#297571 - 24/04/2007 21:57
Down Syndrome
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Don't laugh. Down Syndrome affects 350,000 americans -- americans who are just like me and you. We all have our dreams, including our fellow brothers and sisters who are diagnosed with DS. Discuss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74sGlAlBQF0
Edited by tonyc (24/04/2007 22:37)
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#297572 - 24/04/2007 22:46
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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For the record, Billy's post originally contained a footnote indicating his desire to have sexual relations with a couple of the participants in the linked video. I don't think a serious discussion of Down Syndrome requires opining these matters, and given Billy's consistent history of throwing out incendiary comments masked as serious debate, I've deleted that portion of his post.
I've left the rest of the post (and the thread) intact for anyone who wishes to discuss the subject matter at hand without this kind of nonsense.
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#297573 - 24/04/2007 23:44
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Are you implying that sufferers of down syndrome aren't 'worthy' of having normal relationships with 'normal' people? Are you also against interracial marriages? What about small people convorting with 'normal' people?
Don't be so judgemental of these people. Now be honest -- would you be intimate with a sufferer of Down Syndrome? What if your present-day wife had been born with Down Syndrome? Would you?
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#297574 - 24/04/2007 23:49
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The exact response I was predicting from you.
You've disparaged any number of minorities and other have-nots in your previous post, and are entitled to no benefit of the doubt on my part. If there was any chance your comments were for any purposes other than trolling, I would have let it go. But there is no such chance.
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#297575 - 24/04/2007 23:51
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
given Billy's consistent history of throwing out incendiary comments masked as serious debate
If you find some of my past comments 'incindiary', it could be because your viewpoint is radical and differing from the norm. I never 'mask' anything as serious debate. It is serious debate. But, naturally, debates contain differing viewpoints, otherwise they wouldn't be debates. If you find the mild conflict that comes with debate 'incindiary', then perhaps you're just not capable of rational debate, and you should learn to be more open and accepting to the idea of people not thinking exactly like you.
And you didn't answer my question. If you want a serious debate, then give a serious answer.
Edited by Billy (24/04/2007 23:52)
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#297576 - 24/04/2007 23:56
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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While I often find Billy's comments repugnant, I really disagree with this kind of clip-and-snip censorship. Either delete the post of leave it as is. Nobody is forced to answer him / pay attention to him if they don't want to. If unpopular speech is going to be edited out, then please start deleting the Christian hyperbole as well; I don't agree with it so it has no place here. Right?
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Dave
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#297577 - 24/04/2007 23:56
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
You've disparaged any number of minorities and other have-nots in your previous post
If you're going to make libelous accusations such as that, then you're going to have to provide references. I aim to treat people from all walks of life with the respect they deserve.
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#297578 - 24/04/2007 23:57
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm obviously not capable of serious debate then. You'll have to look elsewhere.
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#297579 - 25/04/2007 00:02
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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In any other case, I would have moved the thread to the Moderators forum (effectively "deleting the whole post.") But the video itself is a good PSA for Down Syndrome, so I thought it was best to edit out just the trollish comment at the end.
And believe you me, if there was someone here who was using (your example) Christian hyperbole as simple flamebait, I'd be just as aggressive on that. This isn't about "unpopular" speech, it's about comments that are designed to stir up a ruckus, pollute the board, and nothing else. I'm only doing this after many complaints about Billy's antics, and only doing the "clip-and'snip" thing so I didn't get the predictable "what do you have against Down syndrome patients" response that would come from it. I got that anyway, which I should have seen coming, but, oh well.
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#297580 - 25/04/2007 00:06
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Sorry, Tony, but I disagree. In this case, trolling or not, Billy is right. People say "oh, those with Down Syndrome have the same rights as anyone else" but then Billy makes comments regarding wanting to get busy with someone from the video and you decide unilaterally that that's not ok. Either you're censoring or not; you can't have it both ways. Part of being in a community is having to deal with the kooks and their unpopular speech. If you want to boot him from the board, that's one thing. But "editing" him like that is really fücked up.
_________________________
Dave
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#297583 - 25/04/2007 00:18
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Please do not feed the trolls.
And, before anyone responds (too late), if "Billy" posted a message that said "cancer is bad", I'm 100% sure it would still be a troll. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, merely the individual.
Edited by wfaulk (25/04/2007 00:22)
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Bitt Faulk
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#297584 - 25/04/2007 00:20
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Please do not feed the trolls.
