Ok, this will be the long running progress tracking thread for the tranclucent button project. When something interesting happens on the project, I'll post it here.

First thing, button color swatches. I've attached a photo showing the comparison between the color swatches (covering the buttons) and the lenses they are intended to match (all Filener lenses except blue, which is the anti-reflective original factory replacement). Yup, I stacked my six lit players on top of eachother and took that photo... yup, sure did... suuuure I did.

To save load time on the thread, I've only attached it, so click the "Attachment" link at the top.

Of course, the colors don't match perfectly. The greenish VFD vs. the white LEDs hurts the red, blue, smoke, and amber. I will fix this with the company ASAP. It took over 2 weeks to get these color chips, so it could potentially take that much time for revised colors (though we may start creating the mold now, so the wait times would overlap).

So, what do you think? Personally, I like the more vibrant blue, red, and amber and the true gray smoke. But they don't match, so I can have them washed out with some additional green or yellow. And what to do with smoke... I've never liked the greenish look of the smoke lens. Do I make the buttons greenish to match or leave them clashing true gray?

My goal is to make these buttons to look exactly how you want them to. Thanks again for your feedback.

Notes:
- I have no idea why the red looks so dark. The original red lens looks much more full.
- The green photo features Brian's original knob. The colors seem less rich though, and Brian's button looks more green than in real life.
- The amber photo features my prototype knob. A very good color match.
- The small size of the knob hole kind of puts color plastic in front of the LEDs. This should be cut away to avoid tainting and dimming the light. Amber has no problem because around the knob is clear. I'll mention this again later.

Nice!

Quote:
And what to do with smoke... I've never liked the greenish look of the smoke lens. Do I make the buttons greenish to match or leave them true gray?

Hmmm... I can see arguments for both; either they player should have all emitted light the same (ie go for greenish) or the buttons should flow better into the fascia (keep it grey/smoke)...

I'd like either - or both... Not being very helpful, sorry...
But highly appreciate the effort you're putting into this project!

Wow!!!! Very nice!!!

For the smoke, I would leave them the grey (not green) color personally. As it is, your current green looks (in the photo) to be a close match to the smoke lens. It is extremely hard to match the color exactly and a bit of contrast is not a bad thing. You are very close on most of your colors - red being the furthest off.

Again, excellent work!!!

My 2.5 cents:
From the picture it seems that the 4 buttons give more diffusion than the knobs - at least for the red, blue and amber. I can see the four leds behind the knobs for those colors while the green and yellow (orange?) knobs have nice diffusion. I like them better. Maybe I'm being overly critical, but since you asked...
Anyway, I second the guys' congratulations - excellent work. Now I wish somebody was just as active with the aluminum faces.

Uh, I don't think there are any knobs for any of them other than the green and amber... This is just a color test...

Sorry, I should have clarified. The samples are just little rectangular pieces showing four different thicknesses of the material and showing how they look both textured and untextured. There are no knobs on the red, blue, smoke, and clear (bottom) photos while the green and amber have knobs explained in the "Notes:" section at the bottom. (i just got finished writing an RFC as homework for a class, so i'm in this overly formal mode).

The pictures show the button LEDs hitting straight against the textured plastic, so the diffusion looks decent. But when the LEDs are filling the hollow buttons (and hopefully filling the sidewalls), the light will look even bigger and more defined (I hope). And if not, then blast, maybe I should have used the milky polyethelyne instead...

These are great!

It'd be interesting to see combinations like having the top button a different color than the other three and having all buttons different than the lens....

Way to go!

Fiewfox, Thank you for all this!

I think they look great. I'd buy a red and a full black set of buttons, and most likely a blue set.

Now, as to the fedback you asked, I think it would be best to match the lens color you mentioned, so I'd vote for that. Also, as I said in the other thread, maybe rather than a black set of buttons you may consider a "gray" set of buttons, same color as the fascia (plastic part arount the lens), so that the buttons are "stealth". I think that's a nice solutions for those who can't find a color that matches well the instrumentation or the interiors.

Just my 5 cents, hoping they're useful. I'd probably buy all the colors just as they are now!

Thanks for the feedback!

Quote:
having the top button a different color than the other three

So, like a Super Nintendo Set?? Well, here it is. Haha, that's funny, your comment just spawned a new section of the soon-to-be button website.

taym: So, is the current smoke color to light? Would you like to see it darker to blend with the fascia? I have two options for this:

One is the smoke buttons which will match the Filener smoke lens (ah, kinda). They will appear gray against the black fascia, which won't appear totally stealth but will be muted.

