#297309 - 19/04/2007 14:27
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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the files are not going to be any more forward- or backwards-compatible than any previous version was.
Forwards compatibility just means making something stagnate. I don't think the people making the first versions of Word ever envisioned 2 mb sound clips or 10 mb movie clips being embedded in a document, nor had the capabilities of supporting such a system in any type of standard method. The Word doc format had to change to support it, or never add such features.
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but that won't help someone trying to open an Office 2013 file in Office 2007. They'll still run into the same problem, mark my words.
Will Office 2013 open a 2007 document? More then likely yes, just as existing Word 95 files open right up in Office 2007. And it will likely be able to save back to a format at least compatible back several versions.
And actually, taking a peek at the File Format Converter, MS did go one step further this time. Download and install that on Office XP/2003, and you can then open and save to 2007's file format directly in the Office programs.
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I believe that MS does all this on purpose, as yet another planned-obsolsesence to make people upgrade the office suite.
So with the above free download, the only reason IT would have to upgrade my Office install to 2007 is to use the new interface. This doesn't get pushed via Microsoft Update for some odd reason, so I think that should change. If it was pushed via MU, the professor in this situation wouldn't have had to do anything if his system is kept up to date.
So yes, MS doesn't have a great track record here. But looking at what they did for 2007 I think they did decently. What would you do differently when faced with a 20 year old format with tons of stuff cobbled on, and people screaming for better cross product compatibility?
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#297310 - 19/04/2007 14:35
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
the files it creates don't format properly when opened on a machine with Office.
Tying in with what Dan said, that's actually one of the biggest complaints with Office in general: that even the same version of Office on a different computer can end up being formatted differently. That problem only gets compounded when using a different version of Office, or using the Mac version versus the Windows version.
Of course, you could make the argument that the various Office products were never intended to be a digital display format, and using them as such is the fault of the user. (That ignores things that show Microsoft doesn't share that stance, like using Word as the text editor in Outlook by default.) But, in either case, the remedy is the same. Convince users not to do that. Of course, we all know that that's difficult for a variety of reasons of varying legitimacy, ranging from there not being an alternative to the user not wanting to change under any circumstances.
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I could easily use OpenOffice.org (and have), but it's slow
Really? I actually find the opposite to be the case. But, then, I tend to avoid the "keep this program running constantly in the background" accelerator programs, which exist for both Office and OO.o.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297311 - 19/04/2007 14:36
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Back off from what? I'm not allowed to my opinion that a lot of high-profile open/free software isn't as good as the paid counterpart?
I don't agree with Rob's opinion, but I agree with this.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297313 - 19/04/2007 15:03
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I don't think the people making the first versions of Word ever envisioned 2 mb sound clips or 10 mb movie clips being embedded in a document, nor had the capabilities of supporting such a system in any type of standard method.
And switching the documents to an XML format would potentially make the whole system capable of a certain amount of forward-compatibility. Current version of the software should (in theory) be able to open a future version of a document, while just ignoring the sections it hasn't got the capability of rendering. That'd be the right way to do it. I'll bet, though, it won't work that way when the time comes. Mark my words.
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#297314 - 19/04/2007 15:11
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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I think the Professor's mistake was not being specific as to which flavor of .ppt file he wanted to receive in the first place.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#297315 - 19/04/2007 15:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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The professor in this case is undoubtedly using OpenOffice
Sorry, Mark, but I think this quote from your first post most clearly shows where your approach to this thread is coming from. I would never in a million years assume such a thing.
Lets get a little reason here:
- The professor shouldn't have been so curt about the situation, but this to me is the sign of a computer illiterate. The users in my office get frustrated because they don't understand technology, and I can even see them making the situation more difficult that it really is, just because they want to emphasize how inconvenient the computer is being to them.
- The student should have attempted to save to another format, or it should have been suggested to her, but its understandable that this wouldn't be the first thing that would come to mind. It's not her fault that everything changed with the new program.