While I appreciate the importance of the oft-repeated newsgroup standard there, I think that dismissing Billy as a troll in this situation is wrong.
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Dave
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#297585 - 25/04/2007 00:25
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks, Dave.
I can see how some comments may be perceived as incindiary, but trolling is a stretch. I'm all about serious debate, and my philosphy about the best way to engage in one is to put worth perplexing, grey-area questions that get people thinking seriously about a certain topic.
And no hard feelings, Tony. I apologize if I came off as too garish or incindiary.
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#297586 - 25/04/2007 00:27
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Has "Billy" hacked multiple accounts?
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#297588 - 25/04/2007 00:35
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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So do I. But I disagree with Billy moreso, so I'll take Tony's word that it was an appropriate edit.
I'm also not sure what kind of answer he's looking for to such an absurd question (the wife one in particular).
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#297589 - 25/04/2007 00:36
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: wfaulk]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Please do not feed the trolls.
And, before anyone responds (too late), if "Billy" posted a message that said "cancer is bad", I'm 100% sure it would still be a troll. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, merely the individual.
Relevant reading for you here, here, here, and here.
Come on, now. Don't let an occasional silly comment get under your skin so easily. Focus on the important parts of the debate; that's what's important. 
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#297590 - 25/04/2007 00:43
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: hybrid8]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
So do I. But I disagree with Billy moreso, so I'll take Tony's word that it was an appropriate edit.
Note the "Period." in my previous post. I disagree with ANY censorship, not just when I don't disagree with the speaker.
Quote:
I'm also not sure what kind of answer he's looking for to such an absurd question (the wife one in particular).
Ok, I agree that the manner in which he phrased the question was worthy of the Nobel Prize for Poor Phrasing, but let me take a whack at it...
Billy (apparently) made a comment about wanting to engage in some sort of sexual relationship with one of the individuals in the linked video. Apparently Tony feels that people with Down Syndrome are off limits, vis-a-vis romantic / sexual relationships, to those who do not have Down Syndrome. Hence the censorship. I took Billy's question to be, in spirit, questioning that belief. While I personally have no interest in entering into any sort of romantic or sexual relationship with one of these people, I have to ask: shouldn't I be allowed to if it was a matter of mutual consent? Or are we supposed to simply look at people with Down Syndrome and go "Awww! Look how hard they're trying! They deserve our support!"
My point is that either people with Down Syndrome are equal to everyone else, and hence acceptable partners should an individual so choose, or they are somehow separate. And I find the latter view to be just a little bit dangerous.
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Dave
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#297591 - 25/04/2007 00:45
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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The idea of forum moderation is that when enough people complain, regardless of who is "right", you do what's necessary to stop any future problems. I don't need to go through the litany of flame wars this guy has induced, a search on his username will tell you all you need to know. There is a clear pattern of trolling without any sincere interest in debating the substance of the issues.
In this instance, I tried to find a balance between getting a good message out and avoiding a scene. In retrospect, it was silly of me to think that would happen, and I should have deleted it altogether. I'll do that next time.
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#297592 - 25/04/2007 00:51
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Tony, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1L2bge1pIcIt's not DS related, but if I said she's cute (she is), would you censor that? Do you find her relationship with the 'normal' gentleman offensive? I think being opposed to such things is *the* definition of fascism. And combining that attitude with authoritative censorship is a dangerous mix. This isn't a flame.
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#297593 - 25/04/2007 00:52
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
Apparently Tony feels that people with Down Syndrome are off limits, vis-a-vis romantic / sexual relationships
Swing and a miss, Dave.
The comment I removed was (paraphrasing):
"P.S. I would totally nail the first chick in the video, and that other weather chick"
I deleted the comment because nobody with a sincere interest in promoting awareness of Down Syndrome would end a post about it with that crap.
I feel like I'm being asked "when did you stop beating your wife" here, but for the record:
I support any relationship between any two consenting adults of any color, size, shape, etc.
My decision to remove that comment had nothing to do with my beliefs, and everything to do with Billy's pattern of trolling.
I won't debate this further. Send drakino a PM if you don't like my moderation instincts. If there's no further discussion about the substance of the thread, I'll follow your original advice and delete it.
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#297594 - 25/04/2007 01:02
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
Apparently Tony feels that people with Down Syndrome are off limits
That does not seem to be the case, in my opinion. Tony's just trying to keep the nonsense to a dull roar.
