#291309 - 10/12/2006 21:45
baking bread (no-knead technique)
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've never been much of a baker, but I read the New York Times' article on baking bread in a Dutch oven, and I had to try it ( basic recipe here; the original article now costs money to view, but you can see an addendum). This bread recipe has been something of a sensation, getting a busy Flickr group, and widespread discussion on many foodie blogs (Google searches for no-knead bread, Bittman bread, Lahey bread, and/or new york times bread seem to turn up a good number of hits). For my first attempt, last weekend, I concluded that our old aluminum Dutch oven wasn't really up to the task, so I bought a basic cast iron model ($50) and seasoned it by cooking some bacon (mmmm... bacon). I baked a wheat loaf (2x wheat flour to 1x AP white flour). I didn't get enough of a rise, probably because I used cold water from the tap, although the resulting bread was pretty much everything I could have ask for. Excellent, chewy, crusty stuff. Valuable lessons: (1) Take the pot completely out of the oven before inserting the dough, such that you only need to drop the dough into the pot. It's exceptionally difficult to throw a sticky dough. Mine landed half in and half out of the pot, requiring some quick maneuvering to get it all together without burning myself. (2) Use liberal amounts of flour to prevent adhesion between the dough and anything else. Just cover the dough ball in flour. Rather than using tea towels, I used wax paper. Much easier to clean up. (3) As discussed in the addendum, linked above, start your dough with "tepid" (i.e., slightly above room temperature) water, rather than straight cold from the tap. This time around, I decided to try a rye loaf (20% rye flour, 80% AP white flour, plus some caraway / sisal seeds), and I decided to do everything by weight rather than volume. I've been reading up on bread-baking as well, and they tend to refer to the percentage of water by comparing mass. So, I used 500g of flour and 400g of water, thus yielding an "80% water" bread. This is the same percentage as in the NYT recipe, but a 16% increase in volume. The results?  Beautiful loaf. Amazing crust, but a bit on the soggy side, inside. It seems that by increasing the volume of the loaf by some 16%, I should have made a similar correction in the cooking time, which I didn't do. Next time, I'll try elongating the baking time, or sticking with the original weights as per the recipe. Anyone else tried this? The results certainly impressed my parents, who were in town to see their granddaughter...
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#291310 - 11/12/2006 01:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Sounds cool. I'll have to try it. If I might make a suggestion, don't ever use wax paper again for anything. Ever. Parchment paper is 10000x better at everything. Yes, it's a bit more expensive, but so very worth it. I make a lot of pralines, especially for the holidays, and I used to use wax paper. Half the time the pralines would stick to the paper and the other times they would just never really harden.
If anyone is interested, I'll post the recipe. Good pecan pralines are tough to beat. They just take a little practice to master.
Oh, and parchment paper is just as non-stick as wax paper, without having wax all over whatever food you are preparing.
EDIT: After re-reading your post, you're just using wax paper to maneuver the dough, aren't you? If the wax paper never gets hot, it's just fine.
Edited by lectric (11/12/2006 01:42)
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#291311 - 11/12/2006 01:49
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Also, if you want to make a larger loaf, just make it a bit longer, not bigger. If the distance to the center of the loaf remains the same, so does the consistency of the bread inside. Longer cooking time = harder crust. I used to make a killer potato loaf bread, but I lost the recipe in a move, and have never been able to remember how to do it.
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#291312 - 11/12/2006 02:17
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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This particular recipe doesn't give you a whole lot of control over the shape of your bread because the dough has such a high water content. You pretty much just plop it in your pot and you get out some kind of a hemispherical boule.
I think the paper I used was actually parchment paper, but I'm not entirely sure since it's just a roll of the stuff in the drawer, without any label as to its origins.
Anyway, after more investigation, my next loaf will involve the use of a temperature probe. I've had great luck with probes when cooking meat, so there's no reason to expect it wouldn't work fine for bread. The "experts" are saying that bread is "done" when it reaches 200F. We'll see.
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#291313 - 11/12/2006 02:23
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Heck yeah we want the praline recipe.
