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No doubt public drinking will be next, followed by the right to go out in public (which, let's face it, is a significant cause of accidents and death). Thank god we have governments to make these decisions for us.

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California, that country within a country, has been like this for years

The entire state of New York has been like that for about a year as well. New York City slightly longer than that even.

Doesn't seem to be a huge problem, If I want a smoke I just go outside. One bar by me took the roof off the back-half of their building and put propane heaters out there. That's one way to do things...

There is a bar in Saratoga Springs that had paintings on the ceiling forever. We didn't notice it until about a year ago...

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Well, I'm pretty anti-smoking, even got my wife to give up after years of nagging (okay, I had to finally resort to getting her pregnant, but it worked )

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but I reckon this isn't going to fly for a number of reasons, and I'm glad.

a) Why should the Scottish Parliament have the right to do this? Currently I can choose not to go into a smoky bar - and generally I do stick to the better ventilated ones (unless I am very drunk in which case I don't care) so a law to do this seems pointless.

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b) If they do want to do this, why not start easy rather than go for the kill at once (as this may well be too much) - I mean bringing in something like a requirement for a smoking licence may well persuade some bars to go non-smoking just as it's easier.

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c) Like I said, I hate smoking - but it is a good source of revenue. Allow it, tax it heavily, legalise cannabis and tax it too...etc all good money to go into the coffers (hopefully instead of my taxes going in there:-) - okay this one is a personal preference on the government to tax things I am not interested in

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Well, for every franc they made on tobacco, they spent *nine* francs on tobacco-releated disease care.

That's a good reason why I don't want a national health care plan. That way, people can have the freedom of choice to slowly kill themselves and I don't have to pay for it

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That's a good reason why I don't want a national health care plan. That way, people can have the freedom of choice to slowly kill themselves and I don't have to pay for it

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No doubt public drinking will be next, followed by the right to go out in public (which, let's face it, is a significant cause of accidents and death). Thank god we have governments to make these decisions for us.

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That's a good reason why I don't want a national health care plan. That way, people can have the freedom of choice to slowly kill themselves and I don't have to pay for it

I see the smiley, but I still have to chime in and say that this would be a bad argument if you *were* serious (because some people actually take this view).

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Texas to put all uninsured people with emphysema on a barge

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...make these sensible decisions.

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Texas to put all uninsured people with emphysema on a barge

Ok, I'll bite. Link please.

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Firstly, justifying a ban solely on the basis of some questionable analysis and some questionable scientific evidence isn't the way to do it, in my opinion.

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I would never imagine a prohibition against tobacco, for the same reason that I think the War on Drugs (tm) is wrong-headed and counter-productive.

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Before we go own, what experts in the field believe the body of evidence to be questionable?

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But I like the idea that I read somewhere, of increasing the legal minimum age for tobacco-buying by a year every year (or a year every two years)

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One big hook anti-indoor-smoking initiatives hang their hat on is that staff/employees in workplaces, restaurants, don't have that choice and that the negative effect for them is pretty much beyond dispute. You can say that they should get another job, but that isn't realistic.

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Smoking is a lousy source of revenue. I haven't looked at in a while, but it was the case that the French government did (and maybe still does) have a state monopoly on tobacco. Well, for every franc they made on tobacco, they spent *nine* francs on tobacco-releated disease care.

Yes, but how much do they save on pensions?

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But I like the idea that I read somewhere, of increasing the legal minimum age for tobacco-buying by a year every year (or a year every two years)

Doubt it would work here. Most people that smoke do so long before they reach the legal age anyway (at least here in the South).

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I don't know, but someone from the pro-smoking campaign was on the telly last night arguing that the evidence about risks of passive smoking (ETS) to the average pub-goer is flimsy.

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Aaaah, so I should enjoy while I can! I am temporarily in France where there are often not even non-smoking sections of bars, even restaurants.

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A coffee is not coffee without a small cigar.

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As somebody said here, evidence of dangers of second-hand smoking is not that firm, but it still makes sense to err on the side of caution.

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However, as Michael said, why not regulate minimal air quality? Smoking ban is the cheapest way to achieve this, good ventilation the most expensive - competition would create choice.

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Yes, but how much do they save on pensions?

I think this has been studied also. Yes, more YPLL (years of preventable life lost) means less pension funding needed. Problem with tobacco is that people with COPD and other tobacco-related illness can take a *bitchin'* long time to die and they are very expensive to care for, so your retirement funds are lost and then some. We had a guy in Boston in the mid 80s who have over 350 hospital admissions in something like a 5-6-year period. Anybody want to add up what the ambulance bill was?

