Hello Empeg/Sonic Blue,

Okay guys, I've been reading/posting to this BBS for the past year or so and hoping each day to log on to the BBS and see that ver 1.1 is ready for beta testing or is shown as the "Latest Software", At first the replies to BBS users about the availablity of ver 1.1 from Empeg/Sonic Blue were funny ("When it is ready") But lately this have grown very old.

I'm a valid customer that paid big valid bucks for an Empeg product and I should be able to ask a valid question and get a valid date/time frame on when the software will be released.


I'm now reading that you guys are working on other new products or other important things Okay that's fine, But let's stop the funny replies ("when it's ready") and give the Empeg people a realistic date on when the software will be release, If it's going to be 3 more months before a release is issued then just state so and hold true to the date. I like the product and wish to keep doing business with Empeg but the funny replies and not giving people correct info is not a good way to conduct business here in the United States.

So my Question to Empeg:

Question: When will Version 1.1 become ready for beta testing,etc.


Black Infiniti I-30, 1 OVR 0
MkII Serial # 080000457, 60gigs
Over 1400 Music Cd's

How are they supposed to know when all the bugs will be worked out? Does your empeg not work right with version 1.02? It think they have said before that a alpha team is testing it and the bugs are getting worked out. If you want a date, i'll give you one. July 1. Empeg doesn't do things like most of the software industry, they don't release crappy code in order to meet a release date - like microprose(falcon 4) or wayward(b17-2). Maybe we could start a pool and bet on the date of release or something. Sorry I sound so antagonistic, I really can see why you feel this way. I can't wait to get 1.1! I don't think anyone at empeg will nail down a date for us though. When did they not give people correct info?

Sean

80000078

I agree with you totally. Empeg and SB have been stringing us along more and more with, "just wait and see (wink, wink)", etc. Its frigging agrevating. But what can you do. I wish someone would release a product to compete.. that way Empeg would actually spend some real resources on finishing this product.

Reg #2845: Mark 1 #00173, Mark 2 #119

This kills me; you have perfectly functional software (V1.02) which is loaded with features, stable, and relatively bug-free. Nowhere is it indicated that you have an automatic right to any software updates at all, paid for or otherwise; however, with over 12 free updates delivered free within two years, this has been the case - indicating a level of generosity not found with many other companies I've bought products from as expensive (or more expensive) than this.

Somehow, you seem to have come over all righteous and vengeful because there hasn't been an update for a while - damn it, you're entitled to free software, right?

Given that the new software is a complete re-write at both ends of the link (the player and emplode), that both programs have been completely re-structured to future-proof them and add features that have been suggested on this board, that major changes have been made to the underpinnings of the programs that need extended testing, that the company has been taken over and the entire manufacturing and marketing process has had to be revised, do you not think it's reasonable to expect this to take a while?

I have no idea what business you are in professionally, but you are quite obviously not in software. I think you should be pretty grateful that the development team have got sufficient professional pride and integrity to insist that the software be delivered when it is bug-free, and stable, instead of riddled and crashing every few minutes - maybe even taking all your carefully downloaded music with it. Part of alpha test is a time test - just to make sure that some obscure bug doesn't pop up and sting people a long way into a commercial release. It should also be pretty gratifying to find a marketing department with similar views (integrity, honesty, stability) - unknown in my 20 year experience in software development.

So I, for one, am pretty happy to wait - and instead of crossing my legs and squeezing, I just get on with the main reason for having the r***** thing in the first place - playing music that I like, where I like, and when I like it. Now can we get back to work, please?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Okay the wait has been pretty long but lets be honest if you didn't know it was coming would you be really that unhappy with your empeg running 1.02 it runs perfectly the way it is (mine does) i had an alpine cd player before that had bugs in the software and that was just a bloody cd player. Empeg is a tiny company producing miricles. Be patient like the rest of us.

I do however think they have made one little mistake in calling it 1.1 if it is a rewrite as it makes us that are not software aware think it is just a little tweak not a total rewire.

We've been very busy with a project that dwarfs the empeg-car in terms of complexity; this is almost finished, and you'll be glad to know that much of the work applies to the car player too.