The other option are the flat black non-lit buttons. Maybe poke some holes in them to allow light, but they will give the stealth look (hence their name - the "Stealth Mode Set" (I couldn't resist, just wait till you see the logo for 'em)). Unfortunately, there are a million shades of black but I am limited to only one. I will preview a sample before they are produced, and if they look bad, I just won't have them made. Keep your fingers crossed that they match the fascia black. Ah, they're just for fun anyway.

[Edit: I couldn't resist Photoshopping that into reality. I also hacked the VFD to be "smoke" as I'd like to see it.]

Are these buttons made for the original fascia?

Yes, these buttons will fit the original MKII and MKIIa fascia. They will be exact recreations of the existing buttons, but using color tinted plastic.

To clear up any confusion, the photos I've attached above are not actual buttons. They are simply colored rectangles held in front of the button lights. The final buttons will look more full, like these prototypes.

I think they look great.

For me personally the red looks to perfectly match the dial needles in my car. I also like the look of the red and green mix as the green matches the dial backgrounds so I'm starting to think that those 2 would be great for me to do a little mix and matching.

I'm not fussed about matching the lens exactly. A little offset makes it more interesting.

Any chance for a "full set - all colors" option?

I love the idea of different color ala SNES style buttons, much easier to locate in a dark enviroment. I will be buying multiple sets since my car doesn't really have a color to match but I like variety and tire quickly of looks. I've been waiting a long time to get the colored buttons/knobs since Brian's buttons never materialized for me.

After trying to take pictures of the lenses, I know the trouble that you must be going through attempting to match colors. I think that you've done an outstanding job getting it as close as you have. I'd match as closely as practical with strong light dispersion and then if anyone wants it closer or something different, they can use the rainbow lens filters to change the color of the VFD output. I'd be willing to tweak the colors with the filters if the buttons gave off a softer glow (less point source light). Either way you've got my money when they're avaialble. Looks very good!

Mach: That's a good point. I've been thinking about the smoke issue and I wish there was an easy way that people could use taym's dual-filter solution to make the VFD look truely white to match. It would be sad to see those smoke buttons to made in gross VFD greenish-white.

Snowshoe and TankheaD: Actually, the "full set - all colors" was the only option I was considering for a long time; known as a "Super Set." But I think there are a bunch of people who will be glad to know that I will also be offering individual sets for sale. Keep your fingers crossed that the pricing works out as planned to let me do this.

And I plan to have a spot on my website to show people's creative and goofy photos of using different colored buttons, knobs and lenses; starting with the "Super Nintendo Set" and the "Microsoft Windows Set" (Green,Amber,Blue,Red clockwise). So get your creativity and your camera.

Oh, and TankheaD, in response to your other thread, here is a photo I took of my color samples against the original anti-reflective lenses. The original lenses tend to blur the image a little and mute the colors, best seen by comparing the Filener amber and original lenses. I really think there's something wrong with this photo though because the green looks too rich (hey, i'm not complaining) and the red doesn't look muted or green-ish enough. Anyway, it's a start; I'll try to get better photos if it's even possible.

Firefox, actually I have never seen the current smoke buttons "live". From the pics, when unlit, they look great and seem to blend perfectly into the fascia. My idea was just as easy: "steath buttons", as you rightfully said.

So, whatever solution is more convenient for you, it's good for me. Also the flat black buttons would be great, I think (making a small holes in them would be definitely good too, if one wants lighting).
I just though that stealth buttons are a good solutions for those who cannot match the gray ones (original) to anything in the car.

I am keeping my fringer crossed, and I'm curious to see the logo for them!!

Here's an update, a question, and a reply to hybrid8's post over in Projects.

I've been talking with my molding company to finalize the costs for the button project. It lost a month due to vacations (not mine) and having to wait my turn with the colorant company. We are still moving forward and I'm getting more ideas for how we can have fun with this project (more on that below).

I mentioned making a small run of solid black buttons and crystal clear buttons along with the colored ones. However, the cost of the project needs to be trimmed, so I will most likely have to cut black from the production schedule.

