#292169 - 11/01/2007 14:40
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: furtive]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
There is a load of stuff about the iPhone on Apples website already. Interestingly, it crashes my IE7...
That's because Jobs wants you to use Safari. Didn't he make that clear in his keynote?
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#292170 - 11/01/2007 14:50
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
People here are going to call me crazy and an Apple hater, but am I the only one that thinks, based on the market segment Apple will likely try to appeal to, that the primary competitor for the iPhone is....the Sidekick?
Apple is probably targeting style-tech guys who run around with both a Nano and RAZR or SLVR. Early adopters who will shell out the money for the style and combined functionality. The Sidekick is more suited for messaging, something that I don't think the iPhone looks like it will do as well as a keyboarded phone. I think the Treo is safe(ish) for now, since it doesn't look like the iPhone will have the same user-expandability capabilities that the Treo does. There are quite a few Palm or Windows apps that the Treo or other smartphones can run that will not be available on the iPhone. For some people these apps are things they cannot live without.
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#292171 - 11/01/2007 14:56
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Apple is probably targeting style-tech guys who run around with both a Nano and RAZR or SLVR.
That just doesn't seem like a big market to me. Besides, Jobs was clearly aiming this at the "phones with a keyboard" market. One of his slides showed how it was inconvenient to have a keyboard take up the bottom third of the device, and it had shots of a Treo and Blackberry and a couple others.
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Matt
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#292172 - 11/01/2007 14:59
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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You can't fit 40GB of music onto any Flash player. I can't fit my 100GB of music onto an 80GB iPod either. I think all iPods have some interface issues, but I still think they're the best. They suck less than everyone else (still) out there.
My definition of the "best" comes from a UI perspective. Assuming for a second any player you're going to compare can play the tracks. The iPod products have generally accepted decent quality sound output, management with iTunes is really second to none (I suppose that's also my opinion, but i've not heard of anything yet that rivals the combination).
I will concede that for it to be classified as a truly great phone we will need some tests beyond interface and features like visual voice mail. Call quality and signal strength along with battery life (real tests) will be very important. But right now it looks very good on paper and in live presentations.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that it's the best. I just think it's unfair to say it's not going to be good (or great) at anything because it includes the functions of many (possible) discrete products. Some of those discrete products in my opinion make no sense what-so-ever to exist in a discrete form. Like a discrete WiFi hand-held web browser (like Nokia 770 or N800). Same thing as having a discrete word processing machine (those did exist). Word processing on a PC is a lot better than any discrete device can ever be, if for no other reason than it's not discrete. You're able to leverage off everything else to enhance the word processing experience and functionality. Same with the iPhone.
The different functions will allow you to leverage off each other in ways that simple weren't possible or practical with so many other devices. Give this a couple of product cycles and I think it will really change our concept of the portable communications/media device.
The traditional PDA was killed by the "smart phone" - I think this new class of product can obsolete the traditional smart phone more handily.
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#292173 - 11/01/2007 15:16
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks the iPhone isn't really a competitor for the Treo and the Blackberry? I'd be very interested to hear how it's supposed to work in a business environment, which is where I imagine most of those devices live.
Why wouldn't it work in a business? I was using OS X native apps like Mail, Address Book, and iCal just as a person would use Outlook at HP with no issues. People would send me meeting requests, I'd respond, and our calendars would show them. And I never had to bug any of the IT guys to change the server. I think the only requirement was a version of Exchange from this century. I don't see why the iPhone would decide to remove the business support the bigger OS X apps already have.
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#292174 - 11/01/2007 15:45
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Asking for separate devices to do these things...
But that's where I think you're missing what these people are saying. They don't want the seperate devices or the combined device. They just want a phone. That's the reason that the satirical response doesn't apply to this situation.
I'm not missing what they're saying, I'm dismissing it. And I'm doing it because it's pointless. People are complaining because a product exists that isn't what they want. Boo hoo. Don't buy it. Buy the $10 phone that pretty much just makes phone calls. It's like people being happy with their Super NES but whining because the PS3 exists.
Guess what: there are phones without tons of features. Look on Ebay, they are legion. Buy one. Problem solved.
_________________________
Dave
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#292175 - 11/01/2007 16:05
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
but am I the only one that thinks, based on the market segment Apple will likely try to appeal to, that the primary competitor for the iPhone is....the Sidekick?
