#291309 - 10/12/2006 21:45
baking bread (no-knead technique)
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've never been much of a baker, but I read the New York Times' article on baking bread in a Dutch oven, and I had to try it ( basic recipe here; the original article now costs money to view, but you can see an addendum). This bread recipe has been something of a sensation, getting a busy Flickr group, and widespread discussion on many foodie blogs (Google searches for no-knead bread, Bittman bread, Lahey bread, and/or new york times bread seem to turn up a good number of hits). For my first attempt, last weekend, I concluded that our old aluminum Dutch oven wasn't really up to the task, so I bought a basic cast iron model ($50) and seasoned it by cooking some bacon (mmmm... bacon). I baked a wheat loaf (2x wheat flour to 1x AP white flour). I didn't get enough of a rise, probably because I used cold water from the tap, although the resulting bread was pretty much everything I could have ask for. Excellent, chewy, crusty stuff. Valuable lessons: (1) Take the pot completely out of the oven before inserting the dough, such that you only need to drop the dough into the pot. It's exceptionally difficult to throw a sticky dough. Mine landed half in and half out of the pot, requiring some quick maneuvering to get it all together without burning myself. (2) Use liberal amounts of flour to prevent adhesion between the dough and anything else. Just cover the dough ball in flour. Rather than using tea towels, I used wax paper. Much easier to clean up. (3) As discussed in the addendum, linked above, start your dough with "tepid" (i.e., slightly above room temperature) water, rather than straight cold from the tap. This time around, I decided to try a rye loaf (20% rye flour, 80% AP white flour, plus some caraway / sisal seeds), and I decided to do everything by weight rather than volume. I've been reading up on bread-baking as well, and they tend to refer to the percentage of water by comparing mass. So, I used 500g of flour and 400g of water, thus yielding an "80% water" bread. This is the same percentage as in the NYT recipe, but a 16% increase in volume. The results?  Beautiful loaf. Amazing crust, but a bit on the soggy side, inside. It seems that by increasing the volume of the loaf by some 16%, I should have made a similar correction in the cooking time, which I didn't do. Next time, I'll try elongating the baking time, or sticking with the original weights as per the recipe. Anyone else tried this? The results certainly impressed my parents, who were in town to see their granddaughter...
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#291310 - 11/12/2006 01:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Sounds cool. I'll have to try it. If I might make a suggestion, don't ever use wax paper again for anything. Ever. Parchment paper is 10000x better at everything. Yes, it's a bit more expensive, but so very worth it. I make a lot of pralines, especially for the holidays, and I used to use wax paper. Half the time the pralines would stick to the paper and the other times they would just never really harden.
If anyone is interested, I'll post the recipe. Good pecan pralines are tough to beat. They just take a little practice to master.
Oh, and parchment paper is just as non-stick as wax paper, without having wax all over whatever food you are preparing.
EDIT: After re-reading your post, you're just using wax paper to maneuver the dough, aren't you? If the wax paper never gets hot, it's just fine.
Edited by lectric (11/12/2006 01:42)
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#291311 - 11/12/2006 01:49
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Also, if you want to make a larger loaf, just make it a bit longer, not bigger. If the distance to the center of the loaf remains the same, so does the consistency of the bread inside. Longer cooking time = harder crust. I used to make a killer potato loaf bread, but I lost the recipe in a move, and have never been able to remember how to do it.
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#291312 - 11/12/2006 02:17
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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This particular recipe doesn't give you a whole lot of control over the shape of your bread because the dough has such a high water content. You pretty much just plop it in your pot and you get out some kind of a hemispherical boule.
I think the paper I used was actually parchment paper, but I'm not entirely sure since it's just a roll of the stuff in the drawer, without any label as to its origins.
Anyway, after more investigation, my next loaf will involve the use of a temperature probe. I've had great luck with probes when cooking meat, so there's no reason to expect it wouldn't work fine for bread. The "experts" are saying that bread is "done" when it reaches 200F. We'll see.
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#291313 - 11/12/2006 02:23
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Heck yeah we want the praline recipe.
_________________________
Matt
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#291314 - 11/12/2006 02:34
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
This particular recipe doesn't give you a whole lot of control over the shape of your bread because the dough has such a high water content.
Mmm.. that really sounds like too moist to me. Usually dough will hold it's shape, mostly. 
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#291315 - 11/12/2006 03:42
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: msaeger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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OK, New Orleans Pralines: Ingredients 3 cups sugar 1 1/2 cups packed light brown sugar 1 can PET milk pinch of salt 2 teaspoons vanilla extract 4 1/2 tablespoons of butter 2 to 4 cups of pecan pieces (I prefer 2, less nuts per praline) (Slowly) Boil the Sugar, Brown Sugar, Pet milk, and Salt until you reach the Soft Ball stage, stirring very often. (I'll explain later) Add the Butter, Vanilla, and Pecans. Remove from heat and beat until mixture starts to thicken. Now the tricky part. Drop them as fast as you can onto parchment paper. If you take too long, the pralines will thicken in the pot and won't spread properly. Not a real big deal, cause you can just eat those yourself. They taste perfect, they're just ugly lumps rather than looking like pralines are supposed to look. OK, soft ball stage means that if you drop the mixture into a glass of water, the praline will for a soft, but solid ball. If it spreads when it hits the bottom of the glass, keep going. If you cook them too long, the'll start to make the pralines harder, like a brittle. Getting the temperature right is the toughest part of any candy making. It may take a few tries to get it right. If your pralines never get hard, you didn't boil them long enough. Just scrape that off and put it in a jar. Tastes great over ice cream. For a good explanation of candy temperature stages, see HereOh, and the reason I say boil slowly is mainly in the beginning. It's easy to have the heat turned too high causing the sugar and milk to boil over. VEEERY messy. By slowly raising the temp, you can avoid this problem.
