My heart goes out to any and all family members involved in the horrendous act of terrorism we saw this morning happen not 15 minutes from where I work/live.

I wanted to make sure that everyone who I've met from the DC area, if they are okay, and weren't near the attack when it occured this morning.

This is so unreal.

(O|||||O)

Me too....

Obviosly there are some really f...ing weird people in this world.

TommyE

Me too...

Some years ago a plane crashed into a building in "De Bijlmer" in Amsterdam, that was an accident, but this... This is too crazy for words... I was totally shocked when I saw it on TV.

Edwin de Vaan
mk2 rev.7 # 080000263 (queue 1232) 6+20Gb blue/red

This is the most sureal thing I have ever seen. Never in my life did I ever expect to see some things, the fall of the Berlin Wall for example.. and the attack here is one of them.

As far away as Dallas Texas is from New York, the entire city here is in shock. 4 hours later, there is no traffic on the streets and everything is shut down. For the first time in my life there is absolutely no air traffic of any kind. No helicopters, nothing. This is the strangest thing I have ever experienced.

I am considered 'essential personel' here at my work so I have yet to try to go home. I am still in shock.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

I am still here. I work away from DC....I was watching the news about the first plane hitting then we saw the second one....i can watch horror movies with tons of gore but this sickened me....

Squid2k1
---
18GB of Green Mk II Fury - Fast As A Shark

Just to add my personal condolences to anyone who is affected by, or knows someone affected by this act of terrorism.

I hope that it is some help to realise that all of the world are watching and thinking of you all at such an ugly time.

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

I most sincerely hope that no one from this board, part of this family, has been involved in this barbarism.

I am sad to acknowledge, however, that there will be a lot of families that will have been touched by tragedy.

I have no words for it, because I have never had to try and deal with something like this - the Bijlemeer crash, Lockerbie, Omagh.

Have strength, you are supported by everyone on this side of the pond.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I also want to express my condolescence to everybody who's or whose family got affected by this horrible and atrocious attack.

Bush just announced he'll hold a speech at 2 am CET. I'm curious what he's going to say so l'll stay up.

It seems the shock has not merely affected the USA.
Here in Germany, near Frankfurt, life also seems to have paused.

Mk2 40GB #090000592

Thankfully, I don't know anyone harmed, and nobody I know knows anyone harmed, though that might change by tomorrow.

My mom works at National Geographic and her offices were closed. She convinced my dadto close his office and they are at home safe in Northern Virginia.

Right now I'm at school in Williamsburg. The William & Mary campus was pretty much closed today. As I waited in class for our teacher, the 10 or so people out of 20 that were there were dead silent. This is not a good day.

I see the Pentagon all the time when I'm home in Northern Virginia. I was also in NY for my birthday at the end of July. It's hard to believe the skyline I saw then will never be the same....





DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

My condolences to anyone touched by this tragic event. This event has indeed touched the world.

I have only this one piece of advice for anyone who knows people affected by this. Don't hold back on wishing your symplathies. Not saying anything because you don't know what to say doesn't help. The people who have lost loved ones or friends in this DO need to hear your support, no matter how you put it.

This is so sad.

Murray 06000047
Just increasing my post count

This is... entirely sickening. It hasn't sunk in for many of us. Watching the footage, I was convinced that it was a scene from a cheap Hollywood movie... this will clearly be a changing event in the US and maybe the world. I only pray that it is not a seed of hatred. Although not on the same level as those who lost their lives or loved ones, all Americans and our allies are victims in this. Last night, I was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

I am past the shock stage and now boil in anger. Being the son of a career naval officer I am pretty patriotic. Times like this is when I am proud to see our nation and the people of the world put aside their differences and unite.

Something else, I say when we are 100% certain who is responsible, blow them away. Overkill. Turn whatever piece of land they occupy into a parking lot. Just my humble opinion.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

I'm the son of Army, and went to the Air Force for a period of time.

Green Glass parking lots MIGHT be overkill. MIGHT.

Personally, I see a quick progression:

a> Afghanistan turns Trash Bin over.

OR

b> Afghanistan allows American forces to take Trash Bin.

OR

c> We SOLVE their civil war for them. And Take Trash bin. In multiple parts.

