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#351799 - 26/04/2012 03:47 electric imp
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
http://www.electricimp.com/jobs/

I can't tell you what it is yet, but my new company is hiring... any leads appreciated and yes you will most likely all want one smile

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#351800 - 26/04/2012 04:00 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
OK, can we pre-order? smile

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#351802 - 26/04/2012 05:58 Re: electric imp [Re: julf]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I'll have 2 then please smile

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#351803 - 26/04/2012 07:38 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
I thought he'd electrified one of these but whatever it is I'll have one too.

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#351804 - 26/04/2012 08:33 Re: electric imp [Re: tahir]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
I think we should plan a meet already. Who's hosting?
_________________________
Matt

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#351805 - 26/04/2012 09:19 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
Originally Posted By: Cris
I'll have 2 then please smile


I'm thinking you'll only need one...

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#351806 - 26/04/2012 09:35 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Need a Unix admin? Can I work remotely?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#351811 - 26/04/2012 11:52 Re: electric imp [Re: tahir]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Originally Posted By: tahir
I thought he'd electrified one of these but whatever it is I'll have one too.


Now that would be awesome.
_________________________

Matt

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#351812 - 26/04/2012 11:57 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
I'm just curious why the custodians of the electricimp.com domain live next door to the Microsoft campus in Bellevue. smile

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#351817 - 26/04/2012 16:03 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: Cris
I'll have 2 then please smile


You'll want *at least* two. I wouldn't be surprised if people on the BBS have at least 5 each, and no I'm still not telling you what they are! smile

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#351818 - 26/04/2012 16:04 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: mlord
I'm just curious why the custodians of the electricimp.com domain live next door to the Microsoft campus in Bellevue. smile


Is that where eNom are from? Oh dear, that's unfortunate. I do hope they don't use next-door's servers!

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#351823 - 26/04/2012 18:25 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: altman
I'm still not telling you what they are! smile

I'm okay with that, if you're okay with me not telling you how many I'm ordering. smile

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#351824 - 26/04/2012 18:25 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Can I work remotely?

+1

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#351825 - 26/04/2012 19:03 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: altman
Originally Posted By: Cris
I'll have 2 then please smile


You'll want *at least* two. I wouldn't be surprised if people on the BBS have at least 5 each, and no I'm still not telling you what they are! smile

You'll have to let us know how much they are so we know if we need to start saving up for 5 or if we can just search the sofa for change.

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#351827 - 26/04/2012 20:31 Re: electric imp [Re: Tim]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I've already got one, and my wife says it's a handful. Zing.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#351829 - 26/04/2012 22:19 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I've already got one, and my wife says it's a handful. Zing.

I don't think Hugo's going to be selling children.

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#351834 - 27/04/2012 06:26 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: altman
You'll want *at least* two. I wouldn't be surprised if people on the BBS have at least 5 each, and no I'm still not telling you what they are! smile


Well, if most people are going to need 5 maybe I should budget for at least 10 ???

I certainly hope the beta program is going to be a whole bag of empeg awesomeness !!!

smile

Cheers

Cris

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#351835 - 27/04/2012 08:44 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Am I going to want one for each room in my house, or just the main living areas?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#351836 - 27/04/2012 10:00 Re: electric imp [Re: JeffS]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Originally Posted By: JeffS
Am I going to want one for each room in my house, or just the main living areas?


Mine is going in the garage.

I'll wait to get the other four once the 2.0 version comes out and 1.0's are on sale.

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#351837 - 27/04/2012 10:26 Re: electric imp [Re: Redrum]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Redrum
Originally Posted By: JeffS
Am I going to want one for each room in my house, or just the main living areas?

Mine is going in the garage.

I'll wait to get the other four once the 2.0 version comes out and 1.0's are on sale.

That may be a good plan, but you know there's going to be debate over the fascia.
_________________________
Matt

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#351839 - 27/04/2012 10:43 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: altman
and no I'm still not telling you what they are!

*grabs popcorn*

*leans back into chair*

Peter

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#351840 - 27/04/2012 11:41 Re: electric imp [Re: peter]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh

you tease
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#351871 - 28/04/2012 04:01 Re: electric imp [Re: peter]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: peter
Originally Posted By: altman
and no I'm still not telling you what they are!

*grabs popcorn*

*leans back into chair*


You think I should mention that they're made with lasers?

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#351872 - 28/04/2012 10:23 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Are sharks also involved? smile

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#351881 - 29/04/2012 07:32 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
Is a dilithium crystal involved?

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#351892 - 30/04/2012 10:01 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Offensive home security system?

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#351893 - 30/04/2012 10:20 Re: electric imp [Re: Tim]
tahir
pooh-bah

Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
"Fuck off you thieving bastard" ?

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#351900 - 30/04/2012 13:24 Re: electric imp [Re: peter]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
smile

You may well want quite a few...

wink

pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#351903 - 30/04/2012 16:14 Re: electric imp [Re: pca]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I hoping it will be as good as this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6EOvYZ93o4

smile

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#351904 - 30/04/2012 17:30 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
Better smile
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#351905 - 30/04/2012 17:55 Re: electric imp [Re: pca]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Tracking device. That's my guess.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#351941 - 01/05/2012 19:50 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
Wired has leaked it frown

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#352095 - 11/05/2012 12:43 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Will u please ship to EU since day 1? smile
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#352101 - 12/05/2012 00:04 Re: electric imp [Re: Taym]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
The clamp itself isn’t strong enough to cause any pain, and the dorsal fin is actually not very sensitive due to it being composed primarily of cartilage.


B.S. Ears are primarily cartilage, I never liked it when mine was used to get my attention.
_________________________
Glenn

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#352108 - 14/05/2012 03:54 Re: electric imp [Re: Taym]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: taym
Will u please ship to EU since day 1? smile


Probably not... but it will be CE approved. EU might take a little time to get sorted out.

Not long now!

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#352181 - 16/05/2012 15:26 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
It seems an announcement has been made.

I was guessing home automation, and I wasn't far off.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#352182 - 16/05/2012 15:26 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
The wraps are off..

http://www.electricimp.com/

http://gizmodo.com/electric-imp/

http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/16/electric-imp/

It's a fabulous idea - the demos are very impressive. I'm already working on a couple of geek projects involving them. Hugo will hit the big time with this one (to make up for that silly phone thing he worked on).

Rob

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#352183 - 16/05/2012 16:11 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Spectactular. Hits the same nerve as things like the Arduino, from the quick look at it, but even more awesome. Really interested in getting into this. Tweeted this to all my hacker/maker friends just now. Awesome.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#352185 - 16/05/2012 16:42 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Congrats to both Hugo and Peter for the announcement today, looks like this could be really useful and a lot of fun to tinker with.

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#352188 - 16/05/2012 17:09 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
So now we are just waiting for European availability.

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#352191 - 16/05/2012 18:14 Re: electric imp [Re: julf]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
....well, and US availability. Not until the end of June...

They will be CE approved from the start, but until we spin up some european servers, imps will be a little laggy in the EU smile

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#352192 - 16/05/2012 18:20 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
If they lag too badly my cats are going to bump their heads. Won't somebody please think of the kitties?

Rob

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#352194 - 16/05/2012 18:23 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
So how long before this becomes the unofficial imp BBS? Might actually become relevant again. smile
_________________________
~ John

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#352195 - 16/05/2012 18:24 Re: electric imp [Re: JBjorgen]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
And how long before someone makes an imp-eg to control and possibly update their player?
_________________________
~ John

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#352196 - 16/05/2012 18:28 Re: electric imp [Re: JBjorgen]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Can't wait to replace the x10 I have with this stuff!!! Looks great!

Can already think of lots of uses, I hope it gets adopted and built into things quickly.

What is the prize for the first person to fit an imp into an empeg ???

smile

Cheers

Cris

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#352198 - 16/05/2012 18:33 Re: electric imp [Re: JBjorgen]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Wow! So excited about this. I love home automation, and nobody has even done lighting correctly yet. I really look forward to seeing what becomes of this.
_________________________
Matt

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#352199 - 16/05/2012 19:02 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Cheap, simple WiFi connectivity.. something I've been wanting for eons! Though not too sure about the monthly fee thing.

Cheers

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#352200 - 16/05/2012 19:13 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Mmm.. USA-centric "sign up" page: doesn't accept postal codes from outside the USA.

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#352201 - 16/05/2012 19:22 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Heh.. looks like I'll have to beg one of my pals who has an iPhone to let me use it for a few seconds to configure the EI cards for our Wifi! smile

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#352205 - 16/05/2012 20:56 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: mlord
Cheap, simple WiFi connectivity.. something I've been wanting for eons! Though not too sure about the monthly fee thing.

Yeah... me, neither. Can we run these things without "the cloud"?

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#352207 - 16/05/2012 21:18 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
$25 per imp card plus the cost of imp-ized devices to hold them. I'm trying to comprehend the cost of doing every light switch in the house. It would get pricey. Consider what I've done now, the $40 "solar timer" switches I put into two sockets to control lights that I want to turn on automatically at night. What would an imp-ready light switch cost, such that I could program it to behave equivalently?

The other place in my house I'd really want an imp-ready thing would be my outdoor irrigation controller. When they installed it, I asked about a WiFi-ready model and the guy quoted me an astronomic price. No thanks. Vanilla model it is, for now.

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#352209 - 16/05/2012 22:06 Re: electric imp [Re: DWallach]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah, I'd imagine the price point would have to fall quite a bit for it to be cost-effective in light switch type applications. Seems like medium to large appliances and hobbyist projects would be the initial market.

I'd be interested to see what the tech inside the card looks like as compared to, say, the Eye-Fi, which seems to do the same basic thing (albeit for a different purpose.) The Eye-fi developers often mention limited hardware capability on the SD as a limiting factor in supporting new features.

I'd also echo the earlier comments about the questionable decision to assess a monthly fee. Why not just build the price into the cost of the device instead? As others alluded to, it would definitely be nice to see an option to allow people to run a server at home instead of requiring connectivity to a cloud service. Maybe those who had the knowledge to stand up their own server could use it without paying the subscription fee?
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#352210 - 16/05/2012 22:34 Re: electric imp [Re: tonyc]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Hugo: how hard would it be to connect this thing to the ide bus on the empeg? They already make IDE to SD adapters (like this one). I'm assuming your card, while borrowing the form factor, is significantly different in the way it operates. Could one reasonably expect to use one of these to add wifi to the empeg?
_________________________
~ John

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#352211 - 16/05/2012 23:25 Re: electric imp [Re: tonyc]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: tonyc
I'd be interested to see what the tech inside the card looks like as compared to, say, the Eye-Fi, which seems to do the same basic thing (albeit for a different purpose.) The Eye-fi developers often mention limited hardware capability on the SD as a limiting factor in supporting new features.


The same doesn't really apply; Eye-Fi has a huge NAND chip in there that we don't have to fit in ours - our antenna is also waaaay bigger. The hardware is obviously limited, but not *that* limited.

