I'll let Bitt dispute your assertions about medicare, I don't know enough about it. But if you think USPS is a bad example, [insert impolite, disparaging phrase here].

The USPS ran at a 2.8 billion dollar loss in 2008. Terrible, isn't it? On revenues of 68 billion dollars, that's a 4% deficit. I'll bet none of those so-called "free-market" businesses lost 4%. Oh, wait...

The USPS delivered 177 billion pieces of mail in 2009. Had they been allowed to increase their rates by 1.6 cents per item, they would have shown a profit which they have done many times in the past.

So why does Federal Express show a profit? Must be because it's a free market thing, I guess. Let's see, I want to mail a four-pound package from Florida to Alaska.

$04.85 USPS Flat-Rate Priority Mail (3--4 day delivery)
-------
$04.85 total cost


$23.62 Federal Express Ground (1--2 WEEK delivery)
$02.10 Home delivery surcharge
$12.50 Saturday delivery surcharge
$03.50 Fuel surcharage
$10.00 No zip code fee
-------
$51.72 total cost

So at nearly 11 times the expense for about 1/3 the service (defined as the inverse of the number of delivery days) Federal Express manages to eke out a profit on the transaction, while the Post Office loses about a penny and a half. Clearly the Post Office is a shining example of ineptitude and we should all take full advantage of the free market expertise of Federal Express.

Of course, the Post Office only manages to stumble along because of the massive federal subsidies it receives. Why, in 2009 alone the USPS received, umm, let me look it up, yes, here it is: $0.00 in tax money. The United States Post Office is an independent, federally controlled (but not federally funded!) business. It competes directly with other delivery companies like DHL, Federal Express, and UPS, offering services at a small fraction of the price with considerable reliability.

When you consider the miracle of being able to stick a small square of paper that cost most of us less than one minute of working time to pay for onto the corner of an envelope, and know with some certainty that that envelope will arrive at its destination on the other side of the country in a matter of a few days... it absolutely boggles my mind that anybody in their right mind can disparage the USPS.

Just consider the alternative...

tanstaafl.

OK, I’ll start a business that delivers mail to your mailbox. Oh wait, that’s against the law. So there is not way of knowing how much cheaper a privately run mail company would be that delivers to your mailbox. Seeing how snail mail is becoming extinct I’m sure we’ll never know what might have been.

It probably doesn't cost Federal Express $46.85 ($51.72 -$4.85 -$.02 to cover the USPS deficit) to put the letter on my doorstep instead of in my mailbox.

If you want to try and deliver a letter in half a week clear across the country for 44 cents, be my guest!

tanstaafl.

To repeat Doug, the USPS effectively is a private company, except the government gets to dictate their prices. And they're not dictating high prices.

Also, in many urban areas, people's mailboxes are at their door, either a wall-mounted box or a slot. So, in those cases, the USPS does no less work than FedEx or UPS, and still charges far less. Alternately, in the case of larger packages, the USPS also does the same work for less money.

In my opinion, the two things that the USPS has wrong are that their tracking is lousy and their rates are confusing. If they fixed those, mostly the rates issue, I think they could improve their customer base for packages significantly.

I can't agree more on the tracking. It is beyond bad.

Bitt, I like you, and I enjoy our discussions, but you have managed to convince me that you don't know what you're talking about. The government owns all of the capital property of the USPS. How, exactly, is this a private company? Do you mean it's self-funding? There is an enormous difference between those two things.

Does congress, the senate or other such government body dictate the operations of the USPS?

I don't think you'd see any improvement to the USPS if it were run by any other private entity.

Yes, self-funding. I realize that it's not a totally separate organization, not even to the level of a GSO, but its operations are independent of the government and it receives no funding from the government. Yes, the government would certainly bail them out if they became insolvent, but that is not the case.

All of that is why I said "effectively". Beyond the price dictates and the surety of existence (which seems to be a no-op, for now, at least), I fail to see how a completely private entity would act differently.

On US healthcare reform: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/03/why-this-moment-matters/37798/

Short and to the point.

I think the rest of the world is saddened to see so many in the US constantly trying to bring it down. These are usually the same people giving the country a bad name internationally. I don't think any one president is going to be the magic cure-all, but you have to start somewhere. And the Bushes... They didn't do anything but put your country years (even decades) in reverse.