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#291316 - 11/12/2006 04:54
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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I saw this recipe when it was first in the Times, and tried it a couple of weeks ago. I was very impressed.
I'm a bread machine guy, and bake about 3-4 loaves a week in the bread machine. This recipe isn't quite as easy as the bread machine, but the results are 1000 times more impressive. If I was to give away one of my bread machine loaves, the reaction I would get would be, "hey, great, fresh bread!" If I gave one of these loaves away, the reaction would be, "You made this? No, seriously, you made this? Really? By yourself? Really? No, come on, where'd you get it? You're saying you made this bread? Yourself? In your house? Yeah, but like, where'd you buy it? No, really..."
I ate 3/4 of the loaf myself within a half hour of it coming out the oven, and the remaining fourth the next morning. It tastes great; the crust is more crispy than I thought possible, but without being thick or hard to chew, and the inside is really moist and chewy. It's the kind of bread that if it was served to me in a restaurant, I would actually comment to my dinner companions about how great the bread is. No added fat or sugar in it either (which makes me feel better about the 2 tablespoons of butter I put on each slice.
It's easier than regular bread, but nowhere near as easy as the bread machine. Now that I've done it once, though, it would only be half as hard for me now. I now know to use more flour when working with the dough, and to not put the dough directly on the counter, no matter how much flour I put on it first. I'd definitely use the wax paper or something next time. Also, I don't have a dutch oven or anything like that. I just have a 4 quart pyrex dish. When I put the dough in it, it takes up half the dish, but it cooked up just fine.
_________________________
-Aaron
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#291318 - 11/12/2006 09:03
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Ia Dutch oven
Hmm, that really must be something other than what I know it to be:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, pulls the duvet cover or bed sheets over the head of their loved one, trapping them in a confusion of methane, while shouting triumphantly, 'Dutch oven! Dutch oven!' The person trapped will wriggle like an eel, the trapper will then nearly die laughing and it will all end up in a really boisterous play fight. Of course, this is all in questionable taste.
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Rio Karma - now on ebay...
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#291319 - 11/12/2006 10:00
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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Quote:
Quote:
Ia Dutch oven
Hmm, that really must be something other than what I know it to be:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, pulls the duvet cover or bed sheets over the head of their loved one, trapping them in a confusion of methane, while shouting triumphantly, 'Dutch oven! Dutch oven!' The person trapped will wriggle like an eel, the trapper will then nearly die laughing and it will all end up in a really boisterous play fight. Of course, this is all in questionable taste.
Yep, that's what I understood a Dutch Oven to be too, but I didn't like to say... 
_________________________
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---- -------
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#291320 - 11/12/2006 11:57
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
a huge fart
<lard>No knead! No knead!</lard>
Peter
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#291321 - 11/12/2006 12:58
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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member
Registered: 31/12/2001
Posts: 121
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Quote:
LAST month I wrote about Jim Lahey, the owner of Sullivan Street Bakery on West 47th Street in Manhattan, and his clever way to produce a European-style boule at home. Mr. Lahey’s recipe calls for very little yeast, a wet dough, long rising times and baking in a closed, preheated pot. My results with Mr. Lahey’s method have been beyond satisfying.
Isn't Jim Lahey a trailer park supervisor?
-sorry I couldn't resist
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#291322 - 11/12/2006 13:43
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Bring back Mark and Lard in the morning - I miss 'em. You have just awakened a warm bit of reminiscence deep inside.
Ahhhh - the good old days!
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#291324 - 11/12/2006 16:19
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Do you guys have any other good dutch oven recipes? Involving meat perhaps, not bread (feel free to start a different thread). That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
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#291325 - 11/12/2006 17:05
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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Quote:
That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
the one in the photo above is a great unit and (imho) an inexpensive tool every kitchen should have.
it's been pointed out to me that the glass lid is not as versatile as the metal type, and if the inside of the lid as little 'dimples' all the better.
this thread has inspired me to try this out and perhaps I'll overcome my fear of baking breads.
/food threads rock.
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#291326 - 11/12/2006 17:19
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 351
Loc: chicago
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Bruno, check out Molly Stevens' All About Braising. Here in the states, I'd recommend ecookbooks.com over Amazon, but their shipping prices to the Great White North are a little high. --Dan.
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#291327 - 11/12/2006 17:31
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: djc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I'll pick something up in the next couple of weeks. I think I saw some really good prices on La Creuset stuff around here but I may look harder for a Staub because I'm an elitist (so "they" say) - and it would look good on the pot rack.