Originally Posted By: tonyc
I'd also echo the earlier comments about the questionable decision to assess a monthly fee. Why not just build the price into the cost of the device instead? As others alluded to, it would definitely be nice to see an option to allow people to run a server at home instead of requiring connectivity to a cloud service. Maybe those who had the knowledge to stand up their own server could use it without paying the subscription fee?


It doesn't really work like that. One reason is because card firmware is not something users will always have access to - a washing machine vendor isn't likely to open their code and so it needs to stay private. If people ran their own servers then they'd need the entire code database for every vendor in order to make things work seamlessly.

Subscription is for up to 20 cards in our current model for the same price - it's not exactly bad value. It's possible we'll offer cards with included subscription, but they'd obviously be more expensive.

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#352213 - 16/05/2012 23:27 Re: electric imp [Re: JBjorgen]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
Hugo: how hard would it be to connect this thing to the ide bus on the empeg? They already make IDE to SD adapters (like this one). I'm assuming your card, while borrowing the form factor, is significantly different in the way it operates. Could one reasonably expect to use one of these to add wifi to the empeg?


That wouldn't work I'm afraid. You *could* use an imp for a serial bridge, but maybe that's not really what you were looking for in terms of wifi performance smile

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#352214 - 16/05/2012 23:28 Re: electric imp [Re: DWallach]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: DWallach
$25 per imp card plus the cost of imp-ized devices to hold them. I'm trying to comprehend the cost of doing every light switch in the house. It would get pricey. Consider what I've done now, the $40 "solar timer" switches I put into two sockets to control lights that I want to turn on automatically at night. What would an imp-ready light switch cost, such that I could program it to behave equivalently?


One per switch could get pricey, one per room on a new build is much more plausible though smile

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#352215 - 16/05/2012 23:45 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Originally Posted By: mlord
Cheap, simple WiFi connectivity.. something I've been wanting for eons! Though not too sure about the monthly fee thing.

Cheers


I agree there are getting to be too many things with a small monthly fee.
_________________________

Matt

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#352216 - 17/05/2012 00:20 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
Eye-Fi has a huge NAND chip in there


Relatively speaking. smile

Quote:
It doesn't really work like that. One reason is because card firmware is not something users will always have access to - a washing machine vendor isn't likely to open their code and so it needs to stay private. If people ran their own servers then they'd need the entire code database for every vendor in order to make things work seamlessly.


Fair enough. Maybe you could offer a less fully-featured server with more limited functionality (i.e. proprietary bits removed) for hobbyists to use, though?

Good to hear you're at least somewhat receptive to the idea of prepaid activation though. Seems like a win-win to me, you guys get cash up front and we don't have to worry about yet another subscription to manage.

I suppose the blog is the place to stay tuned for further announcements about manufacturers you're partnering with, etc.? Or is there some social media channel you're using that would be more up to date than that?
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#352217 - 17/05/2012 00:59 Re: electric imp [Re: tonyc]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
I'm interested to see where this will go, ie the uses people and manufactures will come up with for this low cost internet connectivity, and whether I'd find value in these products. I don't need a bird feeder that tweets, or a washing machine that turns on during lower rates - though I understand the appeal to some. But I know others can imagine more wilder and useful things that could be done, and I'm sure some of those might open my wallet.

In the mean time can I have some yummie imp cupcakes?


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#352218 - 17/05/2012 01:05 Re: electric imp [Re: DWallach]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: DWallach
$25 per imp card plus the cost of imp-ized devices to hold them. I'm trying to comprehend the cost of doing every light switch in the house. It would get pricey. Consider what I've done now, the $40 "solar timer" switches I put into two sockets to control lights that I want to turn on automatically at night. What would an imp-ready light switch cost, such that I could program it to behave equivalently?

If you don't count X10 products (because they're crap), then it seems the price might match current home automation levels. A typical Z-Wave light switch costs $50, so if the switch its self costs around $25 plus the EI, that would be about equivalent. Plus, you'd get far more than just a solar timer if this behaves the way I would assume. You would be able to set dimming levels and scenes, and control them remotely instead of just by the time.

Plus, this cloud-based service has the potential to make the programming and control of a light system much easier. Z-Wave is great, but if I ever need to change anything it's a nightmare. I can't just sit at a computer and fiddle with things, it takes a great deal of time and annoyance. The one area where Z-Wave has an advantage is that instead of WiFi, it uses its own proprietary mesh network. It's annoying and means you can't join it to a normal computer network, but it does create a rock-solid network with no range problems. Still, I'd trade that for better control any day.

ps- I should note that I didn't buy my Z-Wave products at that $50 level. I swooped into Radio Shack during a fire sale and bought up the stock from several stores AND a ton of stuff from their website. It was still expensive as hell, but less than half what it would be otherwise laugh

pps- just signed up for the newsletter. Mailchimp is great, BTW.


Edited by Dignan (17/05/2012 01:06)
_________________________
Matt

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#352219 - 17/05/2012 01:51 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
The problem is with the device being nothing but a (very tiny) doorstop when ElectricImp eventually goes bust (1-10 years from now). Imagine a whole home automation system based on it.. now needing replacement.

Or not necessarily "going bust", but simply "losing interest" or "deprecating the product."

Ain't gonna fly, at least not with anyone who thinks ahead.

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#352221 - 17/05/2012 03:19 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
I have to say I don't really get it. I mean, the geek in me thinks that this is very cool, but I'm struggling to see what the market is.

I'm imagining this is a technology that would be licensed to OEM manufacturers, like the washing machine example, but I'm not exactly sure that embedded connectivity is the long pole in the tent for these things. I certainly don't see a large market of enthusiasts who will connect them to their own franken-devices and program them, etc. I am probably ignorant and missing it, but I don't understand what problem this solves. If I am going to design a machine of some kind that has the socket for an imp, along with the logic and hardware to use it meaningfully, then why don't I just put my own wifi chip and antenna on the device? Sticking one of these into a camera won't connect the camera to the internet unless the camera has software to use it, right? Or am I wrong? Is that the point? I don't understand.

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#352222 - 17/05/2012 03:46 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: mlord
The problem is with the device being nothing but a (very tiny) doorstop when ElectricImp eventually goes bust (1-10 years from now). Imagine a whole home automation system based on it.. now needing replacement.

Or not necessarily "going bust", but simply "losing interest" or "deprecating the product."

Ain't gonna fly, at least not with anyone who thinks ahead.


Of course, it could go very well... smile

I do see what you mean, but on the other hand any local server that a normal person might put in will likely also suffer from bit rot. A subscription service at least has a reason to continue operating as long as it has subscribers - My UK TiVo service ran for many many years after TiVo abandoned the UK market, for example.

If you want to roll your own home monitoring/control solution, there's a wide range of things on the market to do that work.

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#352224 - 17/05/2012 03:56 Re: electric imp [Re: TigerJimmy]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: TigerJimmy
If I am going to design a machine of some kind that has the socket for an imp, along with the logic and hardware to use it meaningfully, then why don't I just put my own wifi chip and antenna on the device? Sticking one of these into a camera won't connect the camera to the internet unless the camera has software to use it, right? Or am I wrong? Is that the point? I don't understand.


This pretty much addresses the why: http://www.electricimp.com/manufacturers/

It's a royal pain "just sticking my own wifi chip and antenna on the device". Besides, just doing that gets you... a device on local wifi. You'll need to run a service too, plus write some phone apps, deal with upgrades, sort out your security and configuration, etc.

All this is stuff which is best done once, by people whose business it is to do this stuff well. Would you trust a washing machine vendor to keep your device up to date with security updates, add facilities to talk to whatever new useful internet service comes out, or, god forbid, make their machine work with some other product made by a competitor? It's not their area of expertise - there's not really any money in it for them either.

Besides manufacturers like this, we're opening the market for "boring" devices to become cheaper. Want a plug top power controller? Buying a no-name chinese brand would be awful if you were relying on their software (and for them to fix bugs and provide updates), but buy one with an imp slot and all they have to do is make a power supply and a relay in a plastic box. You get proper networking and integration from a specialist.

Separating the networking/service bit and the device is actually a really good way to go.... at least IMHO wink

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#352225 - 17/05/2012 04:02 Re: electric imp [Re: TigerJimmy]
K447
old hand

Registered: 29/05/2002
Posts: 798
Loc: near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Lots of equipment in a typical home could benefit from decent Internet connectivity.

A furnace and A/C system that could report when the gas burner doesn't light as quickly or conistently as it used to (but the problem would otherwise be hidden behind an automatic retry and restart design until complete failure occurs) or the A/C cooling output is less effective than expected. Equipment that can request the owner call for service before failure or even directly request the service itself.

Equipment that can provide useful and usable ongoing and historical operational data. Equipment that can report and monitor trends and forecast wear, consumption or sub-optimal usage.

Equipment that can be told (via the Internet) when the power rates are lower (or higher) and factor that into its operation. Or be told about outside weather (current or forecasted) and adjust intelligently. Less local sensors and more efficient operation.

An outdoor ice/snow melting system that knows when the snow storm would actually arrive and preheat. Or automatic sunshades and climate control that know when it is cloudy without using local senors.

Equipment that can report operational statistics or other data back to the manufacturer or service organization.

Cars that can report each night their fuel consumption numbers and potential service items. Refrigerator that orders its own replacement water filter and it arrives the same day the 'replace filter' message appears on the front panel.

Devices with no front panel at all that you can easily configure and control from your smartphone or a web page. And provide data about how and how well the device is working.

Commercial equipment of many forms, from vending machines to security devices to specialized and vertical market equipment. Toner for the photocopier arrives just as it is needed.

Smart remote cloud services that add layers of management and integration to make swarms of enabled devices (of many different types) act and react in smart ways.

And many more...

Potential seems tremendous. Excellent!

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#352226 - 17/05/2012 04:55 Re: electric imp [Re: K447]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
I'd rather have the subscription "cost" built into the device at point of purchase, at least that way the only things I have to worry about are:

* it breaks (and I have to buy a replacement - and effectively I'll have paid for 2 subscriptions for the "same" device, but that's preferable to a monthly ongoing subscription which I may have to expand depending on how many units I have)

* the servers go off at electric imp.

Without playing with a device and knowing how it works, would there be the possibility of electric imp providing a "hobbyist" server, you know, something that will allow imps to run independently of the cloud but without support for commercial imp connected devices? I wouldn't even care about an overlord license on it "this may only be used for IMP devices that you own" etc.

Cortex M3? Energy micro?

Edit: Seems not, ST....


Edited by sn00p (17/05/2012 04:58)

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#352227 - 17/05/2012 06:11 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I can see a massive market myself.

Take my Pioneer AV Receiver for example, that is "internet" enabled. But it is quite difficult to use and need it's own app on the iPhone to work. As I see it if it had an EI slot on the front I could slip in a card fire up my home automation software/service/app and it would be there ready to go!

Apply that to most new electronics in a home and the doors really start opening up.

Cheers

Cris

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#352228 - 17/05/2012 07:00 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
I like the idea very much, but I imagine the hard part is getting manufacturers to implement a EI slot on their devices. (you'll need one of those on every device using it, if I understand correctly?)