However, I do plan to make a full run of clear buttons which could serve as a starting point for experimentation and customization. I want them to be cheaper than the other sets to enable you to try different modifications with less worry. They could satisfy many previously requested features:

Paint them black, chrome, or whatever.
And mask off shapes to remain clear so light could pass through.
Or make them solid and drill pinholes for light.
Custom color the inside with a marker or translucent paint (if it exists).
Coat the inside with UV reactive material?
Cloudy, milky, mirrored?! Anything you can imagine!

I plan to make a spot on the website to house your photos of your creative modifications. Show off your work, share your ideas with others, etc. And if you come up with a humorous / clever way to arrange the buttons (ie: the Super Nintendo Set and the forthcoming Christmas Tree Set), send a photo for the humor gallery. This photo stuff is just an idea for now, but it could be fun.

So, what do you think of the clear sets, painting them to get black, and modifying them to get whatever you want? I will be getting 10 sets of clear to verify that the mold is correct, so we'll see how they look at that time. The less productive October did hurt the production schedule, but we're still moving forward toward the deadline of "as soon as possible." Thanks for your patience with this project!

Sounds good to me. I'd be up for a few sets of clear buttons. I'd like to experiment with the gel material behind the buttons to see what colors are possible.

Thanks for daring the button curse and taking this project on. I'm looking forward to the end product.

Clear sounds fine for use as a solid-color replacement if the paint recommended by Skunk is opaque enough to prevent light coming through. Could be interesting to give a base coat of white and then black, masked, over top. I'm definitely in for a few sets. I'll also take a couple of sets of red.

Bruno

Another idea, if you can get the caster to run a round of buttons using caster's wax, I'll follow-up on getting them cast in metal. I'll pay for the run.

I don't post much but still snoop a lot... and wanted to jump in here and say I'd like a set in red as well. I've got one of the Darkstorm red faceplates, and if the buttons match it I'm all over a set.

Thanks for putting in the work so far!

I don't remember if you mentioned it before (you probably did), but is there any chance you could get an original fascia made using lost wax?

Unfortunately no. The last place I spoke with was a manufacturer that does belt buckles. What they said wasn't positive. It seems that the metal shrinks a fair bit depending on thickness. He showed me the differences between the postives and the finals. It was noticeable. They used a positive in wax to a metal mold and then to the brass buckle. For the fascia, with a varying thickness , they did not want to try it.

JayF I believe is trying to get an original CNC fascia going.

Shrinkage could probably be compensated for if the tool to create the wax was created from a carefully oversized CAD of the part. My small amount of investment casting research shows that tools could be created from CADs using SLA. It's encouraging for the prospect of metal stock buttons and fascias, but if I dig deeper, I might find some discouraging information. I'll keep digging and see what I find.

Hey all, it seems like 100% full aluminum buttons may be hard to create because of the detail. So, I'm wondering, why not try the "Farnell button cap" idea here.

We could use the round Farnell buttons to connect to the actual button switch, then cast aluminum empeg stock button "caps" to glue on to the detailed Farnell bits. You would never see the Farnell bases, it may decrease cost, and it would probably make the project even possible. But, then the buttons would be two parts, which I've been avoiding since day 1. I'll see what kind of response I get from casters.

In other news, the lit button quote is FINALLY ready and my first payment check is nervously waiting to be sent. I delayed the quote over a month by doing the colormatching first so I could see the coloration price before I paid (because I was nervous it would kill the project). The production contract says they will be done done done in mid February, but I'm assuming two extra weeks for unknown whatever to get in the way.

If you have any extra fingers that have not yet been crossed, then cross them now and hope for the buttons to be available and ready by the begining of March. Very sorry for the long time it's taken, but I work slow, and I needed to do most everything I could to ensure that this project works out just right! Thanks for hanging in there.

I think a two-part button is a workable (and very good) idea. I'm sure you'll get plenty more praise, but all your efforts are reallly appreciated. Slow or not, this type of thing is a lot of work and everyone realises this (obviously) isn't your full-time gig. Nevermind that, can't forget that "life" sometimes gets in the way too. So thanks for all the work - I'm sure no one will mind waiting until March. Besides, that'll give some cooling-off time after the holidays.

Bruno

Good news all around! I can't wait to see these buttons.

Once again, thanks so much for all your hard work on this! I have all my fingers and toes and eyes crossed for ya.

ditto...


Sean in NC

Woot!!!
Sweet thanks for all the work you've put in.
Can't wait to get my hands on a set of blue buttons.

Bump...

