Ok, setting up this thread to discuss what has already happened in Lost. Spoilers are contained here for past episodes, however we may also inadvertently mention things which may not have happened, through speculation and advanced deduction.

I'll probably end up creating more questions than answers here, but that's what the discussion is for I suppose.



Oh, one thing I did pick up from finally being able to check out some of the dedicated Lost forums... At least on one ones I've read, people are mostly complete bloody idiots. Most can't even keep the story straight through one episode, let alone link back to anything from previous ones. Some of the theories being discussed, apart from being useless, are just so hair-brained - not at all interesting nor creative even. There are exceptions, but eventually the threads fall apart when the idiots infest them.

Finale. WTF? It was good. But I'm still somewhat disappointed. Maybe because it was something I had previously considered but didn't like the idea of.

May I propose something here? Can we dispense with the spoiler tags? If we have SPOILER in the subject line, I really think we should skip with all these stupid spoiler boxes. We're going to discuss the entire show here, right up to and including the finale, so lets just do it and not litter this thread with spoiler boxes that start making people unquotable.

THIS POST WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS! STOP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT THE FINALE RUINED FOR YOU!


YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!


SERIOUSLY, STOP READING THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT THE SHOW SPOILED FOR YOU!


Okay, here are my theories (and these are just initial thoughts and reactions to just seeing the show end)

1- the island does indeed exist
2- everything we see in the flash sideways world is merely a time-independent "holding pattern" place
3- this place gives the people who were connected to each other on the island a real life after they die

That's pretty much all there is to how the show actually ended. As to what everything means, it takes a little longer to discuss. In the end, they didn't really say what happened with the island, just that it was safe. But we know that Hugo looked after it, we just don't know for how long. It could have been a couple years, it could have been two millennia. We just know that for part of it, Ben helped him out. Even there, it could have been until Ben lived out his natural life, or Hugo could have made him like Richard.

All we know is that everyone on the island eventually moved on to the next phase together. It seems like a nice idea to me.

Questions left open:

1- did the plane leave and land safely?
2- in the flash sideways, what about all the other people who were on the island? Rousseau? Alex? Etc...
3- most importantly, WHAT HAPPENED TO VINCENT????

My own answers:
1- I think they landed safely and lived out their lives
2- I think they just weren't woken up. Not sure why Desmond left them like that, but I guess he had his reasons.
3- Two words: doggie heaven


In the end, they simply left a lot of things open, and I think they did it perfectly. They never said specifically what the island was or how it came to be. For instance, who created the statue? Who created the temple? Who created the great bathtub drain plug of evil? They didn't say and frankly I don't think it matters, at least not to me.

I liked it. I thought it was a fantastic ending.

After letting it sink in I'm happier with the ending. When it first ended I had a thought bringing me back to an old idea that the whole process of the island was part of purgatory or this holding area. But then I snapped out of that and back onto what you just mentioned. That everything that happened up to that point was real and only the sideways portion was after death.

It does leave a few issues though.... Such as... Where was Sun and Kim's daughter? (maybe not dead yet) Why was Aaron still an infant? (he didn't die as one) Why was Libby there while others were missing?

With regards to the other people, there was one line I can remember, where Hugo asks Desmond about Anna Lucia. And he tells him that it's not her time yet - or something along those lines. It would have been interesting if the people who weren't ready yet were so because they hadn't actually died yet in reality. But that's obviously not the case because we know Anna Lucia is dead. This whole sideways part opens up a lot of possibilities which are probably best left unthought of - such as, is everyone we see dead? Have the people in that holding place experienced their full (alternate) lives in that place? Did they suddenly pop in only when they died? There's history in that space.

But I agree, it's a nice way to bring back together characters that have died at various times throughout their reality.

The biggest question by far however is... What's next for the people we saw?