_________________________
Matt
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#291314 - 11/12/2006 02:34
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
This particular recipe doesn't give you a whole lot of control over the shape of your bread because the dough has such a high water content.
Mmm.. that really sounds like too moist to me. Usually dough will hold it's shape, mostly. 
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#291315 - 11/12/2006 03:42
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: msaeger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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OK, New Orleans Pralines: Ingredients 3 cups sugar 1 1/2 cups packed light brown sugar 1 can PET milk pinch of salt 2 teaspoons vanilla extract 4 1/2 tablespoons of butter 2 to 4 cups of pecan pieces (I prefer 2, less nuts per praline) (Slowly) Boil the Sugar, Brown Sugar, Pet milk, and Salt until you reach the Soft Ball stage, stirring very often. (I'll explain later) Add the Butter, Vanilla, and Pecans. Remove from heat and beat until mixture starts to thicken. Now the tricky part. Drop them as fast as you can onto parchment paper. If you take too long, the pralines will thicken in the pot and won't spread properly. Not a real big deal, cause you can just eat those yourself. They taste perfect, they're just ugly lumps rather than looking like pralines are supposed to look. OK, soft ball stage means that if you drop the mixture into a glass of water, the praline will for a soft, but solid ball. If it spreads when it hits the bottom of the glass, keep going. If you cook them too long, the'll start to make the pralines harder, like a brittle. Getting the temperature right is the toughest part of any candy making. It may take a few tries to get it right. If your pralines never get hard, you didn't boil them long enough. Just scrape that off and put it in a jar. Tastes great over ice cream. For a good explanation of candy temperature stages, see HereOh, and the reason I say boil slowly is mainly in the beginning. It's easy to have the heat turned too high causing the sugar and milk to boil over. VEEERY messy. By slowly raising the temp, you can avoid this problem.
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#291316 - 11/12/2006 04:54
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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I saw this recipe when it was first in the Times, and tried it a couple of weeks ago. I was very impressed.
I'm a bread machine guy, and bake about 3-4 loaves a week in the bread machine. This recipe isn't quite as easy as the bread machine, but the results are 1000 times more impressive. If I was to give away one of my bread machine loaves, the reaction I would get would be, "hey, great, fresh bread!" If I gave one of these loaves away, the reaction would be, "You made this? No, seriously, you made this? Really? By yourself? Really? No, come on, where'd you get it? You're saying you made this bread? Yourself? In your house? Yeah, but like, where'd you buy it? No, really..."
I ate 3/4 of the loaf myself within a half hour of it coming out the oven, and the remaining fourth the next morning. It tastes great; the crust is more crispy than I thought possible, but without being thick or hard to chew, and the inside is really moist and chewy. It's the kind of bread that if it was served to me in a restaurant, I would actually comment to my dinner companions about how great the bread is. No added fat or sugar in it either (which makes me feel better about the 2 tablespoons of butter I put on each slice.
It's easier than regular bread, but nowhere near as easy as the bread machine. Now that I've done it once, though, it would only be half as hard for me now. I now know to use more flour when working with the dough, and to not put the dough directly on the counter, no matter how much flour I put on it first. I'd definitely use the wax paper or something next time. Also, I don't have a dutch oven or anything like that. I just have a 4 quart pyrex dish. When I put the dough in it, it takes up half the dish, but it cooked up just fine.
_________________________
-Aaron
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#291318 - 11/12/2006 09:03
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Ia Dutch oven
Hmm, that really must be something other than what I know it to be:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, pulls the duvet cover or bed sheets over the head of their loved one, trapping them in a confusion of methane, while shouting triumphantly, 'Dutch oven! Dutch oven!' The person trapped will wriggle like an eel, the trapper will then nearly die laughing and it will all end up in a really boisterous play fight. Of course, this is all in questionable taste.
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Rio Karma - now on ebay...