If you could get them to do this, then you're all set.

Will you also look into getting it connected to existing home automation standards? Like EIB/KNX?
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#352229 - 17/05/2012 08:07 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
Originally Posted By: sn00p
Cortex M3? Energy micro?

Edit: Seems not, ST....


The STM32F2 in the Imp is a Cortex M3. I absolutely love these micros, I've used them in dozens of applications over the last couple of years. Of course in this case we're kept out of the firmware (at least directly) but from what I hear the script engine runs very quickly (and so it should).

The power consumption also looks very good. My first project will be adding an Imp to my RFID cat flap which runs on 4 AA cells. If Hugo's figures are accurate, and assuming I can get a wakeup signal from the RFID module, it should run for months/years on a set of batteries.

Rob

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#352230 - 17/05/2012 08:27 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: rob
The STM32F2 in the Imp is a Cortex M3. I absolutely love these micros, I've used them in dozens of applications over the last couple of years. Of course in this case we're kept out of the firmware (at least directly) but from what I hear the script engine runs very quickly (and so it should).

The power consumption also looks very good. My first project will be adding an Imp to my RFID cat flap which runs on 4 AA cells. If Hugo's figures are accurate, and assuming I can get a wakeup signal from the RFID module, it should run for months/years on a set of batteries.

Rob


We're just in the process of doing a cut down version of one of our products and in addition are looking to cut our power usage. The "systems" our product are used in are generally battery powered, but we're talking big batteries (30+Ah) because of the load that it drives.

However, static current draw is a concern to us (because the load isn't on anywhere near 100% of the time) and we pretty much hit the limit on what was achievable with the old design and micro (SAM7 micro).

We knew we were moving to Cortex from ARM7 and we had a good look around at what was about, including the STM32 and the offerings from NXP, TI etc.

We eventually settled on the EnergyMicro family of Cortex M3 because they were designed from the ground up for low power, there's some pretty neat stuff in there for optimising power usage, oh and they're also pretty darned cheap.

...wants to get hands on an Imp to have a play.

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#352231 - 17/05/2012 08:30 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Cris
Take my Pioneer AV Receiver for example, that is "internet" enabled. But it is quite difficult to use and need it's own app on the iPhone to work. As I see it if it had an EI slot on the front I could slip in a card fire up my home automation software/service/app and it would be there ready to go!

This is where the greatest potential lies but also where my greatest fear for the product is. It makes complete sense that these companies should hand over this part of their product to someone who knows what they're doing, but it seems that more and more, these CE companies seem to be under the impression that they're software and service designers too. Convincing them otherwise seems like it will be the toughest row to hoe.
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#352232 - 17/05/2012 09:15 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mac
addict

Registered: 20/05/1999
Posts: 411
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Originally Posted By: altman
A subscription service at least has a reason to continue operating as long as it has subscribers - My UK TiVo service ran for many many years after TiVo abandoned the UK market, for example.

Right up until they did actually turn it off. Luckily TiVo's that old were hackable enough that someone else was able to carry on where TiVo left off and provide a programme guide that still works.

So, I think I'd be happier committing to a system if I knew that there was no DRM or other artificial mechanism that would stop the device (at least theoretically) working with an alternative service.
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#352233 - 17/05/2012 09:55 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
A proprietary mesh isn't a problem at all if you're using a Z-Wave (or whatever) to WiFi (or ethernet more likely) gateway to interface with your TCP/IP network. I don't think having every light switch on your LAN will be very good in practice. I'd much rather have a single controller able to address all the switches, with only that controller connected directly to the LAN. IMO, that's much more useful and would allow a single server-like app to interface with all the switches. Otherwise for that kind of functionality you'd still have to install such software on a server somewhere, also connected to the LAN.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352234 - 17/05/2012 10:04 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: Dignan
It makes complete sense that these companies should hand over this part of their product to someone who knows what they're doing, but it seems that more and more, these CE companies seem to be under the impression that they're software and service designers too.


Or conversely, that the network implementers are CE experts. Who is going to implement the software? How will it work with this type of product? Will it offer all the features a particular company wants exposed for their product? What if they want different product lines to have different features? What if they DON'T want it to work with competitor's products? How will they differentiate?

I see the potential and I see some of the benefits, but I also see a ton of question marks and dotted lines.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352236 - 17/05/2012 11:47 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: ALTMAN
Would you trust a washing machine vendor to keep your device up to date...[SNIP]...It's not their area of expertise - there's not really any money in it for them either.
I dunno, Hugo. I think the vendor is going to be concerned with how clean his machine gets clothes, and is not going to be interested in re-tooling his factory and increasing his manufacturing cost in order to accommodate the tiny percentage of nerds and geeks who think it is a good idea to connect their washing machines to the internet.

I can imagine a woman asking the salesman "But why would I want to use my washing machine to send emails?"

I think you will have a difficult time convincing manufacturers to abandon the NIH (Not Invented Here) attitude that is deeply ingrained in most businesses.

tanstaafl.
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#352239 - 17/05/2012 12:14 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Since this device will integrate into a machine and control it I’m thing finger pointing might be an issue for the washing machine owner. When the washing machine breaks the repair person might say “That’s your problem right there, you got that there imp thing installed.” Then when you call the imp tech line you get a tech saying we don’t fix washing machines.

So if the washing machine company does want to provide good customer service they’re going to have to take “ownership” of the imp and warranty the imp. In the end this will cost the company more than just adding an imp slot.

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#352240 - 17/05/2012 12:21 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
I think the vendor is going to be concerned with how clean his machine gets clothes, and is not going to be interested in re-tooling his factory and increasing his manufacturing cost in order to accommodate the tiny percentage of nerds and geeks who think it is a good idea to connect their washing machines to the internet.


Well, for pretty much everybody selling boxes, the fashionable trend right now is to move back to the old IBM mainframe revenue model. They don't want to sell you a washing machine, they want you to subscribe to a washing machine service, where the customer pays a monthly fee for having their washing machine maintained and updated. Great idea, but why would I want to have my washing machine updated, and does it really benefit from preventive maintenance?

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#352241 - 17/05/2012 12:31 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
How about a life-long subscription option, similar Garmin's life map-update subscription? That would possibly make those who don't like subscriptions happy. I am one of them.

Also, how about some ready-to-end-user device that may help the product start pernetrate the market? I, for one, would love a plug adapter to place between plug and socket that tells me about consumption, produces stats, allows me to turn on and off devices? I know a socket bult-in solution would be more elegant, but many of us, I think, would still love something like that to begin with. As a matter of fact, I personally would like it so much I'd buy a bunch of them from day one (of EU shipping) smile

Just thinking out loud. smile

Congratulation on the new product. I wish you succeed in establishing a sort of de-facto standard, or at least to get as popular as the product deserves.
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#352242 - 17/05/2012 12:36 Re: electric imp [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
... oh, and My wishlist also would include:

1. Windows Phone App

2. Runnign my own server app. I am a bit confused here. If the Imp exposes some standard interface on the user-end, why can't that info be collected/controlled by a local server just as it is from the cloud? I am sure I am missing some parts, here.
_________________________
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#352243 - 17/05/2012 12:42 Re: electric imp [Re: Taym]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Where there is and ongoing service I am far happier to be paying a subscription rather than a one off cost. Quite apart from anything else, it increases the chances that the service will be around for a long time...
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#352244 - 17/05/2012 12:56 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: andy
Quite apart from anything else, it increases the chances that the service will be around for a long time...

True. It is just me, I am one of those who hates installments/periodic fees/sybscriptions and other forms of payments that extend in time. Still, I use them all the time, it goes w/o saying. But, was I offered a $2 monthly fee or a $100 upfront lifetime, provided it is for a product I like and cherish, I'd probably go with the $100. What can I tell you. smile

I find my Garmin nav a nice (useful) device. Garmin asks for € 20 circa each full map update. But they also offered a life-long update plan, at € 100, which can be migrated from one device to another (but one device at the time). I particularly liked that. Only last week I updated my Garmin for the sixth time, so I am only now economically benefiting from the life-time subscription, after more that two years. If it wasn't that it is a water-proof model for motorbikes which they did not care to update so far, it would probably be outdated hardware, and after two year who knows what I would be considering now. Trying TomTom, getting a new model wich comes with at least one mat upgrade, etc. So, I am not sure the life-long subscription it is a valid economic choice. Pychologically, I like it. I just know that I can always plug my Garmin to my PC and update it, and forget all worries.
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#352246 - 17/05/2012 13:47 Re: electric imp [Re: Taym]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I've been pondering the business model behind the Imp and I think it makes more sense for "cheap" devices (light switches) than "expensive" ones (home appliances).

For the light switches, a builder can roll cheap switches that happen to be Imp-ready into any new-construction house. Most home buyers won't do anything, while some will buy a 20-pack of Imps and have a rocking home automation system. That makes lots of sense.

Conversely, for the fridge, the dish washer, or even the thermostat, there's a lot more going on. Sure, you could stick an Imp slot in a "dumb" thermostat, but that doesn't yield something half as smart as a Nest, with all its extra sensors and more sophisticated control systems. (Not that they exactly *work*, but that's getting off-topic.)

The other trick with major appliances is who gets to "own the experience" of the homeowner. If I'm GE or Bosch or Miele, I want the user to log into ge.com, not electricimp.com. Among other things, they want to connect sales and service. "Ahh, I see your fridge's water filter is expired. Can we bill your card and send you a fresh one?"

And then, there's the whole open question of who gets to be at the center of the "connected home." When you talk about coordinating things like your fridge and your A/C and your electric car, where you want to stay below some maximum current draw, you need central coordination to make decisions. Who gets to own that? Apple? Honeywell? Electric Imp? Heaven forbid we might have a *standard* for how all of this stuff will interoperate.

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#352247 - 17/05/2012 15:20 Re: electric imp [Re: DWallach]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
I'm going to try to knock up an Imp connected RFID cat flap to see how well it works in practice (keeping in mind this stuff is pre-alpha right now).

Blogging it here:

http://fenconsultants.com/blog/

Rob

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#352249 - 17/05/2012 20:16 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
A proprietary mesh isn't a problem at all if you're using a Z-Wave (or whatever) to WiFi (or ethernet more likely) gateway to interface with your TCP/IP network. I don't think having every light switch on your LAN will be very good in practice. I'd much rather have a single controller able to address all the switches, with only that controller connected directly to the LAN. IMO, that's much more useful and would allow a single server-like app to interface with all the switches. Otherwise for that kind of functionality you'd still have to install such software on a server somewhere, also connected to the LAN.

Excellent point. Sadly the products I've seen that do this are obscenely expensive and look like they have terrible interfaces. I've been waiting for someone to come around to this market segment for years and shake it up, because it would be SO easy to do. I was hoping that Google was going to do it, but ever since that Google IO announcement about automation stuff, I haven't heard word one about it frown

I really need to reiterate how awesome the Z-Wave mesh network is. I have NEVER had signal issues with it, it works every single time, and every single device gets the signal every time. It's pretty amazing stuff. Now I just wish it were easier to set up, and had more control options...
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#352322 - 22/05/2012 06:39 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
mac
addict

Registered: 20/05/1999
Posts: 411
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
I think the vendor is going to be concerned with how clean his machine gets clothes, and is not going to be interested in re-tooling his factory and increasing his manufacturing cost in order to accommodate the tiny percentage of nerds and geeks who think it is a good idea to connect their washing machines to the internet.