Obviously, this project is going to go through testing and have bugfixes too, but the team has doubled in size since the last release; we can get things done more quickly now :)

Our priority is about to switch to the next revision of the car player software - it's unlikely to be called v1.1 now (but I'll call it this here!), as it has so much new stuff in it; emplode, for example, is almost unrecognisable - it's very very very slick now. We are confident that when the next version is released you'll all love it. In the meantime, v1.03 is going to add (basic) support for the new tuner, as the tuner hardware will appear before v1.1 ships.

We're not going to apologise for saying that we won't release it until it's ready; the empeg-car is an appliance, not a computer, and it shouldn't ever crash - there's no room for sloppy releases. There will be beta versions out for public consumption in the not-too-distant future though, so if you like to live on the edge, you can :)

As for dates, when we can give dates we will do so; Rob's now doing our project scheduling and his deadlines for the other project have all been met (more or less!) so you should be able to believe what he says...

Hugo

Perhaps you would prefer them to behave like a certain big company 'there in the United States'. i.e. announce 'Revolutionary release 2 software' for which we would have to pay for, say, summer, and then around Xmas relaese bug-ridden cosmetic changes to old software (for which we would still have to pay).

I understand your frustration (I am impatient, too), but it is simply that guys@empeg display extremely rare property in this industry: honesty. We know the SW is in alpha testing, they told us that bug reports are still coming in and that they don't have much resources on this at the moment. After all, it is not as if empeg did not work without 1.1.

Tuner and VR are, perhaps, a bit different story, since they were advertised as MkII features, then postponed but still promised within reasonable timeframe, and that timeframe has, I am affraid, elapsed. OK, tuner seems to really be around the corner, and something is aparently happening with VR, too, but I would appreciate at least more frequent status reports (and even more effort from SB bosses to help empeg keep their promise).

One last thing: when I was buying empeg, I knew what I was getting myself into. I know how 10-people company can reastically be expected to operate (OK, these guys perform above all expectations, but they are still human). I perfectly understand their situation with all three delayed features, and refuse to get mad at them, although I paid more than a month salary for the product.

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

...the empeg-car is an appliance, not a computer, and it shouldn't ever crash...

Computers shouldn't crash just like that, either, but we have all been trained to believe the contrary. It's refreshing to see people still trying to write quality software.

Cheers!

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

Thank you! Sometimes all that is needed is just a status update. The last thing we (officially) heard was that it was in alpha, about two months ago.

I am very curious about getting any more information you can share about a few items in your post:

a project that dwarfs the empeg-car in terms of complexity - This sounds so intriguing, I hope you will give a little more information on it. It implies that a new product, more feature rich than the empeg, is on its way and that the empeg may inherit something interesting from it. Given your previous commitment to the empeg car staying as your high end auto component, I can only guess at what you have up your sleeve...

v1.03 - This is the first I have seen about an official 1.03 release. I thought that code branch was frozen out.

tuner hardware will appear before v1.1 ships - This is interesting. Is the tuner that close to being ready for retail? Is the 1.1 final that far from retail?

no room for sloppy releases - Thank you!!! I am currently on a large product to roll out an upgraded enterprise (70,000+ seats) email platform written by a large US global domination company, and am running into more problems than I can count with sloppy or broken code and issues with scaling that have their developers puzzled. It is truely nice to see a product / program arrive that actually works as advertised, instead of being merely stable or completely broken and patched together.

Paul G.
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)

Any chance of a hint as to what this other project is and should we start saving or is it under the top secret list.

Or do we have to guess

combined mp3 player and hover is my guess for the bored house wife with miles of carpet to hover

combined mp3 player and hover is my guess for the bored house wife with miles of carpet to hover

'hover' as in 'hovercraft' or in 'hoover' ?

I hope the former....



Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

This sounds so intriguing, I hope you will give a little more information on it.

I'm sure there will be a press release within a couple of months. In any case the product has already been announced by SONICblue in a roadmap kind of a way. I'm still not going to talk about it though

This is the first I have seen about an official 1.03 release. I thought that code branch was frozen out.

