#286503 - 07/09/2006 23:33
Driving in Scotland
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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I'm considering renting (hiring?) a car for my 2nd week in Scotland after the empeg meet. I'm pretty nervous driving anyone elses car, so adding right hand drive to that equation seems pretty scary. That and I don't know the signs, rules, and customs of the road.
Is it advisable to rent a car if I want to see more of the outdoors? Or could I get by using train and bus? Any tips for renting a car? Thanks.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#286504 - 08/09/2006 00:37
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14484
Loc: Canada
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After being a passenger with Toby, driving us around through Yorkshire before the 2003 meet, I have vowed to never even pretend to have the skill to drive in rural England. SWMBO & I are using train/bus as much as possible for our three weeks in England this time around! Maybe the roads are wider in Scotland? Ha! 
Edited by mlord (08/09/2006 00:38)
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#286505 - 08/09/2006 00:55
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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I get a car anytime I'm over there. The country is much easier than London, though!
Being on the wrong side of the car, with the mirrors, shifter, and everything (except the pedals) flipped, my brain itself flips after a few hours, to the point if someone says "turn right", I want to turn left.
-jk
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#286506 - 08/09/2006 02:20
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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It's a load of fun. You should definitely get a car. Adjusting to the other side is no big deal. Many of the rental cards are standard transmissions.
Make sure you know how to deal with roundabouts before hitting the road (you yield to traffic already inside the roundabout). The rest is a piece of cake and a lot of fun. The speed limits are in mph, but don't seem to be enforced on the motorways outside the big cities. If you're someone who is lazy and hangs out in the fast lane, this won't go over well in Europe -- and you should be ashamed of yourself.
The other drivers are much more capable than in America, which makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant.
You simply can't match the freedom of having your own vehicle, even though the train system is pretty good. If you want to get somewhere out of the way, you'll be spending more on taking taxis from train stations than you would renting your own car anyhow. Except in the big cities (where they have good public transit), the train only stops in one place.
Finally, find out if your employer has a corporate agreement with one of the major rental companies, and then make the reservation using their corporate code. This could save you a very significant amount of money.
While I'm carrying on, here's one last tip: get yourself some currency for your destination before you leave. I bring about $200 in local currency so I have cash in my pocket and don't need to deal with airport currency exchange, which is a major screw-job. Put all your expenses on credit cards if possible, which gets you the market exchange rate with most cards. That and the $200-500 in cash you bring with you and you'll avoid the ridiculous 5%+ vig.
FWIW,
Jim
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#286507 - 08/09/2006 04:05
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I think you would be missing a lot if you didn't get a car. Scotland is quite a big place and having a car will enable you to see much more of it. If you are worried about driving on the "wrong side" I wouldn't let it bother you too much, see if you can get an automatic (we do have them here  ) maybe that will make things a bit eaisier. The roads here in the UK are all clearly marked and it won't take you long to get used to it, esp if you have sat-nav to help you along (maybe able to help here if you don't). I always use Holiday Autos, they seem to give a good deal at most places. Cheers Cris. PS - Go for a small car, they fit down the roads better
Edited by Cris (08/09/2006 04:07)
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#286508 - 08/09/2006 04:07
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/03/2005
Posts: 364
Loc: Probably lost somewhere in Wal...
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The driving i did in Ireland (with a rental car) and Scotland (with my own car, pictures salvaged from camera with a light leak) was very good, and i plan to go back there on my motorcycle someday. Never found such considerate drivers in the netherlands. There's these roads that are too small for two cars next too each other, and passing spots every 300m or so, where people wait for oncoming cars, or even for faster cars wanting to takeover. Try not to be outside during dusk: Midges!
Edited by Schido (08/09/2006 04:36)
_________________________
Empeg Mk1 #00177, 2.00 final, hijack 4.76
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#286509 - 08/09/2006 05:58
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Schido]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Never found such considerate drivers in the netherlands.
Unfortunately I have to agree 
Quote:
Try not to be outside during dusk: Midges!
