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#290422 - 23/11/2006 03:49 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
I originally was going to ask if scans of hospital bills for stitches suffice, but I realized that I have nothing to prove. I'd rather come off as "a big talker" that an admitted self-centered bystander who takes no action whatsoever.

And calling me a "big talker" isn't going to make anyone less culpable for standing by and doing nothing.

The problem is, what most of you are saying about this topic is right in line with the majority of people, at least it seems that way to me. And I don't understand how we've gotten to that point. I don't ignore crime around me, and I don't spend time with people who do. Hell, I don't even keep my mouth shut about littering: I launched into a tirade against a little gangbanger a few weeks ago for just tossing his yogurt container on the ground at the bus stop. His response was to tell me to "shut the fuck up <blah blah blah blah>...." So, I picked it up and threw it in the trash. For which I got called a "little bitch".

Could I have gotten my ass kicked? Sure. But did I try? You better believe it. And would I have tried to do something to the thief in the situation that started this thread? Hell yes. Because if I don't do the right thing, then I'm as bad as him.
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Dave

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#290423 - 23/11/2006 03:55 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jimhogan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Quote:
Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

I think heroism is great, and I think it would be great if we can all manage to have the presence of mind to be heroic when heroism is called for, but it seems like it doesn't always work out that way.



I don't think it's a matter of heroism. I think it's a simple matter of doing what's right.

Quote:

Before I would condemn my weak-willed compatriots to the fires of Hell for failure to act heroically, I am guessing I would want to acknowledge that it ain't always easy-- on the spur of the moment -- to judge who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. So that can be difficult.


I didn't hear anyone having difficulty determining what the details of the situation were, really. Seems like good guy / bad guy was pretty clear.

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And then there is the matter of degree: OK, picture this: It's payday, and I just got off work at my not-much-higher-than-minimum-wage job and I am strolling past the Walmart. A guy is running past me with a cheap revolver, Hot on his heels, a Walmart security guard is running while shouting "Stop Him! Stop Him!". At home, I know that my wife and four kids are sitting at the dinner table waiting for me. Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, they are waiting for me to spend my paycheck on some food,

So, I have some responsibilities to society and family. Do I stick my leg out and trip the guy with the gun?


Unless you want to be (in part) personally responsible for anything the bastard does from that moment on, yes, you trip him. Or you can just go home to the wife and kids and tell them about how you let the guy go, and thank them for being an excuse.
_________________________
Dave

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#290424 - 23/11/2006 04:15 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
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Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.

I think heroism is great, and I think it would be great if we can all manage to have the presence of mind to be heroic when heroism is called for, but it seems like it doesn't always work out that way.



I don't think it's a matter of heroism. I think it's a simple matter of doing what's right.



In the "presence of mind" department, I am thinking that is not always a simple matter.

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Before I would condemn my weak-willed compatriots to the fires of Hell for failure to act heroically, I am guessing I would want to acknowledge that it ain't always easy-- on the spur of the moment -- to judge who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. So that can be difficult.


I didn't hear anyone having difficulty determining what the details of the situation were, really. Seems like good guy / bad guy was pretty clear.


I guess I am still stuck on the "matter of degree" issue. Do shoplifters necessaririly go on to kill Peter Parker's relatives?

I think that there is a relevant corollary here. There has been a lot of controversy in the US about high-speed police pursuits. Time was that police would pursue criminals at uber speeds in a determined effort to apprehend criminals, regardless of the cost to bystanders. Now things have changed. It has been deemed unacceptabl;e for cops to chase Walmart shoplifters at 120+ MPH because the associated costs are deemed unacceptable.

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And then there is the matter of degree: OK, picture this: It's payday, and I just got off work at my not-much-higher-than-minimum-wage job and I am strolling past the Walmart. A guy is running past me with a cheap revolver, Hot on his heels, a Walmart security guard is running while shouting "Stop Him! Stop Him!". At home, I know that my wife and four kids are sitting at the dinner table waiting for me. Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, they are waiting for me to spend my paycheck on some food,

So, I have some responsibilities to society and family. Do I stick my leg out and trip the guy with the gun?