Perhaps moderator edits should be guided by (not "restricted to") forum usage guidelines. I'm not trying to be bureaucratic (which is something I hate almost as much as Dave hates censorship). Every forum, Usenet group, chat room, etc that I can think of has some posting guidelines. It would be tough to refute Moderator action guided by such standards, especially if the standards were agreed upon by the forum members (even in a blanket way such as "by posting on this BBS, you agree to these terms").
Flame on THAT, eh?
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#297595 - 25/04/2007 01:06
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Apparently Tony feels that people with Down Syndrome are off limits, vis-a-vis romantic / sexual relationships
Swing and a miss, Dave.
The comment I removed was (paraphrasing):
"P.S. I would totally nail the first chick in the video, and that other weather chick"
It was an incorrect guess, Tony, nothing more. Without benefit of the original post, a guess was the best I could do. That said, I fail to see how the deleted comment is offensive unless my guess was correct. Would it be offensive if they didn't have DS?
Quote:
I deleted the comment because nobody with a sincere interest in promoting awareness of Down Syndrome would end a post about it with that crap.
That's your opinion, Tony. If I said "here's a cool video about stopping language loss in the Amazon, and I would totally bang the native chick they talk to", that doesn't mean I'm not serious about language preservation.
Quote:
My decision to remove that comment had nothing to do with my beliefs, and everything to do with Billy's pattern of trolling.
That may be the most disturbing part of this. You didn't censor Billy based on anything he was doing, but on things he'd done in his past. A preemptive strike in case he was doing something wrong. Which sounds somewhat similar to something most of us here have spoken out against again and again.
Quote:
Send drakino a PM if you don't like my moderation instincts.
I'd be just as happy to discuss it in the open forum with Drakino as well, as a member of the community. I feel this sort of thing should be transparent.
Quote:
If there's no further discussion about the substance of the thread, I'll follow your original advice and delete it.
Don't be disingenuous. My point was that it should be a matter of deleting the post or leaving it as is. I can't see a single reason to delete the post. I think there's a great discussion to be had on the topic.
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Dave
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#297596 - 25/04/2007 01:56
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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You know, Tony, I've given it some thought. I need to learn to be a little more clear with stuff. I'm not trying to say "you found it offensive and that's why you deleted it." I thought my last post would make my intention clear, but on rereading it... probably not. My point was that initially, the only conclusion I could come to was that whatever it was Billy said (since I didn't know at the time) offended you, so you deleted it. You've cleared that up, and now I understand where you were coming from. That doesn't mean I agree with the decision. But then, I don't have to agree. You're a moderator, I'm not. But just to make it "clear as an unmuddied lake," I understand that you censored the post in an effort to prevent a flame war. I guess I was just trying to point out that we should give Billy the benefit of the doubt. I know he's got a history, maybe more than one, of trolling. But if we always assume that anything he says is flame-bait, we'll never get anywhere. I hope there are no hard feelings. Even if it had been that you found it offensive, I wouldn't have taken issue with your view, just your approach. I think our differences just stem from the fact that I have an extremely high tolerance for fücked up points of view. 
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Dave
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#297598 - 25/04/2007 02:02
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I take offence to you calling the guy in that latest video "normal." You know, there are likely other forums out there in which you can get your freak on. There's really nothing to debate here except taste. And debating something subjective is a total waste of time.
Was it a slow night at the gun club?
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#297599 - 25/04/2007 02:02
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
You've cleared that up, and now I understand where you were coming from. That doesn't mean I agree with the decision. But then, I don't have to agree. You're a moderator, I'm not.
Well, no. The only person who deserves that type of deference is Tom. I just "work" here. My actions need to have approval of the community at large, or I shouldn't be among those policing it.
Quote:
But just to make it "clear as an unmuddied lake," I understand that you censored the post in an effort to prevent a flame war.
Cool. That's the message I was trying to get across.
Quote:
I guess I was just trying to point out that we should give Billy the benefit of the doubt. I know he's got a history, maybe more than one, of trolling. But if we always assume that anything he says is flame-bait, we'll never get anywhere.
For a variety of reasons, I disagree. I'm going to leave it at that.
Quote:
I hope there are no hard feelings. Even if it had been that you found it offensive, I wouldn't have taken issue with your view, just your approach. I think our differences just stem from the fact that I have an extremely high tolerance for fücked up points of view.
So, tell me, which views are the fucked up ones, and which are the "normal" ones? Can a "fucked up" person have relations with a "normal" person?
