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#237635 - 14/10/2004 18:59 For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . .
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Would you support US efforts in Iraq more than you do now?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 14/10/2004 13:58
View the results of this poll.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#237636 - 14/10/2004 19:02 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Can I vote?
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#237637 - 14/10/2004 19:15 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: genixia]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Sure. . . why not?
You live in the US, but are not a citizen, correct?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#237638 - 14/10/2004 19:18 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
So the amount of support may or may not change based on who's dropping the bombs?

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#237639 - 14/10/2004 19:45 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Correct.

I voted 'No', for the record. I still think that it was a mistake to rush into that war to begin with, but now we have there is no immediate way to exfiltrate the troops without causing a power vacuum. This would probably lead to hardline Shias gaining the upper hand (with Iranian approval) and the Sunnis and Kurds being stuffed in the ensuing civil war, And that's probably one of the better case scenarios.

Now I do have to say that I would be more trusting of some the US actions taken in Iraq. I find it troublesome that immediately after the war, the US secured the oil ministry but not the ammo dumps, just as I find it troublesome that US taxpayers are paying nearly $1000 per section of concrete blastwall to fortify the green zone. I have a problem believing that segregating the plush palace and hotel areas from the rest of Baghdad is beneficial to begin with, but if it absolutely has to be done, why aren't we buying the blastwall from Iraqi companies for $100 or so that it would cost to produce there. rather than paying through the nose to import them from America? Iraq used to be a major concrete producer.
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#237640 - 15/10/2004 01:04 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: genixia]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
I find it troublesome that immediately after the war...

Are you suggesting that the war is now over?

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#237641 - 15/10/2004 09:56 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: tanstaafl.]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Good point! Insert "declared" in the appropiate position.
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#237642 - 18/10/2004 12:27 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
So here's my question (mostly for US this time): What is the difference between Kerry and Bush as far as Iraq goes? It seems they spent a great deal of time "debating Iraq", but the only thing I heard Kerry say he'd do differently is get support from other countries the way Bush is not. From what I understand (not just based on this limited pole), for the most part foreigners aren't going to be that much more supportive of Kerry than they are of Bush, making Kerry's stance kind of empty.

Now certainly there are TONS of differences between the way they want to handle things here at home, but it seems to me there's not much to debate over as far as Iraq goes. I'm not using this as a pro-Bush argument, just an observation that Kerry hasn't done a very good job of differentiating himself from Bush on this point (though that's probably an impossible task given the state of things- we don't have too many choices at this point).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#237643 - 18/10/2004 12:42 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
we don't have too many choices at this point

Exactly. The Kerry camp's implication is that Bush doesn't really intend to leave any time soon, as evidenced by such things as building military bases there. But regardless of that, the big difference is attitude. Bush thinks that this was the right thing to do and will proceed with this mindset. Kerry does not (or I hope he doesn't) and will proceed with that attitude. Unfortunately, the mess is still there, so you still have to clean up regardless of the intentions.

Personally, I think that Kerry is not hard enough on Bush about the war, and he can't be, since he authorized the use of power there. If I had my druthers, I'd rather there be someone in office who had a track record of being against this from the beginning. But I wouldn't even expect his administration to do anything different in the short term.
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Bitt Faulk

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#237644 - 18/10/2004 12:52 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
though that's probably an impossible task given the state of things- we don't have too many choices at this point

You just answered your own question.

Kerry hasn't distinguished himself from Bush in how he'll handle post-war Iraq because Bush and his administration have painted us in a corner. We were in for a dime, and now we're in for a dollar (or many billions of them.) The only way out is to do the same thing we did to Japan, Germany, etc. -- rebuild. The alternative, walking away and leaving the country in shambles, is not a very good idea, for reasons so obvious I won't mention them here.

The thing that would be different, other than at least an *effort* to bring other countries into the mix, is the presentation. Just as many prefer Bush for his straight-ahead, no-waivering "even if I'm wrong, I'm certain" philosophy, many prefer Kerry's "I think this is right, but I'm open to other points of view" approach. Now, I can't take the viewpoint of a non-American, but given the way America's goodwill has been squandered since 9/11, I'd wager that there are a lot of people out there who'd like to see more "read and react" than "decide and enforce" from the next President.