Unless you want to be (in part) personally responsible for anything the bastard does from that moment on, yes, you trip him. Or you can just go home to the wife and kids and tell them about how you let the guy go, and thank them for being an excuse.



That cop *almost* had that perp in his grip when the Crown Vic's rev limiter kicked in. He has to go home and face his family. What does he tell them?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#290425 - 23/11/2006 04:21 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jimhogan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
First of all, Jim, I don't know what people do in comic books. Not a fan.

Quote:
That cop *almost* had that perp in his grip when the Crown Vic's rev limiter kicked in. He has to go home and face his family. What does he tell them?


He tells them that, unlike a majority of people out there, he tried, rather than just shrugging his shoulders and saying "not my problem, not worth the risk."

A poor showing, Jim, and you're being disingenuous. The key issue in my comments was the difference between trying to do something and simply doing nothing. To try to use the ban on high speed chases as an argument against that is logically flawed, and you know it. The cops try, but they have limits. They don't, however, simply say "meh, we might get hurt if we chase that bad guy. I'd rather just go home tonight."
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Dave

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#290426 - 23/11/2006 04:21 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Congratulations, you aren't a big talker. Like I said, I completely agree with the sentiment. You can call us all pussies if you want, which is exactly what you are doing, but I'm not a movie hero, and I can guarantee you that when faced with the choice of my life or saving a Walgreens from losing a $15 hair trimmer, you can bet your ass I'll chose not risking my life. And I think that what has changed is exactly that... the risk of losing life. If no one was walking around with a gun and all I might suffer is a broken nose or fist, then it's a whole other ballgame. I am guessing that you will take that as another "excuse" but it's a reality that a lot of us live in and see on a daily basis in big cities. It's not all black and white cut and dry, and if you play it that way you set yourself up for disaster and over-reaction. In my neighborhood, if I yelled at the thug at the bus-stop for dropping paper on the ground, I'd get beat the fcuk up, plain and simple. I've seen it happen. And I promise you, I would be beat down because A: I ain't a fighter... B: 5 teenage thugs will against my skinny ass isn't even a fight.

But, I'm guessing there's a deeper gut thing at the root of this argument. Maybe you are the type of person who'd run to the front lines to do battle wherever and why ever your government tells you, whereas I'd be a draft dodger.

Here's to idealism though... I wish we could all be as ballsy as you, because you are probably right. If we all did something in those situations, those situations would happen a lot less often. But in the end most of us just want to go home to our girlfriends/wives/wii and live to see another sunrise.


PS - I'd like to hear the story behind the stitches... unless you've posted it before.
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#290427 - 23/11/2006 04:41 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Congratulations, you aren't a big talker. Like I said, I completely agree with the sentiment. You can call us all pussies if you want, which is exactly what you are doing, but I'm not a movie hero, and I can guarantee you that when faced with the choice of my life or saving a Walgreens from losing a $15 hair trimmer, you can bet your ass I'll chose not risking my life. And I think that what has changed is exactly that... the risk of losing life. If no one was walking around with a gun and all I might suffer is a broken nose or fist, then it's a whole other ballgame. I am guessing that you will take that as another "excuse" but it's a reality that a lot of us live in and see on a daily basis in big cities. It's not all black and white cut and dry, and if you play it that way you set yourself up for disaster and over-reaction. In my neighborhood, if I yelled at the thug at the bus-stop for dropping paper on the ground, I'd get beat the fcuk up, plain and simple. I've seen it happen. And I promise you, I would be beat down because A: I ain't a fighter... B: 5 teenage thugs will against my skinny ass isn't even a fight.


<sigh> So much to cover here. First, it isn't a matter of protecting Walmart from losing a hair trimmer. It's about expecting more from ourselves. It about doing the right thing, even if there is a risk. Second, I live in Denver, in the city, not the suburbs. I used to live in Columbus, Georgia, and I'm originally from the Syracuse area of NY. So I understand what you're talking about. But it doesn't matter. The point remains the same. I am a bit of a fighter (actually, it's more that I have a decent pain tolerance and I'm stubborn ) And hey, I've gotten my ass kicked before (once nearly to death... come to Denver and my friends and I can spin the tale for you over a beer), but again, it doesn't matter. You have to do what's right, Loren.

