverment can't currently deport for flag-burning. However, I guess a new law could be introduced if there was a majority consensus.
And it would be an unjust law.
IMO, some US citizens invest altogether too much (ego?, symbolism?, whatever?) in their flag. It smacks of jingoism to me. It's just a piece of cloth, people.
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235580 - 30/09/2004 12:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
|
Quote:
Can you clarify that? I imagine that very few people protest about democracy. Maybe they want to live in a socialist state, or something. The fact that you live in a democracy is the very thing that allows them to protest.
I think you're using a definition of socialism other than the economic one. I'd say socialism is a choice you make instead of capitalism, not instead of democracy.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235581 - 30/09/2004 12:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Because you can't change the concept of a nation.
Ah, but you can. When the nation is built on the concept of democracy and freedom, and the very ability to change your own government.
Quote:
Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American? Put-up or shut up.
Because America is specifically the place where you are supposed to be able to call for change if you think it's needed. If you can't protest, it's not America any more.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235582 - 30/09/2004 23:00
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
Because you can't change the concept of a nation. Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American?
Surely you jest!
Of course you can change the concept of a nation, most especially by protesting the state that the nation is in.
Disagreeing with the current lunacies being perpetrated by my government does not make me anti-American. In fact, if anything it makes me far more pro-American than the jingoistic right-wingers and their "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" attitude. The repercussions we will face from that attitude will haunt us for generations to come.
The America I live in today is *not* the America it was five years ago, and if by protesting current governmental policies I can in some degree try to steer it back onto a more reasonable track, I will do so. If that includes setting fire to a piece of tri-colored cloth in order to get people to pay attention to what I have to say -- so be it!
Being pro-American (IMnsHO) means not sitting on one's ass and meekly accepting as gospel whatever decrees are handed down by the government, and refusing to accept those decrees certainly does not make one anti-American.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235583 - 30/09/2004 23:41
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Surely you jest!
What Doug and Tony said.
Doug, I particularly enjoy reading when you get all....American! ..like that. Hear! Hear!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235584 - 30/09/2004 23:51
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
think people have the right to be... well... "whatever". I'd just like to reserve the right to bitch about it without being accused of refusing their right to speech
Brad, apropos this thread's turn into flag-burning territory, I can say that I have never burned a flag and for the longest time the thought never occurred to me. More recently, though, I have thought of burning one in public if only to reassure myself that some of what I think this Consitution is... is still intact. If I go nuts and do it sometime, I *completely* endorse your right to call me a screwed-up, flag-burning <supply your choice epithet here>.
Yeah, and so long as you don't shoot me or somehow cause me to be thrown into jail, I think we are good to go.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235585 - 01/10/2004 06:06
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
|
Quote:
Quote:
You say "some people". What if it is the majority?
Then the majority are wrong. Just because it's the popular view doesn't mean that it's right or just.
Okay, but democracy and society are about the majority view. Your rationale seems to be moving towards a belief system now. You believe your viewpoint is right based on your own values but acknowledge that the majority don't hold the same values to be true.
Quote:
And it would be an unjust law.
This also is a value judgement, isn't it? How does one prove that a law is unjust? Does such a proof automatically lead to the law being repealed? If not, why not?
Quote:
IMO, some US citizens invest altogether too much (ego?, symbolism?, whatever?) in their flag. It smacks of jingoism to me. It's just a piece of cloth, people.
Aren't they just showing their patriotism?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235586 - 01/10/2004 11:28
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
The thing is that this country was founded on certain priciples, and they all mostly boil down to the idea that you're free to do what you want as long as it doesn't impede someone else's ability to do what they want. There's obviously a lot of grey area there, as you occasionally have mutually exclusive wants. But that's why we have a legal system. Burning a flag doesn't impede anyone else's ability to do anything. Period. Lack of offense is not protected under the Constitution, and, as such, burning a flag shouldn't be taken any differently than calling someone an idiot. Quote:
Aren't they just showing their patriotism?
Their misguided patriotism, IMO, but yeah. On the other hand, no one's saying that they can't continue to complain about it. In fact, I'm sure that the people who are doing the flag burning would be miffed if everyone just accepted it. It's specifically the strength of that imagery and people's belief in it that makes it a powerful statement.
So, those who want to ban flag burning want to take away people's ability to do something just so that they won't be offended, and those who want to burn flags have no interest (at least as far as the flag burning itself is concerned) in preventing anyone from doing anything. Which seems more wrong to you?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#235587 - 01/10/2004 13:46
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
|
addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
|
Quote:
Okay, but democracy and society are about the majority view.
Some might say almost the opposite: our society's implementation of democracy, a representative republic in which people do NOT vote directly on the laws and issues of the day, is more about protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
As for flag-burning, this principle couldn't be any simpler: the flag symbolizes the right to burn the flag. This fact makes the act of doing so both fully protected and completely counter-productive,.
_________________________
-- DLF
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index