#240465 - 07/11/2004 18:11
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: kayakjazz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote: Sadly, I've been voting against the lesser of two evils since I was old enough to vote. If Loren thinks 16 years are bad, try nearly that many administrations--not that I actually despised them all---but it does appear that if anyone this great country produces has the sense and moral fiber to be a worthy president of it, s/he also has sense enough to have no desire to be one. Certainly, with the scrutiny of each instant of their private lives and beliefs that's now demanded, I can't imagine anyone with either holding such aspirations!
True - political ambitions should disqualify a candidate. Which means that probably the best way to select polititians would be a lottery - something like jury duty.
But this also illustrates another peculiarity of American political life: you actually don't have political parties as we in Europe understand them; it's more like two teams in continous play-off: tactics continuosly changing, players being traded, but essentially just two franchizes doing their lucrative job. We more or less have four or five slots across the political spectrum (demo-christians, social democrats, liberals...) plus some folklore; the difference is in conrete issues, and you pretty well know where each party stands. Granted, the situation is getting a bit more fluid recently on issues like social security, country-wide collective bargaining, immigration...
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240466 - 07/11/2004 18:32
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: Jerz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote: Hillary will be here next election to make it all better...
I'm a liberal. I already have some of my liberal friends saying "You know what? We should all hope that Hillary runs next time, and we can have a Clinton/Obama ticket!"
I've heard that from about a dozen people, and I think there's a lot more of them out there. I can't think of a campaign with less of a chance for success. Hillary is more polarizing than her husband, and Obama is a great guy and could be a big political figure in the future, but I just think that for the time being he's going to put off A LOT of ignorant people in this country.
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Matt
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#240467 - 07/11/2004 18:41
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: And Kerry was the one who publicly told a citizen (during the 3rd debate) that regardless of what his religious beliefs were, he felt it wasn't right to legislate them and force them on those who didn't agree. He was, granted, speaking to the topic of abortion when he said this, but I feel it would be fair to assume that smae concept would carry through to other religious beliefs.
I'll only point out here that I am against the amendment (like Kerry), believe that "marriage" means a man and woman (like Kerry) and am for Civil Unions as an imperfect solution (again like Kerry). Yet I have been told that even that stance is forcing my morals upon other people. So either a) my stance on the legal status of marriage is more reasonable than I've been led to believe, or b) in the case of gay marriage Kerry was not holding to the standard he said when he answered the abortion question.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240468 - 07/11/2004 18:58
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: Especially given the fact that according to the Bible, nobody is born without sin, and therefore, one could assume, nobody is born innocent.
This depends on how you're using the word "innocent". There is a difference between innocence with regards to human justic and innocence with reards to devine justice. Origional sin means we are disqualified from Heaven because of our nature, but whether that means we are born already disqualified or disqualified for our first sin is more of a theological question (those I most respect say it's the former as you suggest, but I am not convinced). Since we all sin, this isn't a key point though.
Human justice is different, however. If we were to put to death anyone who's sinned, none of us would make it very far. A quick read through Leviticus makes that plain enough- thankfully (from a Christian perspective) God has given us a means of restitution in Jesus Christ (the OT had it in the sacrificial system).
So while an unborn Child may have inherited Origional Sin (based on your theology), this would only extend to devine justice, not human justice. Also, there is evidence that children who die are sent to Heaven, but that's a WHOLE different discussion.
Quote: So, Jeff, how many cells does it take before "life" comes flowing in?
I really believe it's conception, but certainly sometime before exiting the mother's body for sure. That seems like a very abirtrary distinction.
But the point of devling this was not to argue about abortion, only to say that it's not as simple as conservatives wanting to take away choice. We believe it's protecting life.
Quote: The most orthodox of the Jews will collect spilled blood and scraps of flesh because the feel the body must be whole to go to heaven.
Christians don't believe this. We believe our bodies will be fully restored so even those who have been creamated are going to be just fine.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240469 - 07/11/2004 19:02
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote: Especially given the fact that according to the Bible, nobody is born without sin, and therefore, one could assume, nobody is born innocent. Granted this comes from the non-Christian's knowledge of the Bible, though I have read it...
You remind me of a local journalist, a nemesis of our Catholic church apparatus (which has strong political ambitions). The guy is very eloquent, experienced, extremely well versed in christian theology (among other things), and atheist. Always fights on their terrain.
Although, hasn't Jesus taken care of the original sin?