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#291319 - 11/12/2006 10:00
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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Quote:
Quote:
Ia Dutch oven
Hmm, that really must be something other than what I know it to be:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, pulls the duvet cover or bed sheets over the head of their loved one, trapping them in a confusion of methane, while shouting triumphantly, 'Dutch oven! Dutch oven!' The person trapped will wriggle like an eel, the trapper will then nearly die laughing and it will all end up in a really boisterous play fight. Of course, this is all in questionable taste.
Yep, that's what I understood a Dutch Oven to be too, but I didn't like to say... 
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
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Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#291320 - 11/12/2006 11:57
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
a huge fart
<lard>No knead! No knead!</lard>
Peter
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#291321 - 11/12/2006 12:58
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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member
Registered: 31/12/2001
Posts: 121
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Quote:
LAST month I wrote about Jim Lahey, the owner of Sullivan Street Bakery on West 47th Street in Manhattan, and his clever way to produce a European-style boule at home. Mr. Lahey’s recipe calls for very little yeast, a wet dough, long rising times and baking in a closed, preheated pot. My results with Mr. Lahey’s method have been beyond satisfying.
Isn't Jim Lahey a trailer park supervisor?
-sorry I couldn't resist
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#291322 - 11/12/2006 13:43
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Bring back Mark and Lard in the morning - I miss 'em. You have just awakened a warm bit of reminiscence deep inside.
Ahhhh - the good old days!
_________________________
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#291324 - 11/12/2006 16:19
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Do you guys have any other good dutch oven recipes? Involving meat perhaps, not bread (feel free to start a different thread). That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
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#291325 - 11/12/2006 17:05
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
the one in the photo above is a great unit and (imho) an inexpensive tool every kitchen should have.
it's been pointed out to me that the glass lid is not as versatile as the metal type, and if the inside of the lid as little 'dimples' all the better.
this thread has inspired me to try this out and perhaps I'll overcome my fear of baking breads.
/food threads rock.
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#291326 - 11/12/2006 17:19
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 351
Loc: chicago
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Bruno, check out Molly Stevens' All About Braising. Here in the states, I'd recommend ecookbooks.com over Amazon, but their shipping prices to the Great White North are a little high. --Dan.
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#291327 - 11/12/2006 17:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I'll pick something up in the next couple of weeks. I think I saw some really good prices on La Creuset stuff around here but I may look harder for a Staub because I'm an elitist (so "they" say) - and it would look good on the pot rack.
I think my family is really going to enjoy some fart flavoured bread this Christmas.
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#291328 - 11/12/2006 17:44
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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while I LOVE the Le Creuset stuff, and have lots of it, someone noted that the lid knobs are only rated up to 400f, so they should be removed before you try this (450f). not to mention that size for size, they'll cost you more by a factor of ~6 times that over the Lodge brand. top of my wish list. $370.00 usd.
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#291329 - 11/12/2006 19:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Do you guys have any other good dutch oven recipes? Involving meat perhaps, not bread (feel free to start a different thread). That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
I'd say you could find recipes just about anywhere -- if not specifically for a dutch oven, then crock-pot recipes would work just as well. That's basically all a dutch oven is -- old-skool crock-pot. I like to cook roasts in them. Slap a roast in the pot, surround with quartered potatoes, and chopped celery, carrots, and onions. Fill pot with water (mix in some red wine, if you like) to cover the roast. Season to taste. Put it in the oven 'til done.
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#291330 - 11/12/2006 19:33
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I'd say you could find recipes just about anywhere -- if not specifically for a dutch oven, then crock-pot recipes would work just as well. That's basically all a dutch oven is -- old-skool crock-pot. I like to cook roasts in them. Slap a roast in the pot, surround with quartered potatoes, and chopped celery, carrots, and onions. Fill pot with water (mix in some red wine, if you like) to cover the roast. Season to taste. Put it in the oven 'til done.
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob. This is useful for meat-based dishes, as you can brown the meat first by frying it, then fill the pot up and casserole in it, and all the Maillard reaction products that give browned meat its taste stay put and contribute to the final flavour. My favourite things to make in a cast-iron casserole are chicken (or, canonically, pheasant) à la normande, and lamb tagine.