Ahh, after Northern Finland I found the midges in Scotland underwhelming , still remember the time on the Finland/Norway border when I had to change my motorcycle tyre with my (full-face) helmet on, as the air was dark with midges...
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#286510 - 08/09/2006 06:02
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Schido]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Absolutely! Scotland roads were made for driving:-) Lots of Scotland is far away from train stations, and sitting in taxis for hours is no fun at all. Get a reasonable car (forget about convertibles - Scottish rain can be quite insidious) and enjoy the countryside.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#286511 - 08/09/2006 11:50
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Oh, and when stopping somewhere off the beaten path (and even when on it), carefully check around and under your car before driving away. I've found sheep sheltering under the car on several occasions...
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#286512 - 08/09/2006 14:03
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Oh, and when stopping somewhere off the beaten path (and even when on it), carefully check around and under your car before driving away. I've found sheep sheltering under the car on several occasions...
Maybe in a Landrover! The only sheep to get under my Smart would be a dead one!
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#286513 - 08/09/2006 15:29
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I had a problem driving on the wrong side of the road during the 2004 meet. I had to keep telling myself to drive on the left in my head.
I drove on the wrong side of the road again a few weeks back during Hugo's party. Something must have eventually clicked in my head becuase driving like that was quite natural the entire time.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#286514 - 08/09/2006 15:49
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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If you consider yourself at all enthusiastic about driving you should try it. It's not that hard to get used to, but I have been caught a couple of times on the wrong side of the road- especially when exiting a driveway onto a road with no traffic.
I imagine it would be much more dangerous to drive on the opposite side of the road than you're used to if you were on a motorcycle- there's no 'built in' cues to tell you which side you should be on (the vehicle is symmetric).
I say go for it- I always have fun driving in the UK. It will definitely give you new insights in driving etiquette.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#286515 - 08/09/2006 16:13
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Robotic]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Also it would appear that the further north in Scotland you go, the more polite the drivers are. I usually drive around Glasgow but for the past few weeks I've been driving to Perth and back each day - everyone is SO polite and well mannered - you get let out of junctions, let into lanes, if 2 lanes merge into one people don't race down the outside and cut in at the last second. Not what I'm used to! Makes a pleasant surprise for me
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#286516 - 08/09/2006 16:50
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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There are some lovely narrow roads in South Hams (Devon). I was hooning down a lane with the cow parsley batting both my wing mirrors and then I saw a "road narrows" sign! Down there the passing places were also very far apart too.
As for driving - definately get an automatic even if you are used to a manual, since the gear changing hand will be different, so it's one less thing to think about.
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#286517 - 08/09/2006 19:07
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
I had a problem driving on the wrong side of the road during the 2004 meet. I had to keep telling myself to drive on the left in my head.
Don't remind me :-)
Though it was really odd sitting as a passenger on the left hand side of the car while we were driving on roads in NL.
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#286518 - 08/09/2006 20:46
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: drakino]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Though it was really odd sitting as a passenger on the left hand side of the car while we were driving on roads in NL.
My passengers get that all the time The door handles have fingernail marks in them.
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#286519 - 08/09/2006 21:29
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: drakino]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
Though it was really odd sitting as a passenger on the left hand side of the car while we were driving on roads in NL.
They never try driving a RHD around europe then, that can get a little confusing at times. I personally prefer driving my own car abroad, but sometimes if you are not paying full attention it gets confusing at junctions
Cheers
Cris.
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#286520 - 08/09/2006 21:50
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Put all your expenses on credit cards if possible, which gets you the market exchange rate with most cards. That and the $200-500 in cash you bring with you and you'll avoid the ridiculous 5%+ vig.
That information is somewhat out of date.
Many credit card companies will now screw you to the wall. Citibank in particular.
They will charge you a ridiculous "foreign transaction fee."
I got massively nailed by this on a recent visit to Canada
So check your credit card "Terms and Conditions" carefully.
Or just call your various credit card issuers up before you leave.
I seem to recall that the Capital One "No Hassle Card" does not rake you over the coals for being a world traveler. I.e., no fees whatsoever.