It certainly seems like a sidekick with much better UI, hardware and software. Integrated IM? Check. Email? Check. Web Browsing with a novel trick to make it useable? Check. Closed Platform? Check. Stuck with one lousy carrier? Check.
Yes, it's better than a sidekick, but it's definitely a similar product. The value of a smartphone or treo is that they're smart and can "learn" new tasks by installing new software.
I'll probably own one in a few revisions if the price comes down. However, it certainly has room for improvement, and it's all from the management side, not the hardware side.
Matthew
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#292176 - 11/01/2007 16:19
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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In a GPS I want it designed for car navigation and voice guidance. I don’t need an outdoor type GPS but others may like that better than car navigation. When you get a combined device you have to tune the device functions to the middle of the road so it can meet most people’s needs. For people that need more in one area they will probably opt out of a combination device.
I agree with you general argument that convergence tends to lead to compromised devices. I think you have picked the wrong example to illustrate your point though.
Arguably the best GPS in car navigation device is TomTom. As well as shipping their dedicated TomTom unit they also ship the software for PDAs and SmartPhones.
The software on the PDAs/SmartPhones works just as well as it does on the dedicated device. Because the dedicated device does not have hardware buttons (apart from the power switch), the interface is exactly the same whether you are using the dedicated device or running it on a PDA/SmartPhone*.
In some ways the non-dedicated version is even better as it integrates with the address book on the phone/PDA.
* though the version that they ship for non-touch screen SmartPhones is obviously a little different
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#292177 - 11/01/2007 16:23
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: JBjorgen]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Yeah...definitely no offense meant. Just trying to make a point with parody.
.
OK cool, but I’m still going to wait for the iNASCAR/Shuttle/sub/coffee maker
Come on we’ve had the technology for years…..
http://www.vttbots.com/fs1_berthing.html
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#292178 - 11/01/2007 16:36
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: andy]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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In some ways the non-dedicated version is even better as it integrates with the address book on the phone/PDA.
I do like that convergence.
OK I am pretty much a hypocrite. I have a GPS/PDA that plays music files and I do like it. However when I want to REALLY listen to music I’ll play my home stereo or the empeg. And if I REALLY needed to have voice navigation on a daily basis I would get a better GPS (one that reads off street names). So for me in the GPS/PDA/music area compromise is OK, most of the time.
I think it boils down to the fact I hate phones. I need more conversations that start out with “Hey you just won a…. “ rather than “Hey could you do x for me…”
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#292179 - 11/01/2007 19:11
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Redrum]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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I'll buy one when you can get TomTom for it, and if the camera proves to be good enough to take quick snapshots with. My brother has got one of those new Sony mobiles and I am quite impressed with the picture quality for something it's size. I think I would need more than 8Gb, 16 is a good number  But I won't be buying a Gen 1 version that's for sure! I think that would mean I pretty much only ever need one device with me for day to day use, I most functions on my XDA at the moment, but I must admit it's a total mare as a phone. I think what apple is doing is very brave, I hope the price point is right here in Europe and it will be available on all networks. iPod sales are not expanding as quickly (I don't think?) the market has to be nearing saturation, doesn't it? I just hope the software works, as I'm sure the hardware will be near perfect  Cheers Cris
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#292180 - 11/01/2007 20:36
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
iPod sales are not expanding as quickly (I don't think?) the market has to be nearing saturation, doesn't it?
Sales for the 4th quarter 2006 haven't been released, but the other quarters in 2006 were higher then the same time in 2005. Doesn't look to be slowing down yet.