And then there's also... What about for those that weren't there at the end? What happens to the people that had nothing to do with the island but were simply involved with the main characters? Jack's son for instance. Charlie's brother. Do the main characters remember their post-death lives in addition to their real lives? That could be confusing as hell for them. For the love connections, are we to assume that the people who died later than those we know died first didn't find other loves? Or that those people are just SOL in this particular afterlife because it's islanders only? What happened to Ben staying outside? Just doesn't move on perhaps?

Why did everyone seem to know where they were going and know why they were there except for Jack? I mean even after he had his life flash back.

Why were Rose and Bernard there at the end? But no Walt nor Michael. Also no one that landed on the island from the ship, like Miles. Arzt wasn't there either and didn't he live longer than Boone on the island?

What's the motivation/reasoning behind some of the lives of the characters being completely upside down in this place compared to their reality, while others are very similar? I mean it would have been interesting if in this place everyone was leading some kind of life that filled in a void from their previous reality.

Okay, I'm going to do a pretty bad job sifting through your post, but I'll do my best! Lets start from the end:


I'm pretty sure that the sideways reality was somewhat created for them, but I don't think we'll ever really know how. I get this impression because of what Eloise Hawking said to Desmond when they first met in that reality. But I don't know what role she had in forming that reality. It's possible that she was just one of the first to wake up, and now she just wants to stay there because her son is there and hasn't moved on.


Charlotte and Daniel weren't in the church? I guess I didn't see everyone who was there. But I think the answer to most of "Why wasn't ____ in the church?" is a combination of who had woken up and the effectiveness that last scene would have I think they wanted some sort of core group there at the end. That was the group with the greatest number of interconnections, and perhaps that's why they were the ones ready to move on, because as Christian said, they were the most important to Jack and vice versa (and to each other). I also wondered about Walt and Michael, but perhaps by Michael's actions he wasn't as connected to the group as everyone else.


Well, that's one of those questions that we're not going to get answered, and it's one of the things I think the creators of the show wanted us to think about. I would assume heaven, but would they be going there together? That's something I'd have to ponder over for a while.


That's the thing, I don't think it's as straight-forward as all that, which is why the things that Christian said to Jack about that place were so important. It was independent of time. That might be a cop-out, but it works for me. if we were talking strictly about a solid timeline, you'd have to place the sideways universe at the end of Hugo's presumably long existence. But that would mean that when everyone else died they'd just sort of float around on hold until Hugo died so they could all join the same reality together. I think I prefer the way they presented it.


That's a great question that I think will be a fun one to debate. I think it'll be the same for Daniel and Charlotte (presuming Charlotte wakes up, which I don't think she had as of the end). My best guess is that Ben is going to want to spend time with Alex in this reality before he moves on. Possibly, he doesn't feel he deserves to go. The moment between him and Hurley outside the church was a really sweet one, and it seems like he did redeem himself in the time after Jack died.



I was a fan of how it ended when I watched it, and the more I think about it, the more I like it. What I fear is that there will be a backlash from casual fans of the show who have little to no concept of what happened and couldn't keep even a little of it straight. My biggest fear is that those fans were expecting all along that by the finale they would have a one-phrase answer that they could repeat to others. "Oh, Lost? Yeah, they were all in heaven/hell/purgatory." "Lost, that show about the plane that crashes in the Garden of Eden." "Turns out, it was all in Vincent's head."

I thought about those people when the Richard-centric episode aired, because when Richard spoke to Jacob on the beach, my take away was that Jocob just explained, in two minutes of a random episode, the entire show. But I feared that the afore-mentioned casual fans would either miss that or still be holding out for specifics like I mentioned in my first post. But no, it was clear by then that we weren't going to get much more of an explanation than that scene on the beach. Sure, after that we got the light at the heart of the island, but it still came down to what Jacob said on the beach.

Amazingly spot-on with what I've been thinking since last night, including that Ben is waiting for Alex. The side-point to that is Danielle. She might be pissed when snapped into her reality, because for the most part, it kind of sucked for her on the island. BTW, I can't remember how she went missing from this season - did I forget her being killed off?

