#304453 - 27/11/2007 02:11
G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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i inherited a 1.6GHz Power Mac G5 and decided to make use of it as a server of sorts. Home network file serving, light FTP, nothing too crazy.
I received the machine as bone stock as the day it was born. 1.6GHz single-cpu, 256MB RAM, 80GB hard drive, and OS X 10.3.9. My brother's data was still on the 80GB original hard drive, so I simply replaced it with a Western Digital 750GB SATA drive. While I was at it, I also swapped the two 128MB memory modules for a couple 1GB sticks and upgraded the "SuperDrive."
The new 750GB was christened with a new install of Leopard and that's where things went south. Any amount of normal use will eventually result in the mouse/video freezing. If the computer is sitting serving files, it can seemingly run forever. Once I start doing something like web browsing on it, the computer will always crash to the point I have to hold the power button to shut it down.
At first I thought Firefox 2.0.0.9 was to blame, but then it froze while working in Safari and once while transitioning from one Spaces desktop to another.
My initial though was that I have bad RAM. However, I was transferring data from a USB hard drive during one of the freezes and, although the screen was stuck, the transfer seemed to still be going along fine. Could it be the video card is somehow to blame? It's the stock 64MB nVidia model that seem to work fine in the older OS.
This is my first major leap into Apple computing, so I have to admit I'm a little clumsy when it comes to moving around the OS. I can't really find anything that can diagnose my problem. Are there any utilities available in the OS, or something I can download? Any known compatibility issues with something I've installed? Should I attempt to reinstall the OS? Any ideas?
Thanks.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304454 - 27/11/2007 02:59
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Since it may still be alive when the GUI freezes, enabling SSH and logging into it remotely will be one of the quicker ways to find out what is going on. To do so, open System Preferences, go to Sharing, and check Remote Login.
Next time it does this, ssh in, and try to do "sudo dmesg" to get the kernel log. The last lines may reveal something useful. You can also do "ps aux" to list all running processes, and try to find if something is hung. Once rebooted, in the Utilities folder is an application called Console. You can use that to look at system logs, and see if anything relevant is being saved out to the logs on disk.
Also, if you want to give the hardware a test, the system should have a set of restore discs. Put in the first one (if there are multiples), and reboot holding the alt/option key. A boot menu should appear, and one of the options should be a hardware test.
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#304455 - 27/11/2007 12:10
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I'm going to induce a freeze when I get home later (about 12 hours from now), so don't think I'm ignoring this suggestion. I will post the results here.
I also want to say that I find it annoying that Apple Remote Desktop appears to be VNC-based, but you can't access it with a generic VNC client. Some say that OSXvnc is buggy, but it seem like the most popular option. Does anyone use that or know of a way to use ARD with a standard VNC viewer?
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304456 - 27/11/2007 13:01
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I've got a bunch of headless G5 Xserves and originally I had to run OSXvnc, it's not too bad. We then bought a copy of ARD to use and after upgrading the ARD servers to version 3 the VNC problems went away so we removed OSXvnc and just used ordinary ARD/VNC. One word of warning though, I've found the VNC server to be rather flakey requiring a login over ssh to manually restart the process.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#304457 - 27/11/2007 13:08
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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After reading a bit, it seems like OS X 10.5 allows VNC viewers to connect by ticking an option in the ARD config. I will have to take a look later. Apparently this is a new feature.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304458 - 27/11/2007 13:13
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Nope, it's been that way for ages. Like Andy said, though, it's flaky. Maybe it's been fixed. I haven't updated my OS recently.
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Bitt Faulk
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#304459 - 27/11/2007 16:16
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
My initial though was that I have bad RAM. However, I was transferring data from a USB hard drive during one of the freezes and, although the screen was stuck, the transfer seemed to still be going along fine.
Still doesn't rule out bad RAM.
Definitely do that hardware test.
Anyone: Is there an equivalent of MEMTEST86 for the mac? I seem to recall that the hardware test that comes on the system disks doesn't exercise the RAM as much as Memtest does.