Just checking up is every thing still a go for Feb.? (+ 2 weeks of course for the odd things that happen.)

Later,
Rob

Aw man, you beat me to it by just a few hours. I am still shooting for the early March deadline to start taking orders. After a long wait, here's an update:

The casters finally got to my project on their To Do list, made my requested CAD file changes, I reviewed them, and returned final changes. When they apply my updates, I will have the CADs sent off to be prototyped in SLA for fit testing; hopefully in green and blue so we'll have something nice to look at.

But here's the important part: I'm having two different MK2a knobs prototyped; one with a "two piece" shaft and one with a solid circle shaft. When I get these SLA parts, I'm going to do a quick poll to see which you like better. Since I don't want to delay the approval process too much, get your votes in quick. The poll should be up by Wed 1/12/04.

Or will a MK2a full circle shaft not work at all? I've attached a photoshopped pic of the CAD showing what I mean. Maybe it needs the "two piece" so it can be built tight and expand a little around the metal. Maybe the full circle will wear out and get wider so the knob falls off. Maybe the circular "spring" really is needed around the "two piece" shaft. But the Brian knob that I'm borrowing (nope, haven't stolen it Paul ) is completely filled with just the D shaft hole and it fits pretty well. And since my parts will be tough polycarbonate, they should be even stronger.

So, thoughts? Ideas? Are any of you still interested or will I end up with a pile of colorful plastic bits in the end? Watch for the MKIIa knob poll in a week and a half. And if you have an MKII only, you can vote to say that, because I'm curious to know how many MKII users are out there. Thanks everyone!

Oh yeah, and I made some encouraging progress on the metal button project. I got a rough quote that seems reasonable, and the design changes to make it work are not destructive. With these ideas, I can launch my typical "request for quote" assault on the investment casting industry to find someone with the price, procedure, and capabilities that are needed. There are still a few *big* unanswered questions, and I can't get to them until the mold-making/tool-building process is underway. Two weeks? A little more? I'll keep you posted.

I'm inclined to go for the non-solid, "inner collar" type. The solid ones tend (in my experience) to drop off the shaft just when you least expect it (in the dark, in traffic) unless you glue them on.

For the collar type, you can cut a slot across the face of the collar and then set the correct grip tension on the shaft with the original circular collet spring. I've got lots of them here.

I'm also all for the non-solid, "inner collar" type of knob. The buttons I received from Stu where the solid type without the inner collar. These were fine, till a hot summer day, when pushing in for a knob-press, I felt the knob sink farther onto the shaft a little farther, I guess the hot summer heat softened up the knob material, and now that knob will fall off if I hit the backside of my emepg, Sometimes it will fall off while just bringing the empeg from my car to my house. Also, I can't press in the knob without a small piece of plastic between the shaft end and the inside of the knob.

If you’d like, I’d be happy to take some pictures of the backside of those knobs.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have SLA's made of both types of MKIIa knobs so we can see how they look.

Rob, I was considering sourcing those springs but I had no idea where to even start finding them. Do you think they will be expensive... and even worth it?

Oliver, hopefully with my hard plastic polycarbonate buttons, heat (and cold) won't make them soft (or brittle). They should be pretty darn tough, apparently. I plan to stress test the pre-production run when I get them.

Well, there's no real point re-sourcing them - I have a bag of about one million of them here

This knob type was the final, and best, version in my opinion.

I'd go with the "two piece" shaft and spring if you can arrange it.

In reply to Mataglap's post in the other Buttons thread, there has been constant progress in the months since my last post. My injection molding company is nearly complete with the 10 week process of carefully carving out the metal molds. Soon, I'll be receiving a small batch of red sets and clear sets to verify their fit.

I'll be GIVING AWAY these first sets (if they fit and look right). Watch the General forum during these next two weeks for yet another new thread, showing off the buttons and explaining the give away. I want to extend the give away to people outside the USA, if the shipping cost isn't too crazy.

Until then, PHEW, I have to get my website together and tackle many many other formalities which I intended to do during the downtime as the molders were working. Metal buttons are also in progress... if those Farnell button caps ever arrive from that retailer in Sweden... EVERYTHING should be ready during April. Thanks so much for your patience, and wish me luck that these production samples look as good as we all want them to!

It is. I have done that a few times.

(Was that the wrong thread? Oh well.)

Glad to hear that it all continues to move on! I'm looking forward to writing you a large check.

--Nathan