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#292181 - 11/01/2007 21:45
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I got an ipod this xmas along with 5 other people in my office, considering there are only 20 people in it I'd say that's quite a hefty percentage... and we're all first time owners.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#292182 - 11/01/2007 21:53
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Redrum]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I'll wager it doesn't have GPS, but we'll know for certain in June when the first one gets taken to bits and photographed for all the world to see. Meanwhile, cellular networks have gotten much better at doing geolocation. One handset can measure the relative signal strengths of all the different cellular base stations and use that to look up its location in a database (I'm simplifying, but not by too much). The upside of this is clear: extra functionality without needing extra hardware. The downside is training. Somebody has to wander around and measure what signal strengths are visible at which locations. As such, it's unlikely to be an announced feature any time soon. As to this whole "just a phone" debate, it all boils down to who you are and what you do. I've got one of those awful Moto RAZRs, but I've got the calls I tend to make on speed dial (e.g., hold down the "4" key and it calls my home phone). That's fast and efficient. Will the iPhone come close? Probably not, but still worlds better than digging through the awful RAZR phone book. Likewise, it's clear that the Blackberry has gone through some insane amount of usability testing. Regular users can crank through their email fast. Did Apple focus just on eye candy or did they do serious usability work as well? We'll have to wait and see. Based on today's NYT article, it looks like there will be third-party apps, but it will be a closed world, where Apple has to bless your app. This is similar, I suppose, to what you can get for iPods these days. That tends to work against many of the custom things you'd want, like an ssh client, but I'll bet somebody, somewhere figures out a way around it. At the end of the day, it's just a computer, and computers are general-purpose beasts. Intriguing quote from that article: Quote:
The device is not currently compatible with the faster 3G wireless data networks that are driving sharp gains in cellular revenues in the United States, although several Apple insiders said the phone could be upgraded to 3G with software if Apple later decides to do so.
Somebody tearing the hardware apart may find hints of the 3G support, if it's actually there, since 3G runs on a different frequency (right?).
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#292183 - 11/01/2007 22:03
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Quote:
I'd say that's quite a hefty percentage... and we're all first time owners.
That's kind of my point, how much longer can that sort of growth go on for? Once you have an mp3 player how often do you replace it? And when you do replace it would you pay $600 (£600?) for it? Functions like the voicemail sound like they are dependant on the network supporting it, which could mean you would be tied to T-Mobile for example, not sure if that it a move I would be willing to make myself.
I can't wait to see what people like Nokia do about it! There has to be a reponse by the rest of the market to the iPod, and I mean the mp3 and mobile markets. I think everyone here has been waiting for a killer player with similar backing to the iPod, maybe this year will be the time? Or maybe this will be the end, if you have enough money you have to buy an apple?
I still don't think you can beat the Karma for music playback, I think it is a nice sideways step by apple away from the outdated and nasty iPod UI.
Cris.
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#292184 - 11/01/2007 22:34
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
I still don't think you can beat the Karma for music playback
Agreed, but having had the ipod for a couple of weeks now. I love the fact it 'just worked' with my Mac, it synced the subset of my music I wanted it to. All the podcasts I subscribe to transferred silently across. All whilst charging off its USB connection.
Quote:
I think it is a nice sideways step by apple away from the outdated and nasty iPod UI.
Now it's 'finally' got a search option it pretty much does everything I want. I loved my Karma, but the HD was just so damned unreliable. At least my cannibalised player (albeit with knackered keylock switch) will be finding a new home soon.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#292185 - 12/01/2007 02:52
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
One handset can measure the relative signal strengths of all the different cellular base stations and use that to ...
More useful is for the handset/base-station to measure the time it takes for signals to pass between the two, and translate that directly into distance values. Plus lots of fudging for multipath etc.. but that's how it's really done.
Cheers
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#292186 - 12/01/2007 04:05
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Multipath makes a mess of time-of-flight measurements, plus the low-level hardware doesn't necessarily export the information you want. Researchers working on location with GSM ( short example paper) have been using signal strength instead.
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#292187 - 12/01/2007 13:23
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Multipath makes a mess of time-of-flight measurements,
Ditto (in spades) for RSSI (aka. "signal strength").
Quote:
plus the low-level hardware doesn't necessarily export the information you want.
It pretty much *has to* for the system to work correctly in other ways.
Quote:
Researchers working on location with GSM (short example paper) have been using signal strength instead.
That's nice. But those of us who have actually *implemented* working systems just might have done things differently.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (12/01/2007 13:25)
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#292188 - 12/01/2007 13:25
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: DWallach]
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addict
Registered: 11/11/2001
Posts: 552
Loc: Houston, TX
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I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me. http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/12/0430200.shtml
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--Ben
78GB MkIIa, Dead tuner.
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#292189 - 12/01/2007 14:35
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: BAKup]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me.
Yup, I just read that on Arstechnica as well which all stemed from the New York Times article DWallach linked to a few posts above.