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But, I'm guessing there's a deeper gut thing at the root of this argument. Maybe you are the type of person who'd run to the front lines to do battle wherever and why ever your government tells you, whereas I'd be a draft dodger.


Loren.... you should (based on what I've had to say about politics on the board) that that is ridiculous. My roommate is still laughing from reading that line. Soooooo not how I'm wired. I would be there in Canada drinking a beer with you and Mark, unless I agreed with the war. (Hint: I don't.)

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Here's to idealism though... I wish we could all be as ballsy as you, because you are probably right. If we all did something in those situations, those situations would happen a lot less often. But in the end most of us just want to go home to our girlfriends/wives/wii and live to see another sunrise.

It's not idealism unless you don't practice it. And it has nothing to do with being ballsy. Hell, sometimes I scare the hell out of myself, but I have to try to do what's right.


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PS - I'd like to hear the story behind the stitches... unless you've posted it before.

Which ones?

The one on my hand is from getting stabbed by a skinhead when I was 16 (they tend to dislike arguments that require heavy mental processing ), and I've got one on my right arm (nearly gone now) from scraping against some sheet metal while my friend Don and I were chasing down a guy who stole the tip jar from the coffeeshop we hang out at a few years ago.

Loren, I'm not calling any one a pussy for being scared. Being scared is a natural human response. Hell, that's why we have the amygdala (the Almond of AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!) I'm just taking issue with the back slapping "you did the right thing" party. It's not the right thing.
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Dave

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#290428 - 23/11/2006 04:42 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
First of all, Jim, I don't know what people do in comic books. Not a fan.

Boy, oh, boy. You *are* ticked off. I haven't been a fan of comic books since about 1964, but I know who Peter Parker is..

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That cop *almost* had that perp in his grip when the Crown Vic's rev limiter kicked in. He has to go home and face his family. What does he tell them?


He tells them that, unlike a majority of people out there, he tried, rather than just shrugging his shoulders and saying "not my problem, not worth the risk."

I am not imagining, nor hoping, that folks generally say "not my problem, not worth the risk". One thought that occurred to me: Dang, I tripped that guy and he turned out to be a cop!

It just seems that you are a bit on fire over this. So much so that I could imagine that you voted for Republicans and the Tums haven't kicked in yet.

Quote:
A poor showing, Jim, and you're being disingenuous. The key issue in my comments was the difference between trying to do something and simply doing nothing. To try to use the ban on high speed chases as an argument against that is logically flawed, and you know it. The cops try, but they have limits. They don't, however, simply say "meh, we might get hurt if we chase that bad guy. I'd rather just go home tonight."


I would liike to think that I don't aspire to disingenuity (sp?) but am perhaps afflicted with stupidity or bourbon. Poor showing? I leave you to judge. Again, I am not completely prepared to judge the worth of my fellow citizens' efforts to stop that shoplifter.

I have had my nose broken in the name of law and order and I would like to think that I would always step forward in the defense of right, but I have also managed to get into situations where right and wrong weren't quite as obvious. Maybe that is all I am trying to say. A little slack..
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#290429 - 23/11/2006 04:46 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jimhogan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
It just seems that you are a bit on fire over this. So much so that I could imagine that you voted for Republicans and the Tums haven't kicked in yet.


Heh. Second time in less that 30 minutes that someone has suggested I'm a pro-gob'ment person or a Republican sympathizer just because I don't believe in burying my head in the sand and watching bad things happen. So tell me, what part of the Republican agenda does my desire to do the right thing align with?

As far as I can tell, they haven't been concerned with doing the right thing for quite some time.
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Dave

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#290430 - 23/11/2006 04:51 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jbauer
veteran

Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
I think the saddest thing about all of this is that, for once, Billy is absolutely right and I agree with him 100%. Everyone who advocates doing nothing should be ashamed of themselves. Moreover, they should never again lament the state of a world they're helping to create.