I think that the final episode and the whole sideways "gates of heaven" thing was well done despite all the issues it brings up. The beauty is that you don't really need to explain away all the issues, holes and such to make it work. But for those people that aren't into that, the reality time-line still offered a fitting conclusion to the whole saga, even if it wasn't a "happily ever after" one. Reality for the characters ended pretty much like it does for everyone outside of a TV show. They lived, they loved, they lost (hehe, no pun intended) and they died - everyone in their time/place.

There are big gaps of timeline left untold for the characters who didn't die by the last episode, but that leaves room for spin-offs. Like the new 30 minute sitcom about Ben and Hurley on the island. I think they turn it into a resort and the Globe Trotters do finally show up and guest star in their new dolphin show.

Great point about the two endings suiting the two types of people. If you took all the scenes and divided them into "Island" and "Sideways reality," you'd have two satisfactory endings. The island reality even had the big triumph over the big bad guy. And by the way, how freaking BAD-ASS was Jack on that rock cliff? I loved that shot before the commercial break of him sprinting down the cliff, and jumping in the air at full speed, ready to pound his fist into the Man in Black. I haven't been so pumped up while watching TV in a long while!

*edit* But also, how lame was it that twice in a row, Jack failed to stop "Locke" (or Mocke, as my wife calls him) from picking up something while he's strangling him? */edit*


Haha! That's great, because I can so picture that. Oh, for most of the time we knew about the candidates, I was pretty certain that Hugo would be the guy. They had me side-tracked with Jack for a while, but he just seemed like the guy to me...


I'm pretty sure she might have even been killed the same episode that Alex was. It really sucked because she was pretty bad ass herself. You're right, though. If she ever woke up, I can't imagine she'd be as happy to have Ben hanging out with her daughter. Maybe that's one of the things he's contemplating in that courtyard.

Man, that was a really good ending...

And I think that's why Ben stuck around. The same reason you mentioned for Elouise, Daniel's mom. Because there would be issues in the "ever after" with his daughter, he's willing to stick it out in this false reality to be close to her, and potentially Danielle, in a way they never could be otherwise.

Am I the only one who thinks that they didn't do enough to explain that she wasn't actually his daughter? He's a kidnapper, for crying out loud! I have this feeling that some casual fans might not even understand that...

I think they covered it multiple times. Are there actually casual viewers of Lost? I thought it was pretty much an all or nothing proposition. I only know people who either watched it or didn't watch it.

What they didn't cover in any significant detail (among other things) is why that particular baby was stolen. I can't even recall for certain wether they showed the kidnapping in an episode. Do you remember?

The kidnapping can be easily explained away as being done to protect the child, knowing that the mother was either going mad or soon to also be killed by the smoke monster. But that's sort of an afterthought.

The whole handling of "the others" was a little inconsistent and probably comes down to the way their involvement in the storyline evolved and wasn't carved out in stone ahead of time.

That's definitely something I've thought for some time.

And no, I don't remember the actual episode where the baby was taken. I think you're right about why it was taken, just like the kids from the plane were taken.

Yes, believe it or not, there are casual Lost viewers. I personally don't know how they do it and keep their interest, but some people can watch a bunch of episodes, miss a couple, and start right back up again. My best friend's dad enjoys the show, but according to my friend he'll just get up while the show is on and go to the bathroom, get something from the fridge, and come back

I'll do that too. Or miss the episode entirely when it airs. I always start watching at least mid-way through airing. But I also have a PVR.

Same here. I just watched the last double episode. I need some time to recover. Really intense, involving, great acting and directing. But, so much unexplained, and, I too had several times considered the possibility they were "all dead". But that, too, can be interpreted in so many ways.

Ok, I am going to read your comments, while I recover...

I continue to hear many people with this theory. I'd be very interested in hearing the reasons for this theory. I still strongly believe that what happened to them on the island actually happened to them. For me, in fact, the entire emotional impact of the show rests on it. But I'll get back to that after I hear some defense of the "they were dead all along" theory.

*edit*
I just noticed that when I quoted you, I didn't know at what point you thought they were dead. Before the island, or just in the flash sideways?