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#304460 - 27/11/2007 16:20
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I have no experience with it, but Memtest OS X showed up in a quick Google.
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Bitt Faulk
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#304461 - 27/11/2007 17:32
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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rember, it diagnosed a faulty memory module in my old iBook.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#304462 - 28/11/2007 00:30
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I got it to freeze while logged in via SSH. The session died and my constant pinging was no longer being answered. So, it's probably not a video problem. I'm running rember now, but I have no idea how long one pass will take.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304463 - 28/11/2007 01:35
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Machine froze during the first pass of rember. That could be telling. I didn't have the log screen up when it froze, so I don't know what might have happened. Running again now.
UPDATE: It froze during the 2nd test. I let the machine sit there with the frozen screen for a while. After about 2 minutes, the fans started ramping-up speed. I shut it down and will be investigating my memory options tomorrow. Good night.
Edited by robricc (28/11/2007 02:37)
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304464 - 28/11/2007 05:02
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
After about 2 minutes, the fans started ramping-up speed.
Also wouldn't rule out overheating just yet. Could be worth trying the test again with the case open if you have time. Check see whether all the fans are spinning properly, heatsinks mounted firmly and not covered in dust.
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#304465 - 28/11/2007 12:15
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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That crossed my mind, but the fans don't spin at an accelerated rate before the computer crashes. I ran the machine with the side panel off for a bit earlier in the week (leaving the plastic air guide/shield in place). All fans were spinning nicely. I need to get the G5 up and running since I sold my Windows RAID server over the weekend. Throwing more memory at it seems like my best option right now. Since it's just DDR, there are a lot of other places it can be used if it turns out the memory in the machine is fine. The good news is that the VNC server built in to 10.5 appears to work nicely. 
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304466 - 28/11/2007 12:40
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Since it's just DDR, there are a lot of other places it can be used if it turns out the memory in the machine is fine.
Since it's just DDR, can you stick it in another machine and run a memory test in that? For example, put it in a PC and use memtest86?
That'll definitely tell you whether it's the RAM that's bad, or something else.
One tip when using a memory tester is to exercise the RAM a bit first -- I usually use Prime95 with large data sets. If the RAM is cold, it might not fail.
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-- roger
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#304467 - 28/11/2007 12:49
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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That's a good idea. I don't have a computer at home with a 184-pin DDR slot, so I will have to snag something from work.
I already ordered memory, so the test won't save me that expense. But, it should be interesting to see the results and let me know which stick to return.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304468 - 28/11/2007 12:51
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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I wonder why nobody makes a motherboard with memtest86 or equiv in flash. We're already getting things like web browsers and DVD players built in...
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#304469 - 28/11/2007 13:29
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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We are?
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Bitt Faulk
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#304470 - 28/11/2007 13:40
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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#304471 - 28/11/2007 16:44
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: sein]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
After about 2 minutes, the fans started ramping-up speed.
Also wouldn't rule out overheating just yet. Could be worth trying the test again with the case open if you have time. Check see whether all the fans are spinning properly, heatsinks mounted firmly and not covered in dust.
Fans ramping up speed would indicate a kernel panic, certainly in the xserves I have. There was nasty bug we had that caused a kernel panic on both the main and backup metadata controllers every time we created a directory on an Xsan volume over NFS. Much hilarity was had by all when this happened 5 minutes before a news bulletin....
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#304472 - 03/12/2007 16:37
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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If you have a second mac around, 2 kernel debugging may be your friend, if the machine really is panicing.
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#304473 - 03/12/2007 20:06
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
We are?
Asus P5E3 Deluxe
Yeah, I have that (memtest in BIOS) here on an ASUS P5B-VM mobo as well.
Cheers
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#304474 - 03/12/2007 20:16
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Cool. I have that same motherboard for my Myth box. I never noticed the memtest feature.
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~ John
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#304475 - 03/12/2007 22:29
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Cool. I have that same motherboard for my Myth box. I never noticed the memtest feature.
