> What about peopl like me that bought theres on Ebay

Interesting point. I don't know, but I'll make sure the issue is discussed before we finalise any offers.

Rob

Well, as a (ex :-) british colony here in new zealand we drive on the left side of the road with RHD vehicles (fortuantly most of our cars come from japan nowdays so the indication and washer controls are on the correct side unlike the poor british).

I started out driving a Mini and now drive a Honda Civic - both have the controls the logical way round for a RHD car given that the former was designed before British car manufacturers disappeared and the latter was made in Japan. The Civic radio has its volume knob on the left but this may just be because it is a European model.

How else can you drive round a roundabout, change gear and flick the indicators at the same time? Hmm, I suppose those of you in the US don't need to do the first two so it doesn't matter. :-)

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Hehehe, I must laugh, when are you Brits. going to drive on the right side???
(Just kidding) All of Europe, and the US do drive on the right side.
Except for the Aussies, and I guess, some British colonies like india. Hehehe.

An Empeg in Dr.Bombay's 3wheeled motorcycle.hehehe

Sorry for being a bit sarcastic, but I find this left/right this abit amusing!!

TommyE

It would be great to have a Mark II Tuner which was a combination tuner and cassette player. I would scrap my factory installed tuner/cassette if I had an Empeg cooperative alternative that included a cassette. I know that cassettes are a retro technology at this point but mp3 audio books (GRIN) aren't that available yet.

Traci

I'm not going to ask you to offer voice control for the Mark I, but it would be great to have a high quality voice control product for my Linux server. Would you consider offering the voice control product to the broader Linux world?

Traci

hehe, i'd be interested in seeing actual global market share for LHD vs RHD. Until my recent trip to france i thought most of europe was RHD and the americans were the only freaks driving on the LHD.
Still, Britian and the commonwealth japan, korea and the rest of asia vs. America and europe, sounds pretty even to me.

Still, Britian and the commonwealth japan, korea and the rest of asia vs. America and europe, sounds pretty even to me.

The market share for LHD is far greater than for RHD. For a start the whole British Commonwealth doesn't drive on the left (e.g. Canada). Also, the car market in the US dwarfs that of Europe. I believe that the UK and Eire are the only countries in Europe to currently drive on the left although Sweden and possibly some others went through an overnight switch in the sixties.

My mind seems over-conditioned to driving on the left. I got thoroughly confused even as a passenger on our recent trip to Las Vegas for Comdex.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I love this kind of speak, it has to bring a smile to your face!

The question I have is, why does the Mk1 have its buttons on the left side?
Was the knob changed to the right because of componentry or for interface?

Just a light hearted question.

Any input Hugo,Rob or should I say output!

Will wait for Mk2 no matter what,
Mike

The voice control isn't ours: it's licenced. It's also more along the lines of appliance control than something like ViaVoice or DragonDictate - great for non-perfect environments, but not really usable for controlling a linux box.

Hugo

The Mk.1 has the buttons on the left because, errr, well it just happened that way! Maybe Hugo & Patrick did some research, I don't know, but that's how it was :-)

The Mk.2 still has the buttons on the left and the rotary control on the right because we want the panels to be compatible (put a blanking gromet in the hole for the rotary switch and you have a panel suitable for a Mk.1 - useful if people want to change colour in the future).

Rob

The question I have is, why does the Mk1 have its buttons on the left side?

The buttons are on the left for a reason, which is that the vacuum neck of the VFD panel, used in manufacturing, is on the
bottom right. To get the buttons in the required diamond pattern, without risk of fouling the neck during assembly, which
could break the seal and therefore ruin the VFD, we had no choice but to put the buttons on the left. We couldn't put the
display on the PCB the other way up, because the 60V PSU components had to be as close to the top of the case as
possible to allow the main board to fit.

Was the knob changed to the right because of componentry or for interface?

The rotary control is on the right as a result of the buttons being on the left. That was the only place it would
fit!