Lousy tracking? I just spent 26 seconds (by stopwatch) tracking a package I sent out last week. That includes going to my cliptrak program and loading the tracking number into the clipboard, starting Firefox, going to usps.com, pasting the tracking number and clicking the Go button. What more information could I want, and how much faster could I have gotten it?

Rates confusing? Use their flat rate shipping, and you have a grand total of three rates, one for small, one for medium, and one for large packages. No matter what the weight. No matter where (within the US) you are sending. How could anything possibly be less confusing than that?

In the attached tracking info, note that after the considerable delay getting out of Mexico (using a forwarding service) through customs and into the US postal system, delivery took three and a half days (84 hours) from Texas to Alaska. [Well, it hasn't been delivered to his home yet, that'll be this afternoon, so call it four days] I was able to print my own postage and charge it to my credit card, track it effortlessly on-line, and use shipping materials provided for free by the USPS. Simple, fast, secure, $4.85 -- an incredible bargain.

If you haven't spent time on the USPS website, you should do so. It is (IMHO) a shining example of what a commercial website should be.

tanstaafl.

Anyone complaining about USPS has never used Canada Post. For that matter, FedEx and UPS are both a much bigger PITA to use, both from a service and from a web site perspective.

That is all "after the fact tracking."

Tracking a package and getting a deliver date when in progress is something USPS does not do well, or at all from what I can tell.

The infrastructure needed for a phone call halfway across the country is not cheap either but private companies are doing that everyday for a profit.

No, no way save for baseless speculation such as that, if operated solely by the profit motive and not with a mandate of universal single-price service[*], a company would immediately drop service to unprofitable rural communities in favour of the lucrative city-to-city market. And that an already somewhat disenfranchised sector of the US, the rural poor, would just disappear and drop off the end of the world. That's why ending Saturday service prompts endless USPS soul-searching whereas a for-profit company would drop it like it's hot: because it's a service serving up valuable social inclusion.

In fact the example of the postal service is a reasonably good analogue for the benefits of healthcare reform. You get the government involved when the free market would cause unconscionable harm to those at the bottom of the market. USPS = Useful Single-Payer Simulator.

Peter

[*] Um, which I'm assuming they have. Certainly our equivalent Royal Mail monopoly is tied to a universal-service mandate.

What he said.

As far as rates go, I will readily admit that their new Flat Rate stuff is a great step in the correct direction. However, that doesn't get rid of their existing hugely confusing rate structure. Honestly, it would help if they would just quickly summarize what the differences are between Priority, Express, First Class, and Parcel Post. I'm sure it's simple, but I never can remember from time to time. In addition, there's no way to get a quote for all of them by entering your information once; you have to enter it multiple times. The kiosks at the post office actually do this pretty well, but I usually want to compare USPS, FedEx, and UPS, and I can't do that there.

Peter wins the Internet.

Sometimes it takes someone on the outside looking in to clarify things so well.

I consider the postal service and the cell phone industry to be very similar. They both require a high investment and infrastructure and are better served by a few large organizations. I agree with your urban/rural analogy, to a point. Mail service and cell service (in its infancy compared to the USPS) both started out servicing urban customers only. Once that market was saturated they both expanded to the rural community. Most rural residents (me being one) accept this fact. We are the last one’s to get “the latest” and greatest. I just recently (10/2009) got acceptable (not great) high speed internet access. However I was not yelling to the government demanding that “I’m entitled” to high speed internet. The market finally found it profitable to provide the infrastructure needed to get my money. No one else had to subsidize my internet because I made the decision to live in the sticks. I made my own bed and reap the consequences.

You can consider all you want, but the USPS has a special place in US law. And, no, I'm not talking about the legislated mandate. It (specifically, certified mail) is one of the few accepted ways to legally inform someone of a subpoena, etc.

Also, you think that rural folks not being able to send or receive mail would be okay? I hope they don't have any bills to pay.

I'm saying if the USPS would have started out as a private model it would be in better shape now.

Or should the government take over the phone companies because cell phones don't work at the bottom in the middle of the desert in Nevada. Some poor smuck might decide to live there?

The Communications Act of 1934 stated, in part:

This was in relation to wired telephones, obviously, but, yes, if a service becomes part of the national infrastructure, it should be mandated. The postal service has been that way for years, and health insurance, or some equivalent, has been that way for at least 50 years, probably longer.

So, yes; yes; a thousand times: yes!