Peter
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#291331 - 11/12/2006 20:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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FWIW, Crock-Pot is a proprietary eponym/genericized trademark. Slow cooker would be the non-infringing equivalent in the US, too. Though many sold under that name are more accurately electric dutch ovens.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#291332 - 11/12/2006 20:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Keep in mind that there are several styles of Dutch ovens. The first big decision is whether you want something for use in the kitchen, versus something meant to be placed in the middle of a campfire. The campfire models have legs built in, as well as a flat lid that's meant to hold coals in place. The next decision is material. We've got a smaller, aluminum model as well as my newer, larger cast iron model. Likewise, there are the swank enameled models. If you can handle the sheer weight of the thing, then cast iron is the way to go. It takes a little longer to heat up, but then you get nice, uniform heating. I don't really see the point of enamel (and the much larger price-tags), unless you're doing something delicate (a souflee?) where the iron might have some chemical effect on the food you're making.
After that, the sky's the limit on what sorts of meat things you can make. Really, any sort of stew or soup would be at home, as would long-cooking items like beans. If you want to do some deep frying, then all you need is to buy a fitting wire basket or a spider or whatever else. Needless to say, you've got lots of options.
Incidentally, one of the nice properties of seasoned cast iron that you don't get with the enameled versions: if food sticks, you can blast the hell out of the pot. I use a grill scraper / wire brush. Others just stick the pot into the oven and put it on the "clean" cycle. No need to stress out over a fine enamel finish.
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#291333 - 11/12/2006 20:57
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Thanks for the notes guys. I wouldn't consider anything but cast iron, either like in the above photo or with enamel coating. I love enamel, always have. Brings back childhood memories. So I'm partial to those.  I cook pork loins in the overn in a large pyrex dish every now and then with potatoes, onions, garlic and my own top-secret seasoning and rub selection. I'd be really interested to try that in the dutch/french oven. I've got some tending to do over a large pot of chili on the stove right now... have to run.
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#291334 - 12/12/2006 07:26
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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Quote:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, ...
I had always known this as a "covered wagon". Has anyone else heard this term, or did I make it up myself? Is this the Western US variation?
_________________________
-Aaron
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#291335 - 12/12/2006 10:36
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Geoff]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Yep, that's what I understood a Dutch Oven to be too, but I didn't like to say...
LMAO. I was wondering why that term seemed familiar to me but it didn't quite twig.
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#291337 - 12/12/2006 12:14
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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We used to call that Turtle Wars.
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#291338 - 12/12/2006 13:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: adavidw]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
Quote:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, ...
I had always known this as a "covered wagon". Has anyone else heard this term, or did I make it up myself? Is this the Western US variation?
I always thought a 'covered wagon' was an extreme wedgie- where the shorts get pulled all the way up and over the victim's head. At least, that's what I remember from grade school... seemed impossible to me. No personal experience with wedgies.
'Dutch Oven' meant being trapped under the covers for as long as I can remember.
/from California
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#291339 - 12/12/2006 13:53
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I thought that was an atomic wedgie.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#291340 - 12/12/2006 14:10
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Yeah, thats an Atomic Wedgie. It works well in cartoons, but if you try it in real life it turns out a bit like this. Yup, he's holding on to that guys elastic, and that grey material around his waist is/was his underwear. Students eh.
Edited by sein (12/12/2006 14:13)
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#291341 - 12/12/2006 14:18
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Bread baking -> Dutch ovens (pots) -> Dutch ovens (methane entrapment) -> atomic wedgies (genital entrapment) -> ??? -> profit!
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#291342 - 12/12/2006 15:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: sein]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Hmm - in the icy wastes of northern Scotland none of those terms were in common parlance. Our name for a wedgie was a Ganjj, and of the folks I have asked, no-one has admitted to knowing anything about a dutch oven...
Too sheltered as kids, ya think?
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#291343 - 12/12/2006 15:51
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: frog51]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Reverse Wedgie = Melvin
The Melvin was the feared form of retribution on my grade school grounds.