This was mentioned on here a few days ago. After everything that's gone on we're not prepared to delay the launch of the tuner by even a week, and 1.1 is definitely nowhere near that close. Don't forget that 1.1 has to get through alpha AND public beta testing before we can preload it, so we need a stop gap for consumers to be able to use the tuner.

As the car player made it into the first retail stores this week, the situation is even more urgent.

Rob

What retail stores will be selling the empeg?

Sean

80000078

Thanks for standing up for us, although I am the first to admit that 1.1 has taken far longer to produce than we would have liked. The problem is that it is a huge update, and we have been unable to release it a bit at a time as happened with previous releases. Not even the alpha team have seen all of the features yet. After 1.1 I would guess that there will be more regular - smaller - updates.

The two things that people have the most right to speak out about are the tuner and voice recognition. The tuner has been covered in detail elsewhere so I won't rehash that now. Simply, it's coming very very soon (I've never used two verys before so you know there has been progress!).

Voice recognition is being bought in, however the issues are far more blurred than when we started. I believe there are now three companies with potentially suitable products that we can use. We just employed another team member (he starts next month) who, as one of his first tasks, will get to sort out all the issues and get VR back on track. Our new guy (John) is a serious DSP guru (just like our other John!) and I am certain he will help us deliver a very capable system.

Regards

Rob

the car player made it into the first retail stores this week
Congratulations, guys! This is a small step for SB, but a giant LEAP for empeg!
Who'dve thought 2 years ago that by Summer '01 we could go out and buy an empeg?!
WooHoo!
Jason

_~= Dearing =~_
"WAY too happy about having #99."

Damn you're fast. I'm about to post about this in a new thread!

Rob

I don't think it will be called 1.1. I think it would be very reasonable to call it 2.0 but nothing has been decided yet.

Maybe we could call it Rio Car Version XP for Autos Millenium Edition Plus.

Rob

I think we finished the product with v.1.02 - anything more is a bonus. In practice I suspect that more man hours will have gone into 1.1 than went into all the releases up to 1.0 AND we have to pay for new CODEC's, so it's pretty good value for $0.00, even if it has taken eight months.

Rob

I think that the only error that empeg made was to tell us TOO much. So, please (for your own sake) don't tell us what you are working on or we will demand to know all the details! :) With the exception of tuner support, there is nothing in 1.1 that is "needed". I think another little error was to tout some features on the old web site such as WAV and WMA support, VR and auto shut down on over-heat. Because those features were advertised, 1.02 ISN'T a completed product.

I'm so happy with 1.02 that I look at 1.1 (or 2.0 as it will most likely be called) as icing on the cake. (1.03 + a tuner would be nice too).

Any idea on tuner pricing?

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

I believe the tuner will be $99.

Rob

I don't think it will be called 1.1. I think it would be very reasonable to call it 2.0 but nothing has been decided yet.

I agree that it would be reasonable to call it 2.0, but please don't.

The reason: I clearly remember either you or Hugo saying that 2.0 would contain the Voice Recognition software. Not that those statements were official, but I'd hate for someone to give you crap about it if they ran across that old post.

___________
Tony Fabris

Rob, go easy on Ernest. I met him at the owner's meet in Woodside. He's a nice guy.

He's not demanding anything unreasonable. He's not asking for his upgrade "right now". He's not demanding that empeg release a buggy product.

All he's asking for is the expected due date of the 1.1 software. This is a normal question for anyone who's heard that an upgrade is on the way. His only crime is that he's not familiar with software development, and has no idea how tough and unpredictable it is. That's understandable.

Ernest, I hear you. But understand that 1.1 is in no shape right now to ship, even as a public beta. The current bug list is large enough to make time predictions impossible (yes, us alpha testers have been busy little bees). Anything empeg tells you about predicted due dates would be a lie. They'd rather be honest with you than pick a random date out of the air.

Yes, 1.1 has a few new features, some of which you got to see at the owner's meet. But these features are incremental, not revolutionary. There is little you'll be able to do in 1.1 that you can't do in 1.02. Remember that 1.02 is a great piece of software, and even though it's only running 1.02, the empeg is still the greatest and most flexible MP3 player available.