Did you manage to get the optical sound output to work?
(requires a dongle)
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#304476 - 03/12/2007 22:34
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We are?
Asus P5E3 Deluxe
Yeah, I have that (memtest in BIOS) here on an ASUS P5B-VM mobo as well.
Oh, waitaminute.. it doesn't have that feature (just looked for it again now).
I could have sworn.. but something around here has it, I wonder which ?
(too many boxes)
Cheers
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#304477 - 04/12/2007 00:13
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I do have another Mac here, but I already reloaded OS X on the G5 and it seems to be working fine now. I'm still not sure what went wrong.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304478 - 04/12/2007 12:44
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
Did you manage to get the optical sound output to work?
I never tried. I've had to get rid of my surround sound setup and go back to stereo with a sub for various reasons. I mostly got the board for the onboard DVI and the location of the PCI Slot for use with a riser card.
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~ John
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#304479 - 05/12/2007 12:35
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I'm sorry if nobody cares, but the G5 froze again last night after running for a couple days without an issue. Somehow, through much googleing, I came across this info. I know I looked for firmware updates for this thing, but I was only able to find updates pertaining to the 1.8GHz G5 through Apple's search engine. I will load this firmware tonight, but I don't know why that couldn't have been done automatically. Since there are so few possible Apple configurations relative to a PC, couldn't the OS automatically update the firmware without much trouble? Abit motherboards can do this from within Windows. I'm seeing posts on forums from a while ago about Logitech mice freezing OS X. I assume this is only if using the Logitech software. Does anyone have more info on this? I have a Logitech mouse hooked up, but I'm not using any driver other than what's built in to OS X. I have an Apple Pro Mouse around, but that is the worst mouse I have ever used. I can imagine the original iMac puck is worse, but I've never even touched one. I also have a D-Link USB Bluetooth dongle hooked up that I'm wary of. If the firmware doesn't help, I'll have to start auditing all my hardware or maybe downgrade to Tiger.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304480 - 05/12/2007 12:51
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Wasn't there a problem with some Macs around the G5 time because of bad caps?
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#304481 - 05/12/2007 12:58
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I'm seeing posts on forums from a while ago about Logitech mice freezing OS X. I assume this is only if using the Logitech software. Does anyone have more info on this? I have a Logitech mouse hooked up, but I'm not using any driver other than what's built in to OS X.
Its the Logitech software that causes the odd problems in Leopard. It used an old version of Application Enhancer as part of its control panel software which really screws up your Mac. If you want something reliable then don't use APE...
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#304482 - 05/12/2007 13:44
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I'm not using Logitech software. No third-party drivers are loaded for any hardware, and the OS install is fresh (not an upgrade).
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304483 - 05/12/2007 13:51
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I will load this firmware tonight, but I don't know why that couldn't have been done automatically. Since there are so few possible Apple configurations relative to a PC, couldn't the OS automatically update the firmware without much trouble?
The instructions say:
Quote:
Before updating, shut down the computer, then temporarily remove any non-Apple memory (RAM).
Once you have successfully applied the Firmware Update, you can reinstall any extra RAM.
I'm thinking that they're scared that whatever incompatibility exists between the existing firmware and the RAM could screw up the firmware upload, probably bricking your computer, or at least putting it in an unbootable state, even if it is recoverable.
Since an automatic update can't remove memory from your system, that's probably why they wouldn't want to autoinstall it.
That said, I have absolutely no idea if firmware updates without this problem are automatically installed. Somehow I doubt it. That's one of those things that you really ought to pay close attention to.
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Bitt Faulk
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#304484 - 05/12/2007 14:40
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
That said, I have absolutely no idea if firmware updates without this problem are automatically installed. Somehow I doubt it. That's one of those things that you really ought to pay close attention to.
While they aren't automatically installed, Software Update in OS X has downloaded new firmware for my MacBook Pro on several occasions, then started the program that provided me the instructions for the update. This included EFI updates, battery firmware, and SMB firmware. Not sure why the G5 doesn't see firmware updates via this method. I don't know if they only recently started this, as my previous Powerbook never had a firmware update during it's lifetime.