We aren't going to make a reversed design display board for the American market, because this would increase
expense enormously. We'd have to mirror the PCB layout, flip the display upside down (see above for the problems
this would cause), rewrite the software to scan the display backwards and upside down (admittedly this is the
easiest part), and in general do a lot of fiddling around. Not to mention stocking two different PCBs, making them
in different quantities, needing reversed plasticwork, etc, etc.

To be honest, having tried operating the rotary control in both a left-hand-seated and right-hand-seated position, it
doesn't actually cause any problems that I can see, or anyone else who's tried it for that matter. Your arm doesn't
obscure the display, unless the empeg is mounted practically on the floor. If it's in a normal dashboard position,
i.e. approximately between the bottom and the middle of the steering wheel in height, plus or minus a few inches,
your arm tends to approach the controls from the side and below, rather than above.

I don't see its position as a major problem, honestly.

Patrick

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

As has been said elsewhere, adding the new display board is possible. The ethernet isn't really doable as an
upgrade, since it's a complex piece of circuitry that has a LOT of interfacing requirements to the rest of the
main board hardware. In theory it might be possible to design a small board that would connect to the IDE
bus and give 10baseT, but the cost would be so high I don't see it happening, unless someone out there
wants to do one, or I get really really bored and win the lottery at the same time!

The RAM upgrade is straightforward enough to do, if you happen to be able to hand-solder fine pitch
SMD components and have the parts available. It also requires new flash code to enable the new chips.
It is just possible I might offer this as a service (not official empeg policy, note), at some point, when
I'm not so busy designing new empeg hardware, but it wouldn't be stunningly cheap. I'd have to sort out
the warranty implications with Hugo, and source the correct RAM in small quantities, which is
surprisingly difficult to do, but it might happen if enough people need it.

If you would be interested in this, email me at pca@empeg.com, so I can gauge demand.

Patrick.

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

Well, after reading nearly 100 messages on the new unit, I must say I am impressed. Just a few questions.

Nobody asks about cost.. with these new features I assume price will go up, but how much?

And somewhere I read that there will only be one ide controller.. does this mean no more adding hard drives as in the mark1 units? If so, is it possible to replace the HD it will ship with with a larger one by ourselves?

And somewhere I read that there will only be one ide controller.. does this mean no more adding hard drives
as in the mark1 units?

No. The mk1 units had two IDE channels, and the drives were both set up as masters, one on each. The mk2
units, mainly for space reasons, only have one channel, but two drives can still be used as master/slave. It just
requires the correct cable.

Patrick.

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

... and Japan, of course.

IT is possible to replace the HD in the unit with your own one.
You just need to setup the partitions correctly before installing a kernel.upgrade file containing all the player & kernel files.

So how do you set up the partitions??

TommyE

i know that every one will hate me for this but...
is the radio in the empeg or is it going to be a sepret box?....
i read throught the messages but i cant find were it says and when dose the mk2 come out there are too many diffent dates and i was woundering if any one really knew

It will be in a seperate box, with the intention of a DAB tuner being an option at a later date...

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

Maybe my mark-I isn't obsolete but I feel like I'm
missing out on some critical features. Ethernet? A
radio that works? Improved grounding? Who cares
about the other features? I want those and not
being able to get them sounds like I'm being
penalized by buying early.

I have to be a bit skeptical that mark-I customers will
get the same support since I'm not overly thrilled
with the support so far. I waited a long time for
Linux and NT support. I'm still waiting for an open
source loader for Linux. My radio is useless. I can't
use the USB port so the ethernet connection is really
attractive to me. My hard drive died and had to be
replaced. I upgraded to 8c, uploads kept crashing,
and now I can't even get emplode to connect to the
player. I corresponded with one of your guys and
sent some debug output to him but haven't heard
anything aside from my data was useful for a bug
hunt.

Beta software is one thing. That was understood
when I bought my player but beta-fucking-hardware
is another deal entirely.