Anyone who knowingly backs these animals should be dealt with. And don't bother contacting the diplomatic channels to do so.

I've got a friend in DC who is at the present, unaccounted for. My father has more.

MIGHT be overkill. Right now, I can live with that.

Anyone who knowingly backs these animals should be dealt with.

Amen. I'm sick of countries harboring these animals inside their borders, and then coming onto the newswaves saying that they are abhored to hear about these acts of Terrorism against the United States, and that they had no knowledge or involvement with the acts at all. They are as guilty as the one who orchestrated the entire event. Of all the things Bush said in his address last night, I think the part about "no distinction will be made between those who commited the acts of Terror and those who harbor them" was the part that rang most true with me.

Nail all of their asses to the wall. On pay-per-view. Reality television at its worst.



(O|||||O)

Last night, I was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

I don't know about the place your friend lives, but here in Croatia everybody is genuinely shocked. It's not just public TV and state officials; I listened this morning to a radio station that targets teenagers and young adults: they were still swamped by phone calls from listeners expressing their outrage, sadness and sympathy with America or simply asking to hear 'Born in the USA', some of Pete Seeger's patriotic songs or something like that. In impromptu polls people mostly cite our primeminister's words, 'After this, there is no returning to business as usual', and president's, 'There is no neutrality'.

Have strength!


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

I'm leaving in Switzerland (a little country in the middle of europe for peoples who don't know). Here almost everybody was chocked. All the bells of the country rang at 1PM in memory of the victims and all flags were down.

For now nobody know who did that. So wait and see what will append. Remember Ocklahoma City. At the time everybody were showing the palestinian, do I have to remind you that it was an american who does that !!

I can agree with Pache.. dont jump to conclusions about who is responsible. Wait. But from what I understand, the evidence is mounting and all fingers point to Bin Ladin. I can only imagine that the news released here is the same that my friends across the ocean are hearing. Personally, I am convinced its him.

Once we are certain, I say cook him over a slow flame with an apple in his mouth for all eternity. Sew his butt closed (can I say that here?) and wait for him to explode. Launch him in the next space shuttle, put him out for a space walk, and let the entire continent of North America watch as he burns up on re-entry. Cruel and unusual? Yes.. but vengence is a dish best served cold.

On another note, this BBS is one of my favorites. All of us from all over the world get along here just fine, with music and our empeg/rio decks in common. The users here seem to be of above average intelligence, and all of us seem to know good and evil when we see it. I want to thank everyone from over seas for their support in these difficult times.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

Let's not make a martyr out of him either....

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

A very interesting point was made by a politician on the radio in the UK; Bin Laden was *funded* by George W's father when he was fighting the communists in afghanistan - only then he was called a "freedom fighter".

The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" obviously depends on if they're doing your dirty work for you, or are senselessly killing innocent people.

I was rather shocked by that nugget; I'm assuming it was true. Anyone else know the history?

Hugo

From what I remember, GB had the CIA train the forces in Afghanistan to fight against pockets of Russian Communists they feared there. Then the US left them high and dry once the cold war funding dried up and support dried up. There were stories that the CIA may have captured key people in the groups they trained to calm that situation but it fueled it instead. Bin Lauden probably has a good grudge against the US because of it and is highly trained by our own people.

One key thing John Clansy mentioned was about how people are comparing this to other attacks; specifically Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the military. This was an attack on civilians. How you term it all depends on perspective. "Terrorism" "Freedom fight" "War" it's all the same thing. One person killing someone else over possessions or idealism.

What I fear is the counter-attack from the US that willfall on people involved with this attack on civilians. You can tell that Powell and GWB have been waiting for something like this to happen to flex their muscles. I think they wished for too much.

My hopes and wishes for a better life and world go out to everyone in hopes that one day we can all live in peace without terror.

The US did back Afghanistan when Russia was invading, much like Russia helped Vietnam against the US.

I don't know if Osama bin Laden was involved in that conflict, I don't remember much about it. You are correct though, the term is dependant on who the actions are against, and the perception of the viewer.

In reply to:

---

A very interesting point was made by a politician on the radio in the UK; Bin Laden was *funded* by George W's father when he was
fighting the communists in afghanistan - only then he was called a "freedom fighter".