No wonder we have so much crime in America.

Kudos to Ladmo, Mark, Visuvius, and Boxer for knowing the difference between right and wrong, and more importantly, between civic duty and cowardice. Being scared of retaliation doesn't excuse you from your responsibility to your fellow man.

Flame all you want, but this is pathetic.


Really interesting. I believe I DO know the difference between right and wrong - but wait a sec...

1) Am I really supposed to tackle a dude because it appears that he's guilty? Am I now judge and jury? Ok, that sounds like an excuse, but wouldn't I be committing assault? Another excuse? If some guy tackled ME in a parking lot and I was innocent of whatever crime they THINK I may have caused, I'd press charges and maybe sue that dip-shit.

2) You guys ever see the movie "Regarding Henry" with Harrison Ford? He goes out for some groceries or something and gets shot by a freak in a convenience store. Brain damage and stuff. That crap HAPPENS. You guys wouldn't find out about my brain dead-ness, unless someone here read it in the paper and figured out that it was me... (unlikely) I prefer to be sitting here writing this witty stuff...

3) This BS incident in a parking lot is not a battle of good and evil. This is not The Lord Of the Rings or Germany vs. England in WWII. This is some punk (probably armed) running from a shopkeeper and a keystone cop! Do I really lack principles by not sticking my neck out for that situation?

4) My favorite part of this thread is where Loren included the Wii in the list of significant others. In my case, he should have said "360."

- Jon

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#290431 - 23/11/2006 04:53 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
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It just seems that you are a bit on fire over this. So much so that I could imagine that you voted for Republicans and the Tums haven't kicked in yet.


Heh. Second time in less that 30 minutes that someone has suggested I'm a pro-gob'ment person or a Republican sympathizer just because I don't believe in burying my head in the sand and watching bad things happen. So tell me, what part of the Republican agenda does my desire to do the right thing align with?

As far as I can tell, they haven't been concerned with doing the right thing for quite some time.


"I could imagine". Simply a sense of absolutist, Repub-style black-and-white versus the despised moral relativist "shades of grey'".

But your rmileage may vary!
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#290432 - 23/11/2006 04:58 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
3) This BS incident in a parking lot is not a battle of good and evil. This is not The Lord Of the Rings or Germany vs. England in WWII. This is some punk (probably armed) running from a shopkeeper and a keystone cop! Do I really lack principles by not sticking my neck out for that situation?


Yes, you do in my opinion.

And how is it the punk is "probably" armed? Because he stole clippers? Because he was a man? Because he was in his "maybe early 20s"? Wait, is it because he was thin? Or was it the sweatshirt that increased the likelihood of being armed? The fact that he was running? Or was it that he was African American?

You have no good reason to assume he was armed. Any more than he had to assume you weren't.
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Dave

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#290433 - 23/11/2006 05:00 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
4) My favorite part of this thread is where Loren included the Wii in the list of significant others. In my case, he should have said "360."

I am not sure what the Empeg BBS Oscar award is, but you just got my vote. Or should Loren get my vote? Hmmmm. Lifetime achievment award for teh both of youi?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#290434 - 23/11/2006 05:01 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jbauer
veteran

Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
Quote:
3) This BS incident in a parking lot is not a battle of good and evil. This is not The Lord Of the Rings or Germany vs. England in WWII. This is some punk (probably armed) running from a shopkeeper and a keystone cop! Do I really lack principles by not sticking my neck out for that situation?


Yes, you do in my opinion.

And how is it the punk is "probably" armed? Because he stole clippers? Because he was a man? Because he was in his "maybe early 20s"? Wait, is it because he was thin? Or was it the sweatshirt that increased the likelihood of being armed? The fact that he was running? Or was it that he was African American?

You have no good reason to assume he was armed. Any more than he had to assume you weren't.


In the US, you should assume that EVERYONE is armed. Self preservation. It sounds like you have been lucky to have only gotten minor injuries for the trouble you've gotten yourself into. If one of those people that you tangled with WERE armed, you might not be arguing right now! Would you have been right? Maybe - but also dead.