Quote: So, Jeff, how many cells does it take before "life" comes flowing in? The most orthodox of the Jews will collect spilled blood and scraps of flesh because the feel the body must be whole to go to heaven. So when does life start? And do I need to keep my fingernails until I pass on? Please tell me.
Jeff acknowledged somewhere that this argument hinges on when you consider that human life begins. I could understand that someone with a notion of mystical "soul" being "breathed" into us making us distinct from animals believes that this happens at the moment two haploid cells merge their nuclei to form a zygote (however the idea of zygote with a soul might look strange ).
However, that is not the main problem I have with 'pro-lifers': as our kayaking psychologist Jean among others noted, right is doing nothing to lower the number of abortions: on the contrary. They try to supress sex education in schools (except "just say no"), withold money for condom popularization efforts (even as an AIDS-prevention measure), cut money from child care and other support for young single mothers.... And they continue to call pro-choice activists 'pro-abortion'. Liberals are not pro-abortion; abortion is the last resort, and only women involved know the emotional price of it. It is 'pro-lifers' who, in effect, are working to increase the number of abortions (and make them more dangerous for women). But they certainly have the best of intentions, so the consequences don't matter, right?
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240470 - 07/11/2004 19:08
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote: Also, there is evidence that children who die are sent to Heaven
Evidence!? Please, Jeff, enlighten me (and when considering what constitutes evidence, keep in mind that I am by training physicist).
No insult intended, of course.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240471 - 07/11/2004 19:29
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Well, that would be a picturesque combination, but I am affraid that USA is far from being ready for a woman president and non-white vice-president, even without the recent sliding to the right.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240473 - 07/11/2004 19:47
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote: Also, there is evidence that children who die are sent to Heaven
Evidence!? Please, Jeff, enlighten me (and when considering what constitutes evidence, keep in mind that I am by training physicist).
No insult intended, of course.
Agreed. If nobody has proven the existance of Heaven (and no, personal faith and beliefs don't count as proof) how is there a possibility of evidence of someone arriving there?
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Dave
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#240475 - 07/11/2004 19:52
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote: Well, that would be a picturesque combination, but I am affraid that USA is far from being ready for a woman president and non-white vice-president, even without the recent sliding to the right.
Sadly, I think if this ticket were to be elected, we would, in short order, have the Speaker of the House running our country. Sad but true. I think there are too many people in America that would no accept a woman as president and a black man as vice-president. Again, sad, but I think true.
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Dave
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#240476 - 07/11/2004 19:55
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: Evidence!? Please, Jeff, enlighten me (and when considering what constitutes evidence, keep in mind that I am by training physicist).
Sorry, that was a misstatement. To another Christian of similar beliefs, in context this would have been understood to mean "biblical evidenct", which means a biblical passage to support a theological belief.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240478 - 07/11/2004 20:21
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: Although, hasn't Jesus taken care of the original sin?
Yes, but only if we trust His death on the cross to do so. There is a lot of thelogical debate on the specifics of this point, but it's pretty clear that a) Jesus died for our sinds, and b) This is received by trusting in Him.
Quote: However, that is not the main problem I have with 'pro-lifers': as our kayaking psychologist Jean among others noted, right is doing nothing to lower the number of abortions: on the contrary. They try to supress sex education in schools (except "just say no"), withold money for condom popularization efforts (even as an AIDS-prevention measure), cut money from child care and other support for young single mothers....
I'll agree that the church has done a poor job of supporting its stance on abortion by following through. So much time and effort is spent on fighting abortion, I think, that the children are forgotton. With the abortion issue gaining new expsoure in this country, I hope the church re-examines its mission promot life, not just oppose abortion.
Quote: And they continue to call pro-choice activists 'pro-abortion'.
First off, I've never used that term, here or anywhere else. Not that you were targeting this at me, but this is a REALLY sore spot. I react very strongly when pro-lifers us this term and generally correct them if I'm in a place to do so. I completely understand that virtually no-one is "for" abortion; all it is is a an attempt deamonize the other side. I also think the same thing is true for the term "anti-choice", but generally people don't listen to me when I try to point out that pro-lifers are for choice, just that if it's an issue of life vs. choice that life wins.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240479 - 07/11/2004 20:57
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote: Sorry, that was a misstatement. To another Christian of similar beliefs, in context this would have been understood to mean "biblical evidenct", which means a biblical passage to support a theological belief.
*Derails the topic a bit*
I think this explains a lot in some of the communication issues that exist between the evolution folks and the creation folks. "Evidence and proof" seems to come from the bible and is widly thought of as fact. So when someone used to this thinking hears evolution is a theory, they have an easier time dismissing it due to the wording. Where as all it really means is the scientific community doens't write something as true 100% fact until the entire thing can be explained and proven repeatedly.