I'm sorry for griping. My player is pretty cool but not
all is rosy here and I would really like it if there was
some sort of trade-in policy when the new units are
available.

yours, Dean

I understand your complaints. However, look at the bright side. When the Mark2's come out, you can buy one at a discount (they said that the Mark1 owners would get a discount), then you can sell your existing Mark1 on Ebay or something. Depending on how big of a discount it's going to be, you might even be able to make a profit.

Personally I think that Empeg has every reason to offer their early adopters a very attractive discount. Think about it: They're planning on being able to produce 1000 units a month starting next March. In any given month, they'll build several times as many Mark2's as there were total Mark1's. So even if they offered a really huge discount to the Mark1 owners, it would be a very small discount when compared to their total revenues. Especially when you consider the fact that only some of the current owners would take advantage of the discount.

Now, as far as your specific complaints in your post, I have some answers to them. You said you haven't been happy with Empeg's customer service so far. Since I've had a completely different experience (and I've read posts from others who have as well), I have to believe that you're the exception, not the rule.

I feel like I'm missing out on some critical features. Ethernet?

I don't see how Ethernet is a critical feature. The USB port works fine. The Empeg is designed to be a consumer product, and at the moment, home computers come with USB ports by default, and not with ethernet ports. Ethernet may seem critical to you, but if you look at what market Empeg is trying to target, it shouldn't be critical to the unit in the long term.


A radio that works? Improved grounding?

Those are very valid concerns. Personally, the radio is not a big deal to me because I only ever listened to the radio when I got bored of the three CDs I had in the car. But I understand how a better radio is important to many people. The grounding issue is a big one as well. So, Empeg is doing the Right Thing, and solving those problems in the Mark2's. You're upset because you're stuck with a Mark1 that doesn't have those new features.

But think about it. It's like any new technology product: There will always be better hardware available next year. Yeah, I get upset when my friends have better toys than me simply because they bought theirs a few months later. But it's not the fault of the manufacturer when this happens. What would you have the manufacturer do? Not release the new version? Allow all the previous customers trade in their obsolete units? Come on, do you think Sony should offer a trade-in program where you can return your used Sony TV for one of their new TV's just because it's better?


I want those and not being able to get them sounds like I'm being penalized by buying early.

I want some of those things, too, but I bought my unit knowing full well that it still had some rough edges. I knew I was going to be an early adopter. As far as I'm concerned, I'm glad I'm listening to MP3s in my car rather than waiting for next March. To me, it's worth it, and I don't feel penalized in any way.


I'm still waiting for an open source loader for Linux.

They have said repeatedly that they fully intend to publish all of the communication specs as soon as the specs have stopped changing. I've been paying attention to what features they've been talking about implementing, and many of them sound like they would require changes to the specs. I think it's right for them to hold off on publishing that stuff until later. Be patient.


I can't use the USB port so the ethernet connection is really attractive to me.

So ethernet is critical to you because you run NT4 and you won't/can't set up a system that will dual-boot Windows 98? Cripes, I've got friends who format their hard disks and reinstall their operating systems about twice a month. And they do it for much more petty things, like trying to get the latest game to run properly. Getting USB to work is not that tough, you just have to be willing to install Windows 98. And if you're one of the unlucky ones who can't get USB working because of a BIOS or hardware problem with your motherboard... well, that's hardly something you can get mad at Empeg for.


My hard drive died and had to be replaced.

Now that's a bummer, but you can't blame Empeg for that. You're complaining about Empeg's support, but I'll bet that Rob did everything he could to expedite that replacement, right? I'm sure they did the Right Thing.


I upgraded to 8c, uploads kept crashing, and now I can't even get emplode to connect to the player.

I had a problem with crashing uploads, and I had a bug where the player wouldn't connect, too. I solved the crashing-uploads problem by doing all my uploads in small batches and running a memory defragmenter after each one. I have a suspicion (unproven at this time) that there might be a memory leak in Emplode or its serial/usb drivers, causing long synch operations to crash. If so, that bug will exist whether you're a mark1 or a mark2 owner. And when they solve that bug, it will be solved for both the mark1 and mark2 owners, as well.