- Jon

P.S. Found this on http://www.trivia-library.com/b/origins-of-sayings-live-to-fight-another-day.htm

The Saying: HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

Who Said It: Demosthenes

When: 338 B.C.

The Story behind It: In August of 338 B.C., the Athenian orator and statesman Demosthenes was an infantryman at Chaeronea, where a great battle took place between the Athenians and the Macedonians. The Macedonians were victorious, and 3,000 Athenians died. Demosthenes fled from the battlefield and was subsequently censured because of his desertion. To anyone who later called him a coward, Demosthenes retorted, "The man who runs away may fight again." From that line is derived the modern day version "He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day."

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#290435 - 23/11/2006 05:06 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jimhogan]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
"I could imagine". Simply a sense of absolutist, Repub-style black-and-white versus the despised moral relativist "shades of grey'".

But your rmileage may vary!




I know, I know, "I could imagine" is a great way to say it and not be held to it.

The difference, Jim, is that I'm not trying to push my morals. I'm simply asking people to be true to theirs. If you don't think there's anything wrong with letting criminals go, then fine; we'd disagree, but that's it. But nearly everyone has made it (at least to me) clear that while they know it isn't necc. the right thing, it's better to not get involved. I think that's crap. And I think it's that kind of thinking that's seriously harming the country. Because people who think like that help crime go unpunished. And they help elect shit presidents by not organizing and doing everything in their power to get someone worthy in office. And then they whine about it. They care more about their shiny new video game system than they do about their civic responsibility. And that, Jim, is sad.

And we wonder how the wool is being pulled over our eyes.

Nobody is pulling it over our eyes... we're putting the bag on ourself.
_________________________
Dave

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#290436 - 23/11/2006 05:11 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
I think that maybe you are talking to a different Jim. A Jim I am not familiar with.

Peace out.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#290437 - 23/11/2006 05:13 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jbauer
veteran

Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
Quote:
"I could imagine". Simply a sense of absolutist, Repub-style black-and-white versus the despised moral relativist "shades of grey'".

But your rmileage may vary!




I know, I know, "I could imagine" is a great way to say it and not be held to it.

The difference, Jim, is that I'm not trying to push my morals. I'm simply asking people to be true to theirs. If you don't think there's anything wrong with letting criminals go, then fine; we'd disagree, but that's it. But nearly everyone has made it (at least to me) clear that while they know it isn't necc. the right thing, it's better to not get involved. I think that's crap. And I think it's that kind of thinking that's seriously harming the country. Because people who think like that help crime go unpunished. And they help elect shit presidents by not organizing and doing everything in their power to get someone worthy in office. And then they whine about it. They care more about their shiny new video game system than they do about their civic responsibility. And that, Jim, is sad.

And we wonder how the wool is being pulled over our eyes.

Nobody is pulling it over our eyes... we're putting the bag on ourself.


I love this. I agree with you for the most part, actually. Why am I laughing out loud? Because I would NEVER have predicted that I would act (or not act, in this case) the way I did in this situation!

It's so easy to say what you'd do, it's another to hurl yourself at a stranger. I actually had 10 seconds, enough time to make a real brain influenced decision, and I'm really glad I didn't do anything. I know that I sound like a pansy to you. Maybe in the same situation, you'd act differently. More power to ya - good luck - hope your actions are successful, honestly!

I believe that I'd put myself in harms way in the RIGHT situation - a war that I truly believed in, a woman getting raped, to defend a friend - or myself, etc. This situation, however, didn't motivate me that way...

True to your morals? I dunno, I think it's pushing it to say that in a situation like the one I was in...

- Jon

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#290438 - 23/11/2006 05:16 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
In the US, you should assume that EVERYONE is armed. Self preservation. It sounds like you have been lucky to have only gotten minor injuries for the trouble you've gotten yourself into. If one of those people that you tangled with WERE armed, you might not be arguing right now! Would you have been right? Maybe - but also dead.


Look, I've had guns in my face. It happens, it's a sphincter-clenching experience, and yes, I've been really damn lucky that I'm still breathing, but Jon, it still comes down to the fact that I'm not gonna back down from what I believe because it gets dangerous. I'm just not wired that way.