___________
Tony Fabris

I brought this v1.1/v2 thing up like 4 months ago. Nobody would explain to me why such a large release was effectively labeled as a small upgrade. It's obvious that the software will be beyond what we have now in so many ways, so why not just label it v2? I really don't understand why software companies do this. Is there a numbering convention that someone could explain to me? For example, I'm now using AIM version 4.3.2229.

I don't expect anyone to answer me though, no one has the last 3 times I posted this question...

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

In the case of X.Y.nnnn,

X is a major release number
Y is a minor release number, which adds some functionality or fixes bugs but is essentially still X
nnnn is a build number, which increments every time work is done and does not constitute a release

In our case we just quote the X.Y elements. We tend to use teeny increments for bug fix releases (e.g. 1.01, 1.02) and larger increments for new functionality (e.g. 1.1). Whether 1.1 should be 2.0 is hard to say. It is still very recognisably the same software, but there are quite a lot of new features. Strictly speaking emplode should definitely be a 2.0 because it was rewritten from scratch.

Rob

Strictly speaking emplode should definitely be a 2.0 because it was rewritten from scratch.

Whatever you do, please don't separate the version numbers between Emplode and the player software. Keep them the same. Please?


___________
Tony Fabris

I agree, that would get totally confusing

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

Rob, go easy on Ernest. I met him at the owner's meet in Woodside. He's a nice guy.

Reasonable. No doubt he is a nice chap, I haven't met him. Maybe I was a bit too quick off the mark, so sorry I was snappy Ernest. For some reason, my worst outbreaks seem to coinicide with my kids getting sick and me spending half the night wiping up. My sensayumer is a bit iffy at the moment.

However, I will say this; it has become a characteristic of the people attending this board to spend the barest minumum of time researching their questions from the threads available; to constantly repeat the same old questions without checking the FAQs; to perpetually "Demand" something for nothing; to continually ask for release dates that not even the development team can promise truthfully.

Tony, you know as well as I do just how much work they have on in Cambridge; not everyone is aware of this, OK, but it seems as if patience just does not seem to be a useful characteristic here any more. [Lancashire Pub Voice] I meean, when I signed up, I 'ad ter wait two whole years before I could even order mine! [/Lancashire Pub Voice]

I mean, what difference is a few more weeks going to really make? I can almost hear the moans that are going to go up when 1.1 finally appears; not 'cos it's buggy, but because it apparently doesn't look all that different. No thought or consideration is going to go into the amount of work that has gone into making it look exactly the same, (give or take a few features), but have a much better infrastructure ready for the next generation of major feature jumps. Noooo, it'll just be:

"Awww, maaan, is that all?????"

I really wish, wish, beg you would put up a couple of FAQs:

Q: When is the tuner/1.1 software/VR software going to arrive???? *

A: WHEN IT'S READY!!!!!

Q: What's the most important characteristics for an empeg car owner?

A: PATIENCE.

Q: What's the most important part of owning an empeg car?

A: PLAYING MUSIC.


* Delete as appropriate.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Heh, well, there is already a FAQ entry about when the tuner and VR software will arrive.

___________
Tony Fabris

I think that the only error that empeg made was to tell us TOO much. So, please (for your own sake) don't tell us what you are working on or we will demand to know all the details! :)

Well, this I have to disagree. I do like all the updates on the current progress that we see here on the "Unofficial Empeg BBS". One of my complaints long ago (I'm not going to go link to it, as I have definitely changed my opinion after owning a Mark 1 and 2) was that empeg didn't provide that much information to their customers. Honestly it was better then most other companies back then, but I definitely saw room for improvement. I'm not sure if my original post really did help to change the minds of people like Rob and Hugo, or if I just ended up making them mad at the time. But communication has definitely improved, and I'd like to keep it that way.

In reply to:

---

I like the product and wish to keep doing business with Empeg but the funny replies and not giving people correct info is not a good way to conduct business here in the United States.

---

Hey guys... no worries here, us Canadians can wait patiently!


#170... I got SN: 080000101 12 gig Blue!