I can imagine a woman asking the salesman "But why would I want to use my washing machine to send emails?"



How about: "of course I'd love to receive a text message/email/big red flashing light that tells me when the washing has finished or reminds me when the washing has been sat in the machine for half an hour and I haven't emptied it. Will this let me do that?"
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#352323 - 22/05/2012 11:36 Re: electric imp [Re: mac]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: mac
the washing has finished or reminds me when the washing has been sat in the machine for half an hour and I haven't emptied it. Will this let me do that?"


It's a great reminder to get in the car and then drive, from work, an hour back home to deal with the wash. smile

A washing machine needs an wifi/lan/internet connection as much as an ottoman needs an oil pump. A wifi connection on that type of machine doesn't do anything remotely interesting (no pun intended) to automate its functionality. Nothing that isn't already accomplished with timers and sensors already built into machines for over a decade. The benefit of automation comes in removing/lessening the manual portion of the activity. A wifi connection can't do this.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352324 - 22/05/2012 12:45 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: mac
the washing has finished or reminds me when the washing has been sat in the machine for half an hour and I haven't emptied it. Will this let me do that?"

It's a great reminder to get in the car and then drive, from work, an hour back home to deal with the wash. smile

Why would anybody start their wash before work when it takes an hour to get to work (my typical load takes 51minutes)? I see it more as a use for somebody outside doing lawn work, or playing in the pool where you can't hear the washing machine beeping.

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#352325 - 22/05/2012 14:01 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
A wifi connection can't do this.


While it's true to say the WiFi connection itself doesn't make this happen, it does open the door to a whole new world of automation and control. How about keeping logs of water consumption and energy usage? The weight of the load and suggestions of how you can do your washing more efficiently?

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out, and I look forward to having a play with it when it hits the UK.

Cheers

Cris

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#352326 - 22/05/2012 14:14 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: Cris
How about keeping logs of water consumption and energy usage? The weight of the load and suggestions of how you can do your washing more efficiently?
And just how is a washing machine going to do that without $100 worth of extra sensors and firmware? It would cost the manufacturer tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to re-tool his factory, purchase the additional pieces and install them, pay someone to write and support the firmware for the additional electronics, all so someone can pay $200 more for a washing machine that gets his clothes exactly as clean as the low-end model without all the bells and whistles.

Oh, boy -- more efficient. I can't imagine how saving two pints of water and 1/10 of a kWh per load is going to save me $200 over the life of the machine. At 10 cents/kWh, two loads per week, it would take nearly 200 years for the payback.

If my clothes sit in the washing machine for an extra hour (or even an extra day) before I put them in the dryer... Well, dilligaf?

tanstaafl.
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#352327 - 22/05/2012 14:15 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
(no pun intended)
Yeah. Right. smile

tanstaafl.
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#352328 - 22/05/2012 14:18 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
I think the idea is that modern machines already have most/all of those sensors (ours here does), but lack the UI to present/track it all. EDIT: they also lack time-of-day and utility rate info, but that is all available on the web once the device has internet capability.

With an imp installed to relay that info to a central server, remote web/based software can track the usage and compute averages and load advice etc.. and present it all with snazzy graphics within a web-browser interface.

The added B.O.M. cost is about a dollar to the washer, plus perhaps twice that much again in overhead costs, and they get to sell the "intelligent internet enabled" washer for an extra $100 to "savvy" consumers. smile

Cheers

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#352329 - 22/05/2012 14:23 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: mlord
EDIT: they also lack time-of-day and utility rate info, but that is all available on the web once the device has internet capability.


Oooh.. and another use for the imp: any device that has (or wants) a built-in clock can now set the time/date all by itself. No need for extra buttons to do that, and no need for us all to (re-)do it after power failures or daylight-savings adjustments.

+10!

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#352330 - 22/05/2012 14:28 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Modern washing machines already have a bunch of sensors, some including sensors to weigh the load and act accordingly.

And you keep talking about retooling factories. Manufacturers don't continually turn out the same* appliances year after year, they update and redesign them all the time. Adding an extra slot that is connected to the firmware and electronics they already have doesn't involve retooling the factory anymore that updating to next years models does.

* or at least they don't in Europe, though given the pictures I've seen of US appliances in the past, the same might not apply there wink
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#352331 - 22/05/2012 14:31 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
I think the idea is that modern machines already have most/all of those sensors


Exactly!

All that is missing is the connection to the outside world.

I see this a little like the difference between a computer without a modem and one with. At first we didn't all really get it did we? Then it hit the mass market and now we can't imagine buying a computer without some form of connection to the outside world.

I don't really see why a washing machine should be any different. This is a way of removing the premium model and just having everything internet ready if you want it to be.

Cheers

Cris

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#352332 - 22/05/2012 15:56 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
While washing machines have had these kinds of sensors for years, small and cheap integrated wifi chipsets have also been around for years. If manufacturers saw a demand for this, it would already be in their machines.

While wifi tech is useful for many applications, there are thousands of applications that are going to be left as "so what? who cares?"

Smart electric meters already have these tracking capabilities and by all accounts, people aren't using the stats or report-making abilities. Google shut down their tracking service as an example.

Honestly, most people don't want to sit around looking at graphs. I know plenty of people who do that during work hours who want to step on their computers at the end of each day. Which brings us back to the cool factor, which is automation. And you can't automate a washing machine with an internet connection.

The light switch example is much more apt, except for the fact where every switch is now going to cost $100+ retail. If you want to spend $100 on a light switch there are already products out there for you today. You might actually spend a lot less than $100 on the actual switch, but don't fret, you can make up for it in an expensive controller/gateway. smile

Now, I'd really be interested in hearing about the real/actual products this tech is going to find its way into. But I'm certain that if they were allowed to be announced at this time, we would already know. I suppose we'll have to wait.
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#352333 - 22/05/2012 16:50 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Again, yes the WiFi technology has been around for years, but has someone ever come up with a end user friendly way of connecting all your appliances together before ???

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#352334 - 22/05/2012 17:48 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Originally Posted By: mlord


Oooh.. and another use for the imp: any device that has (or wants) a built-in clock can now set the time/date all by itself. No need for extra buttons to do that, and no need for us all to (re-)do it after power failures or daylight-savings adjustments.

+10!


WWV

I guess if your in a an underground bunker that might be an issue with RF reception but my WWV clocks work fine in the middle of nowhere. Maybe WWV is only a US thing. Not sure, and too lazy to check.

I would love to hook one of these things up but I can't figure out a need or want.

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#352335 - 22/05/2012 19:18 Re: electric imp [Re: Redrum]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
I've not heard of $1 wifi with an attached programmable microprocessor before. That *is* new here, as is the infrastructure behind it all.

Cheers

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#352336 - 22/05/2012 19:21 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
As I understand it, the support bits for the manufacturer are $1. The actual SD card is $25. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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#352337 - 22/05/2012 19:33 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Bitt is right.
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#352339 - 22/05/2012 20:04 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
As I understand it, the support bits for the manufacturer are $1. The actual SD card is $25. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Isn't the retail price for the card $25 - so not really comparable to the $1 mfg incremental cost.
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#352340 - 22/05/2012 20:37 Re: electric imp [Re: LittleBlueThing]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that the two parts are complementary. You can't use the EI SD card without the support bits, and, without the card, the support bits are useless.

To be clear, by "support bits", I'm talking about the slot to put the card in, plus the rest that makes that slot actually connect to something internal to the device.

My understanding of the way things are supposed to go is: manufacturers include the support bits in the item for very little cost, and then the consumer can choose to internet-enable the device by putting an EI card into it.
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#352341 - 23/05/2012 00:56 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
As I understand it, the support bits for the manufacturer are $1. The actual SD card is $25. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Oh, absolutely. But it's the cost to the manufacturer that's most important here. At $1/unit, they could well sign on, and then sell the "internet ready" appliance for an extra $100 or so.

Then some "savvy" consumers might decide that for the cost of a bottle of vino they'll add the $25 internet connection -- peanuts for anyone already buying the most expensive machines.

That's somewhat clever of EI -- making it cheap and easy for the factories to support the product, and leaving the major (well, moderate) portion of the cost up to the end consumer.

Cheers

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#352343 - 23/05/2012 05:47 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Agreed, I wasn't clear.
I was more noting that $25 is retail and whilst the production cost for it is not likely $1 yet, it is likely to be capable of going to ${small} in the near future.
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#352344 - 23/05/2012 07:22 Re: electric imp [Re: LittleBlueThing]
sein
old hand

Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
Electricity, Water and Gas meters with Imps in them would be really great. Even if a third party electricity check meter existed with an Imp slot, I know some of my customers (landlords) who would buy them a dozen at a time.
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#352345 - 23/05/2012 13:10 Re: electric imp [Re: Redrum]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Redrum
WWV

I guess if your in a an underground bunker that might be an issue with RF reception but my WWV clocks work fine in the middle of nowhere. Maybe WWV is only a US thing. Not sure, and too lazy to check.

I would love to hook one of these things up but I can't figure out a need or want.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have a clock with this, and it seems to take about three days past DST to actually change the time.

Besides, that's a pretty weak argument. "Don't put this thing in that can do a bunch of stuff because here's another technology that's also not in any of these products that does only one thing."

Anyway, I'm already an Electric Imp fan. If I had the know-how to install these into things I already own, I would. Hopefully it'll catch on with manufacturers, and I especially hope it gets picked up by someone who puts it in a Z-Wave controller, so I can finally have some decent interaction with my house lights...
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#352347 - 23/05/2012 15:21 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Originally Posted By: Dignan

Besides, that's a pretty weak argument. "Don't put this thing in that can do a bunch of stuff because here's another technology that's also not in any of these products that does only one thing."


I really don't have an argument here just an observation.

If I were to argue I would say – “If it’s only going to set my clock or turn on/off lights I'm not going to pay a monthly service fee. Also I don't want to pay $44 for a clock when the older free technology will get me a $19 clock." I've never had to wait days for my clock to change.

But if there was something I needed/wanted to control or monitor remotely I would be all over this. I just can't think of one. The only thing I can think of is a home monitoring system. But they allow remote access now.

I would think remote temperature control of the house would be nice but I heat with wood and I don’t think this thing will load my stove.

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#352348 - 23/05/2012 15:25 Re: electric imp [Re: Redrum]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: Redrum
I would think remote temperature control of the house would be nice but I heat with wood and I don’t think this thing will load my stove.
No... but it could call the fire department when your chimney caught fire because you didn't clean the creosote out of it. smile

tanstaafl.
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#352349 - 23/05/2012 15:38 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Good idea but unfortunately in the US government services like the fire department and police don’t take automated calls. But I guess it could call me or a neighbor. But after just spending $6k on a new stove and chimney I’ll take my chances. Plus my insurance is paid up.