Quote:

P.S. Found this on http://www.trivia-library.com/b/origins-of-sayings-live-to-fight-another-day.htm

The Saying: HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

Who Said It: Demosthenes

When: 338 B.C.

The Story behind It: In August of 338 B.C., the Athenian orator and statesman Demosthenes was an infantryman at Chaeronea, where a great battle took place between the Athenians and the Macedonians. The Macedonians were victorious, and 3,000 Athenians died. Demosthenes fled from the battlefield and was subsequently censured because of his desertion. To anyone who later called him a coward, Demosthenes retorted, "The man who runs away may fight again." From that line is derived the modern day version "He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day."


Really...what else would he say? Carry that sentiment out to its ultimate conclusion. When does the day to actually stand up and fight finally come? After all the running?

I tend to have more respect (ok, awe) for the Dienekes at Thermopylae. He stood his ground and fought for what was right. I'd rather have him as someone to look up to than someone who figured out how to spin running away.
_________________________
Dave

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#290439 - 23/11/2006 05:17 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
<sigh> So much to cover here. First, it isn't a matter of protecting Walmart from losing a hair trimmer. It's about expecting more from ourselves. It about doing the right thing, even if there is a risk.


I guess my point is that it isn't that black and white. You can say it is but it isn't for most people. Most people will chose their family over stopping the $15 thief if there's a chance of losing life or limb. I agree man, it IS about expecting more from ourselves, but when you say cut and dry that if you didn't do something you are somehow instantly a coward is pushing it. There's not doing something because you just plain don't give a crap if the guy gets away with it or doesn't, and there's not doing something because the risk involved to yourself out weighs the benefit to society in stopping the guy. And weighing that risk is every persons decision to make. For you it's obviously easy, you've been in fights, you can probably handle yourself, with that comes confidence. For someone who hasn't, then that line is in a completely different place no matter how much good they WANT or BELIEVE they should do. When it's futile it's futile.

Quote:
Second, I live in Denver, in the city, not the suburbs. I used to live in Columbus, Georgia, and I'm originally from the Syracuse area of NY. So I understand what you're talking about. But it doesn't matter. The point remains the same... but again, it doesn't matter. You have to do what's right, Loren.


And again I say it's not that cut and dry for most people and not because of lack of will. No doubt all of us WANT to do what's right. In any situation where you can do something that's "right", then agreed, you should.

Quote:
Loren.... you should (based on what I've had to say about politics on the board) that that is ridiculous. My roommate is still laughing from reading that line. Soooooo not how I'm wired. I would be there in Canada drinking a beer with you and Mark, unless I agreed with the war. (Hint: I don't.)


I wasn't speaking specifically to the current "war" at all, it just occurred to me that your argument sounded along the vein of an idealistic soldier. I didn't mean to reference either end of the political spectrum either. This point could easily spin off into another huge topic so I'll just skip it and concede the point.

Quote:
It's not idealism unless you don't practice it. And it has nothing to do with being ballsy. Hell, sometimes I scare the hell out of myself, but I have to try to do what's right.


So your saying it's a good idea to do incredibly risky things just under the guise of doing right? We could play a logic game of taking that to it's extreme but I doubt you'd agree with it at it's limits, which is why I call it idealistic. You can't say you'd throw yourself in front of a gun to prevent a thug from stealing a pack of gum. That is idealism. Everything in between has everything to do with being ballsy. It has to do with your personal level and ABILITY to actually affect the situation.

Quote:
Loren, I'm not calling any one a pussy for being scared. Being scared is a natural human response. Hell, that's why we have the amygdala (the Almond of AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!) I'm just taking issue with the back slapping "you did the right thing" party. It's not the right thing.


I see your point. It just irks me when someone makes black and white arguments out of something that clearly isn't. In this particular situation, if you think Jon should have done something, then that's all you have to say. But using this as an example of how everyone should ALWAYS do something when they see a wrong isn't reality, despite how much we'd all like it to be.
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#290440 - 23/11/2006 05:20 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I know that I sound like a pansy to you. Maybe in the same situation, you'd act differently. More power to ya - good luck - hope your actions are successful, honestly!