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#291344 - 13/12/2006 16:56
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless.
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#291346 - 13/12/2006 18:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Robotic]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless.
How naive! You're supposed to build the fire out in the parking lot!
Sheesh!
um, hello? what the heck do you use your bath tub for?
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#291347 - 14/12/2006 23:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lastdan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob.
You can also put the cast-iron casserole in a firepit, and cover it with charcoal. Sadly, apartment landlords tend to frown on firepits in the kitchen, so I can't do this regardless.
How naive! You're supposed to build the fire out in the parking lot!
Sheesh!
um, hello? what the heck do you use your bath tub for?
Growing wood for kindling. Duh!
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#291348 - 17/12/2006 16:27
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Behold, loaf #3:  This was a half-wheat, half-white loaf. It was awfully warm in Houston yesterday (80 degrees farenheit or more; where else in the U.S. are you running the A/C in the middle of "winter"?). This caused the dough to rise much faster than normal. It was ready to go in 12 hours instead of the usual 18 hours. I ended up tossing the dough in the fridge for the night and baking it in the morning. Hellbent on getting the internal temperature right, I had the misfortune of discovering that my damn temperature probe has gone belly-up (that's the second one that's died on me in three years), so I just ran for a full hour in the oven (versus 50 minutes last time). The crust came out a bit dark, but the inside was exactly what I wanted. (Note to self: try lower temperature and longer baking time on the next loaf.)
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#291349 - 18/12/2006 12:42
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Check to make sure you don't just need a new probe.
Also, the high in Raleigh today is supposed to be 75, and we're over 6 degrees further north than you are.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#291350 - 18/12/2006 12:46
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
It was awfully warm in Houston yesterday (80 degrees farenheit or more; where else in the U.S. are you running the A/C in the middle of "winter"?).
I don't know, but it was nearing 70 yesterday in DC. We had to open the windows last night because it was too warm inside, except that it wasn't very cold outside. I'm happy it's supposed to actually get colder for the holiday.
_________________________
Matt
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#291351 - 28/12/2006 16:14
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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my first try at it. much easier than I thought. I too found it a little 'moist' inside, not soggy or underdone, just oddly slick inside. a friend insisted that there was a mistake and that it MUST have meant to use 1/4 oz(7 g) rather than 1/4 tsp (1 g) of yeast, so we tried both at the same time. she was shocked to see that both turned out to rise at the same rate, and that the 1g-yeast bread was actually better. 
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#291352 - 29/12/2006 14:46
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lastdan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
the 1g-yeast bread was actually better
I've since gotten a hardcore bread-making book for Christmas and have been reading up on the chemistry behind bread. Apparently, if you've got extra yeast, then you'll eventually reach a situation when the yeast run out of sugars to digest, so they start turning on each other (yeast cannibalism!), and give off ammonia as a result. The book recommends using the minimum amount of yeast, whenever possible, for exactly this reason. This is also part of why other breads have you punching down the dough after the initial rise. It gets rid of the accumulated gas, but it also equalizes temperature in the dough and gets the yeast back in touch with more sugars to digest.
Also, I didn't realize that yeast doesn't actually contribute to the flavor of the bread. The flavor comes entirely from the enzymes breaking down the starches into simpler sugars. Part of what makes the no-knead bread work so well is that the long, slow rise also gives more chance for the enzymes (already in the flour) to crunch away at the starches.
With regard to the moistness, I had that issue with loaf #2. For loaf #3, I tried increasing the baking time after the lid came off, which worked, but ended up deeply toasting the crust. For loaf #4, I changed the baking temperatures to 480 degrees for the initial 30 minutes, and then down to 400 for a subsequent 45 minutes. That pretty much nailed it.
Note: you have to resist temptation and let the loaf cool for at least 30 minutes. This gives the crumb time to set up and also helps drop the moisture level.
Loaf #4:
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#291353 - 03/01/2007 00:36
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
the 1g-yeast bread was actually better
I've since gotten a hardcore bread-making book for Christmas
An excellent book! I won a copy of it in a charity bingo last year.
