Significantly larger than people who just use the regular remote by itself? Um okay

Sony do provide Pronto codes for at least one of their displays.

Most manufacturers provide their IR codes in a document or in a format usable by a remote such as a Pronto. Most will, upon request, provide discrete codes if they exist. You just have to write to them and ask.

The reason I said it was a bad move wasn't because I was specifically talking about the ON/OFF scenario. That's very basic, but there are tons of other possible discrete commands which don't belong on the standard remote. Can you imagine every possible discrete input on a small remote? Some remotes do offer this functionality, but it's one of the reasons people replace stock remotes - button overload.

That site you linked to is an old favorite of mine. You can also get remote codes quite easily for almost anything via Remote Central. But yes, you have to be somewhat of a techy to even consider it. At the same time, a universal remote is somewhat geeky and until the Harmony line, every consumer-level universal was pretty much device oriented with little to no automation. Maybe a couple of marco keys and the ability to punch-through volume and power buttons.

However, the issue isn't that these buttons aren't on OEM remotes. It's all about the remote you're trying to set your customer up with. If the codes aren't already part of the database of that $25 remote then you really need to blame the maker of that remote. It's techy types and geeks that create remotes, so you know they have access to that info. It's why the Harmony, URC and Pronto databases include a TON of discrete commands. Harmony uses them by default if they exist for your device (forget for a moment that their DB is extremely dirty right now )

For most people, on an OEM remote, it's easier to have a single button for ON/OFF. It matches the toggle button usually found on the device itself. One extra button means losing the toggle. That's OK for some remotes. But you can't very well put discrete commands for all discrete functions on an OEM remote, even though they're amazingly useful when putting together an automation solution, including setting up an activity on a universal remote.

My apologies, but I still don't understand (or think I've even heard) your counterargument. Because again, when you say things like this, it makes me think that your proposal is that it's better to have 4 remote controls on a coffee table without a few extra buttons on them than it is to add a few buttons on there with the possibility that more homes will have a single remote on their table.

I suppose I was overstating, and should have said that it would open the possibility that more average consumers could sufficiently program their inexpensive universal remotes. You're probably right that most of those additional people still wouldn't take advantage of it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't give them the option. There's plenty that these sets are capable of that 95% of users will never use (most never even change the picture settings on their HDTVs), but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the option...


Yeah, I came across that when I was trying to find my link. That's a single, minor line of sets from four to five years ago.


I've not seen this myself. Don't get me wrong, I'd like that. I've certainly never seen IR codes included in documentation. Do you have an example of that?


My apologies, I definitely didn't make this clear enough in my early arguments. I don't think there should be a button for every possible discrete code that could be sent to a device. You'd end up with a receiver that had 100 buttons on it. But I remain unconvinced why there shouldn't be discrete on/off. This seems essential to me. So much so that it's one of the top three criteria I set when looking for a new receiver. It was important enough that I wouldn't get one that didn't have it.

Aside from on/off, the only discretes I need to create a decent macro are inputs, and possibly something that will set the receiver's audio to some sort of auto-decode mode.


I tend to think this is a very small number of people. I think if they're going to the trouble of replacing a remote, they're doing it to get a remote that replaces several remotes. That is, unless they're getting one of those Fischer Price-looking things with 15 buttons on it. Otherwise, I haven't seen a programmable remote in the store with fewer buttons than you'd find on most included remote controls. I think the main problem with most receiver-bundled remote controls is simply the poor design of the button layouts. I've seen very few of those remotes that were actually usable...


As much as I love Remote Central, I simply haven't found this to be the case. "Many devices," sure, but I can't tell you how often I run into brick walls trying to find just discrete on/off for a device for a client.

The most common is cable boxes. Frankly, I'm not sure why some of these even need to turn off, but they do, and there's no discrete codes for any of the ones in my area. There are tricks to deal with devices like this, but they're not great or foolproof, and add time to macros.



This is true. Even still, the cheap universals (like this one) aren't fantastic at automation, but typically let you assign a healthy number of macros. But they're perfectly fine for my clients, who couldn't program them without my help and my equipment (at least in the current state of discrete codes ).


What? This doesn't make sense to me. Why would I blame them? Like I said, those codes are hard to get, and the high-end remotes don't have them either. Why else would people put the ones that are available on Remote Central? Sorry, but this is crazy talk...


Again, I simply have not seen this. First, where is this "Pronto database?" I haven't seen one. And I suppose things might have changed since I owned my Harmony remote, but when I had it it didn't find one single discrete code for any of my devices. How would you know if it did, anyway? Isn't the point of the Harmony that you don't think about those things?