Jon, I don't think you sound like a "pansy" (can't help but laugh at that word) at all.

The best lesson I was ever taught was that courage had nothing to do with not being afraid.
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Dave

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#290441 - 23/11/2006 05:24 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: loren]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I see your point. It just irks me when someone makes black and white arguments out of something that clearly isn't. In this particular situation, if you think Jon should have done something, then that's all you have to say. But using this as an example of how everyone should ALWAYS do something when they see a wrong isn't reality, despite how much we'd all like it to be.


I think Jon should have done something.

I think it is that black and white.

I think people should always stand up and say / do something when they see a wrong.

That's the reality I try to live by.
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Dave

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#290442 - 23/11/2006 05:28 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
jbauer
veteran

Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
I think Jon should have done something.

I think it is that black and white.

I think people should always stand up and say / do something when they see a wrong.

That's the reality I try to live by.


I respect what you are saying, but I think it's more idealistic than realistic. If you lived by those words in San Francisco, you wouldn't last too long...

- Jon

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#290443 - 23/11/2006 05:28 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
That's the reality I try to live by.


So, in the end, I think it's fair to say we all TRY to live that way, but everyone draws the line at widely varying points on the line for many many reasons. And it's fair to argue that society's line is waining.
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|| loren ||

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#290444 - 23/11/2006 05:33 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jimhogan]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Quote:
I think that maybe you are talking to a different Jim. A Jim I am not familiar with.

Jim, I've missed you on the BBS, please come by and keep me entertained more often. Also, if you're ever in the bay area I'd like to buy you a drink.

On the issue at hand, I've got to admit at first I thought Jon should have stopped him, but in thinking about it more I've certainly come around. If you've lived in any sort of urban environment, you know to not get involved in other peoples disputes. If he had been hurting someone who couldn't defend themselves, sure, get involved, but if it's a matter of property, it's not worth putting yourself in harms way. Let the professionals who are trained and properly equipped deal with it.

Matthew

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#290445 - 23/11/2006 07:51 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: matthew_k]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Quote:
If you've lived in any sort of urban environment, you know to not get involved in other peoples disputes.

Moreover, you know not to initiate disputes... especially where they are not warranted.

How effective is the lesson of ranting at a litterbug?
It puts them on the defensive- difficult to teach them anything then.
Why not smile, say "Oh- that'll go right here", and pick it up without further communication and put it in the trash bin?

It's not my job to teach others how I want them to behave in my society. Even if it is, the best method is certainly not direct, abusive confrontation.

There's a chip and a shoulder around here somewhere...

Couldn't Jon have whipped out a camera and gathered evidence for the police? What if we all had that idea pop into our heads instead of 'I'm gonna give that turd what he deserves!!'?
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10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)

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#290446 - 23/11/2006 10:13 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
The Saying: HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.


Who cares what some greek fag said. Red, white, and blue: these colors don't run!

I'm not going to call you a coward for not stepping up and doing something. It's easy to talk big until you're actually there risking your neck. If the guy was 300 lb, I wouldn't have tackled him either. But I would have done what I could have in order to bring him to justice, and I know that that's what you wanted to do.

But what's really sad are these statements:

"Job well done!"
"You did the right thing!"
"Kudos for not trying to do what's right."
"You get extra karma points!"


That's bullshit, and it's the result of 25 years of indoctrination by the likes of Oprah. We are not women. We're fucking men. And we should stand up for what's right. Saying something like that is nothing but cowardice.

If it weren't for this cowardly attitude, three more flights would have gone down into empty fields on 9/11, instead of into their intended targets. Never again will that happen.

We are not little girls that run and hide. You are men. Take control of your surroundings and always do what's right. Afraid of retaliation? Imagine being in western Europe in 1940. Would you have stood up for what's right, or would you have taken the easy route, turn a blind eye, and let the Nazis have their way?

You may suffer injury for doing the right thing, but the alternative is worse. Because the alternative is to be ruled by evil.