I actually agree with you 100%. My theory, now, is that what happened on the Island was real. I think it is instead the "future" to be an after-life dimention where they gather before "moving ahead". The reason why I considered the possibility that they were all dead is simply that they could all have died with the plane crash itself. But, I repeatedly discarded the option because it seemed to me unfit or too naive a solution, in one way or another.

Anyway, originally, I thought that the "future" was a secondary line of time originated by the event of Oceanic flight not crashing. But, that can't be true, because characters' past seem to change as well: Sawyer as a detective was not his choice after landing; it had been made before. Same goes with many other characters (the young physisists - forgot his name - becomes a piano player, Juliet goes from accepting a job with Dharma Initiative to being a doctor in an hospital, and many others)

I have to say that I liked, overall.

But, I think I am still craving for a bit more explanation. Just a bit more. What really was the Dharma Initiative? Who was Withmore, and what did he know? Why should the island be protected? What kind of creature really is the black smoke, in some more details? I understand their choice not to explain, but I would have wanted to know a bit, even just a bit, more.

And - but this is my fault - I am still a bit confused about Desmond's role in all of this. I got distracted there.

In any case, I am overall quite happy with the ending. The more time passes by, the more I like it. It is deep and touching, in many ways.

It's not only improbable, but impossible for them to have been dead all along. Matt, you can tell anyone who says that to you that I said they're out to lunch:

1. Julliette wasn't on the plane.
2. Ben wasn't on the plane.
3. Penny wasn't on the plane.
4. Desmond wasn't on the plane.
5. Why would characters who were on the plane, die AGAIN? (Boone, Shanon, Jin, Sun, etc...)

And I'm just including people who re-gained their previous consciousness and were at the church.

I believe they gave a number of obvious nods in the final episode alone that confirmed that what had happened on the island was real. Including near the end where Ben and Hugo have the short exchange about being #1 and #2.

Did you guys notice that while the church looked like a typical Christian church (inside and outside), the room Jack entered into where he talked to his father (who coincidentally is also named Christian ) was full of decorations/artifacts from a number of different world religions.

While I also would have loved to have a few more elements revealed, I think it would have honestly taken twice as many episodes, if not three times to unravel them cleanly, so it didn't seem like they were just spoon-feeding you a cheat sheet. I already had the feeling a number of times this past season that they were often times rolling through a check-list exposing things to the audience. In the end I think I agree with the producers that this was, all along, mostly a character-driven story. I cared far more about the characters in the end than I did about the details. So much in fact that I didn't even think for a second "hey, what about xxxx" when it ended.

Maybe we'll see a story some day set in the Lost universe that will reveal everything else. Maybe a book.

I did notice that. I'd previously half-dismissed a friend's statement that the show had very religious overtones, but I suppose I agree a little more now. I certainly never thought that Jacob and his brother were God and the devil. I still think overall the show isn't overly religious, but that might depend on the viewer.


I had the exact same feeling. My major concern about Lost was that I had kind of stopped caring about the characters. But when those last scenes hit, I saw that wasn't true.

I have one question that I'm trying to think over here, so I'll pose it to you two (and any other readers catching up on their DVRs ):

Question: what did detonating the bomb do?

I didn't find Lost overly religious at all. There were some basic principles that are found in many world religions, good/evil (or just bad), forgiveness, sin, etc. I actually though there would be a bit more to the Jacob story, but I never thought that he and his brother were gods or God and the devil or biblical persons at all actually.

I felt that the religious items in the room were a nod to the various beliefs and possible beliefs of the viewership and characters.

With regards to the bomb... The obvious thing it did was unify the timelines. As to "why" it did that... Anyone's guess I suppose.

Originally the island's current inhabitants were popping around through time and that stopped when Locke moved the wheel. WHy did the island start jumping around in the first place instead of only moving once? Don't know. Why did spinning the wheel again stop it? Don't know, but that's easier to fathom if you think about the wheel as a switch of some sort.

