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#301121 - 30/10/2007 18:02 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
OK, I’ll give you the governmental analogy.

So far I’ve only had dealings with the “Iraq” homeowner’s associations.

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#301122 - 30/10/2007 18:23 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, with townhomes, you're pretty much guaranteed an HOA, because there's not much other way to tell people that they need to fix their roof in order to prevent water from coming into your house. And other similar things that have to do with sharing the same building.

How do the British deal with this sort of thing in regards to, uh, terraces(?)?
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#301123 - 30/10/2007 19:45 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Yeah, with townhomes, you're pretty much guaranteed an HOA, because there's not much other way to tell people that they need to fix their roof in order to prevent water from coming into your house. And other similar things that have to do with sharing the same building.

How do the British deal with this sort of thing in regards to, uh, terraces(?)?

My house is a terrace, which, just in case there's any ambiguity, means that it has shared walls with the houses to the left and to the right, but I own it from top-to-bottom and from front-to-back. There is no HOA, nor anything like it, and I'm pretty sure there are no special deed conditions either. I'm not sure what would happen to the neighbours if I decided to knock the house down: even assuming I left the shared walls, next door isn't quite self-contained as there's no proper wall between the attic spaces. Probably they'd just sue me for damaging their property, to the extent that knocking my house down damaged their property too (there are places round here where an end-of-terrace got knocked down, and the next house had to have great big tie rods bolted through the entire building to stop it leaning over).

Having said that, one reason I couldn't just decide to knock the house down and build something completely different, is that it's in a conservation area: this is a council-mediated thing where a particular area of town is judged to be worth keeping in its "authentic" state (it's a bit like a "lite" version of being a listed building). This has some of the same effect as a HOA: the council planning department can veto proposed modifications (extensions etc.) that are "out of keeping" with the authentic 1880s ambiance. In theory even such things as replacement windows and rooftop TV aerials are covered, but in practice only really major changes get vetoed. However, relatively few UK houses are in conservation areas; it's certainly not correlated with being terraced or not.

Peter

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#301124 - 30/10/2007 21:12 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: peter]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Then of course you have all the Party Wall regulations and act.

http://www.diydata.com/planning/party_wall_act/party_wall_act.php
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#301125 - 30/10/2007 21:46 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: andy]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:
Then of course you have all the Party Wall regulations and act.

http://www.diydata.com/planning/party_wall_act/party_wall_act.php


Meh, I though this had to do with a party!

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#301126 - 30/10/2007 21:54 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The HOA recently dealt with some major roof repairs across all six units



HOA fees for two years: $150 * 12 * 2 = $3600.

Current cost of re-shingling the roof once every 20 years: $3400.

Mmm..

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#301127 - 30/10/2007 22:42 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: mlord]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
Quote:
Current cost of re-shingling the roof once every 20 years: $3400.


Am I right in assuming that the use of exterior building materials such as ash felt and wood are, by and large, for economic reasons? Even if the home-owner doesn't plan on staying in the property for 20+years, the resale price will take into account the condition of the degraded roof (or 'siding' for that matter). What is the reason for building with something so "short-term", concrete tiles would be a better bet, surely? Perhaps asking the structure to bear the additional weight is a cost factor here?


Edited by AndrewT (30/10/2007 22:45)

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#301128 - 31/10/2007 01:35 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: AndrewT]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
Quote:

Am I right in assuming that the use of exterior building materials such as ash felt and wood are, by and large, for economic reasons? Even if the home-owner doesn't plan on staying in the property for 20+years, the resale price will take into account the condition of the degraded roof (or 'siding' for that matter). What is the reason for building with something so "short-term", concrete tiles would be a better bet, surely? Perhaps asking the structure to bear the additional weight is a cost factor here?


House prices are generally based on (1) location, (2) location, and (3) location. And sometimes on the yearly taxes, square footage, proximity to schools and transit, and acreage of property. Roof condition is seldom a factor, unless the shingles are visibly curling and broken.