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#290447 - 23/11/2006 11:17 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: ]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4158
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
If it weren't for this cowardly attitude, three more flights would have gone down into empty fields on 9/11, instead of into their intended targets.

IMO that's a bit unfair to the passengers of the other planes. It's hard to remember now, but before that day the idea of using hijacked planes as missiles wasn't really in the mind of the public. The passengers on the three successful strikes probably never realised that their own planes would be used as missiles, let alone that a salvo of strikes was intended. The only reason that the United 93 passengers knew that, and could realise that fighting back was a good idea, is that the United 93 terrorists "bottled it" and were half-an-hour later hijacking their flight than the other groups.

Fighting back would be a lose/lose strategy in a "traditional" hijack -- the sort everyone thought they were dealing with until about 9am -- where the hijackers view the passengers as valuable hostages, and have every intention of landing the plane safely, if elsewhere than intended.

Peter

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#290448 - 23/11/2006 11:36 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: peter]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
IMO that's a bit unfair to the passengers of the other planes. It's hard to remember now, but before that day the idea of using hijacked planes as missiles wasn't really in the mind of the public.


Point taken. I was trying to refer to the attitude of "give the bad guy what he wants". This has been the standard advice from "experts" in the US for years, for situations ranging from hijackings, to robberies, to kidnappings.

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#290449 - 23/11/2006 14:59 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: jbauer]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
After reading the recent posts. I feel the need to point out that most business have personnel policies that require employees not to force confrontations and just give up whatever is requested.

It's a fine balancing act to be sure. Value of the item stolen vs. potential harm to employees and customers vs. immediate or delayed (maybe never) apprehension.

The US has had times when immediate meting out of discipline has been the norm. In it's worst form it was called vigilantism.

Where we are now seems to be balanced between extremes.
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Glenn

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#290450 - 23/11/2006 22:22 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: Robotic]
webroach
old hand

Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Quote:
If you've lived in any sort of urban environment, you know to not get involved in other peoples disputes.

Moreover, you know not to initiate disputes... especially where they are not warranted.

How effective is the lesson of ranting at a litterbug?
It puts them on the defensive- difficult to teach them anything then.
Why not smile, say "Oh- that'll go right here", and pick it up without further communication and put it in the trash bin?


So your solution is to act snide and then be a happy, acquiescent little maid? Brilliant. Much better than directly confronting the problem.

Quote:
It's not my job to teach others how I want them to behave in my society. Even if it is, the best method is certainly not direct, abusive confrontation.


I think it's kinda telling that you assume "tirade" is abusive (though the dictionary does include "angry" in the definition). What's sad is that you think direct confrontation is not the way to deal with a problem. Should we just pussyfoot around the subject, then? Maybe we should sit down with armed robbers and have dialogue? Just let litterbugs and criminals have their way and then play happy nursemaid? Not for me, thanks.

Quote:
There's a chip and a shoulder around here somewhere...


No, I don't think that's quite accurate. That would imply that someone is looking for problems, daring someone to do something. Not the case here. In fact, the statement is right in line with the kind of behavior being lauded in this thread by the majority: subtle implication or inaction rather than direct, clear statements or actions. But again, it's the kind of argument I've come to expect from people looking for a way to justify their failure to act when action is called for. Just like hinting that someone who does choose to act must be Republican, or would do whatever their government tells them to, etc, etc....

Quote:
Couldn't Jon have whipped out a camera and gathered evidence for the police? What if we all had that idea pop into our heads instead of 'I'm gonna give that turd what he deserves!!'?


Actually, I'm not as much finding fault with Jon (who admits he was surprised he didn't do anything, as he felt he would in that situation) as I am with all the cheering his inaction has garnered.
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Dave

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#290451 - 24/11/2006 02:39 Re: Stop! Thief!! [Re: webroach]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
Just like hinting that someone who does choose to act must be Republican, or would do whatever their government tells them to, etc, etc....


I just want to again make it clear that I wasn't hinting at either. I made the statement about "doing whatever their govm't tells them" simply because it struck me as one example of following ideals to an extreme. Poorly worded perhaps.
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