What the hell. We’ll just print more money or go deeper in debit. A cell phone in every pot!

If the government ran everything and protected us from ourselves wouldn’t that be wonderful. I think not. Some of the more controlling governments are no more for good reason. Lucky for China they work cheap.

Too bad but greed makes the world go round not love.

We're paying for it now, just backhandedly. This bill should reduce costs and improve coverage. The CBO thinks so. I don't think I've seen any reputable economist say otherwise.

To be clear, I think that cell phones are currently a convenience, not a necessity. This may change in the future; I don't know. I'm not saying that the government needs to mandate universal cell phone coverage; I'm saying that I don't think your analogy is (at least currently) valid. A comparison between the post office, land-line phones, and health coverage would be accurate, and the first two do have universal mandates.

Lucky for China they have government health care too. They have the greatest surplus per GDP of any large nation as well hmm.

There truly seem to be no limits to your great plans for improving our society. I ask you, is there anything that a strong, centrally-planned government (ruled by the enlightened leaders of your personal choice) can't improve for us? Thank god we stupid rabble have these great leaders to protect us from ourselves!

Everything I read on here about all the great things the government can do to us and for us reminds me of the great Simpson's episode when Homer is garbage commisioner.

Yes, the garbage man can!

Stu

Hey, didn't the government subsidize that infrastructure?

Specifically, what is it that makes you think the USPS is in such bad shape? That they ran a 4% deficit last year? I bet many if not most of the "private model" companies in the country wish that their deficits were only 4%.

Would you be happier if the USPS followed your private model scenario, so you could pay $52.71 to mail a package instead of $4.85?

tanstaafl.

Untrue. This particular tracking was after the fact only because I didn't print it until after the package had arrived. Before that, I was able to see each stage of the delivery as it happened. The post office even sent me an email each time new tracking information arrived. I got an email when I printed my Click'n'Ship label. I got an email when it went into the system in Texas. I got another email when it arrived in Anchorage, and another when it got to Fairbanks. The final email was when it was actually delivered, and yes, there was a four hour delay between the actual time of delivery and when I received the email notification. Boo-Hoo. How could the tracking possibly have been better? Normally I wouldn't request the email notification, but I wanted to see how it worked. Pretty well, if you ask me.

tanstaafl.

Ehhh...not to contribute anything useful to this thread, but package tracking on USPS is the worst. Every single time I order something online and it ships USPS with a "tracking" number, all I get when I go to their site is three-stage tracking. It says when the shipping info is received, when the package is shipped, and when it is delivered. I never have a clue as to where it is. And more often than not, the site doesn't update that the delivery has occurred until the day after.

Other than that, I disagree with the naysayers in this thread. I also can't believe nobody commented on someone comparing human health care with animal health care. That was absurd. Besides, I've known several people who have been buried in medical costs for their pets, so the argument is wrong anyway.

We should probably have a pet health care bill too, afterall it is a right.

Stu

Heh, I certainly wouldn't mind. Pet health insurance is pretty expensive. Too bad my cats are too damn lazy to get a job

The Constitution doesn't grant rights to pets, but it does grant rights to people. Cogent arguments can be made for or against the idea that access to affordable health insurance is one of those rights, but it's not like this idea materialized out of thin air.

In my recent experience, USPS tracking is just as useful as that of UPS and FedEx. In fact, plenty of USPS packages are actually trackable through teh FedEx site since they have a contract in place to offload some deliveries. This is for some 30 packages in the past 6 months between FedEx, USPS and UPS. What you're complaining about with USPS also frequently happens with FedEx or UPS. The reason you may sometimes notice more information for FedEx is because there are usually more hops along the way, because a lot of packages get re-routed to their Memphis hub, adding extraneous and totally useless tracking information to the list.

Anyway, the tracking information for all carriers differs depending on what service standard/option is picked. And IMO, the service options with FedEx or UPS are just as confusing, if not moreso than any with USPS or Canada Post.

OK, here is the final tracking list, from shipping info to delivery.

1) Shipping info received
2) Package received by USPS 3/18/2010 at 3:52 in Laredo, Tx
3) Package sorted 3/20/2010 at 3:37 pm in Anchorage, AK
4) Package arrived 3/22/2010 at 4:06 am in Fairbanks, AK
5) Package delivered to recipient 3/22/2010 at 8:37 am in Fairbanks, AK

At any time in the process I could have spent 26 seconds to find out the exact current progress, but did not need to do so because I received emails at each step along the way. (I won't check that box again, though, it is distracting to have my mailbox loaded up with all those messages!)