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#304485 - 07/12/2007 01:45
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Tiger crashes in the same way as Leopard, so the OS is probably not the problem. I took the bluetooth dongle out to see if that was the culprit. Nope. I replaced the Logitech mouse with the Apple Pro Mouse. No crash yet, but I don't have a lot of faith in that solution.
The computer will lock up for no reason, but not usually when just sitting idle. If this were a PC, I could just throw parts at it until it became stable. Since it's a Mac, I have no idea what the hell to do. Are there any other suggestions? I'm basically at the end of my rope with this box. It would be a shame to trash something that looks so nice.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304486 - 07/12/2007 02:38
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Any Apple authorized repair shop, including online ones, should be able to order parts for it. Any luck testing the memory, or trying the original memory?
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#304487 - 07/12/2007 02:44
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Earlier, you said this: Quote:
It's the stock 64MB nVidia model that seem to work fine in the older OS.
Now that the older OS is failing, too, I'd take a look at that again, assuming I'm correct in that it locks up and doesn't ever get around to actually crashing.
I know you said that the whole system locked up and not just the video, but I've seen instances where a bad video card would cause those symptoms.
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Bitt Faulk
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#304488 - 07/12/2007 02:59
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I tried new modules (different brand) and the system also froze with those. I can test the memory in a PC if I need to. I just don't have the appropriate PC at home, so I have to remember to take something home from work some day. I will make a note on my phone.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304489 - 07/12/2007 03:08
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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unfortunately, video cards with Mac firmware are incredibly expensive compared to a PC card. I only have this one card and I'm reluctant to throw more money at this machine.
I sold my dual core Opteron box with four 400GB drives and 2GB of ram for less than what I have into the G5 at this point. I'm going to have to cut my losses soon. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of time I've spent on it the past couple weeks.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304490 - 07/12/2007 12:46
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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After thinking it over, the G5 just isn't worth the hassle. It's almost 5 years old, it's an architecture that's been forgotten, it's not especially quiet, and it's not especially energy efficient. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
When I received the machine, it had Panther loaded and contained all original hardware. My assumption is that if I return it to that state, it's going to just work and I can sell it on ebay. G5s seem to fetch a decent price still, so I can parlay that money into something else. I don't need another Mac, but it would have been an interesting change of pace. I could probably get a Mac Mini, but then I'd have to dump my dual monitor setup and get an external RAID box.
I have a couple Compaq 2.8GHz P4 small form factor machines that I picked up for $200 with legit Windows XP Pro licenses. It's likely I'll just put one of those to use.
Thanks for the help on the G5. It's a shame it didn't work out.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#304491 - 07/12/2007 14:13
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: robricc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
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Just a quick question, I have been following this thread and was interested in what the problem may be, but not being able to offer help I just lurked. Do you need a special version of the graphics card for it to work in the G5? Couldn't you just dump in any old card and see what happens? Shouldn't it work even in a basic mode which would allow testing to happen ??? Just a thought. It seems a shame to give up now  Cheers Cris.
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#304492 - 07/12/2007 14:34
Re: G5 freezing in OS X 10.5
[Re: Cris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Do you need a special version of the graphics card for it to work in the G5? Couldn't you just dump in any old card and see what happens? Shouldn't it work even in a basic mode which would allow testing to happen ???
Every computer needs a "special" video card that has firmware that interacts with the firmware on the mainboard to be able to display anything prior to the OS taking over. Intel based PCs from most manufacturers use a video card capable of talking to the BIOS, newer machines like Apples Intel Macs have video cards capable of talking to EFI, PowerPC Macs have firmware capable of talking to Open Firmware, and so on. Some video cards have the capability of working with multiple systems, but for now they are rare. I think newer video cards are mostly shipping with both EFI and BIOS compatibility, but the thing that then hampers you from putting an EFI card into a newer Intel Mac is lack of OS drivers.
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