I'm being pessimistic on both the HOA fees, and the roof lifetime. Our particular house here (no such thing as HOA around here, either!) has the cheapest variety of asphalt roof shingles. They were 10 years old when we bought the house, and that was 20 years ago. I might replace them (finally) next summer, after 31 years or so.

The weight of heavier materials should not be an issue -- our winter snow/ice loads far exceed that. But the brown curvy tile roofing that is common in hot climates is not suitable for general use here. The wet freeze/thaw winters would crumble it to dust in a year or three.

I don't know anything about cement roofing, other than the curvy tile stuff.

Slate material is not readily available here, so it is not often seen or used.

The better alternatives here, are sheet metal roofing (should last 30-50 years), metal shingles (they exist, but are hard to find), or perhaps plastic roof tiles (relatively new here). There are also better grades of asphalt shingles that claim 40 year lifespans, and are priced perhaps 3X the 20 year shingles.

Cheers


Edited by mlord (31/10/2007 01:40)

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#301129 - 31/10/2007 17:26 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: mlord]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
House prices are generally based on (1) location, (2) location, and (3) location.


That's kind of the point I was trying to make. The value of the "nice" house's location has decreased significantly since the "Clampetts" moved in next door. The owner has suffered a monetary loss due to actions of a third party, and he has no recourse under local laws (this is Alaska, after all, where independence sometimes runs amok) to obtain alleviation or compensation.

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#301130 - 31/10/2007 17:42 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
That's kind of the point I was trying to make. The value of the "nice" house's location has decreased significantly since the "Clampetts" moved in next door. The owner has suffered a monetary loss due to actions of a third party, and he has no recourse under local laws (this is Alaska, after all, where independence sometimes runs amok) to obtain alleviation or compensation.

Right, but that's IMO still no grounds to restrict the Clampetts' freedom of action. If Madonna happens to bring a new single out the same week Britney does, Britney suffers a monetary loss (or, at least, less monetary gain), but it's not right to restrict Madonna's freedom of action on that basis alone. House-buying for monetary gain, like all speculation, is gambling. If the Clampetts' neighbour genuinely didn't realise that, then perhaps McMansions, in line with other investments, should have one of those "The value of this property may go down as well as up" disclaimers shrinkwrapped across the front door.

There are, after all, probably still places in both the US and the UK where (sadly) house prices would go down if a black family moved in next door. Loss of house value alone cannot be a legally actionable event, chaos would ensue.

Peter

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#301131 - 31/10/2007 17:59 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
The HOA recently dealt with some major roof repairs across all six units



HOA fees for two years: $150 * 12 * 2 = $3600.

Current cost of re-shingling the roof once every 20 years: $3400.

Mmm..

Yeah, that's what my calculator said, too. And that's only one unit's HOA fees, of what are typically (around here, at least) 4 unit buildings. Granted, those fees probably also include repainting the exterior, and all the landscaping work.

There were a few HOA fees in places we looked that also covered fiber-optic high-speed internet service, at which point the HOA fee actually started to sound reasonable.

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#301132 - 31/10/2007 19:59 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: peter]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
There are, after all, probably still places in both the US and the UK where (sadly) house prices would go down if a black family moved in next door. Loss of house value alone cannot be a legally actionable event, chaos would ensue.


Well said, Peter. In my heart I'm sure you're wrong, but you state your case so elegantly that I am at a loss to refute it.

There must be a line somewhere that even you wouldn't cross. OK, a messy yard doesn't cross it. How about a situation where the Clampetts decide that it is too expensive to replace their septic system and let raw sewage stand in execrable pools on their property? Maybe they want to start up a metal stamping operation, keeping everybody awake in a quarter mile radius? No, these are weak examples, because in the first the health authorities would step in, and the second would run afoul of zoning regulations pertaining to businesses in a residential area, and not have anything to do with preserving the quality of the neighborhood.

I'm sure, however, that there must be some circumstance, even though confined physically to the "offenders' " property, that would merit preventative action on the part of some authority or other. Or, maybe not. Is this just a small expansion of the "...window blinds the wrong color" scenario that started this thread?