As far as the player not connecting, mine eventually just fixed itself after several synch attempts (on the USB cable). Maybe you just need to wipe the thing and start over with a fresh database? I'm sure Rob can help you with that, once the holidays and CES are over.

In any case, those problems are purely software issues, and as a Mark1 owner, you will continue to get software updates and bug fixes along with the Mark2 owners.


Beta software is one thing. That was understood when I bought my player but beta-fucking-hardware is another deal entirely.

Honestly, the only thing "Beta" about the hardware that I've seen is the floating-ground issue and the weak radio. Everything else about the unit's hardware seems very solid to me.

Perhaps I missed it while reading through the 80-or-so messages dealing with this thread; forgive me if that's the case.

Operating the Mk I while driving at night has proven difficult; the remote is not contoured and, as a result, I opt for the button cluster. I have a preference for button clusters anyway; storage/placement of remotes is always an issue.

When using the button cluster I have to feel around for the buttons in the cluster to use them because I've got no light to direct me. And, for obvious reasons, I don't want to turn on the overhead light and blind myself just to operate the unit.

I'm curious as to whether backlighting the buttons and the rotary knob has been considered for the Mk II. (i.e. Placement of internal lights in such a way that they shine through whatever display colour you've chosen and provide some light AROUND the buttons. I envision a knob that's both backlit AND has a dim light shining through a word on the pushbutton.)

Just a thought...

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

As far as the player not connecting, mine eventually just fixed itself after several synch attempts (on the USB cable). Maybe you just need to wipe the thing and start over with a fresh database?

I don't consider wiping the unit to be a useful way of solving upload/download problems in general and definitely not in this case.

The problem in this particular case is due to failure of the communication between the PC and the empeg-car over the serial cable. Sometimes a request is being sent eight or more times before the unit understands it. There is a maximum retry count of sixteen after which emplode gives up.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I don't consider wiping the unit to be a useful way of solving upload/download problems in general and definitely not in this case.

Of course not. At least, not in a final production unit. But we all realize that Emplode and the Empeg are running beta software at this time, and beta testers have to be prepared for that kind of eventuality. Hopefully not very often, though.


Sometimes a request is being sent eight or more times before the unit understands it. There is a maximum retry count of sixteen after which emplode gives up.

In my case, the reason the unit wasn't responding to the requests was because something had gone wrong with the database in the Empeg. The bootup screen was pausing at a certain line that said something like "Loading music databases". Somehow, the Empeg managed to fix itself and the problem went away. After that, there was no trouble connecting to the unit.

This sort of lighting is hard to achieve without custom moulded buttons - we use off the shelf ones - but as the front panel design isn't yet 100% fixed we're looking at some LEDs around the buttons which should shine through the gaps allowing you to find them more easily.

Hugo

We haven't sold any Beta hardware to clients. The current empeg car player hardware is NOT Beta - I'll confuse the issue the issue and point out that what you currently have is a Mark 4 player and the next public release will be Mark 7.

We test the hardware Beta releases in-house, plus maybe a few local external testers who know exactly what they're getting.

In your post you listed a whole bunch of SOFTWARE problems and then complained about Beta hardware. The only hardware issues you mentioned are the tuner and the hard drive that crashed. You have a point with the tuner, it's not ideal, and in fact it was our original intention to remove it entirely from the next release - at the last minute we came up with the external module idea. The hard drive crashing has nothing to do with our product - we had a small batch of bad drives from Toshiba that died very early in their lives with spin-up problems. We replaced them with a new model and I haven't heard of any of those failing, or for that matter, earlier drives from batches that weren't affected by this manufacturing fault.

With the partial exception of the tuner, the "Mark 2" player is not a bug fix release. It is an update of the current player, with several new features added as a direct consequence of customer suggestions. The "Mark 1" continues to be fully supported because IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PRODUCT - no, really, it is! The vast majority of the codebase is common - any new feature which isn't exclusively related to a new hardware function will apply equally to earlier and later players.