The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" obviously depends on if they're doing your dirty work for you, or are
senselessly killing innocent people.

I was rather shocked by that nugget; I'm assuming it was true. Anyone else know the history?

---

BBC News also mentioned Bin Laden's history in slightly more detail:

<URL:http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm>

As an aside, the commonality we have here such that waaay off-topic stuff like this is acceptable is a sure sign that a newsgroup/list/bbs has crossed from a simple information exchange to a real community. That is what sold me an empeg. (Well, that and the technical capabilities, and the expansion potential, and ...)

--
Toby Speight - 040103385

In reply to:

---

was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

---

I am living in Germany and I can say that pretty much everybody who could was stuck in front of the TV for the whole afternoon (started at 3pm here).

I was watching everything live from shortly after the first crash on until 1am and I know that a lot of people were watching for even longer.

I can hardly imagine that somebody was left untouched by this.

Till

Two more things that occured to me after reading the whole thread:

- Germany (and I guess, at least in Europe, all other countries) have expressed and still express their condolences. Flags are lowered, people go to church and lots more

- Let's please not make any assumptions about who it was until we know for sure and let's not try to get any prejudices. Also, even though that sounds pretty hard for those actually involved, don't do an overkill revenge. That would lower you to the same niveau as the terrorists. As it seems, this attack was not done by a country, but by a group of people. I understand that the responsible persons have to be found and punished, however, this has to be done in an "acceptable" way. Whether there is / might be / has been a country involved backing up this group is a different question and has to be treated differently as well.

- Bin Laden has (according to various news sources) indeed been funded by the USA some time ago

Till

I think this song says alot, especially in this time of tragedy...

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
-John Lennon

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful?

Dave Clark
Austin, Texas
12g Blue MK2
S/N was 80000329 -> now 90000970

I agree that often people are quick to accuse, but it's not like the FBI is going to chase cats up trees. I'm pretty sure the leads they are following are pretty strong, and regardless of whether Bin Laden did this act, I still think he's a horrible human being and deserves only the worst.

What I am more seriously concerned and scared about is our own counrty. Now that there are these suspicions, I'm worried about how people react towards our own citizens.

I've heard rumors that in parts of the country, people of Middle Eastern descent have become targets of ignorant, hate-filled Americans. What's in some ways worse is that I've heard this coming from several institutions of higher education, where I would assume people would be too intelligent for this. I attend William & Mary, a school I consider one of the best in the nation (don't know how I got in, but that's another story). There was talk about one freshman girl from Bangledesh on a bus back to her dorm off campus, when others on the bus started yelling horrible things at her. This sickens me. You wouldn't think that at such an institution, in such an innocent place as Williamsburg, there would be college students so pathetically stupid.

To make matters worse at this time, my own girlfriend is Iranian. Frankly, I fear for her. I hate that I am part of a racial majority that would be so ignorant and so hatefull towards other inoccent American citizens. I am very nervous and scared for her.

Hopefully people around here will try to calm down and think about who the good people are. Sadly, this is one of the truly horrible aspects of terrorism, that we don't know who are with us and who are not. Maybe people will calm down in the days to come and recognize, with the help of the FBI, who the real enemy is.

Sorry, I had to vent.

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

Well, there is no secret the that western world is "sponsoring" a lot in the
middle east. For starters, there are lots of oil there...

TommyE

You make a good point. We must not forget that these acts were perpetrated by a specific, organized group of terrorists. These acts were not perpetrated by a race or by a religion. It would be ignorant to condemn an innocent person on that basis.

___________
Tony Fabris

It's like the historians say, the winners write the history books, and decide the difference between a lawless coup and a glorious revolution. Don't know for sure about Bin Laden, but sure sounds logical. Bush Sr. & Reagan both supported Afghans in their freedom fight against Soviets... diff. world then.

What I still can't completely grasp is why they hate us so.... can't imagine Americans dancing in the streets (see THAT video yesterday?) after an unprovoked attack like this in Mid-East. We have a perspective gap... that's where we need to look for the fix ....retaliatory airstrikes don't made a dent in solving this one. Military action to remedy this sort of ongoing hatred is like treating a virus with a sledgehammer.