How much more information do you need or would even be useful? I can't imagine that knowing the VIN # of the vehicle carrying the package, or the shoe size of the driver would be helpful. You know when and where the package entered the system, when it arrived at [the only] two intermediate stops on the way, and when it was delivered. I was notified by email four hours after it was in the hands of the recipient. Am I missing something here?

USPS provides service comparable (or superior to) the competition at a fraction (less than 1/10th in this case) of the cost, yet people just take it for granted that because it is associated with the Government it is no good.

I confess I have difficulty understanding this attitude.

tanstaafl.

Bruno, out of curiosity, are you and Doug speaking from the experience of sending packages, or receiving them?

All I know is, with the least expensive shipping methods available to me between USPS, FedEx, and UPS after ordering from an online store, I have never once had USPS give me any tracking information that was at all useful. It essentially just tells me that it's delivered, which, hopefully, I already know. You may have different experiences, and Bruno, maybe you're seeing something different because you're in Canada using USPS, but I'm telling you the facts of what I've seen. It's not "sometimes," it's every single friggin' time.

My apologies, Bitt for veering off-topic...

*edit*

I'm assuming you're aiming this at several people, but I wanted to be clear that this is not AT ALL why I dislike USPS. I dislike them because I think their service is worse.

Although, frankly, my main dislike of them is for receiving packages, which is what I do far more often. With the ability to send Amazon orders anywhere I want, I just don't send any packages anymore. If I did, I'd probably use USPS.

The fact remains, though, that with EVERY SINGLE THING I've ever ordered online, when it shipped USPS the tracking is non-existant.

Is your assumption that packages sent through USPS are flown directly to their destination?


While I will agree that that additional travel is "extraneous and totally useless", when it happens, the information is not. If the information indicates where the package is, it is not useless information, even if it's useless for the package to be there.

Thanks, Bitt. I felt bad about helping to take that thread off-off-topic.

I have a handful packages on the way right now and a few more that were delivered over the past week. All originating in the US with a destination in the US (my US address).

1x FedEx Ground
3x USPS
5x UPS

My comments stand regarding these recent items. It has nothing to do with me being in Canada. The FedEx item in this case didn't go to Memphis.

Much of the information from FedEx and UPS is useless, regardless of where the package actually is. That's because the information isn't necessarily about the package, but about the paperwork. You can get a lot of apparent detail sometimes but it is not an indication of where you package is. I've seen this far too many times with FedEx. A ton of tracking activity and at the end, only TWO line items were actually about the package. The other 5-10 were about the paperwork or electronic data associated with the package.

The most useful piece of tracking information is the resting location when a package is delayed. For premium service from UPS and FedEx you will know when the package is scheduled for delivery, so unless you also like to watch paint dry, you may as well not sit there watching the tracking information. If the package doesn't show up, that's a whole other story. And like FedEx and UPS, you better believe that I've always seen timely updates with the USPS tracking info.

If you want to talk about useless tracking info, then that's Canada Post Expedited service. I send out a few thousand packages a year, and the only package losses have been expedited tracked service within Canada. They had no clue where the items went. No record of anyone signing for them, no record of delivery. Just vanished. Even those that are delivered don't get listed as such often for days.

With USPS I can see right away when something has been delivered and who has signed for it. Someone else signs at my US address and the update happens very quickly.

Anyway, I think this was brought up as a comparison to healthcare because someone thought a private for-profit organization could do it better. To that I say bullshit. You'd be paying crazy rates just like with FedEx and UPS. The only way not to pay crazy rates with them is through volume. Then the rates can be ridiculously cheap by comparison.

When ordering US to US I'm indifferent about the carrier as long as the price is right. When doing cross-border I prefer USPS by a long shot for most items. FedEx comes in second and UPS is an absolute never.

USPS Priority mail is shipped via commercial airline flights. If you don't believe me watch all the packages go into the plain with Priority mail labels on them next time you fly. So they are actually shipped much faster than commercial companies that insist on sending everything through a hub. Also I think people are missing something the USPS does not offer tracking they offer Delivery Confirmation Nowhere do they state that the Delivery Confirmation numbers is tracking. The only time that number is updated is when it goes through a PO sort facility or gets delivered. Some people may live in areas where the packages never go through sort facilities they just get off the plane and go straight to your door.