To bring it a bit back, this could be a similar wording problem with the whole gay marriage issue. Christians are used to the word marriage meaning a joining of a man and woman based on how it is done in the bible. While others simply see marriage as the same as a union. You can see this in how people use the word, things like saying "he is practicially married to his job".
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#240480 - 07/11/2004 21:05
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Eh, Jeff, if other Christians were like you, we wouldn't have most of these occasionally bitter discusions.
But I notice you didn't comment on the part about "zygote with soul" (OK, you did say elsewhere that you believe that [human] life begins with conception, but that that could be subject to debate).
How contraception fits into this in your opinion? You can guess mine. I think that efforts to depopularize use of condoms in Africa (of which not only Bush is guilty, but also, say, the most recent Nobel Peace Prize laureate) almost amount to mass murder.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240481 - 07/11/2004 21:43
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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Back again to the "we're not worrying about the life that's here, only the putative life to come" issue. I really admire your wide knowledge of our (USA; I'm with the Canadians amd Mexicans on resenting"American" as exclusive for us) history, political system, and issues. There is considerable evidence that high school kids graduating in Virginia, across the river from DC, can't name the last 5 presidents or the current vice-president (isn't THAT an appropriate play on words...), and that much of the rest of the country is worse, though at least the current polarization has waked a few people up....
Edited by kayakjazz (07/11/2004 21:44)
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#240482 - 07/11/2004 22:21
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: kayakjazz]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote: Back again to the "we're not worrying about the life that's here, only the putative life to come" issue.
Sigh, yes.
BTW, what is it that makes Christians (all three descendants of ancient judaism, actually) so obsessed with sex? Somebody once told me that the root is in wanting to be clear on inheritance, tribe membership and such, but that does not sound proportional to the scale of manipulation and supression. Besides, late Middle Ages Europe Christians were in that respects far more tolerant (while, say, Iberian Muslims were more tolerant in most respects). Any ideas?
Quote: I really admire your wide knowledge of our (USA; I'm with the Canadians amd Mexicans on resenting"American" as exclusive for us) history, political system, and issues.
Thanks. Yes, I will take care when I use 'America', and when 'USA'.
Quote: There is considerable evidence...
Quote: ...that high school kids graduating in Virginia, across the river from DC, can't name the last 5 presidents or the current vice-president (isn't THAT an appropriate play on words...), and that much of the rest of the country is worse, though at least the current polarization has waked a few people up....
Ignorance has always been right's strong tool... But, as Moore on the page you pointed to notes, this time more people voted for Kerry than for any other president in history, save, alas, GWB. That is something. Perhaps it can be built upon.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#240483 - 07/11/2004 23:38
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Quote:
Quote: Hillary will be here next election to make it all better...
I'm a liberal. I already have some of my liberal friends saying "You know what? We should all hope that Hillary runs next time, and we can have a Clinton/Obama ticket!"
I could definately see that and I tend to be a bit conservative these days but Obama is a brilliant, very likeable individual. I hate to say it but Kerry shot himself in the foot when he chose John Edwards for a running mate.... I never liked used car salesmen and this ambulance chaser is no different.
And the Clintons and Obama on the Democratic ticket with some noname running against them... well, I think the 1996 map says it all... Well, perhaps it doesn't say it all but I would be more inclined to vote for Obama than Kerry or Edwards...
Edit: How about Rudy Giuliani with running mate HIllary?
Edited by Jerz (08/11/2004 02:07)
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#240484 - 08/11/2004 01:19
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: jimhogan]
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addict
Registered: 13/07/2002
Posts: 634
Loc: Jesusland
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Quote: I suspect you are funnin' with me.
Quote: So, who do you think is going to win in Iraq?
Well, ultimately the good people of Iraq only I'm not sure of the cost.
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#240485 - 08/11/2004 09:31
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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A more relevant current comparison would be the outright banning of all tobacco. No one has seriously proposed this, though there are good arguments to be made. But several states would find such a ban unacceptable
I have frequently told people (without any research to support it, but suspect that I am indeed correct) that the government could show a net profit (well, actually, a net reduction of losses) if they simply took everybody in the country who made any part of their living from the tobacco business, computed their average income over the past two years, and then paid them that amount every year for the rest of their life as compensation for banning tobacco. The savings in health costs alone would pay for this.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#240486 - 08/11/2004 09:50
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
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Quote: as compensation for banning tobacco. The savings in health costs alone would pay for this
The savings wouldn't come until after all of us smokers were free from the addiction which could take a long time. Also the murder rate would rise dramatically and so would incidents of road rage and other acts of violence. Work production would drop sharply and hurt the economy and all of the revenue from the high taxes that we pay on them would disappear.