-Doug
Mk2-12G Blue (Now A/R Green)

Although I can (barely) grasp the concept of their hatred of us, what I can't grasp is how this particular act could possibly advance their cause. The only thing this can do is bring the might of our military crashing down upon them.

Yesterday, when talk of the possible suspects first came up, I did a web search and located some FrontLine interviews on PBS.org, which are transcripted here. Reading some of this material may help shed some light on the subject, although it is still difficult for those in our positions to fully grasp.

___________
Tony Fabris

My wife and I are ok, being among those you've met in the DC area.

PLEASE let the experts deal with this. Yesterday in quiet Brisbane, Australia, a school bus carrying Muslim children had rocks thrown at it.
A 12 yo girl called a radio station talkback and was just about in tears because she and her freinds thought WW3 might break out. The DJ handled it very well, to his credit.

As much as I want the perpetrators brought to justice, I will not be the one to judge anyone. I hope you encourage your friends to do the same and calm anyone you see who acts irresponsibly.

I hope the world powers work this one out. The last thing we need is vigilante groups administering punishment to whomever they choose. I admire Bush's speaches to this effect.



Murray 06000047
Just increasing my post count

Here's an article from MSNBC from 1998 that lays it out pretty well.

Here are links to a couple of RAM files (1,2) of Dave Emory's (KFJC, Los Altos Hills) broadcast called "What does the W in George W. Bush Stand for". I'm not meaning to jump on the Bin Laden bandwagon, only to point out Bush's links to Laden's family and business ties. You won't hear about any of this on CNN. It's very long, but well worth the listen.


I also suggest listening to the stream from KQED and KPFA.


|| loren.cox ||

The US did back Afghanistan when Russia was invading, much like Russia helped Vietnam against the US.

Exactly. US backed genuine resistance agains occupation forces, whatever anyone might choose to think about their respective ideology (and I personally would be hard pressed to decide which was worse ). Likewise, US intervention in Vietnam pushed the country much deeper into Soviet bear hug (that seem to be common mistake - if it was mistake - in US past foreign policy: Cuba, Nicaragua, Cambodia - OK, it was China, not SU...)

But what I was going to say first of all is that I am again impressed with our community.


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

It's like the historians say, the winners write the history books, and decide the difference between a lawless coup and a glorious revolution. Don't know for sure about Bin Laden, but sure sounds logical. Bush Sr. & Reagan both supported Afghans in their freedom fight against Soviets... diff. world then.

As I said elsewhere, whatever US real motives were in Afganistan, they supported genuine resistance against an occupying force. I remember seeing a photo in Newsweek of a heavy Soviet attack-fighter (MiG-25 or something) over Afghanistan with caption 'Have they learnt nothing from Vietnam?'

What I still can't completely grasp is why they hate us so.... can't imagine Americans dancing in the streets (see THAT video yesterday?) after an unprovoked attack like this in Mid-East. We have a perspective gap... that's where we need to look for the fix ....retaliatory airstrikes don't made a dent in solving this one.

They are second or third generation born in refugee camps, and are being constantly brain-washed into believing that the sole guilty party is 'American devils and their Israeli lackeys'. It is obvious that partition plan of '48 that created Israel was designed to be unstable (mostly by British, who, no doubt, hoped to keep interest there). What those idiots dancing in the streets don't understand is that this horrible attack (as well as those before) is designed to make sure there is never peace in their homeland (unless it is simply a work of a madman on extreme power-trip, without a political agenda, which I doubt).

As for Americans dancing in the streets, sorry, but don't be so sure. I did a quick sample of several newsgroups (starting with the obvious one - alt.books.tom-clancy), and some posts in 'nukem!' style are frightening.

Military action to remedy this sort of ongoing hatred is like treating a virus with a sledgehammer.

As I said, I love you, people!


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

I just whipped up a little website "Tribute" for this atrocity. It should load quickly. No ads, no banners, no counters... just my small tribute for the sorrow of the civilized world. This was my first attempt at a webpage, so don't make fun of me too much, okay?

Tribute


George

I am a mixture of so many emotions at this point.
A sense of pride for my fellow citizen and support for this great country and a feeling of distrust that my government, "of the people" isn't true to sound motivations or intentions.
I truely don't know who is the greater evil, while I certainly can't condone the recent actions.