I’m still thinking

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#352350 - 23/05/2012 16:18 Re: electric imp [Re: Redrum]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Redrum
I’m still thinking

AC system: Not sure if Nest does this, but remote control of the system when you are coming home early (and it is 107F outside) and the temp isn't set to lower for another few hours. Health monitoring so you can spot a problem and call the repairman before it is 95F in the house and you just got home.

Stove/Crockpot: Change the timer so that the cooking time starts earlier or higher temp so the food is cooked sooner. Adjust the timer on something like a bread-making machine to start earlier/later depending on a schedule change.

Irrigation system: Modify the timers while out of town to account for any weather changes/rain.

DVR: Notification that you ran out of space and are not going to get the show recorded you were waiting for. Delete shows remotely to free up space (Myth TV probably does that already).

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#352352 - 23/05/2012 16:43 Re: electric imp [Re: Tim]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Those are definitely some good ideas and I hope manufactures do build the imp into these products. I guess I’m thinking is more on the lines of “What can I hook-up now that will probably never be in a product.”

You did spark my thinking on irrigation. I have a cistern that is filled from a spring. If we have a heavy rain the water gets murky and this either clogs up the filter or in some cases gets mud into the cistern. If I could have this turned off automatically when a heavy rain comes, or remotely when I’m expecting a big rain that would be cool. However the cistern is probably 300’ from the house not in my wifi range.

I suppose I could also do this with a rain gauge to automatically turn off the flow. But this would be a cool project I could possibly do.

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#352402 - 29/05/2012 10:03 Re: electric imp [Re: pca]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
While I can see some value in turning on the oven remotely, eg I just bought a frozn pizza on the way home, I don't see £5.95 (~$9) a month value in it - I just don't eat that much pizza.

Paying a flat amount for several Imps would be more palatable, but the cloud offering will really need to be sweet, and the variety of appliances / uses to be great. Unfortunately I think manufactures will reserve this feature for their top of the line products, rather then the bigger mid-range market, meaning most of us will have to wait.

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#352449 - 01/06/2012 10:03 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: rob
Originally Posted By: sn00p
Cortex M3? Energy micro?

Edit: Seems not, ST....


The STM32F2 in the Imp is a Cortex M3. I absolutely love these micros, I've used them in dozens of applications over the last couple of years. Of course in this case we're kept out of the firmware (at least directly) but from what I hear the script engine runs very quickly (and so it should).

The power consumption also looks very good. My first project will be adding an Imp to my RFID cat flap which runs on 4 AA cells. If Hugo's figures are accurate, and assuming I can get a wakeup signal from the RFID module, it should run for months/years on a set of batteries.

Rob


Oddly enough, since we mentioned that we were looking to use the energy micro family, our component supplier has been bending over backwards to get us to use the stm32 family, so much so that we're actually looking at using the stm32f2 in our design.

We like the fact that the BGA package is pin compatible with the f4 which has FPU and DSP bits inside and could be of use on our products "bigger brothers".

It's also fast!

Adrian

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#352451 - 01/06/2012 10:14 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Sorry, Hugo. They talked about you and your company on the last episode of This Week In Tech, and it was surprisingly disrespectful. The moment they finished "discussing" your product I turned the show off and deleted the episode. I've sent them an email expressing my disappointment.
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#352456 - 01/06/2012 12:04 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Was there any substance to their criticism? Just curious what their complaints were.
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#352460 - 01/06/2012 13:44 Re: electric imp [Re: tonyc]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
They didn't really say much about it. They weren't actually commenting on a story about EI. They were commenting on a quote from Hugo about phones being hard to build, where he was about the Facebook building their own phone.

The only thing they actually said about EI was John C Dvorak with his normal cynical "it has been tried before, it didn't work".

I didn't see any of it as disrespectful, they were just having an odder and crabbier week than normal wink
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#352464 - 01/06/2012 17:42 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Isn't Dvorak reason enough not to go near that podcast? Ever?
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352465 - 01/06/2012 19:09 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Where in the podcast is it? I didn't realize that it was going to be 2-3 hours of four old dudes rambling on.

Edit: Found it. 1:18:55


Edited by wfaulk (01/06/2012 19:17)
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#352470 - 02/06/2012 16:46 Re: electric imp [Re: wfaulk]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Where in the podcast is it? I didn't realize that it was going to be 2-3 hours of four old dudes rambling on.

Agreed! I went through the same yesterday just to hear the small snippet they devoted to Electric Imp. I had the exact same feeling: what rambling old geezers! Do you watch this show every week Dignan? Wow, talk about endurance!
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#352472 - 02/06/2012 18:48 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Isn't Dvorak reason enough not to go near that podcast? Ever?


It can be quite fun listening to it because of Dvorak. Not because I agree with much of what he says, hell I don't think he agrees with much of what it says, but it can be entertaining none the less. Very far from my favourite podcast though, think that has to be Hypercritical, probably.
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#352473 - 02/06/2012 19:45 Re: electric imp [Re: BartDG]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Archeon
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Where in the podcast is it? I didn't realize that it was going to be 2-3 hours of four old dudes rambling on.

Agreed! I went through the same yesterday just to hear the small snippet they devoted to Electric Imp. I had the exact same feeling: what rambling old geezers! Do you watch this show every week Dignan? Wow, talk about endurance!

Haha, yes, I tend to at least start it every week. It used to be excellent, but has very very slowly turned into what it is today. It used to be a great show analyzing the tech news of the week, but now they don't really say much of any substance, they ramble, and sometimes they don't even really talk about tech. This episode was particularly bad.

*edit*
And to add to that, I have a lot of problems with how Leo runs his shows and many of his newer viewpoints, which seem to conflict with older ones he used to have.


Edited by Dignan (02/06/2012 19:47)
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#352476 - 03/06/2012 02:10 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: andy
They didn't really say much about it. They weren't actually commenting on a story about EI. They were commenting on a quote from Hugo about phones being hard to build, where he was about the Facebook building their own phone.

The only thing they actually said about EI was John C Dvorak with his normal cynical "it has been tried before, it didn't work".

I didn't see any of it as disrespectful, they were just having an odder and crabbier week than normal wink


Hmm, didn't hear about that one. The NYT quote was a bit out of context - the correct context was an answer to a question about "couldn't they just take an HTC phone and modify it a bit", and I was noting that there's very little simple about "modifying a phone a bit". Everything in a phone is dependent on everything else to a very large extent - before you know it you'll be designing a whole new phone.

It's been interesting reading the discussion here; I do think it's *not* actually been tried before - not in this way - and whilst I accept that many large vendors will not try it at first (NIH, we've spent lots on our own solution, we only want things to work with our own products, etc etc), I believe that smaller vendors don't suffer from the same issues and will adopt it because, well, it's actually useful in some contexts and is a cheap way to differentiate products.

Longer term, I believe customers will start demanding the integration from the larger vendors, because it "just works" and is a user-centric service vs a vendor-centric service. Vendor-centric services often tend to deliver no user benefits at all, then the vendor is surprised when they don't catch on.

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#352477 - 03/06/2012 02:19 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: andy
Very far from my favourite podcast though, think that has to be Hypercritical, probably.

I need to listen to that one more. Started in back when John talked about the Jobs biography. More and more 5by5 shows are creeping into my list, displacing some TWiT ones.

This Week in Tech I think suffers from how many shows are on the network now. The really interesting discussions are very spread out, compared to when it was the only podcast Leo did.

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#352478 - 03/06/2012 04:24 Re: electric imp [Re: drakino]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Most of the shows on the TWiT network seem to have no state. In that they will discuss an issue, misunderstand or mischaracterise it and then never correct themselves in a following show. Or they will understand an issue one week, only to get mixed up on it next week.

The 5by5 shows on the other hand tend to correct themselves from listener feedback when they get it wrong. Which leads to a lot less of me shouting at the Squeezebox that they are wrong...

And I still can't work out if Steve Gibson is a crackpot, genius or both wink
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#352479 - 03/06/2012 11:49 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: andy
Most of the shows on the TWiT network seem to have no state. In that they will discuss an issue, misunderstand or mischaracterise it and then never correct themselves in a following show. Or they will understand an issue one week, only to get mixed up on it next week.

I've noticed some of this too. Every show pretty much discusses the same issues, and then might make observations based on the theme of the show, but most of the time they just say the same thing everyone else is saying.

In other cases, I've found I simply can't stand the hosts anymore. I've listened to Tech News Today since the first episode, and it does help me stay informed, but I can't stand Sarah Lane and Iyaz Akhtar. If Sarah is hosting one day, I delete the show immediately. Tom Merrit, on the other hand, is great.

Quote:
The 5by5 shows on the other hand tend to correct themselves from listener feedback when they get it wrong. Which leads to a lot less of me shouting at the Squeezebox that they are wrong...

Ugh, I definitely hear you there. Leo has always claimed that he's all about the social aspect of podcasting, and he's so proud of his chat room. But TNT is the show that actually reads their email and gets corrections, and he's not on that one.

Quote:
And I still can't work out if Steve Gibson is a crackpot, genius or both wink

Haha! I think both. He's pretty dang smart, though.
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#352691 - 13/06/2012 19:43 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: rob
I'm going to try to knock up an Imp connected RFID cat flap to see how well it works in practice (keeping in mind this stuff is pre-alpha right now).

Blogging it here:

http://fenconsultants.com/blog/

So.. that cat flap thing. It looks like a one-way portal (diode).
Does one need to install two of them for a cat to be able to come and go as cats are wont to do ?

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#352699 - 14/06/2012 08:45 Re: electric imp [Re: andy]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Originally Posted By: andy
And I still can't work out if Steve Gibson is a crackpot, genius or both wink


Hmmm - some info here: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#352701 - 14/06/2012 12:49 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
Originally Posted By: mlord

So.. that cat flap thing. It looks like a one-way portal (diode).
Does one need to install two of them for a cat to be able to come and go as cats are wont to do ?


It'll let any cat (or no cats) out. It'll let any cat, no cats or your cats in. All depending on the position of a (manual) latch. That will need to be motorised really, for my project.

Rob


Edited by rob (14/06/2012 12:49)

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#352702 - 14/06/2012 14:08 Re: electric imp [Re: rob]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
How about Raccoons and small dogs?
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352706 - 14/06/2012 15:44 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
If they have rfid chips, yes.

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#352707 - 14/06/2012 20:15 Re: electric imp [Re: larry818]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I assumed "any cat" meant one without any kind of tag.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#352709 - 14/06/2012 20:28 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
We had a ginger tom cat a good few years ago. We had a cat flap not unlike this one, but it was pre tog so it was activated by a little magnet on his collar.

We could set it so he go out, but not back in. It didn't take him long to figure out the door only opened outwards, and when outside he could hook a claw on the lip, pull the door out, get is head under and back in the house!

It was pretty impressive the first time I caught him doing it.