I'm sorry Ernest, but I don't know what you mean by "funny replies". There may have been one somewhere, but most of the time they have been very gracious in their supply of information. We've always known what the status of the software was (not complete). It's not like every time someone asked for the status of 1.1, rob was there with a "wink wink". Not at all.

Maybe you missed them by not being on this board very often, but there have been so many posts on the 1.1 delay that all we can do now is use humor to keep from yelling at people for their impatience!!

Sorry, had to vent there, couldn't think of a joke

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

Actually, I think what we are seeing is becoming a fairly common occurance:
A relatively few people get interested in a great product (before it's even out!), begin forming a group to support the creators, discuss the project, etc.
The product comes out, many people start getting interested, yet don't know the entire history or culture behind the product. Demands start being made, people mistake normal (to old timers) developement time for extraordinary (to them) delays. My goodness, how long did it take for the Mk 1 to become a reality?

Anyway, remember that there is a large unspoken, lurking mass of people who understand that these delays are normal, they're expected, and (most importantly) worth it! Unfortunately it's the new, vocal few who are speaking up and being noticed; one of the problems with the internet in my opinion.

Off topic: Thank goodness for distributed.net, otherwise I would have never found out about the empeg, and become number 703 on the waiting list! See, I have been lurking awhile! I've just found that others are able to answer questions better, and there's always some idiot willing to ask the questions I can't be bothered to.

I disagree. I had two reasons I replaced my Mk1 with a Mk2. One was Ethernet, and the other was VR.

VR is still not even close. Now, I'm still pretty happy with the unit, but I'm getting sick of people saying "be happy with what you've got". Hey, I'd be happy with my Mk1 still if it weren't for VR, which was what tipped the balance and made me decide to go ahead and purchase another empeg. I mean, criminy.

Fly me to the moon...

Wow, This question really sparked a flame from other BBS users, Well guys I do read the BBS every day. All I wanted from Empeg was a time frame on when the software will be ready, I was at the Woodside Empeg meeting and was vocally told that a software release would come in about 2 weeks, it's been a month or two since then.

Yes, I can live with ver 1.02 but I've seen the future and now I want that. I'm very happy in showing off my Empeg player to anyone who sits in my "EMPEG RIO 600 AWARD WINNING" automobile. But I would like it more showing them ver 1.1.

Questions was asked what I do for a living: I work for Conexant Systems (now Mindspeed Systems) I am an Design Engineer working on our Network IC's(i.e T3/E3,Sonet,T1/E1,Fibre,Mappers,ADM,etc). I have written software before and I know that projects take longer than what you planned, That's okay just give a ballpark figure if it's going to take until June/July then fine I can wait (Well what choice do I have)

Thanks for taking it easy on me and the many responses on the topic.

Ernest



Black Infiniti I-30, 1 OVR 0
MkII Serial # 080000457, 60gigs
Over 1400 Music Cd's

Well guys I do read the BBS every day

Well, that's good at least. But it's strange that you would still raise this issue, especially since it was raised in a thread only a few days ago, then another a few days before that, then a few... you get the idea. Asking again most likely will not make it happen any sooner.

Oh well, at least 1.1 won't take as long as a certain game by Lionhead studios

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

I'll Take Aug 1. in the release date pool.

I hope "All the usual suspects" are excluded.

Glenn

The two week thing at Woodside was a joke - someone said "the software will ready in two weeks but who knows when that two weeks will start" or words to that effect. I don't think it was even anyone from empeg that said it.

Rob

If communication has improved it's probably because we now have twice as many staff, and we don't have to work past midnight most days. In the old days practically all customer communication was my responsibility - support email, pre sales enquiries, news letters, the web site, the BBS and trade shows all had me stretched a little thin. If I had to organise something like a CES booth it would take almost all of my time for two solid months.

At times it was hard to keep everyone happy. That's the startup challenge!

Now we have a support team in Cambridge, a sizeable marketing communications division in Vancouver, a web team etc etc. That said there still don't seem to be enough hours in the day

Rob

Oh well, at least 1.1 won't take as long as a certain game by Lionhead studios

Yeah, but damn, wasn't it SO worth the wait?