So setting off the bomb reset the timeline. Somehow.

I'm drawing a bit of a blank here... Did we ever see Frank Lapidus in the limbo scenes? That's what I'm going to call it from now on I think - some people have been calling it purgatory, but that's specifically a Catholic concept and doesn't describe what the characters were doing in that part of the series.

Smoke monster - the soul of the man in black, trapped on the island, ripped from his body when he went to the light. Question: Why didn't Jack die the same way?

Here's Lost quickly explained with the help of drawings on Post-It notes.

Thank you, Bruno. I've never watched a single episode of Lost, and now I don't have to. You've saved me at least 130 hours (6 seasons, 22 episodes per season?) of drudgery.

tanstaafl.

Ahhh Doug... I would have watched Evangeline Lilly model construction boots for 6 seasons.

Indeed. Indeed.

Hey guys- sorry I haven't been around. After I lost my last job, I got a new (awesome) job that has kept me VERY busy. However, I just had to come and see what intelligent people had to say about this show, because it seems intelligent discussion about the finale doesn't exist anywhere else. You guys do not disappoint, thank heavens.

I thought it was quite good (though not "THE BEST FINALE EVAR!!!1!11!") and fit the show well. I like the "purgatory" ending well enough and felt like it allowed for a decent way to end the show with a sense of closure. I absolutely loved the scene where Hurley makes Ben his assistant (though I hate that the show made me empathize with and like Ben- he's so evil!). Ben finding fulfillment in being "second" was pretty cool, but more importantly, the progression of Crazy Mother->Jacob->Jack->Hurley where each step seems to be an improvement and a better future left me with a real sense of hope.

I am now busy ripping down season 1 so we can start over- it will be fun to watch again, I think.


I will say, more interesting than the actual show has been reading people's responses to it. It's a rather guilty pleasure that finding LOST blog posts and reading the comments makes me feel like an uber-genius.

Thanks for the discussion compliments, Jeff!

Yeah, I've been rather surprised by the negative feedback, particularly from critics. Aint it Cool had a post with snipets from as many reviews of the finale as they could find, and all of them were negative except for Time and USA Today. I was shocked at how eloquent the USA Today review was. Try to check it out if you get a chance (not sure exactly where it is).

I continue to like the end more and more. I honestly don't know where I'd place it in a ranking of all finales ever, but I think it's in top somewhere. There hasn't been much competition for "best finale" because so few shows actually end of their own accord. I've been trying to think about which ones are my favorite, and I can't really rank them because I can't think of them.

We're sorry too. We've really missed you. Please don't be such a stranger in the future.

tanstaafl.

I agree it's hard to really come up with a list of really good finales- LOST was certainly near the top, but the finale was good while the pilot was off the charts amazing compared to any other pilot I've ever seen. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that one reason the show became as popular as it did (and imo, more popular than a show if its style SHOULD) was because the pilot was just soooo good. It gripped you like a movie and got you really invested in the characters and the story right away.

The only finale I can think of off the top of my head that I enjoyed more was the finale for Dollhouse, but I don't even know if that counts because the "epitaph" episodes were kind of unique (and pretty awesome). As a show, I certainly enjoyed LOST more than Dollhouse. Babylon 5 also had a really good finale (actually, two kind of)- I don't know where I'd rank it against LOST. I don't remember TNG finale- but I think I liked it a lot. But I also remember liking season 1 of that show a lot and when I went back and watched it again- I was unimpressed.

Back on LOST, I read an article recently where they were talking about LOST being a "cult" show that somehow managed to become hugely popular. I think this is very accurate- and a reason a lot of people aren't "getting it" when it comes to the end. People are complaining about not being told "what the island is"- not realizing that any explanation is going to pretty much suck ("It's the result of a meteor hitting the planet/aliens did it/God slipped and fell down on the 8th day and accidentally created the island/It was a place created by warring gods in ancient Greece/ etc.") when I just never expected that particular mystery to be solved. People are complaining about the religious overtones in the finale (I'd argue it's more "spiritual" than "religious"- but maybe that distinction is only meaningful to me)- but spiritual/metaphysical ideas are right at home in the science fiction and fantasy genres.