So all cats out, could also meant all smart cats in smile

Cheers

Cris

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#354239 - 18/08/2012 12:57 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
I just learned about Electric Imp by hearing TWiT stumble across it in their podcast... because I'm constantly three months behind in listening. I'm really glad to hear that Hugo and Peter are creating new and interesting hardware. Your venture seems well timed, poised to deliver before the rest of the industry figures it out and gets their "corporation centric" products widespread. Good luck guys!

And thanks for the 5by5 podcast network recommendation. I'm going to check out a few of their shows, especially In Beta with Gina Trapani and Kevin Purdy. Though the TWiT show may be a waste, Gina's appearance on This Week in Google makes it a good listen. Also a plug for TWiT's Triangulation interview show and Security Now, which you already knew about.
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FireFox31
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#354487 - 27/08/2012 05:14 Re: electric imp [Re: FireFox31]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Hugo:

So is SmartThings a competitor? What do you think of their offering?
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#354488 - 27/08/2012 10:11 Re: electric imp [Re: JBjorgen]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
I thought the same thing. But to me it looks like they're not as ambitious as Electric Imp. If anything, it seems to me like they're trying to create yet another automation standard. An open standard, that includes interoperability (supposedly) with things like Z-Wave or Insteon, but still another standard.

SmartThings also doesn't seem to have the goal of being in large electronics like washer/dryers or fridges. In fact, they don't seem to have much of a specific gameplan at all. They don't mention how they're going about any of these things they're trying.

Last night I ordered one of these, which will become the new hub of my Z-Wave network. I'll be able to do a lot more with this thing. It can control Insteon and X10 as well, so I still don't get the point of this SmartThings project.


I maintain that the only thing that will ever change the home automation market is lower prices. The cost of these systems is still much to high for the average consumer to jump on it. Then we can start to address how awful it usually is to control all these things...


Edited by Dignan (27/08/2012 15:46)
Edit Reason: fixed link
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#354489 - 27/08/2012 13:16 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Link doesn't work Matt.

The Smarthings looks like a retail solution, whereas Hugo's company seems positioned as an OEM solution.

I don't think lower prices will make a difference to adoption. The fact remains that most people out there simply can't wrap their heads around the concept and wouldn't be able to implement the solution(s). Once you throw custom installers into the mix that can take some consumers there, but it's still a hard sell on the benefits to get them to pick up the phone to get an installer over in the first place.

To see these things take off you'll have to see adoption by home builders or utility-like monopolies. If it doesn't come standard with the home or isn't installed as part of an already familiar technology, I don't think the general public is going to get on board.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#354490 - 27/08/2012 15:49 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Fixed the link.

Yeah, I agree with that. I suppose I mean there's a decent-sized portion of DIY geeks who are thrown off by the cost. I don't suppose that lowering the cost will immediately spark a home automation revolution, but at the moment the prices are just too high either way. $50 for a single light switch or single lamp module is at least twice what some people are going to spend. I'm already dreading having to repurchase my light switches (when I move - the current ones are staying where they are).


Edited by Dignan (27/08/2012 15:50)
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#354491 - 27/08/2012 16:29 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Try $130+ for a light switch to work with URC gear. OUCH.

Forgot this bit earlier about custom installers...

If the product is retail, with few exceptions, it's not going to gain tremendous support from the CI industry, most of whom are operating in the dark ages and will only support/install/carry brands that offer them protection and support through exclusivity and super-fat margins. Nothing pisses of a custom installer like a consumer's ability to buy from someone else what he installs.



Edited by hybrid8 (27/08/2012 17:08)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#354564 - 31/08/2012 00:44 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Pretty much on the same page as you are. They're buying in white-label zigbee/zwave stuff and then doing work to try and integrate these various devices at the operation level, vs at any lower level. This does nothing to help enable new classes of device, it just helps devices out there already may possibly get easier to use (though that remains to be seen).

It's been done many times before, though not at the same price point. eg Micasaverde does this for Zwave/Insteon/etc.

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#354566 - 31/08/2012 00:57 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: altman
It's been done many times before, though not at the same price point. eg Micasaverde does this for Zwave/Insteon/etc.

Indeed. I just picked up a Vera Lite, and I've been completely reworking my Z-Wave network. It's a great little box, and relatively inexpensive for the functionality it adds to my system. The software needs a lot of work, though, and my remotes are seriously neutered, for some reason. They have less than half their original functionality, and I can't figure out why.

On the positive side, today I was out and about and remembered I forgot to turn off the lights in my office at home. I was able to use my phone to turn them off from wherever I was smile That was pretty neat.
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#354602 - 05/09/2012 01:33 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
RobotCaleb
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Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin

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#354683 - 09/09/2012 04:54 Re: electric imp [Re: RobotCaleb]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Thanks, I'd not actually seen that one! Nobody on forums.electricimp.com mentioned it smile

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#355948 - 30/10/2012 06:00 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
I've had an imp for a couple of weeks now and I'm still struggling to see the point of it (Sorry Hugo) I've been trying hard to figure out what purpose it actually serves.

The price point serves as a killer, I know as much as the next guy how much technology costs but given that essentially this is a one-imp per "device" system (+ subscription) it's going to get expensive fairly quickly.

My second problem is what use it actually is? Sure, I could have an "imp ready" TV or HiFi that lets me control it from my iPhone - but it's less hassle and less clicks just to use the remote control that came with the tv/hifi (over unlock phone, find app, open wait, wait for app to open). Sure, I could control these devices from outside my home, but again, changing the channel on the TV from 1000 miles away isn't exactly useful.

So, home automation? Sure, this is where you might think there's a possible use, but how is the imp going to work with it? One imp per socket? (Ouch! $$$) Ok, so a gateway, Imp->X10...but why not just forego the imp and go straight to X10 with an IP gateway?

And now I'm left struggling to find any other uses for it integrating it apart from "well, we did it because we could".

I've just been left with the feeling that this is a great toy for electronics hobbyists to add WiFi to a device and not much more.

Please tell me I'm wrong Hugo, maybe I've just skipped past that eureka moment that would lead me onto that killer usage.

I must have really missed something.

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#355959 - 30/10/2012 12:07 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: sn00p
I've just been left with the feeling that this is a great toy for electronics hobbyists to add WiFi to a device and not much more.

Not good for that use -- won't work locally, talks only to "the cloud".

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#355962 - 30/10/2012 12:34 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: mlord
Originally Posted By: sn00p
I've just been left with the feeling that this is a great toy for electronics hobbyists to add WiFi to a device and not much more.

Not good for that use -- won't work locally, talks only to "the cloud".


Yeah, probably should have clarified that as *internet* (via cloud via WiFi) rather than direct to home network.

You can get the imp to communicate with the outside world via a HTTP interface, so you could in theory get an imp to communicate to something on the local network via a convoluted method.

Or you would buy an embedded WiFi module and use that instead, probably cheaper and easier for the hobbyist.

Now I think I have zero ideas where these things are useful!

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#355972 - 30/10/2012 17:49 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
tfabris
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Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: sn00p
I've had an imp for a couple of weeks now and I'm still struggling to see the point of it


I think that's the problem: You've *just* got the imp. By itself, it doesn't do anything. The point is that other devices will be built *around* the imp, and *those* are what will be cool. The imp fills a technological gap for any inventor who can build a neat physical device, but can't make good web-enabled software.

There are tons of devices that would benefit from being web-enabled, if only the people who made those devices could write decent software. There was always a lot of talk about web-enabled appliances, but it turns out most of the appliance manufacturers are only good at making reliable appliances. An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer). But the imp doesn't do that by itself, it needs the circuit to integrate it with the dryer. You need both bits before it's useful.

It's like the Arduino. You could buy an Arduino Uno board and stare at it and say "well this is useless". Or you could design a circuit that does something cool with it. Or, you could buy any number of devices that are already made by someone else, which happen to *leverage* the Arduino internally.
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#355973 - 30/10/2012 18:16 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Originally Posted By: sn00p
I've had an imp for a couple of weeks now and I'm still struggling to see the point of it


I think that's the problem: You've *just* got the imp. By itself, it doesn't do anything. The point is that other devices will be built *around* the imp, and *those* are what will be cool. The imp fills a technological gap for any inventor who can build a neat physical device, but can't make good web-enabled software.

There are tons of devices that would benefit from being web-enabled, if only the people who made those devices could write decent software. There was always a lot of talk about web-enabled appliances, but it turns out most of the appliance manufacturers are only good at making reliable appliances. An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer). But the imp doesn't do that by itself, it needs the circuit to integrate it with the dryer. You need both bits before it's useful.

It's like the Arduino. You could buy an Arduino Uno board and stare at it and say "well this is useless". Or you could design a circuit that does something cool with it. Or, you could buy any number of devices that are already made by someone else, which happen to *leverage* the Arduino internally.


I work on embedded projects Tony, I'm aware of what I have in my hands! smile

I just fail to see why I'd spend $25 (per device) on something that tells me that my dryer is finished or my kettle has boiled or my fridge door is open etc.

They all have the same thing in common, they're all things that happen local to me, but because of the architecture of the imp require that the trigger go out over the network and then bounce back down to my phone, if my internet goes down I'll never know that my kettles boiled or my dryers finished...apart from the the fact that they're probably beeping or it's been 3 minutes since I turned it on.

Same for home automation, sounds like an ideal application, but again it's dependant on the cloud. No internet, no worky.

Show me something cool and convince me otherwise, but I still can't see it's usefulness other than being a curiosity.

Don't get me wrong, I want to like it, I want to see the use in it, I want it to succeed. I'm just struggling.

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#355975 - 30/10/2012 19:17 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sorry. Misunderstood you. I see what you're saying.

Let's see what other applications folks come up with? :-)
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#355976 - 30/10/2012 19:25 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
The imp fills a technological gap for any inventor who can build a neat physical device, but can't make good web-enabled software.


Not exactly. At least not according to EI's web site. wink The manufacturer would still need to develop their own UI and related software, but EI's web-based tools may make this easier for at least the web-based front-end. I believe the larger benefits come on the hardware end and they're covered on the site...

Lots of good information and explanation of what the EI product/solution offers: http://electricimp.com/manufacturers/

It's somewhat compelling from a manufacturing perspective and it's good to see that this page does a good job of explaining a lot of questions I had when the project was first announced.


Edited by hybrid8 (30/10/2012 19:26)
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#355977 - 30/10/2012 19:30 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
There are tons of devices that would benefit from being web-enabled[...]There was always a lot of talk about web-enabled appliances

Lots of talk, yes. But just because there's lots of talk about it, doesn't mean that it's an idea with merit, just that the idea merits discussion. Remote operability/monitoring just isn't useful for the majority of stuff in my house, and the stuff I can think of where I would like a wireless-enabled appliance, it's either not data I want on the cloud (privacy issues!), or the feature isn't so valuable to me that I'd be willing to pay an on-going subscription fee.

Originally Posted By: tfabris
An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer).

Really? A text message? *shrug*

My dryer (that I bought >5 years ago) has a little display with a count-down timer. I can set an alarm on my phone from the display on the dryer, if I don't want to miss the end of the cycle. No imp necessary, no text message necessary, no cloud necessary, no subscription fee necessary. (And if I *do* miss the end of the cycle, then I can just use that "touch-up" feature.)