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Oh, that the one with news anchor, Emmanuelle Gaume? Very relaxing delivery....

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Finally, if cigarettes are so dangerous (and I think they are), surely the correct thing to do is to make them a Class C drug and allow only registered addicts to purchase them in pharmacies just like other controlled (non-prescription) medicines? Or create a new class (D) and do the same.

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I don't think anyone can deny that passive smoking from a selfish minority causes harm

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And you don't think you are being a bit selfish yourself for not wanting smokers allowed in public places?

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...as addictive as tobacco is, I haven't heard that it has caused smokers to commit burglaries or mug passers-by.

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There's just too many rules and regulations and laws on what you can do or say or watch or this or that and more on the horizon and when or where will it ever end.What ever happened to live and let live,.....

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... now it's we have to make sure no one is offended in anyway.

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God forbid if little Johny should look in someone's window and see a naked person on a TV screen.

Well, when naked people come on my TV, I *always* close the blinds! Think of poor Johnny!

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And heaven forbid if I sit outside next to someone even in an open air environment and smoke. I prefer to stay home and keep to myself. That way I bother no one.

Well, I kind of think of this in the same vein as when I go to the park and sit down next to somebody with my bongo drums. A little "Hey, you dig bongoes?" always helps

Back to smoking, though, I think that somebody else pointed out the anachronistic nature of some of that past "freedom". I remember crossing the ocean on a full chartered DC8 way back when with half the plane smoking and the other half (literally) puking). In the early 80s, when I worked on an ICU that CPR'd smokers every other day, nurses could still duck into the tiny glass-enclosed conference space (right on the unit) for a smoke break. Now *that's* anachronism. In the US, I would say that the onward march of no-smoking-in-enclosed-public-spaces is pretty much a done deal.

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I remember crossing the ocean on a full chartered DC8 way back when with half the plane smoking

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In the early 80s, when I worked on an ICU that CPR'd smokers every other day, nurses could still duck into the tiny glass-enclosed conference space (right on the unit) for a smoke break. Now *that's* anachronism.

Definitely! Didn't they also used to put up signs warning people not to smoke IN or NEAR oxygen tents in hospitals? All that seems really silly when I think about it now.

Back before the workplace smoke bans, I worked somewhere where they had a special "smoking room." It was pretty cool. Basically a 20x20 glass aquarium in the middle of one of the hallways -- equipped with an airlock and super-turbo-industrial fans and filters to vent everything directly outside. The idea was they didn't want to lose smoker productivity by making them go in-and-out of security every time they needed a cigarette. But I think these "smoke-quariums" went away when smoking was completely banned in the workplace.

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"Live and let live" is not the case with smokers. Are you completely ignorant or just plain stupid? Yes, stay indoors and allow us to breath.

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You a smoker then, Rob? Even if you're not, I don't think anyone can deny that passive smoking from a selfish minority causes harm. Yes... thank God the government are around to make these sensible decisions.

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You've spent a chunk of time there [California]. How bad was that aspect of your visit?

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You can't very well just whip it out and give it a shake in public...

Hrmmm.... It'd be kinda nice, though.... you know, on your break....

I mean, if you don't smoke, and you're feeling a bit tense....

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If you've ever been on the tube then you'll know what I mean by black snot... Eww... Just think of the stuff that doesn't get caught!

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Putting aside the rather different point I was trying to make, I've been to several "smoke free" places including California, NY, Dublin and others.

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Incidentally, this viewpoint represents a 180 degree change of opinion for me. Until a few years ago I was an outspoken critic of smoking, smokers and smokey places. Since then I've found, as contradictory as it may sound, that many of my friends who smoke are also the people that are most fully living their lives. Perhaps they are more aware of their own mortality. It's a little tragic really.

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The dangers of second-hand smoke are documented but not yet as widely publicized as they should be. Smokers generally have a filter. Their unfortunate victims don't.

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If it there was a subculture of people who liked to burp and fart continuously, I'd hope that'd get banned, too.

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Would we rather have the Hemingway who ultimately blew his brains out over self-induced infirmity and depression or a Hemingway that ate right and went to bed every night by 9:30?

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That way I wouldn't have to listen to people go on about how great he was.

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I preferred Charlton Heston pretending to be Mexican, personally.

John Wayne as Ghengis Khan.

-jk

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Regardless of the lack of studies about second-hand smoke,