- Which brings us to MS. They've attempted to start more or less from scratch, but should have recognized that not every Office user is instantly going to upgrade to 2007, so they should have emphasized the fact that if you send a 2007 file to a 2003 user, they're not going to be able to read it.
So basically, it's everyone's fault. But the professor can't help not being able to read it, the student didn't know about the compatibility problems, and MS is trying their best and from what I've heard has created a really good Office suite this time around. So some leeway could be given to all parties involved.
Oh, and I don't like OpenOffice either. I found it pretty clunky too. That doesn't mean I use Office, though. My uses are limited enough to get away with Google exclusively. *edit* I recognize that this means I can't make PPT presentations. That is A-OK with me. *edit*
Rob, I know you were talking about free PDF creators, but I can definitely recommend a free reader. FoxIt is really good. I don't know if the free Acrobat Reader is as slow as the full version of Acrobat, but FoxIt opens PDFs about 10 times faster than the latter.
Edited by Dignan (19/04/2007 15:19)
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Matt
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#297316 - 19/04/2007 15:27
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I could easily use OpenOffice.org (and have), but it's slow
Really? I actually find the opposite to be the case. But, then, I tend to avoid the "keep this program running constantly in the background" accelerator programs, which exist for both Office and OO.o.
Yeah. When running OO.o in Windows, it feels incredibly slow to me. I do always disable little programs that keep things loaded in memory though.
I personally don't use Word on a daily basis. But, whenever I have to call it up, it seems to open nearly instantly (Office 2003). This could be due to the fact that Outlook is constantly running on my machine. I assume its email formatting is using components common to Word.
Just to clarify things, I am not a denouncer of open source. I just usually gravitate what will do the best job with the least headaches. Perhaps I'm blessed, but paying $100 for the office suite that is universal throughout the world doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.
Installing Linux on any laptop I've ever owned has been a royal pain if trying to retain the functionality the stock Windows install gave you. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to administrate a web server running Windows.
Nero Burning Rom is now a steaming pile of bloated crap, but the free alternative (CDBurnerXP Pro) is unstable and lacks some features. While FireFox isn't totally open, I like that software a whole lot better than Opera or IE.
I don't just make blanket statements like free = good and pay = evil. The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297317 - 19/04/2007 15:34
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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They moved to new extensions to represent the completely new format, and moved to an XML driven system. This should (in theory) make their files a bit more compatible with other non MS products.
I would suggest that you have made the mistake of believing what the MS marketing dept say - and you are not alone by a long margin. Those guys are good at what they do.
There's actually a lot more to this than meets the eye - and it's not pretty.
There is an ISO approved document format called ODF.
Then there is Microsoft's 'OpenXML'.
Guess which one is fully documented and which one isn't (and has many legal barbs).
Guess which one provides a barrier to compatibility with non-MS products?
If you are genuinely interested look at these references on Groklaw
This is not simply 'anti-microsoft' (though I freely admit I am). It's very complex and not many people have the time and interest to follow through past the very expensive and very thorough spin that are put forward in the name of corporate profit.
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297318 - 19/04/2007 16:06
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
Though it is also unlikely that we would be here if Hugo et al had either had to create their own OS (or bought in a proprietary one) for their closed-source software to run on.
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#297319 - 19/04/2007 16:09
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
EDIT: I'm going to leave that statement, but I am not 100% sure all of eCos is closed.
Edited by robricc (19/04/2007 16:11)
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297320 - 19/04/2007 16:11
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I thought the Karma ran on eCos ?
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#297321 - 19/04/2007 16:12
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Yes, it does. I edited my statement.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297322 - 19/04/2007 16:12
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
Both statements are false.
I just do wish people would take time to understand what they're pretending to be experts on, *before* posting as if it was Satan's gospel.
I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
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#297323 - 19/04/2007 16:17
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
The whole reason why we're all here is because of closed-source software!