I'm not saying that everyone who like science fiction/fantasy must enjoy this show- but it if they don't it won't be for the reasons people are bashing it for now. The best science fiction has always been character driven because at the end of the day- dreaming about future technology only gets you so far. How we might react to a different environment, whether a science or fantasy based on, is what makes a story interesting.

Anyway, I have no idea how some people who really had no business watching the show got sucked in a stuck with it for 6 seasons, but I'm glad they did because it enabled them do keep moving on and providing me a "cult" show produced with a really good budget.

MASH? Blackadder Goes Forth? Or this?, which still makes me tear up a bit even typing it:

Peter

I wonder what year that was from?

Good points, of course, but, at the time I considered briefly the possibility that life on the island was already some sort of life after death, I was also assuming that people-not-on-the-plane, via Dharma Initiative which I did (and still don't) know much about, gained also access to that life-after-death dimension where all Oceanic 815 passengers had ended.
Yes, it was probably a big stretch, and that's why i found that unfit.

And then yes, dying a second time would have been "strange". Some "esotheric" traditions maintain that souls of dead people who don't accept death don't move ahead and live a life-after-death created by them as they themselves wish it to be - and this is also what happens in Lost, I think: many end up doing better the things they liked to do, others do completely different things to avoid mistakes, othters do whatever they feel like doing and has a meaning to them -. In that respect, dying again could have been "possible" as part of the life-fiction one decided to create for him/herslef.
However, a big stretch.


Yes, absolutely. As well as Christian Sheppard's words to Jack himself, in the church. He basically says it openly.


Indeed. Jack's father image in front of the colored-glass window seemed to be conceived to be very symbolic.


True, but I think that by reducing a bit chasing and shooting they could have explained quite more details. It would have been less action, definitely, and many would have probably found the show more boring.


I'd be happy with some special feature in the BD Super-Collection-Box that I am sure will be published at some point.

Here are some details on collection box set and season 6 BD releases.

Also, there's this rumor.

I am soo buying this... Actually, I know I'll buy the whole collection box set. Thank you for the link!

I finally just finished watching the last season of Lost. And felt like commenting.

I think the two of you hit on the most important part of the finale, and the show in general, but failed to realize it:



Things related to the existence of the island's inhabitants after the point when the bomb was either detonated or not affected the lives of the (future/would-be) Survivors. The most obvious of these is the crash of Oceanic 815.

We're shown a good number of other direct ones in the (further in the past than usual) flashbacks in the same episodes where the bomb is detonated, when Jacob appears to Sawyer at his parents' funeral, to Kate as she tries to steal a lunchbox, etc.

Then there are other, indirect changes, like the fact that Ben didn't stay on the island very long, Juliet never went, etc. Then there are even more obtuse effects, like Daniel never had a chance to go to the island, enter the past there, and encounter his mother, so she never had the impetus to direct his life towards science and away from music.

This all makes the flash sideways a pretty straightforward alternate reality, which is why the finale pissed me off a little. Recasting it as a deathbed hallucination (a notable example of which Locke was seen reading at one point in the show) smacks of laziness.

That said, if Jack was dead, is the point at which he died the one shown in the island-based segment of the finale? Are you sure? He died in the same place he woke up in the first episode, and with Vincent running to him both times. How can we be sure that the entire series wasn't Jack's hallucination? Maybe Jack died in the nuclear explosion on the island instead, and the entire last season was false. I think I prefer that explanation.

Of course, these inconsistencies are probably intentional of the writers, and kind of remind me of a noted short story in which there are two possible sequences of events, both of which were impossible. Perhaps it is intended as an allusion to that theme. More overarchingly, I think that the writers intend for the audience, and not just the characters, to be caught in a "Man of Science; Man of Faith" dichotomy.

So while the finale pissed me off a little, I think it's compelling, and was probably intended to piss me, as a man of science, off.