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#291354 - 20/01/2007 14:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Ok, I just bought the ingredients and will give this a shot tomorrow - will mix the dough this afternoon.
I just came back from the supermarket where I picked up a bag of white bread flour and a bag of multi grain. Even picked up some corn meal to dust the crust.
Last week I picked up a cast iron enameled French/Dutch oven for CAD$50 - a lot cheaper than Staub and La Creuset, so let's hope it lasts as long.
I've read the recipe, the article (which doesn't appear to cost anything to read), the followup and have also watched the video. I noticed the recipe in the NYT is bit different than what Lahey described. I'm thinking of setting the dough for its last hours on a tea towel as shown in the video. I don't have any parchment paper and I really hate using cling wrap.
The only thing that I wanted to try, but that I won't be the first time around, is to put slices of Portuguese choriço sausage into the dough before baking. I'm sure once I have the initial loaf-making down the sausage will kick it up to a whole new level.
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#291355 - 21/01/2007 06:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've been making this bread for a while now, and I've just ordered myself some rye flour and high-gluten white flour, in addition to the wheat and regular, unbleached flour I'm now keeping around. My next adventure(s) will be doing proper rye and soughdough breads, both of which require the care and feeding of wild-yeast starters. That will be fun.
I wouldn't worry too much about variance between the different NYT recipes. I initially was particular to do everything by weight, but now I'm just doing it by feel, adding ever just so much water to get the dough to the consistency that I want (goopy/sticky, but just firm enough that it hangs together as a dough). I've been consistent in using ~3 cups of dry flour, 2+epsilon cups of water, .25 tsp instant yeast, and 1.5 tsp salt (slightly more than the standard recipe, but seems to taste better to me).
I haven't tried the tea towel. That just seems like a huge mess. I'd spend the bucks, buy a roll of parchment paper, and call yourself happy.
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#291356 - 22/01/2007 16:17
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Attached are images of the first loaf (I made 3 yesterday) and the Dutch Oven. Using the tea towel (cotton not terry) to place the dough ball after folding worked our very well. A light dusting with some flour and corn meal and there was no sticking after 2-3 hours sitting. It was very easy to just turn it over and dump the ball into the pot for baking. I ended up making 2 white (using bread flour) and 1 multi grain (which was a 50/50 mix of the white flour and multigrain bread flour). The dough sat rising for 20 hours or so and then 2-3 hours after folding (first loaf about 2 last loaf about 3 because I could only bake one at a time). My oven's temperature must be off because my baking times didn't line up with the recipe nor what's been suggested in here. The bread was great, in and out, but there's no way I could have baked for over 20 minute with the cover off the dutch oven. One load spent only 15 minutes like this at 400 after having baked 30 minutes with lid closed at 480. The first load baked 30 minutes closed at 450 and then 15 minutes open at 450 (this was already pushing it, any longer and the crust would have been way too hard).  
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#291357 - 22/01/2007 16:18
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Image of pot/Dutch/French Oven.
Attachments
293429-DutchOvenSmall.jpg (142 downloads)
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#291358 - 22/01/2007 16:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've started doing two different temperatures for exactly the reasons you cite. I do the initial part (lid on the pot) at 475F and the subsequent part (lid of) at 400F. This seems to reduce the over-browning of the crust, while still letting the heat get all the way through to the center. I'm now doing 30 minutes lid-on and 30-minutes lid-off. Last time, I ended up with an internal temperature of 196 degrees (yeah, shiny new temperature probe), when I pulled it out. Works for me. I recently ordered some high-gluten white flour and some medium rye flour (from King Arthur Flour), since you can't find that stuff in the supermarket. Once it arrives, I'm going to have a go at doing a German rye bread and a sourdough bread, both of which require non-trivial advance work (i.e., wild-yeast fermentation). My cookbook says that it's going to smell really bad in the beginning but that the smell will come around by the time the starter is ready to bake. We'll see...