So you might start there.
Under no situations should you use a Citibank card in a foreign country, as a local mafioso loan shark will probably give you a better deal. (Heck, even an airport Currency Exchange might be better a better deal than Citibank. Hmmm, possibly not, though.)
OK, back to the driving question....
I, too, recommend that you drive if at all possible. I enjoyed driving on the rural English and Scottish backroads.
Even the left-handed shifter isn't too much of an adjustment.
The only issues I had were with getting too close to rows of parked cars in more crowded urban situations.
Remember, it is the United Kingdom, not Italy! So you probably won't have to deal with people running stop signs at 100 mph or running you off curvy mountain roads (not least due to extreme lack of any mountains!).
Always think three times before backing out into the road.
And NEVER drive after having even ONE beer.
Your subconscious instincts won't keep you out of trouble properly,
even if you are in a region where driving-after-one-beer is legal.
In Sweden, a BAC of 0.00000000000000000001% is illegal. (So, keep away from the Listerine.)
In the UK, I don't seem to recall that they have a similar zero-tolerance policy, but why not be safe and just assume that they do,
what with all the wrong-side driving, narrow roads, roundabouts, and absence of any useful road shoulders.
[Hey! After all these years, it looks like I finally (recently) overflowed the 8-bit post count. Tune in after another half-decade to watch me go for The Tenth Bit!  ]
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#286521 - 08/09/2006 23:02
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Thank you thank you for all the tips. I will try to get a car for my final week in Scotland. I do want to see the rural areas, and judging by the national road map that I just bought, the trains won't cut it.
Being a stick shift enthusiast, I just might have to try it....
I was kind of looking forward to enjoying a glass of Scotch over dinners before driving home, but you're right, I'd better not.
Narrow roads would be no problem in my own car. Unfortunately, I'm paranoid of hurting someone else's car, so this may be trickey. Luckily my map shows the narrow roads on it.
Oh, and I prefer to always pay in cash while in Europe. Never using an exchange counter, I rely entirely on ATM machines. I try to avoid credit card for anything under $100 because of the fees. Mainland Europe seems to prefer cash anyway.
Thanks again everyone. I'm excited (and terrified because I have essentially no plans or reservations) for this trip. Leaving Sunday. See you at the meet!
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#286522 - 09/09/2006 04:58
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Being a stick shift enthusiast, I just might have to try it....
I hired a LHD stick shift car in Sicily a few weeks ago. As I normally drive a RHD stick shift (as you'd expect, since I live in the UK), I was worried about changing gears with the wrong hand.
Piece of p*ss. I'd pretty much got the hang of it before we even left the airport car park.
Oh, and the UK blood alcohol limit is currently 80mg/100ml. However, as others have said, I wouldn't recommend driving an unfamiliar car or on unfamiliar roads after even one drink.
_________________________
-- roger
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#286523 - 09/09/2006 06:27
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: drakino]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Though it was really odd sitting as a passenger on the left hand side of the car while we were driving on roads in NL.
Well, I am not very sure about what side is "right" or "wrong" anymore - some of my vehicles are RHD, some LHD, and I do a fair bit of driving both in the UK and over here. So it's more of a case of "ahh, the gearshift is *there* this time, and let's see, what side of the road this time?".
But the passenger thing tends to get really funny when doing UK shows in the LHD land rovers, especially the ones with zero visibility to any rearward facing angle - merging lanes or going into a roundabout requires Elaine to slide open the window, put her head out, look backwards and shout "Clear!". Of course everybody else assumes she (sitting on the right side) is the person driving...
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#286524 - 10/09/2006 04:12
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Though it was really odd sitting as a passenger on the left hand side of the car
I found that the oddest thing about passengering on the left side was that I couldn't get out of the car. It was really difficult. It was a day or so before I realized that I was subconsciously trying to push myself out of the car with the (non-existant) steering wheel.
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Bitt Faulk
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#286525 - 26/09/2006 00:58
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Thanks for advising me to get a car in Scotland. For the second week of my trip, I rented a tiny Fiat Punto 1.2 and drove through the backroads of the Highlands.