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#355979 - 30/10/2012 21:16 Re: electric imp [Re: sn00p]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Wow, I'm a little surprised by the negative reactions here.
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer).

Really? A text message? *shrug*

My dryer (that I bought >5 years ago) has a little display with a count-down timer. I can set an alarm on my phone from the display on the dryer, if I don't want to miss the end of the cycle. No imp necessary, no text message necessary, no cloud necessary, no subscription fee necessary. (And if I *do* miss the end of the cycle, then I can just use that "touch-up" feature.)

This seems like an odd argument: we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation because my device works a certain way that others don't.

What about other users with dryers that don't have a timer on them? Should that timer remain the pinnacle of dryer notification technology?


Question for EI "experts." Does the inclusion of EI in a device do more than just give information? Does it enable control? Could I fully control a clothes dryer remotely with EI, for example?

I'm currently in the process of automating my home. The biggest obstacle will be cost (ZWave is super expensive), but there are other obstacles. For example: there are no ZWave-enabled garage door openers (anymore - apparently there used to be). I would love to be able to remotely control these doors, or include them as triggers in my system (garage door goes up, turn on a light in the entrance).

I'd mostly like to be able to check if I put the door down after I left my house smile

Originally Posted By: sn00p
So, home automation? Sure, this is where you might think there's a possible use, but how is the imp going to work with it? One imp per socket? (Ouch! $$$) Ok, so a gateway, Imp->X10...but why not just forego the imp and go straight to X10 with an IP gateway?

Ugh, because X10 is crap. Seriously, that is the worst automation technology. It's super cheap, but that's the one positive I can say about it. It's really susceptible to interference on power lines, has a lot of trouble jumping over phases (if your house has them), and any product that adds scene capability not only feels like it was designed in 1995, scenes just won't work well at all.

ZWave switches to a wireless mesh network for communication of devices, which makes it far more reliable than powerline. These devices, however, are very expensive, almost all costing at least $50. Assuming a base cost of $26, I wonder how much over that cost a similar device would be.
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#355981 - 30/10/2012 22:10 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
The idea seems to be that Imp will reduce the development / maintenance costs for manufacturers who would want to put these kinds of features into their products, making it more likely that this "internet of things" ecosystem evolves than it would be if the manufacturers themselves were trying to do it with their own costly, buggy, non-interoperable technology stacks.

This "sell to the manufacturers, who will in turn sell to the customers" bank-shot approach will have to overcome the limitations / drawbacks sn00p mentions above, which all seem like legitimate and reasonable complaints to me. They really have to get it right out of the gate, with some big-name manufacturers and some seriously useful features. I don't think they can sell this as a home tinkerer type thing like the Arduino, because tinkerers aren't going to want to deal with a somewhat-expensive-for-what-it-can-do-on-day-one cloud service.
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#355982 - 30/10/2012 22:33 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: Dignan
there are no ZWave-enabled garage door openers (anymore - apparently there used to be). I would love to be able to remotely control these doors, or include them as triggers in my system (garage door goes up, turn on a light in the entrance).


I don't know of a single garage door opener that can't be operated with a dry contact closure (i.e. shorting two terminals on the device, normally connected via wire to a simple door-bell style momentary push button).

I would think it should be trivial to add any garage door opener to a ZWave (or any) automation system.

Now if you wanted some fancy two-way communication that's something else entirely, but you didn't mention that aspect.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#355983 - 30/10/2012 22:37 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Now if you wanted some fancy two-way communication that's something else entirely, but you didn't mention that aspect.

I did. I want to know the state of that door (up or down). There have been projects that enable garage door control over ZWave using existing products and a tiny amount of wiring that I could easily do myself and might end up trying. But it still only activates the door. There's no way to know if it's open or not. There are ZWave door/window sensors that some have tried to use on garage doors, but that doesn't apparently work so well.
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#355984 - 30/10/2012 22:59 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
sn00p
addict

Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
It's dead in the water from day one for home automation, the reliance on the cloud has done that.

"Garage door opens, turn on lights"

If this all happens locally then fine, but it doesn't in the imp world.

if your Internet is down or the imp cloud is down its not going to work.

It's like the inverse of that old saying "the lights are on but nobody is home".

A local mesh system for home automation seems a much better bet to me.

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#355985 - 30/10/2012 23:00 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: Dignan
we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation
Make-shift? Touching a couple of buttons on my watch to set the count-down timer is more of a make-shift than buying and programming and paying a monthly fee for a device to send data to the internet so that it can call my cell phone and send me a message when my clothes are dry?

Rube Goldberg would be proud!

tanstaafl.
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#355986 - 30/10/2012 23:08 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
Originally Posted By: Dignan
we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation
Make-shift? Touching a couple of buttons on my watch to set the count-down timer is more of a make-shift than buying and programming and paying a monthly fee for a device to send data to the internet so that it can call my cell phone and send me a message when my clothes are dry?

Rube Goldberg would be proud!

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.
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#355993 - 31/10/2012 05:32 Re: electric imp [Re: tonyc]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: tonyc
They really have to get it right out of the gate, with some big-name manufacturers and some seriously useful features.


Agreed, more than the technology actually working and being very cool without a "killer app" it will be hard to take any hold.

I'd like to automate a few things in my home, and like the idea of just slipping in an EI when I am ready, but what worries me about the idea is that the manufacturer needs to put in a log of redundant electronics in say a light switch on the assumption that at some point someone might want to internet enable it in the future. That to me sounds like an excuse to charge a lot more for a light switch. And it would need to be in everything, already, which is of course impossible.

From a consumer point of view I need to see what this thing can do, and if I were EI marketing team that is what I would be doing right now, reworking existing devices to show the world what it's all about.

Cheers

Cris

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#356001 - 31/10/2012 11:17 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
I'm surprised at the number of people here using the timer feature on their drier, and are not using the moisture sensor, which would have an unknown length of time.

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#356002 - 31/10/2012 11:21 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
The real place for the EI is in things like "web enabled thermostats". Such gizmos already exist, and often have poor interfaces. Selling it with an EI socket should reduce the initial purchase cost, and if someone wants to web-enable their purchase then they buy an EI and insert it. If not, they don't. Easier for the manufacturer, easy for the end-user.

Perfect application for it.
I wonder what other situations have as good a fit, though?

I mean, who the heck would want internet access in, say, a TV, Radio, Phone, or home alarm system? smile Just hard to imagine until somebody does it and others pile cool stuff on top.

Cheers

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#356015 - 31/10/2012 14:25 Re: electric imp [Re: mlord]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
The real place for the EI is in things like "web enabled thermostats".


This is the exact solution I was thinking of here at home, that and my electricity meter.

But I don't see anyone even coming up with a working model of these solutions. I think someone needs to do that in order to kick start the whole thing. I guess someone is working on that right now maybe ???

Cheers

Cris

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#356016 - 31/10/2012 14:49 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
I'm surprised at the number of people here using the timer feature on their drier, and are not using the moisture sensor, which would have an unknown length of time.

I can't speak for others, but when I discuss this there's a difference between "timed dry" and what I'm referring to as the timer. I use the automatic dry modes and I agree, the time can vary (making it difficult to know whether that initial time the dryer gives you is correct). My washing machine also has a timer that starts when you start a load, but that time changes depending on the load size.
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#356024 - 31/10/2012 15:25 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
Ah, so it displays an estimated time to completion, I had a GE washer that did that, it was based off of the time it took todo previous loads of the size & temp, nice feature, except that washer kept blowing main boards smile

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#356026 - 31/10/2012 16:28 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
Ah, so it displays an estimated time to completion, I had a GE washer that did that, it was based off of the time it took todo previous loads of the size & temp, nice feature, except that washer kept blowing main boards smile

That's what ours does. The estimated time (when you start the load) does vary. Sometimes it's over, sometimes under. But unless we're doing something that retains a lot of water (such as bedding, towels, or a lot of jeans), it's accurate enough that when it says 40 minutes, you can come back in 40 minutes, and your dress-shirts are ready to pull out and hang up.

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#356027 - 31/10/2012 16:29 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
Ah, so it displays an estimated time to completion, I had a GE washer that did that, it was based off of the time it took todo previous loads of the size & temp, nice feature, except that washer kept blowing main boards smile

I was going to say that Tony apparently never owned GE appliances when he wrote this wink

Originally Posted By: tfabris
There are tons of devices that would benefit from being web-enabled, if only the people who made those devices could write decent software. There was always a lot of talk about web-enabled appliances, but it turns out most of the appliance manufacturers are only good at making reliable appliances.

I had a friend with a GE refrigerator that must've had the mainboard replaced half a dozen times, it took two after the warranty period expired before he just got a new fridge.

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#356028 - 31/10/2012 16:33 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
Originally Posted By: Dignan
we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation
Make-shift? Touching a couple of buttons on my watch to set the count-down timer is more of a make-shift than buying and programming and paying a monthly fee for a device to send data to the internet so that it can call my cell phone and send me a message when my clothes are dry?

Rube Goldberg would be proud!

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.

Except for the monthly fee part.

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#356030 - 31/10/2012 16:50 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Wow, I'm a little surprised by the negative reactions here.
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer).

Really? A text message? *shrug*

My dryer (that I bought >5 years ago) has a little display with a count-down timer. I can set an alarm on my phone from the display on the dryer, if I don't want to miss the end of the cycle. No imp necessary, no text message necessary, no cloud necessary, no subscription fee necessary. (And if I *do* miss the end of the cycle, then I can just use that "touch-up" feature.)

This seems like an odd argument: we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation because my device works a certain way that others don't.

No -- I'm saying that it's such a trivial problem to overcome with current, existing features that, as a manufacturer, I don't think there's any business value in spending R&D time or money for it. Do I think there's a segment of the market that would want this feature? Certainly. Is there a segment of that segment, for whom this would be a make-or-break feature in a purchase decision? I suppose. Is that segment big enough for me to want to chase? Not likely.

But here's the other thing -- I generally know how long my dryer cycle takes, anyway (well, I used to, before I got married, and my wife took over the laundry duties), so even without the timer, I knew when to go hang up my clothes.

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#356032 - 31/10/2012 17:00 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Dignan

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.

Yes, but even if you only count all those steps once, it's still a LOT more effort. And even not considering the effort, it's also a LOT more costly.

This makes it not worth it IMO. (not in this particular example anyway)

edit: didn't notice canuckInOR also mentioned this point.


Edited by Archeon (31/10/2012 17:02)
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#356034 - 31/10/2012 17:08 Re: electric imp [Re: BartDG]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: Archeon
Originally Posted By: Dignan

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.

Yes, but even if you only count all those steps once, it's still a LOT more effort.

Sorry, but I disagree. I strongly believe in spending a decent amount of time and energy up front in order to make little things easier for me in the long run. You may disagree, but that's your preference and there's products out there for you.

Besides, we're fixating on one feature of one product here. I have to imagine that there's more stuff we could think up for this.