You may be right, but I think people can wrap their minds around it. I think there's a great many dense people out there, but I do think they can tell the difference between "on" and "off"

Okay. Having to add extra buttons just to satisfy people who want discrete codes to program into their universal remote via IR learning is not worthwhile when people already dislike massive remotes covered in buttons and you can get discrete codes via third party sites or from the manufacturer in several cases. As Bruno pointed out, there will be many discrete codes necessary also.


Okay. How about Samsung DLP TVs from 2002 to 2009 which have discrete codes provided as a PDF on the website. Or Panasonic Plasma TVs from 2003 to 2007 which comes in Pronto format. Various LG LCD TVs from around 2009. These are all codes direct from the manufacturer. There will be other third party sites such as remotecentral which will have more.


See above.


Thats still 2 for the power, say 5 for your inputs and some number for your audio inputs. 5 extra buttons just for power and inputs alone on your remote since you'd have a minimum of two anyway to handle those features.

First I'd just like to say that there's a huge catch-22 in this whole train of thought. Cheap universal remotes are not meant to be programmed with codes supplied by the manufacturer of the devices you want to control. They're meat to be "set up" with lookup codes that point to a specific code set from their built-in generic database. It's possible to do more with these remotes, but that's not what they're designed nor marketed for. The concept of doing more with these remotes is a fan/user driven one and is relatively small. That's the main reason there's been no traction in supplying codes in such a format that would be readily usable by such remotes. And why, in the past it was harder to com by IR data from manufacturers of the devices.





Denon, Yamaha, Lexicon, DVDO, Philips, and more. I have a lot of documents here with IR codes that have been provided by the manufacturers. Stand-alone documents, addendum and some included as an appendix in a product manual.

Here's the thing though. I spent over 2 years living and breathing remote controls. I've forgotten more about IR and remote controls than most people into remote controls will ever know, never mind your average joe. Seriously.



I'd be happy so long as the device has the codes, regardless of whether they're on the remote. It so happens that my pre-pro doesn't have a dedicated "ON" button on the remote. What you do is click the individual source buttons and that will turn it on to that source. Then there's an OFF button which turns it off. There's also a simple ON command, but that's not on the remote.



See you do get that these things are about device design. It's not necessary for them to be on the OEM remote because that remote isn't the one being set up for automation. Most average people aren't going to do the IR learning dance. BTW, some manufacturers also have dedicated teaching remotes that are basically a huge grid of buttons with all the commands on them, specifically to teach other remote. Crazy eh?




Remote Central remains the authority on remote codes, though in the past years some people have left the community and, I'm sad to say it, some have passed away. But if you're looking for a discrete and you don't want to contact the manufacturer, or they're unresponsive, you should post in the RC forum if it's not something already part of their file area.



Yeah, I agree, they suck.




Because the makers of those remotes are responsible for what's on them. Actually, it's the makers of the database chip they use, and unfortunately many of them simply license the same chip. There are very few providers of IR databases out there. Anyway, these guys can get them the same as you and me, from the manufacturers. It's a LOT of bloody work though and it's why many are lacking. And why at one point I had a better IR database than anyone in the business other than Logitech/Harmony.



DIdn't you say you have a Pronto? There's a database of codes built into the software. It includes some discretes the last I recall. URC's software includes discrete commands in as many of their data sets as they can and they also have discrete-only sets that they update as they can.

[/quote] And I suppose things might have changed since I owned my Harmony remote, but when I had it it didn't find one single discrete code for any of my devices. How would you know if it did, anyway? Isn't the point of the Harmony that you don't think about those things?[/quote]

Most consumers aren't supposed to think about those things. But if you read what I wrote at the top you'd know that didn't apply to me. I am pretty familiar how the Harmony software and remote work inside and out. Not as familiar as I wanted to be, but I knew as much as one could know without sitting over the shoulder of their developers reading the source code. That said, what I mentioned about discretes is in fact more general a fact than that. If you have ever added a device from scratch or reconfigured the power and input commands, or just taken a look at the complete list of commands for one device, you'd see that their software tracks POWER ON and POWER OFF in addition to toggles and when available and so-configured, the discretes will be what's used to power on and off a device. The toggle is the last resort.

What's unfortunate is that with such a large community and lax controls over the DB, there is a ton of duplication in the DB and a lot (a LOT) of mess/crap. Some of the duplicated devices don't include the discretes, some include completely bogus commands, etc.

Anyway, I don't think we'll see any changes in this regard. TV remotes won't come standard with ON and OFF buttons any time soon. SOme will, but they will by far be the exceptions.