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#301133 - 31/10/2007 20:09 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Maybe they want to start up a metal stamping operation, keeping everybody awake in a quarter mile radius? No, these are weak examples, because ... [it] would run afoul of zoning regulations pertaining to businesses in a residential area, and not have anything to do with preserving the quality of the neighborhood.

What if they decided to take up metal stamping as a hobby? Or they had a garage band that played into the early morning? These are covered (in my jurisdiction) by noise ordinances that are city law, not HOA restrictions. There are things that are nearly universally frowned upon, and most of those are taken care of in law, in my experience. Things that you personally object to: tough. This works both ways, though. Some people work at night and would be fine with the garage band at 2AM, but really hate it when they're playing at 11AM.

Unfortunately, if some significant minority objects, then that reduces the demand for your property. Again, tough. I suppose you could sue, as you can sue for anything, but I don't know if you'd succeed. It's not totally ridiculous, even if I personally find it to be so.
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#309275 - 20/04/2008 04:22 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
I'm sure, however, that there must be some circumstance, even though confined physically to the "offenders' " property, that would merit preventative action on the part of some authority or other. Or, maybe not. Is this just a small expansion of the "...window blinds the wrong color" scenario that started this thread?


OK, so I'm beating a dead horse here, bringing up an old thread. But I have an example that pretty much defines the point I am trying to make.

My house is tucked way back in the trees, off the road. I share a common property line with neighbors who are adjacent to the road. After I lived in my house for 15 or 20 years, my neighbors moved away and new people moved in... with the Hell Hounds.

The Hell Hounds are four incredibly stupid beagles who have nothing to do with their lives except bark at any change in their environment. The noise is physically painful if I am close (<20 feet) to them. If I turn the light on in my kitchen or crack open a door that will set them off, and that is from 70 feet away. God help me if I want to walk down my driveway -- I will be aurally assaulted, non-stop until I am at least half a block away from the edge of their property.

OK, it's annoying. But it's more than that. I figure that those fscking beagles have cost me somewhere between thirty and fifty thousand dollars. My house is for sale, and at least two people declined because of the beagles. I finally received an offer last week -- for $70,000 less than my original asking price. I'm going to take it.

I was supposed to be retired and in Mexico nearly a year ago, and because I am keeping two households (I'm working in Alaska, my wife is working in California) and because the real estate market has declined sharply (can you say: "collapsed", and we're seeing just the beginning of the fiscal train wreck) and because Alaska and California expenses are vastly greater than they would have been in Mexico... I figure I am somewhere around $110,000 worse off than I would have been had I been proactive and fed those beagles a nice bowl of anti-freeze the day I put my place up for sale.

I have a short video clip of the Hell Hounds, but it still runs about 11 MB which I think is too big to post here. If anybody would like to host it for me... ??

Do I sound bitter?

tanstaafl.

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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#309285 - 20/04/2008 17:36 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
I'll gladly host it.
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Matt

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#309286 - 20/04/2008 18:44 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: Dignan]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
YouTube for the Hell Hounds.

I had an evil idea today. If the hounds annoy you, I'll bet they also annoy their owners, particularly if they bark at night or during prime-time television. The trick is that you can choose to get the dogs attention, including late at night.

"Yeah, I just feel the need to stretch my legs at 3am. I don't really understand what's up with those dogs."

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#309287 - 20/04/2008 18:59 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: DWallach
....
"Yeah, I just feel the need to stretch my legs at 3am. I don't really understand what's up with those dogs."


Or an ANDEV -- Autonomous Nocturnal Dog-Exciting Vehicle.
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#309288 - 20/04/2008 21:47 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: jimhogan]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Doubt it'll do much good. The neighbors are most likely inured to the noise.

edit: I do like the idea of getting the dogs used to company.


Edited by gbeer (20/04/2008 21:48)
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Glenn

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#309290 - 21/04/2008 00:27 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: jimhogan]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Originally Posted By: jimhogan
Or an ANDEV -- Autonomous Nocturnal Dog-Exciting Vehicle.

I'll bet you could program a Roomba to do that...