I'm not saying that the Mark 2 isn't a better product - it is. However I'm unimpressed by arguments against progress in order to protect technology investments up until that time. We could have not bothered with the improvements and we would have made just as much money and shipped just as many players - in fact we would have made MORE money because there would have been more "Mark 1" owners willing to upgrade at a later date. Perhaps we shouldn't have made any mention of the updates until the day the new player was released, an event that is still four months away.

I can see where you're coming from, especially as you've been unfortunate in your empeg experience, however from my perspective (influenced as it may be by a residual hangover and prospects of a 19 hour flight tomorrow including 7 hour stop over in Cleveland of all places) I believe we've been responsible - a little unconventional - but fair to our present and future clients.

Rob

A design I worked on a few years back (a telephone dial with opaque buttons) used a transparent, one-piece moulding through which the buttons poked. A limited amount of this "web" moulding was visible around the keys; with careful design to enhance TIR (Total Internal Reflection), a single low-power green LED fed from the phone line (impressive in those days) illuminated a rectangular matrix of some 12 keys plus 4 others a short distance away. The keys remained opaque, but could easily be located in the dark by the peripheral lighting from the TIR web. This is also seen on many other commercial products these days, including Pioneer and Philips car radios.

What about that as a possibility, then? I think I suggested this a few months back in Wish List somewhere if you want to check the thread.

Alternatively, it strikes me that since you are using a perspex front panel, you could use the internal light-carrying capability of the optical cavity within the sheet to illuminate the buttons from the side without affecting the amount of transmitted light through the front panel (going perpendicular to the enclosed TIR path).

I mean, you guys are literally a few hundred metres from the Pilkington glass research centre in Cambridge, and C Uni is a world research centre for optics and light propogation in restricted cavities (optical fibres) - can't you cadge a bit of advice locally?

Although it is rather off the track of your thread (!), here's the successful fix I have used on my radio, which has also sucessfully worked on another Mk1.

I initially made sure that my aerial was properly grounded by removing it, greasing up the bodywork connection points and putting a new, properly soldered connector onto the coax. This may not be necessary for the fix, but I believe actually led to part of my problem.

Looking at the data sheet for the tuner unit indicates it is an extremely sensitive item, and following some advice read on another thread here, I removed my aerial amplifier and reduced the length of my aerial by 50%. Result - clear and precise station tuning, good stereo image, excellent signal strength, faultless RDS operation.

I hope this makes you smile if it works for you

Well said, Rob. Although I think his main complaint is that he feels you should be offering a trade-in policy for the Mark1 owners. Personally, I think such a policy would be unrealistic. You guys aren't even under any obligation to offer an early-adopter's discount on the new units, but you're going to do it anyway. I think that's great.

Perhaps we shouldn't have made any mention of the updates until the day the new player was released, an event that is still four months away.

Brings to mind a Dilbert cartoon... Marketing guy says "I told our clients about all the new features. Now they won't buy the current product because they want the new version instead." Dilbert tells him that the new version won't be ready for another year. Marketing guy realizes that he's just singlehandedly bankrupted the company.

Oh... and what's this "Four Months Away" stuff? I though you said March? :-)

> I understand your complaints. However, look at
> the bright side. When the Mark2's come out, you
> can buy one at a discount (they said that the
> Mark1 owners would get a discount), then you can
> sell your existing Mark1 on Ebay or something.
> Depending on how big of a discount it's going
> to be, you might even be able to make a profit.

Well that's all I want. Some way to get the new
features short of paying full price for a new player.
Ideally they'd take the old one but I can certainly
accept the compromise.

You're right about most of my complaints...but if I
bought electronics from Sony and wanted an upgrade
for the new model I'd be fucked. But they sold something
with a faulty ground and a basically non-functioning
radio you know they'd replace it with the corrected
model.

I hope I can get a discount on a Mark 2 and still sell my
Mark 1 for something.
--

In the meantime all need to do is get emplode to talk to
my player. The player seems happy enough but I do
suspect that the database is corrupted. What's the
easiest way to kill the database? I was hoping that
8d might correct things but starting from scratch may
be quicker.

yours, Dean