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#291359 - 22/01/2007 17:54
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I'm going to have a go at doing a German rye bread and a sourdough bread, both of which require non-trivial advance work (i.e., wild-yeast fermentation). My cookbook says that it's going to smell really bad in the beginning but that the smell will come around by the time the starter is ready to bake. We'll see...
Good sourdough starter should *not* smell bad. Tangy and slightly alcoholic, perhaps, but not foul.
The Sourdough Cookery by Rita Davenport has been the definitive book on the stuff since 1977.
Cheers!
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#291360 - 22/01/2007 21:04
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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My book was talking about making a starter from scratch. The first five days are all about having a flour/water mixture that ferments on its own at room temperature. Every day, you throw half of it out and add in more flour/water. The book claims that it starts off funky but gets normal quickly. I'll find out in a few days.
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#291361 - 22/01/2007 21:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, a flour and water mixture is a great breeding ground for all sorts of nasties. Fortunately, the waste product of lactobacillus is lactic acid, which lowers the pH of the starter to levels inhospitable to other nasties. But it takes a while for the pH to rise up, so other things will grow in there for a while. Although I'd be concerned if it was really nasty, since much of the badness of nasty bacteria is not the infection potential, but the toxic waste products, which won't "die off" as the acidity of the starter increases.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#291362 - 25/01/2007 16:24
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I'm in the process of baking the first of two new loaves right now. The one in the oven is a potato-garlic-peppercorn loaf made with 75% white and 25% (more or less) multi-grain flour.
I took some small left-over baked potatos (that had been baked this past Sunday covered in olive oil and garlic) and pan seared them with a little bit of olive oil to heat them up and soften them up again (they had been in the fridge). I mashed them (skin-on) and mixed them with the dry ingredients, adding a bit of crushed peppercorns and cumin.
The other loaf is 66.6% white and 33.3% multi-grain mixed with one chopped clove of garlic that was first fried up in a skillet with a chopped dried hot chili pepper. Even the dough for this one smells amazing - I can only imagine how it will smell when I put it in the oven in an hour.
I let them rise for about 20 hours - the first one grew quite a bit bigger than the second. After squishing and folding them, dusting and letting them rise again for 3 hours, the first loaf grew more/faster again. I'd say a good 20-30% bigger than the second.
I don't know much about bread chemistry other than what I've casually picked up here and there, so this is mostly just winging it.
Any tips from anyone on how to make the inside a little denser? I'd like to be able to make something with smaller and/or less air pockets.
I'm deliberating experimenting with the times of this first loaf... Maybe going longer than 30 minutes with lid closed. Even if I don't, I'm pretty sure with lid open I still won't be able to go beyond 15 to 20 minutes at 400F.
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#291363 - 25/01/2007 17:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't remember the recipe and I'm too lazy to go back and look, but there are a number of things that will make the crumb tighter. Creating seed bubbles would help, but there's not really any method I can think of you can do too well with a bread -- that's more of a cake technique, where the idea is creaming the butter with the sugar really well. Another method would be kneading the dough, but that seems to be against the spirit of the recipe. More acid in the batter should do it, as it will set the proteins faster.
So maybe add a little bit of vinegar or apple juice to the batter? Probably instead of some of the water. Ooh, or buttermilk. That'd probably work really well. The yogurt suggested below makes sense, too.
Edited by wfaulk (25/01/2007 17:14)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#291364 - 25/01/2007 17:13
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
Any tips from anyone on how to make the inside a little denser? I'd like to be able to make something with smaller and/or less air pockets.
one thing that really made a difference for me was adding a little over a table spoon of good 'real' yogurt. you may loose a bit crisp from the crust on the flip side, but the interior really is nice.
assuring the inside hits no less than 185f (up to 205?) when it comes out and then the biggie is not to cut it until the inside falls below ~120f keeps it from seeming gummy or too moist.
I'm still learning so this should not be taken as fact or expert advice.
because of this thread, I am now smitten with bread and the production of it.
fun over the last month
Edited by lastdan (25/01/2007 17:53)
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