You got lucky or maybe I am unlucky I never get good tracking info from USPS. I have had a package failed to be delivered, they leave no notice, website still says it's someplace besides where I am. Package ends up being at the local post office.

The only thing I get now is junk mail and letters from the government (like the thing telling me I have to pay property taxes I just got). All my bills are electronic. I go to a lot of businesses and when I see them have to send an important package they use UPS or Fedex. USPS is pretty much for stuff I don't need.

You know, I really should have thought through my entire order history. I've had annoyances with all the carriers.

Today, for instance. We ordered a Kindle for my wife on Saturday. We have Amazon Prime, so we chose 1-day shipping. Of course we didn't expect it to come on Monday, but I think we have a reasonable expectation for it to arrive on Tuesday.

Well, I completely rearranged my schedule to be home all day today (I didn't want it sitting outside - we live in a condo complex). At 5pm my wife checked her tracking status, and it stated that a delivery attempt was made at 2pm. BULL***T!! There have been no tags placed on my door today, and I would have heard them knock on the door. ARGH!

So yeah, we'll be asking Amazon to refund our shipping. Fortunately they're usually very good about that.

ps- my apologies, this has almost nothing to do with the topic at hand. I just had to rant...

On the other hand, I've occasionally gotten UPS-delivered Amazon Prime packages on Saturdays, without even paying for overnight, much less Saturday delivery. UPS is just weird.

I cannot believe that I forgot to mention that this was shipped out via FedEx. Blame where blame is due!

I haven't had any issues when Prime items were sent UPS. It's usually very good.

One thing puzzles me about Prime, though. In the last 6 months or so they added an even more expedited option to have the package delivered same day!. The only problem is that you have to be pretty near an Amazon warehouse. The thing that bugs me is that my mom gets it with her account (which is though my Prime account), but my wife and I don't, even though we only live about 9 miles from her, and just about the same distance from DC. I've emailed Amazon about it, and they responded that they'd look into it, but I didn't hear anything further. Oh well, it's not the end of the world.

Occasionally I feel bad about my need for instant gratification

If anyone is rocking Mac OS or iPhone/iPod, take a look at Delivery Status. A very nice program (a widget in Mac OS) to track packages from pretty much every carrier as well as some shops like Amazon without having to specify the carrier.

You can name each delivery you're tracking and also set a number of options including how often to update the status. You can also sync the details with the developer's site which then allows you to pull back the info onto your other devices.

I've known about it for a long time, but just started using it today mostly because of the discussion we've had here. Very handy when you have a handful of things arriving. Especially if they're not arriving at your current location - I have to know when to drive down to my US mailbox to pick up a batch of stuff for instance.

Yeah, I've looked for a good one for Android before and didn't find a decent app. It's been a long while though, so I'll check again...

Here's a timely comparison of data provided on the status pages for both UPS and USPS, obtained just a minute ago, for packages sent out two days ago.

UPS Package:


USPS Package:


The UPS' three lines of details are all at the same facility. While the USPS information isn't tabular, it does provide more usable/useful detail in this case. To be fair, the UPS package does include an expected delivery date (not shown) while the USPS one doesn't. I can guestimate it will be delivered tomorrow however, because the package is already sitting at the local facility.

That's wonderful for you. However, you seem to be missing the point. I have never once seen that information for a package that was shipped to me via USPS. I have not doubted that you see it, but I have not.

As for the UPS information, see Bitt's comment above. Who cares if there's extraneous information? It's better than no information, which as I keep repeating I never get from USPS.

Sorry, I just don't know what to tell you. I don't know what's different about the shipments I receive, but there must be something.

Question: which shipping level is that USPS shipment? How much did it cost to ship that? How about the UPS package?

The USPS is "Priority Mail" - only some products feature this type of confirmation.

The UPS is Ground service. I have no idea how much the actual costs are because they're purchases which no doubt had handling factored into their shipping prices - or the shipping was free, I can't actually remember right now which order cost how much.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you see anything different than what you've mentioned. Just trying to show you that USPS does offer some information and it can be quite useful.

I'm expecting a package today that I ordered with USPS shipping, and it has actually had useful tracking info throughout the process. And it's "only" first-class mail (albeit with Delivery Confirmation).


And that data was actually updated in more-or-less real time.

Maybe someone is actually working on improving the system.