The Karma runs on a closed-source OS.
Both statements are false.
I just do wish people would take time to understand what they're pretending to be experts on, *before* posting as if it was Satan's gospel.
I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
I really don't think Rob was attacking you or even open source Mark. The reason we are here, on the empeg bbs, is because of a bit of closed-source software. The empeg player software is close-source and if it wasn't for that bit of software this community wouldn't be here.
That isn't any sort of comment on which is better, open source or closed source, it is just a statement of fact. The empeg code is closed source, we are all here because of that software.
Edited by andy (19/04/2007 16:20)
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#297324 - 19/04/2007 16:18
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I think I should take a vacation myself.
Like Darkstorm quitting making lenses, I'm not going to be blamed for Mark stopping development on hijack.
I don't know why such offense is taken, but I guess you have to be careful about what you say when you make a living off supporting "free" software.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#297325 - 19/04/2007 16:21
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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I'm outa here. I'll return once the attacks stop.
They're not attacks, Mark.
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-- roger
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#297326 - 19/04/2007 16:38
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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I'm on the professor's side.
It would have taken the student all of ten seconds to hit "Save As" and select a more compatible file format. The professor should not have to jump through hoops or install new software just to open the student's files.
In this day and age, a student going for a Master's degree, as part of the college education process, should have had enough computer experience to be able to comprehend this simplest of tasks. (I'm aware that the world is full of people with degrees who are stupid, ignorant, and unskilled. But I believe this is a bad thing and needs to be changed as we move forward.)
Microsoft's idiotic insistence on creating new and incompatible file formats with each new version of their office suite is a completely different rant, of course. But at least give them credit for giving the option to easily save as other formats.
There are numerous people that are very intelligent that don't have a clue about computer software. I'm sure you're not able replace an engine in a car without learning a few things first and you can't learn those things unless someone teaches you. That doesn't mean you are stupid; it just means you're unskilled in automechanics. Most average users, or less than average users if you prefer, are unskilled in what can and can't be done with a computer. If you've never confronted an incompatibility issue with a certain type of document and you've always just pressed save, how would you know it could be saved in a different format?
Yes, she is going for a Master's degree (Speech Therapy) and she probably should know how to do something as simple as this, but if you've never needed to, you never knew you needed to, if that makes sense. And, on top of all of this, Microsoft decides to change the layout of the menu system, adding complexity to something that already isn't that familiar to a rare user of PowerPoint.
I've attached a copy of PPT 2007 & 2003. Would a normal user notice the .ppt vs. .pptx? Probably not.
Edit*:Oh yeah, Tony, I'm not attacking you.  I hope my assumption was correct that you can't replace a car engine. 
Edited by Russmeister (19/04/2007 16:45)
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#297327 - 19/04/2007 16:38
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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And the 2003.jpg
Attachments
297974-PPT2003.jpg (166 downloads)
_________________________
Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297328 - 19/04/2007 16:51
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
This is actually a pretty typical example of two people unfamiliar with computers trying to do something vaguely complicated with computers. Neither one understands what the problem is and the one with the problem doesn't offer any sort of information in trying to solve it.
I think that the biggest problem here is the rejection without explanation. If you ask someone for something and then reject it without specifying why, you're at fault. Imagine a case where you order an album online. Then the album shows up and it's on vinyl. But you only have a CD player. You don't send it back and say "it doesn't work". You send it back and say "I don't have a record player".
Of course, I may be making facts up about this case.
Edited by wfaulk (19/04/2007 16:57)
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Bitt Faulk
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#297329 - 19/04/2007 16:55
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
That wouldn't have helped him, his pre-'07 copy of Powerpoint wouldn't have been open the file even via File->Open.
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#297330 - 19/04/2007 16:58
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Ah, so the new version with the XML format has a "pptx" extension, whereas old PowerPoint saves as "ppt".