Sucks really. Apple signed applications means no weird and wonderful oddball freeware or otherwise useful/fun/niche apps such as Palantir. I can understand their reasoning, but there has to be a better way. My phone hardly ever crashes and I have loads of junk on there!
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#292190 - 12/01/2007 15:01
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: BAKup]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I just read on Slashdot that you won't be able to load 3rd party apps on the iPhone. That just killed any desire for that phone for me.
I thought that Steve-o said that it would support widgets, didn't he? I don't think he said who would design those widgets, but I could have sworn he said it...
*edit*
Yeah, here's a couple quotes from Engadget's transcript, although they're still cryptic and I'm not sure whether the blogger was paraphrasing or if this is word for word. But Jobs tends to speak like this, which I find really annoying:
"We have widgets, it communicates with the internet over WiFi and EDGE -- you don't have to do anything, it connects to the WiFi seamlessly."
"Incredible new technology for entering text, a real browser on the phone, we can zoom in, Google maps, Widgets... it's the internet in your pocket for the first time ever. You can't really think about the internet without thinking about google."
So yeah, he drops the word "widgets" in there a couple times, but they seem out of place. It's like he's speaking a sentence and then randomly drops the word "widgets" for no apparent reason. He never explains what he means...
Edited by Dignan (12/01/2007 15:04)
_________________________
Matt
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#292191 - 12/01/2007 16:03
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
It's like he's speaking a sentence and then randomly drops the word "widgets" for no apparent reason. He never explains what he means...
Sometimes he doesn't have to. Our resident Mac weenie was jumping with joy when Steve Jobs announced "visual voicemail" even though when questioned he had no idea what that feature would actually be.
Peter
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#292192 - 12/01/2007 16:08
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Now that I've bothered to look up what that means, I'm rather impressed: Quote:
An industry first, Visual Voicemail allows you to go directly to any of your messages without listening to the prior messages. So you can quickly select the messages that are most important to you.
The image looks like an email inbox where you can select which messages you want to listen to. Nice.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#292193 - 12/01/2007 17:22
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I'm getting the idea that pretty much nobody here has actually watched the Jobs' presentation of the iPhone that was linked earlier. It makes clear a ton of the questions and guesses that are being bandied about.
Visual Voicemail is random access voicemail. That's one of the reasons that the iPhone will, initially, only be available on Cingular: to do the Visual Voicemail, they also need support from the provider.
Widgets work much as they do on any Mac, and Jobs shows off a number of them in the presentation. Stocks and weather, specifically, if I remember right.
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Dave
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#292194 - 12/01/2007 17:31
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I know what a widget is. Everyone here knows what a widget is. The question is: who makes the widgets? What is the 3rd party development like?
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Matt
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#292195 - 12/01/2007 17:32
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The question about widgets isn't if they work, but if you can get new ones, and, if so, how do you get them on the phone? Must they be signed by Apple, or can you write your own?
Basically, can I write my own applications for the phone and will freeware be possible?
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Bitt Faulk
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#292196 - 12/01/2007 18:24
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I know what a widget is. Everyone here knows what a widget is. The question is: who makes the widgets? What is the 3rd party development like?
I wasn't just referring to the widgets, and I'm aware that everyone knows what they are. But people are, in general, talking about things in a way that implies they haven't watched the iPhone presentation, which made a ton of stuff clear.
As far as the widgets, though, it's the same as any Mac (it would seem). Anyone can make widgets. They're simple. But can you put them on the iPhone? Word is, no, at least not at first. Which is made clear by Steve Jobs' comments in the NYT.
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Dave
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#292197 - 12/01/2007 18:25
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
The question about widgets isn't if they work, but if you can get new ones, and, if so, how do you get them on the phone? Must they be signed by Apple, or can you write your own?
Basically, can I write my own applications for the phone and will freeware be possible?
No. Which is what Steve Jobs said in the NYT interview. Which has already been linked.
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Dave
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#292198 - 12/01/2007 18:37
Re: Apple iPhone announced.
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Right. Which sucks. And makes the "runs real MacOS X" pointless to the end user. And makes the utility of the phone itself much lower. It's great that it's got all this connectivity and nice UI, but if you can't get it to do what you want, who cares?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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