And while they're at it, they might as well ban alcohol completely which also causes quite a few health problems and costs the country money. That would go over very well I'm sure.
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Laura
MKI #017/90
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#240487 - 08/11/2004 10:01
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: Laura]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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...they might as well ban alcohol completely...Been there, done that.
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Paul Grzelak 200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#240488 - 08/11/2004 19:54
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: Laura]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: Work production would drop sharply
Are you telling me that the smokers you know don't spend a third of their time at work wandering around outside? The ones I know certainly do.
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Bitt Faulk
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#240489 - 08/11/2004 19:57
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: I'll agree that the church has done a poor job of supporting its stance on abortion
You seem to imply that there's one unified church. In fact, if I guess correctly, the single church organization you're a part of, the Southern Baptist Convention, has had severe rifts in it in the past couple of decades due to the conservative takeover in leadership. I seriously doubt that the organizations (actually, I only know of one) that were created are as anti-abortion as the "original", or, in fact, anti-abortion at all.
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#240490 - 08/11/2004 20:15
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: How contraception fits into this in your opinion?
I forgot to answer this earlier. Most protestants I know, myself included, have no problem with contraception (as it's pre-conception). The Catholic church has a tradition of being against contraception (except for "natural means") and I know of one protestant minister who is against it (he says he knows of only three others).
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240491 - 08/11/2004 20:24
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote: You seem to imply that there's one unified church.
Not what I meant. This is probably another example of a wrong context word usage. "The church" is routinely used among evangelical Christians to refer to the overall body of Christ, including all Christian churches which have similar beliefs regarding Jesus Christ and His death on the cross to pay for our sins.
Quote: In fact, if I guess correctly, the single church organization you're a part of, the Southern Baptist Convention, has had severe rifts in it in the past couple of decades due to the conservative takeover in leadership.
I have attended Southern Baptist Churches in the past, but while they have a similar doctrine to mine, I am currently attending a non-denominational church. This church has probably been pro-life since its inception 20 years ago.
Regarding the broader use of the word "church", I think most evangelical churches are today (if not in the past) pro-life. My comment was a concession that evangelical churches that (I believe) are correct in their opposition to abortion are not as aggressive in taking care of children in families after the fact. I didn't mean to imply anything beyond that.
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-Jeff Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#240492 - 08/11/2004 20:58
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote: How contraception fits into this in your opinion?
I forgot to answer this earlier. Most protestants I know, myself included, have no problem with contraception (as it's pre-conception). The Catholic church has a tradition of being against contraception (except for "natural means") and I know of one protestant minister who is against it (he says he knows of only three others).
I have to agree, this does seem to be largely the domain of the Papacy and Catholic adherents, though certainly there are some more (conservative isn't really the right word, and neither is radical) Christians who keep their children out of health classes for reasons of/related to it.
I can tell you that before college I spent 13 years including kindergarten in Roman Catholic schools, (and nursery school at a Presbyterian church) and I was required in high school to take health class, and sexual health was part of that curriculum; A survey of world religions was also required during that 4 years. Biology was one of the subjects I didn't care for, so I probably didn't take as much away as i did from Physics or Chemistry, but I can also tell you that I don't recall a denial of evolution in my science classes.
In that regard, my religious education was perhaps more "liberal" than (if all the hype is to be believed, and I'm not sure it is) a public education in, say, Kansas.
Now, the flipside is I can certainly remember an opposition to abortion during that time as far as what we learned, and, at least in religion class, we were encouraged in the direction of abstinence. So in that regard, I guess it was rounded, a "here's how you should live your life, here's what you need to know about life" education.
The surprising thing is that during high school I had a corporatist, fiscally and socially conservative philosophy, which went against the current of the social justice type of class I took as a junior, and now, years later, I'm on the other side.
I am 31. In view of the quote variously attributed here I am heartless *and* brainless.
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#240493 - 08/11/2004 20:59
Re: Bush-bashing Version 2.0 (ramble)
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: This is probably another example of a wrong context word usage. "The church" is routinely used among evangelical Christians to refer to the overall body of Christ
No, that's (somewhat) common usage, and I understood. But then you said that "the church has done a poor job supporting its stance on abortion", implying that there was a single stance. There is not.
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Bitt Faulk
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