And then there's the bigger issue: you all hate Hugo.

wink


Now, I'll agree with an earlier statement that putting home automation in the cloud might have its problems. It's difficult enough to get signals to devices quickly enough when everything is based inside the home. I wonder if there's a way to do a combination of the two...
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#356036 - 31/10/2012 17:27 Re: electric imp [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Here's the other thing. People who have huge bucks to spend on automation don't do their own laundry. Poof. All problems solved with the addition of a house keeper.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#356039 - 31/10/2012 18:37 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
don't do their own laundry.
Funny you should mention that. I am arguing with my wife about whether to buy and install a washer/dryer. It will cost about $25,000 pesos (~$2,000 USD) (and yes, I have it tallied in an Excel spreadsheet smile ) because of where it has to be installed, which will involve running gas pipes, replacing an old, inefficient hot water heater, chopping a hole in a masonry wall, digging up a sidewalk and the street and getting the municipality to connect directly to the sewer line.

Presently, we are paying $40 pesos (about $3.20 USD) every two weeks to have someone else wash, dry, and fold our clothes. I could barely pay to heat the water, pay for the gas to dry the clothes, pay for the electricity to run everything, and buy the soap if we had our own washer/dryer. It would take about 25 years to amortize just the cost of the installation. Factor in the cost of the estimated service life of the machines and it's a no brainer.

"But it's so much more convenient having our own washing machine" she says. Considering that the entire scope of her laundry duties for the past three years has been to ask me "Would you drop the clothes off at the lavendería when you walk the dog this morning?" I question that "convenience" argument.

However, since I am the man of the house, the head of the household, the boss of the place and the one who makes all the important decisions... I guess we'll probably be putting in a washing machine and dryer sometime in the not too distant future. smile

tanstaafl.
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#356040 - 31/10/2012 19:06 Re: electric imp [Re: tanstaafl.]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
"But it's so much more convenient having our own washing machine" she says.

I'm betting that what she's really saying is that one time, she was down to wearing her reserve underwear (that stuff you keep, and wear out of necessity in the event everything else is dirty).

If she wants convenience, switch to a lavenderia that has pickup and delivery service.

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#356249 - 14/11/2012 14:14 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Doesn't this do about the same as what ElectricImp does?
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Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup

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#356250 - 14/11/2012 14:52 Re: electric imp [Re: BartDG]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Not really. These French guys, obviously high on glue, seem to be setting up a parallel network along side the internet, operating at data rates slower than a 1981 modem. This network would then be connected to the internet at some point. To serve... no point.

One word for the project as described: useless.

The radio tech being created may have other purposes, but the entire project just seems like overly complicated nonsense. It's like someone using a rube-goldberg type contraption to solve a very simple problem.


Edited by hybrid8 (14/11/2012 14:55)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#356252 - 14/11/2012 16:34 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
The radio tech being created may have other purposes, but the entire project just seems like overly complicated nonsense. It's like someone using a rube-goldberg type contraption to solve a very simple problem.

I think it's a different application space. I can easily imagine the desire for low-power, low-data remote sensors, for which WiFi or current mobile communication technology isn't practical.

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#356253 - 14/11/2012 17:27 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Sure, but setting up a country-wide infrastructure for these devices to communicate through? Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet or even cellular modem?

I can't even put into words how absolutely ridiculous I think the idea is. Ugh.


Edited by hybrid8 (14/11/2012 17:58)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#356254 - 14/11/2012 17:46 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet?


You're assuming that Internet access is ubiquitous. It's not. Cellular access is. It becomes more interesting when you consider developing countries instead, such as India. Which is what these guys are into.
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#356256 - 14/11/2012 17:57 Re: electric imp [Re: Roger]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
But this system doesn't work over cellular. It works over their own network which currently exists nowhere but their lab.

You can replace wifi/ethernet repeater/adapter in my previous post with 3G/2G modem if you'd like. Then you're on global cellular systems. Edited the post to reflect that.


Edited by hybrid8 (14/11/2012 17:58)
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#356257 - 14/11/2012 20:13 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
Power consumption is a big issue, as is cost, which appears to be what they are going after. Given that it would take only 1000 antennas to cover France (674,843 km2, 260,558 sq mi), which presumably would be able to leverage many existing towers - and logically once they hit a tower they'd jump on an internet backbone, much like cell phone towers, but different.
It is not a huge leap, but they do have a chicken & egg situation, so they'll need some very useful use cases - maybe better version of the road sensors that are used today for monitoring speed and surface temp. (How is this done today?)

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#356258 - 14/11/2012 23:19 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I'm glad someone brought up cost. How will they pay for the continued maintenance and development of this network? Subscription/usage pricing for equipped devices probably. How much do they think it's going to cost to implement this proprietary wireless hardware into a product?

Sorry, it still sounds like a bad idea on all fronts, including power usage and cost. If they had consumers in mind and they wanted a more viable product, they'd do a retail bridge.
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Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#356259 - 15/11/2012 06:00 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
maybe better version of the road sensors that are used today for monitoring speed and surface temp. (How is this done today?)


Standard IP-over-GSM, just as with the systems that monitor street lights, power transformers, and all the other stuff out there.

Disclaimer: one of the companies I am involved in, Viola Systems does that for the smart grid space, and has done it for motorways and other infrastructure.

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#356332 - 19/11/2012 03:24 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: Cris
Originally Posted By: tonyc
They really have to get it right out of the gate, with some big-name manufacturers and some seriously useful features.


Agreed, more than the technology actually working and being very cool without a "killer app" it will be hard to take any hold.

I'd like to automate a few things in my home, and like the idea of just slipping in an EI when I am ready, but what worries me about the idea is that the manufacturer needs to put in a log of redundant electronics in say a light switch on the assumption that at some point someone might want to internet enable it in the future. That to me sounds like an excuse to charge a lot more for a light switch. And it would need to be in everything, already, which is of course impossible.

From a consumer point of view I need to see what this thing can do, and if I were EI marketing team that is what I would be doing right now, reworking existing devices to show the world what it's all about.


Oh we have lots of interesting things - mouse traps, lighting, power control, power monitoring, motion sensors, environmental sensors, irrigation controllers, etc etc. Some of these make more sense with an imp card (eg the mouse trap), some make more sense with an imp integrated (also an option). One reason we're not shouting too much about things is that we're rushed off our feet with all the vendors we're currently working with and so drumming up yet more business hasn't been a priority, though that'll obviously change smile

There are many devices on their way which are imp enabled. Early next year, when the commercial service officially starts, there will be everything from pet feeders, access control, HVAC (very consumer) to elder monitoring (service-based) to parking lot access control (very commercial)... and a lot more inbetween.

None of this working (well, communicating... they still run code without wifi) when the internet is down is not an issue for these applications; the vendors accept this because the systems they were thinking of were already 100% internet-tied too - no loss there.


Edited by altman (19/11/2012 03:38)

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#356333 - 19/11/2012 03:27 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
Originally Posted By: Dignan
we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation
Make-shift? Touching a couple of buttons on my watch to set the count-down timer is more of a make-shift than buying and programming and paying a monthly fee for a device to send data to the internet so that it can call my cell phone and send me a message when my clothes are dry?

Rube Goldberg would be proud!

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.

Except for the monthly fee part.


The fees are very reasonable for vendors, though. A vendor can end up paying $1/year for connectivity - low enough to bundle into a BOM.

What they get for the money is much more than they could make themselves - reliable, secure, able to update firmware remotely, connection monitoring, server-side agents, etc etc. Even if you're making 100k devices a year, you're not going to be able to build, operate and maintain a service for a comparable amount...

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#356334 - 19/11/2012 03:35 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Sure, but setting up a country-wide infrastructure for these devices to communicate through? Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet or even cellular modem?

I can't even put into words how absolutely ridiculous I think the idea is. Ugh.


The whole idea of an IoT network isn't stupid; the thing which IMO marks this one out as strange is the ridiculous data rates, though something may have been lost in translation. Max of 1kbit/sec... for what, the fabric or a million devices at once? It's possible this important scale factor has been overlooked in their documentation. The lowest rate of 10 bits per second is unlikely to be useful even for low power applications simply because you need to keep your device powered for a minute to send a header & packet smile

There are whitespace startups like Neul, who are making a robust wide area solution to compete with cell companies, targeted squarely at IoT. This makes a lot of sense, and they have significant data rates... can't wait to see their silicon as a rackmount transceiver is a bit big for me!

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#356335 - 19/11/2012 03:35 Re: electric imp [Re: Roger]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: Roger
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet?


You're assuming that Internet access is ubiquitous. It's not. Cellular access is. It becomes more interesting when you consider developing countries instead, such as India. Which is what these guys are into.


Wouldn't a cellular imp be nice... mmmm.... smile

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#356342 - 19/11/2012 09:54 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Beema
new poster

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 2
I'm very excited about getting a load for light switches as it's going to be a lot cheaper than rewiring my house.

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#356550 - 27/11/2012 17:05 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer). But the imp doesn't do that by itself, it needs the circuit to integrate it with the dryer. You need both bits before it's useful.


Hey, look what I stumbled across:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/11/...-when-its-done/
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#356551 - 27/11/2012 17:13 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Reading that article to the end, their problem was depending on an accelerometer. What it really needed was a condenser mic. Much easier to hook up, program, and tune.
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#356554 - 27/11/2012 19:19 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

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#356555 - 27/11/2012 19:26 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.
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#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#356556 - 27/11/2012 21:56 Re: electric imp [Re: Shonky]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Shonky
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.

Solved in one of two ways:
1) Put the imp and sensor into an intermediate plug that the washer then plugs into (rather than directly into the wall socket).
2) Open the panel on the back where the power cord enters the appliance, and add the sensor where the wire is already split. YMMV.

From a productization standpoint, the first would be simplest, but then you have to make products that fit various outlet standards, if you want global reach.

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#356557 - 27/11/2012 22:37 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: Shonky
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.

Solved in one of two ways:
1) Put the imp and sensor into an intermediate plug that the washer then plugs into (rather than directly into the wall socket).
2) Open the panel on the back where the power cord enters the appliance, and add the sensor where the wire is already split. YMMV.

From a productization standpoint, the first would be simplest, but then you have to make products that fit various outlet standards, if you want global reach.

Sure except you are now well beyond just a current transformer/hall effect sensor on the power cord and into much more regulated and more dangerous area for the home hacker...

I see the imp is supposed to be more integrated with the device. There are already ZigBee devices that can do the power pack option albeit without the fancy backend/cloud system.
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#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#356629 - 02/12/2012 13:29 Re: electric imp [Re: Shonky]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
...power monitoring/control plugs are also on their way for the imp, as we've been working with some asian vendors to seed this market. Looking for when the power drops and stays low for a period is likely the very best way to detect a wash being finished.

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#356631 - 02/12/2012 13:56 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Meanwhile, if I were to hack up something like this today, I'd just use a photoreceptor taped over the "active" LED on the washer's control panel. Way simpler and more effective than trying to calibrate a motion sensor. smile

But it would cover up one of the blinkin' lights, so perhaps not to everyone's taste. (un)Fortunately, our washer has about a dozen or so of them.

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