That explains a lot. The professor had Office pre-'07 installed. Your sister-in-law sent him a pptx file. Professor double-clicks on file. Windows pops up and says "I don't know what this file is". Professor is ignorant or lazy enough to not bother trying to open PowerPoint and selecting "File->Open". Professor gives up and says "it's not compatible".
This is actually a pretty typical example of two people unfamiliar with computers trying to do something vaguely complicated with computers.
Actually, when you open the file, you get the attached message. I just think it's a professor who is extremely lazy and didn't want to do any extra work. It's easy to say "hey student, if you want the grade, you make it where I don't have to do anything extra."
If you click yes, it takes you right to the download page for the fileformat executable.
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Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297331 - 19/04/2007 17:00
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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And I bet that he doesn't have the rights to install software on his computer, but doesn't want to reveal that to his students because he has a huge ego, which also explains the curt response.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297332 - 19/04/2007 17:08
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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At least the meta-objective was achieved, and your sister-in-law did learn an important lesson, albeit one on built-in obsolescence and the importance of open file-formats, rather than on the subject the professor was a professor of.
Presumably the university has student computer rooms available, well-stocked with PCs running the right version of Microsoft Office? Or perhaps "a PC with Office 2003 installed" was specified in the course-requirements document she was sent? If neither of those apply, then IMO the professor should be reminded that it's not fair to require his students to use specific proprietary software, let alone specific versions of software whose version upgrades are charged-for.
Peter
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#297333 - 19/04/2007 17:15
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: peter]
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enthusiast
Registered: 14/07/2002
Posts: 344
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
Presumably the university has student computer rooms available, well-stocked with PCs running the right version of Microsoft Office? Or perhaps "a PC with Office 2003 installed" was specified in the course-requirements document she was sent? If neither of those apply, then IMO the professor should be reminded that it's not fair to require his students to use specific proprietary software, let alone specific versions of software whose version upgrades are charged-for.
Peter
Well, this is a distance education course where she only attends class one Saturday a month so the computer lab doesn't apply. I'll check with her on the syllabus, though.
Good point.
_________________________
Russ
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"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will." Vince Lombardi
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#297334 - 19/04/2007 19:03
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: russmeister]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
There are numerous people that are very intelligent that don't have a clue about computer software.
I'm sorry for implying that she wasn't intelligent because she couldn't work PowerPoint. I see that the structure of my sentences said that. It wasn't what was in my brain as I was typing the words. I was kinda going for a separate rant about how education in this country is frequently sub-par, and that I know a lot of really dumb people with degrees.
With that said... as part of the steps towards the master's degree, she's taking a course where creating powerpoint files is a requirement of the course? I would assume that one of the prerequisites of the course is computer proficiency, then? Or that it's at least assumed if the normal procedure for this college's courses is to submit assignments as computer files?
It's true that I couldn't replace a car engine, but then again, I'm not going for a master's degree where one of the courses requires proficiency in auto mechanics.
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#297335 - 19/04/2007 19:23
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Using PowerPoint hardly requires a proficiency with computers. Ask anybody in any marketing department that.
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#297336 - 19/04/2007 19:42
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I see this as a great justification for requiring submissions in PDF. On a Mac it's painless to convert anything to PDF. On a PC, there's some modest amount of pain involved, but if you buy the full version of Acrobat, it goes back to being pretty much painless.
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#297337 - 19/04/2007 20:42
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Using PowerPoint hardly requires a proficiency with computers. Ask anybody in any marketing department that.
Okay. Yeah. Good point. You've got me there.
All this time I was assuming the prof was someone who knew how to use computers and was rightfully stubborn about wanting his students to save their files in a more-compatible file format. But now that you mention it, maybe the prof is equally as computer-illiterate and just doesn't know how, himself.
God help our educational system.
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#297338 - 19/04/2007 20:46
Re: Professor's Requests
[Re: DWallach]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
On a PC, there's some modest amount of pain involved
Try PrimoPDF. Its simple, free and just works.
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