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#297600 - 25/04/2007 02:05
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Actually, he has a history of criminal harassment. I've been tolerant of Paul Walton returning here up till now. If he posts again, I will be looking into a solution, likely involving the police once again.
If anyone here knows a good criminal case lawyer that would be willing to provide some free advice, I'd appreciate their info in a PM. I want to end this game of cat and mouse once and for all. and clearly my own solutions in the past haven't worked.
And no, this doesn't have to do directly with the post he made here, but more in general his trend back towards his old ways. I have no reason to trust he won't choose to exploit the site once again to bring it down for everyone, since he can't even honor an agreement to stay away.
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#297601 - 25/04/2007 02:13
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
So, tell me, which views are the fucked up ones, and which are the "normal" ones? Can a "fucked up" person have relations with a "normal" person?
You know, honestly I think the "fücked up" views are anything contrary to one's own. And I think it's very hard for any of us to have a relationship with those who possess views we find "fücked up". For instance (from a conversation some of my friends and I had the other night, and I KNOW I'm gonna hear it on this), I have no problem with incest, WHEN IT'S CONSENSUAL. As in brother and sister both of age. Do I find it repulsive? Yeah. But hey, I'm not the one doing it. But far be it for me to judge what people should or should not do. Granted, there's the question of "flipper babies" in that situation, but that's another discussion.
So please, let's remember: Dave is not into incest. Dave does not support incestuous molestation. Dave is grossed out by family members doin' it. Dave feels it is not his place to tell those family members not to do that.
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Dave
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#297602 - 25/04/2007 03:36
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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I agree with and support tonyc's edit.
I had a whole bunch of other stuff typed here about censorship and intentional community division and yelling fire in a theater but lost it to the forum monster and don't want to bother trying to get it back.
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#297603 - 25/04/2007 05:53
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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It's so easy to get under you guys' skin. Lighten up!  Drakino, I'm glad we settled things through PM. It's your site, so I'll let you call the shots. I think this article is relevant: Create an e-annoyance, go to jail Quote:
President Bush signed into law a prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages
The annoy police are going to get us all!!!11 
The truth is -- this thread wasn't about retards. It was an experimental foray into social dynamics. How can one person, with seemingly innocent comments, cause such an uproar of divisiveness? Isn't this what is being done today in our country on a much larger scale?
A nation divided is a nation conquered. We have become politically polarized, perhaps purposefully manipulated so, by petty, unimportant issues. The ultimate result is chaos and -to quell the chaos- authoritarian rule. We're chasing ghosts, always pissed off at an imaginary enemy.
We should set aside our petty differences and stand together as Americans, nay, as fellow human beings, in the same way that we, here, will always be united as fellow empeggers.
I suggest we start a new thread and take the things we learn from micro societies such as this, and such as in the movie Das Experiment, and discuss how they can be applied to the world society at large. I would be very interested in hearing the opinions of many of the very intelligent people that post here.
Experiment mode = off. Feel free to discuss freely. Because deep down, I know that we're all friends here, and at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. 
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#297604 - 25/04/2007 06:26
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Quote:
Secondly, I've also had several encouraging private messages of support, so I suppose it evens out.
I would encourage those members to voice their support in the open forum.
I haven't PM'd Billy, but I'm happy to voice my support in the open forum. I find the editing of Billy's post to be more distasteful than the "nailing" remark that it removed. I agree with Billy that avoidance of debate, whether or not it's described as "avoidance of flame-wars", should be a non-goal in forums such as this, just as it should be in wider society.
Peter
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#297605 - 25/04/2007 08:41
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
deep down, I know that we're all friends here
Hmmm.
As a forum admin myself I'd say that editing any post is a bad idea, either remove it to the mods area pending further action or let it ride. Billy has a history of being provocative, in some cases extremely insulting but editing his posts isn't going to make him a "good citizen" (even if that's a desirable goal).
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#297606 - 25/04/2007 12:19
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: tahir]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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If this were simply a case of someone just being a troll then I would be on the same side as the naysayers in this. However, it's a bit deeper than that.
The ball is in drakino's court.
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#297607 - 25/04/2007 12:32
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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The only question I have is whether there is any way to have the "Ignore User" feature also ignore all replies to threads started by that user.
Rob
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#297608 - 25/04/2007 13:10
Re: Down Syndrome
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yeah, I wish that was a feature, too. That's at least one way in which usenet is better than web boards: client choice.
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Bitt Faulk
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