I think my family is really going to enjoy some fart flavoured bread this Christmas.
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#291328 - 11/12/2006 17:44
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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while I LOVE the Le Creuset stuff, and have lots of it, someone noted that the lid knobs are only rated up to 400f, so they should be removed before you try this (450f). not to mention that size for size, they'll cost you more by a factor of ~6 times that over the Lodge brand. top of my wish list. $370.00 usd.
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#291329 - 11/12/2006 19:12
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Do you guys have any other good dutch oven recipes? Involving meat perhaps, not bread (feel free to start a different thread). That would seal the deal for me and I'd pick up a dutch oven in a few weeks.
I'd say you could find recipes just about anywhere -- if not specifically for a dutch oven, then crock-pot recipes would work just as well. That's basically all a dutch oven is -- old-skool crock-pot. I like to cook roasts in them. Slap a roast in the pot, surround with quartered potatoes, and chopped celery, carrots, and onions. Fill pot with water (mix in some red wine, if you like) to cover the roast. Season to taste. Put it in the oven 'til done.
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#291330 - 11/12/2006 19:33
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
I'd say you could find recipes just about anywhere -- if not specifically for a dutch oven, then crock-pot recipes would work just as well. That's basically all a dutch oven is -- old-skool crock-pot. I like to cook roasts in them. Slap a roast in the pot, surround with quartered potatoes, and chopped celery, carrots, and onions. Fill pot with water (mix in some red wine, if you like) to cover the roast. Season to taste. Put it in the oven 'til done.
The main advantage that a dutch oven has over a crock-pot (or, in British English, that a cast-iron casserole has over a pottery one or a slow-cooker) is that you can put the dutch oven on the hob. This is useful for meat-based dishes, as you can brown the meat first by frying it, then fill the pot up and casserole in it, and all the Maillard reaction products that give browned meat its taste stay put and contribute to the final flavour. My favourite things to make in a cast-iron casserole are chicken (or, canonically, pheasant) à la normande, and lamb tagine.
Peter
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#291331 - 11/12/2006 20:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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FWIW, Crock-Pot is a proprietary eponym/genericized trademark. Slow cooker would be the non-infringing equivalent in the US, too. Though many sold under that name are more accurately electric dutch ovens.
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#291332 - 11/12/2006 20:40
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Keep in mind that there are several styles of Dutch ovens. The first big decision is whether you want something for use in the kitchen, versus something meant to be placed in the middle of a campfire. The campfire models have legs built in, as well as a flat lid that's meant to hold coals in place. The next decision is material. We've got a smaller, aluminum model as well as my newer, larger cast iron model. Likewise, there are the swank enameled models. If you can handle the sheer weight of the thing, then cast iron is the way to go. It takes a little longer to heat up, but then you get nice, uniform heating. I don't really see the point of enamel (and the much larger price-tags), unless you're doing something delicate (a souflee?) where the iron might have some chemical effect on the food you're making.
After that, the sky's the limit on what sorts of meat things you can make. Really, any sort of stew or soup would be at home, as would long-cooking items like beans. If you want to do some deep frying, then all you need is to buy a fitting wire basket or a spider or whatever else. Needless to say, you've got lots of options.
Incidentally, one of the nice properties of seasoned cast iron that you don't get with the enameled versions: if food sticks, you can blast the hell out of the pot. I use a grill scraper / wire brush. Others just stick the pot into the oven and put it on the "clean" cycle. No need to stress out over a fine enamel finish.
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#291333 - 11/12/2006 20:57
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Thanks for the notes guys. I wouldn't consider anything but cast iron, either like in the above photo or with enamel coating. I love enamel, always have. Brings back childhood memories. So I'm partial to those.  I cook pork loins in the overn in a large pyrex dish every now and then with potatoes, onions, garlic and my own top-secret seasoning and rub selection. I'd be really interested to try that in the dutch/french oven. I've got some tending to do over a large pot of chili on the stove right now... have to run.
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#291334 - 12/12/2006 07:26
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: furtive]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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Quote:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, ...
I had always known this as a "covered wagon". Has anyone else heard this term, or did I make it up myself? Is this the Western US variation?
_________________________
-Aaron
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#291335 - 12/12/2006 10:36
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: Geoff]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Yep, that's what I understood a Dutch Oven to be too, but I didn't like to say...
LMAO. I was wondering why that term seemed familiar to me but it didn't quite twig.
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#291337 - 12/12/2006 12:14
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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We used to call that Turtle Wars.
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#291338 - 12/12/2006 13:45
Re: baking bread (no-knead technique)
[Re: adavidw]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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Quote:
Quote:
A Dutch Oven is where one partner lets go a huge fart, ...
I had always known this as a "covered wagon". Has anyone else heard this term, or did I make it up myself? Is this the Western US variation?
I always thought a 'covered wagon' was an extreme wedgie- where the shorts get pulled all the way up and over the victim's head. At least, that's what I remember from grade school... seemed impossible to me. No personal experience with wedgies.
'Dutch Oven' meant being trapped under the covers for as long as I can remember.
/from California
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