___________
Tony Fabris

I thought the "Two Weeks" joke was a reference to an old joke from id Software. That was their pat answer to every time-estimate question.

___________
Tony Fabris

Oh well, at least 1.1 won't take as long as a certain game by Lionhead studios

Yeah, but damn, wasn't it SO worth the wait?

True, true

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

Gotta ask, what game was that?

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

Black and White.

Go buy it now. You won't be disappointed.

Just don't go onto level 5.

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

Black and White? Does that mean I can use my 286 with CGA graphics? :)

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

Black and White? Does that mean I can use my 286 with CGA graphics? :)

Heh, even my 450 with a 64mb GeForce2 chugs along kinda slow on Black and White. It's very graphically intensive.

And I didn't have any problems on level 5. Finished the game and my creature is fine now. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

I'm going through the game again from the beginning with a fresh creature, trying to play all-evil instead of all-good, and trying to finish all of the side quests.

___________
Tony Fabris

Go buy it now. You won't be disappointed.

...unless you've been anticipating the game for over a year, and then grew tired of it after 3 days...

"Your worshippers are hungry! Your worshippers need food! Your worshippers are starving and dying!"

My response "Go get yourself some damn food, I'm BUSY!"

Ugh. Talk about a disappointing game. Amazing graphics, amazing AI, poor execution. I would have returned it had that been possible. :)

(O|||||O)

"Your worshippers are hungry! Your worshippers need food! Your worshippers are starving and dying!"

If that's happening to you too much, you're missing something about the game mechanics. Your towns should, if you've done things properly, be self-governing for most of their needs.

I was about to launch into a discussion of how to handle the worshippers without micromanaging them, but this thread is already too far off-topic. Instead, I'll just point you to a couple of good web guides on how to handle the worshippers and the creature:

http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/bwhints.html
http://www.wischik.com/lu/senses/bwcreature.html

Reading those guides significantly increased my appreciation for the game and made the gameplay much more fun and interesting. Once you understand these nuances, the game really starts to show its brilliance and depth. Check them out!

___________
Tony Fabris

..unless you've been anticipating the game for over a year, and then grew tired of it after 3 days...

Here's an excerpt from a review of the game by Computer Games Online that would seem to support your view...

Black & White feels like the best game in the world—at least for the first
week or so. After the initial buzz wears off it's impossible not to respect
the obvious skill and talent that went into the game's creation, but you also
realize that it may be the most mediocre game you've ever played
obsessively for weeks on end. It's a brilliant toy but also a jumbled
mishmash of original ideas and mundane gameplay that fails to deliver a
cohesive single- or multiplayer experience. The overall experience never
quite matches the dizzying heights of its individual elements.

I tend to prefer simpler games in any case -- DOOM is still my favorite. Not much of a learning curve, the strategy is simple: if it moves, you shoot it.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I tend to prefer simpler games in any case -- DOOM is still my favorite. Not much of a learning curve, the strategy is simple: if it moves, you shoot it.

Yeah... gotta love classics like that. I actually grabbed Serious Sam which is basically going back to the Doom mentality. Very little plot, lots of weapons, and lots and LOTS of monsters to frag. Very fun in co-op mode with some of your friends. You should check it out if you liked Doom. ;)

Anyway, enough off topic for me. :)

(O|||||O)

In reply to:

---

In the old days practically all customer communication was my responsibility - support email, pre sales enquiries, news letters, the web site, the BBS and trade shows all had me stretched a little thin.

---

Come now Rob, you weren't stretched THAT thin :0

-m

...proud to have owned an Empeg since 00287

Come now Rob, you weren't stretched THAT thin :0

I certainly remember him doing a heck of alot though. He replied to everyone.

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

OK, not in any physical sense I will admit.

Rob

Come now Rob, you weren't stretched THAT thin :0

Well, see the "other" project that isn't car-related that empeg has been secretly working on is the perfection of human cloning. So in actuality there is an army of Robs running around Cambridge doing support work for empeg. (Now THERE is a scary thought! ;) )

(O|||||O)

Sorry I can't comment on the Rio Person project.

Rob