So, as you said, handling post-war Iraq is one issue that these candidates simply can't fight over. But don't underestimate the power of a change of face in swaying more nations to pitch in on the rebuilding effort.
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#237645 - 18/10/2004 13:00 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: tonyc]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
So, as you said, handling post-war Iraq is one issue that these candidates simply can't fight over.
I just think it's funny so much time has been spent by these guys "debating" the war in Iraq when there really isn't that much to debate. To me it just illustrates how much of this process is about spin and perception rather than how they're really trying to make a difference.
Quote:
But don't underestimate the power of a change of face in swaying more nations to pitch in on the rebuilding effort.
I don't, and that's kind of why I'm interested in what the non-US think about Kerry. I wonder if he's "just another face" or if they truly think he'll be able to handle things better than Bush.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#237646 - 18/10/2004 13:08 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: wfaulk]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Bush thinks that this was the right thing to do and will proceed with this mindset. Kerry does not (or I hope he doesn't) and will proceed with that attitude.
I don't know. It seems to me that many of his statements come off as sounding very supportive of the US in Iraq, just not the way it was done. Of course, he might just be trying to appeal to the general public. Honestly, I do find it hard to discern exactly what Kerry reallly thinks. It's not just the republican rhetoric about "waffeling", but it seems even now he wants to support the war in Iraq, but also not. I don't just see this as careful consideration, but as trying to be everything to everone, as long as it isn't Bush.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#237647 - 18/10/2004 13:28 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
He's certainly a politician through and through, but I believe that he will actually consider things as opposed to jumping to conclusions as Bush seems to do. In fact, in some respects, bending to the wishes of your consituents is a positive thing. It all depends on how much you bend. During this season, though, I think it's more about presentation than actual intent, and he's trying to get as many votes as possible. Notice how he always talks about "killing" the terrorists, hardly ever "capturing". That's very pandering, IMO, especially since the people that would offend (like me) aren't going to vote for Bush no matter what, so it's only going to potentially affect the votes on the Bush side.
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#237648 - 18/10/2004 13:52 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: JeffS]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
I just think it's funny so much time has been spent by these guys "debating" the war in Iraq when there really isn't that much to debate.


Ah, but there is. From your earlier post...

Quote:
the only thing I heard Kerry say he'd do differently is get support from other countries the way Bush is not.


Now, whether Kerry will *get* more support is open to debate, but whether Kerry is more likely to *look* for support is a no-brainer. The Bush administration doesn't WANT help. They've gone so far as to say "if you weren't part of the original coalition, we don't want you involved now." Does it get any more unilateral than that?

Now, Kerry's statements have certainly been forward-looking, i.e. "I will get help" rather than "I will ask for help." But in the annals of campaign promises, that's pretty tame. The contrast that the Kerry ticket is trying to underscore is that they are the candidates that are much more likely to try to repair broken relationships with our allies, and, if they are willing, allow them to participate in the reconstruction. Whether they come to the table or not is unknown (some have said they won't) but showing an effort to involve our allies isn't just a sign of goodwill towards them, it's a sign that the U.S. truly isn't interested in nation-building, but rebuilding the nation and getting out ASAP.
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#237649 - 18/10/2004 17:00 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: wfaulk]
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Quote:
... the people that would offend (like me) aren't going to vote for Bush no matter what, so it's only going to potentially affect the votes on the Bush side.
I'm not voting for Kerry precisely because of his bending and pandering (the same reason I didn't vote for Clinton). But you are also correct that I'm not voting for Bush, no matter what. Hence, I'm continuing to inform myself on my many other alternatives, a task made all the more difficult by the way they are virtually ignored by the media. (The last candidate that I felt good about voting for was John Anderson in 1980.)
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#237650 - 18/10/2004 17:36 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: DLF]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, perhaps you would have voted for Kerry, perhaps not, but you're not voting for Bush, and if you vote for someone else, you might as well simply not bother going to the polls. It's certainly not a win for Kerry, but it's not much of a loss, either.
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Bitt Faulk

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#237651 - 18/10/2004 17:56 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: wfaulk]
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Quote:
... if you vote for someone else, you might as well simply not bother going to the polls.
Needless to say, I disagree that voting for the best candidate has no value in and of itself. Admittedly, substantive change for the better can be agonizingly slow; in 1962, what would've been the likelihood that Martin Luther King would have a holiday in his honor?
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-- DLF

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#237652 - 18/10/2004 18:14 Re: For Non-US: If Kerry were president . . . [Re: DLF]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Insofar as the outcome of this election.
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Bitt Faulk

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