Yes, it was an experience to be had by a driving enthusiast (which I barely am). Manual transmission with the left hand, desperately maintaining 60 mph on single carriageways (aka: two lane roads?) so the guy riding your tail doesn't rear end you, forcing the car to handle at its best and overall pushing your physical and mental limits.
NOW I understand the European approach to automobiles, and why they disagree with the American approach so much. Small cars with small engines, overengineered to give great speed and handling, but easy on the petrol. Now I understand Lotus Elise, BMW, motorcycles, WRX, etc, and how they fit UK roads like a glove.
I really wish I had a dash-mounted camera to film the driving experience for the folks back home. They'll just never understand how narrow the roads were, how high the speed limit was, and how fast you'd be passed by a local for going under it.
Thanks for the advice, it was a great experience.
(P.S. Anyone know how to get out of a speed cam ticket that I'm sure I'll receive?)
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#286526 - 26/09/2006 04:27
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
P.S. Anyone know how to get out of a speed cam ticket that I'm sure I'll receive?
Yea, my advice is to move to America and get yourself an American driving licence where UK law can't touch you
If I can get caught on camera in France and not get a ticket I am sure you'll hear nothing of it
Do you really think our speed limits are that high? I think most people here would add about 10mph to any limit (except in built up areas of course) before even being worried about speed, it's well know for example that no police man will stop you on a motorway for doing 80mph.
I am glad you enjoyed your experience, sounds like you had a good time.
Cheers
Cris.
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#286527 - 26/09/2006 12:53
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
it's well know for example that no police man will stop you on a motorway for doing 80mph.
It's possible to lose your license for driving that speed virtually anywhere in the US, even without any prior traffic violations. For example, in NC:
Quote:
The DMV can also suspend your license for the following: ... A conviction for speeding over 75 mph.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#286528 - 26/09/2006 13:49
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
If I can get caught on camera in France and not get a ticket ...
I thought that they were supposed to be unifying the systems so that you could now get a ticket if you were caught speeding in Europe?
_________________________
-- roger
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#286529 - 26/09/2006 14:31
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Roger]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
If I can get caught on camera in France and not get a ticket ...
I thought that they were supposed to be unifying the systems so that you could now get a ticket if you were caught speeding in Europe?
It's a proposal, but I don't think it has got anywhere near being implemented. The diversity of traffic laws and the rigourousness of enforcement varies greatly, so there will probably be ECJ challenges even if it does go ahead.
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#286530 - 26/09/2006 14:35
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
it's well know for example that no police man will stop you on a motorway for doing 80mph.
It's possible to lose your license for driving that speed virtually anywhere in the US, even without any prior traffic violations. For example,
[snip]
I can't find a reference at the moment, but in Australia the driver is punished even if passengers aren't wearing seat belts, and the punishment on public holidays is double that of other days (for some reason!). Therefore it is possible to get a 3-month ban just for seat belt offences.
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#286531 - 26/09/2006 18:36
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
it's well know for example that no police man will stop you on a motorway for doing 80mph.
It's possible to lose your license for driving that speed virtually anywhere in the US, even without any prior traffic violations. For example, in NC:
Quote:
The DMV can also suspend your license for the following: ... A conviction for speeding over 75 mph.
It's a local thing, then -- California has a number of freeways that have 70mph limits, and there's no way that people would put up with a suspended license for 5 over. People routinely do 80+ on those sections. Of course, people routinely do 75+ in 65 sections, too. According to the CA DMV, a suspended license isn't a possible penalty for speeding unless you were caught driving 100mph or more.
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#286532 - 26/09/2006 19:14
Re: Driving in Scotland
[Re: Roger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
I thought that they were supposed to be unifying the systems so that you could now get a ticket if you were caught speeding in Europe?
Yes it's on the cards, but not all countries have their own points systems in place let alone cross border ones. Of course if the police pull you over the same fines apply as for locals.
Loose your licence for doing 80mph! Even I could do that in my Smart
Cheers
Cris.
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