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#309292 - 21/04/2008 00:41 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Here's the video. Doug wanted me to stress that the audio is not as loud as it should be (probably the camera adjusting for the horrible noise). I think it still gets the point across, though...
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Matt

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#309293 - 21/04/2008 00:49 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: DWallach]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: DWallach
YouTube for the Hell Hounds.

I had an evil idea today. If the hounds annoy you, I'll bet they also annoy their owners, particularly if they bark at night or during prime-time television. The trick is that you can choose to get the dogs attention, including late at night.

"Yeah, I just feel the need to stretch my legs at 3am. I don't really understand what's up with those dogs."


They keep the dogs inside at night. (Alaska. Cold.)

I have thought about putting their phone number on speed dial, and then when the Hell Hounds are loose, walk up to the fence, dial them and hold the phone right to the dogs' noses.

I have thought about getting a really loud ultrasonic dog whistle, and whenever the dogs are inside blowing the whistle and see if I can set them off.

I have thought about getting one of those compressed air boat horns and matching the dogs decibel for decibel.

However, it looks like I now have an agreement to sell my house, for less than 1/3 of what it would cost to buy the property and build the exact same house today. So I'll let the new owners deal with it. And yes, I did mention the Hell Hounds in the pre-sale disclosure statement.

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#309294 - 21/04/2008 00:51 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
I love the dog whistle idea. I'm sure it would work.
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Matt

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#309298 - 21/04/2008 07:17 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: Dignan]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Offer them $5000 to keep the dogs quiet when people come to view the house.

Annoying but you both win...
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#309307 - 21/04/2008 16:52 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
Jimhogan started a parallel thread on dogbarkings, to which I responded. Check my response there.
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Tony Fabris

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#309322 - 22/04/2008 01:20 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tfabris]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Would this be a positive or negative method of dealing with the situation.
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Glenn

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#309323 - 22/04/2008 01:55 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: gbeer]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
Positive. As would putting collars that emit the same noise when the dog barks more than once. The noise distracts them from what they're barking at. After a few months, they are trained not to bark all the time. The citronella ones work as well, but I've never used them. I didn't want to smell citronella all the time. I would say no shock collars, unless you try them on yourself first. After that, you wouldn't dare put one on a dog.

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#309332 - 22/04/2008 18:34 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: tanstaafl.]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
After over a year on the market I just sold my house for $30K under appraised value and $10k under tax assessed value.

No dogs to blame.

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#309337 - 22/04/2008 20:41 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: Redrum]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Redrum
After over a year on the market I just sold my house for $30K under appraised value and $10k under tax assessed value.

No dogs to blame.

Yeah... the housing market just stinks if you're selling.

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#309343 - 23/04/2008 00:29 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: Redrum]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
I guess it was a bad appraisal then ?
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Matt

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#309344 - 23/04/2008 00:48 Re: Homeowners' Association [Re: msaeger]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
I guess it was a bad appraisal then ?


No. The situation is a bit more complex than that.

The original appraisal/asking price was a bit optimistic, but do-able. Then the market went soft and houses in the $300K+ range simply stopped selling here. With 20/20 hindsight, I should have quickly dropped the price by about $30K which would have been a true fire-sale at the time and gotten out of it. I'd have been better off bottom-line speaking.

To give you an idea of what I sold this house for... replacement construction cost for buying the land and building this exact house (not that anyone would -- it's an older house with a dated floor plan) would be just about half a million dollars MORE than I sold it for. The house is very well built and energy efficient -- I have to show people the fuel bills before they believe how little heating oil my computer-controlled $20K heating system uses -- and has had at least $40,000 worth of renovation and updates in the last three years. Four bedrooms, three baths, 3500+ square feet (including the garage) plus an additional 770 square foot detached two car garage plus workshop, 1.2 acre lot with fantastic view of the Alaska Range and Tanana Valley, and except for the Hell Hound house complete privacy.

Construction costs in Fairbanks are currently around $200/square foot. I sold for considerably under $300K. Do the math.

tanstaafl.
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