That's the best summary of how i feel that i've seen. Thanks for putting is so succinctly.

PS... mind if i quote ya?


|| loren.cox ||

I deliberated on how I wanted to say that. I tried to keep it short and sweet.
If you like it, run with it.
I still don't think it fully contains my emotions. Only in the future can we accurately try to contemplate the present.
I just wanted to represent this community as a torn American citizen. I appreciate the comment made about how this BBS has outgrown just being about a product. I think it's a good snapshot of our diverse world. At least the European and American influence.
I didn't want to miss my opportunity to be part of this history.

What martyrs are we still dealing with today besides maybe Jesus? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm genuinely interested in understanding how much power a martyr has over a people. Does a martyr's influence last longer than a couple of years in most cases? Anyone have any examples?

-Ryan.

I'm not into 'arab bashing', but they are some of the most fanatical people in the world. except neo-nazis and other extremist groups.
I have seen doco's where arab parents say they would gladly send thier own childeren out with bombs strapped to them if it would aid thier cause. These people are prepared to go to extreme lengths to put their point across. They believe absolutely in martyrdom. In the recent suicide bombings, the faces of the bombers were posted as a hero in their home town.

I don't believe that Bin Laden was directly responsible but troops he trained did this act. The Afghani Taliban regiem did not directly allow this, in their own way both parties are responsible. Bin Laden for issuing the Fatwah in the first place, giving permission to extremists to take these sort of actions.
But again where do you draw the line. Is the US in some way responsible by the same logic for training Bin Laden? I'ts a mess. The only real solution I see is the prosecution and extermination of any people who DIRECTLY assisted in this act.

Death by paper cuts might be suitable. This was a highly planned and thought out attack. Even finding a direct culprit will not ease this sorrow.

I know many others have noticed this, there isn't a single BBS that hasn't mentioned this catastrophe.



Murray
I made a conscious descision in a semi-conscious state

Muzza, you have to remember that the extremists responsible for yesterday's horrors do not represent any large group of people, Arabs or otherwise. By saying that "Arabs are some of the most fanatical people in the world", you are making a dangerous and incorrect generalization.

That's the very problem that Dignan17 and I were trying to point out. It is far to easy to equate a race or a religion with terrorism. You have to be very careful not to do that, in a delicate time such as this.

___________
Tony Fabris

But that's just it.. these suicide bombers are heros, not martyrs. They are praised for their heroic action and then forgotten pretty quickly. I think that most martyrs are believed to be among the religious "chosen" and the followers believe that they will be closer to their god if they carry out the prophecy of their martyrs.

But I'm having trouble thinking of many significant martyrs that drive people for more than 5 years. Jesus is an exception. And it's hard to believe that Jesus as a man ever told anyone to kill and rape millions in his name, but sometimes a martyr is used for other motives.

Still, Jesus seems to be a pretty rare case. Destroy the leader of this terrorist group (binLaden or whomever) and his people may rally around him for a while, but as long as an equally strong leader doesn't step in, the followers will dwindle. Usually there is not a clear replacement leader, which causes a battle for power, and creates doubt in the minds of the followers.

Someone please step in with other examples of long-standing martyrs.

-Ryan.

But I'm having trouble thinking of many significant martyrs that drive people for more than 5 years.

Most martyrs are famous only among their followers. In Northern Ireland (a place where the kind of group-vs-group hatred that Dignan was fearing has long been endemic), each side still venerates their dead paramilitaries from decades ago.

Peter

I have an other exemple of a martyr, but again he never ask people to kill. He only ask his people to show passively that they don't want foreigner to control in his country any more.

Is name was Gandy and the foreigners were the Brit.
Nevertheless he was killed by an indian.

I think that martyr can't be a military leader.

But again, as it was already said in this board, don't amalgamate arab and terrorist. It's a real tragedy and I hope we never see this again.

Daniel

A lot of the Christian saints are martyrs as well. I'm sure that other religions/groups have their martyrs too.

I wouldn't consider these hijackers martyrs though. Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary (see www.yourdictionary.com) has a definition:
martyr
2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
but I don't think these people valued their lives, and what was the principle?? Hatered or the wish to inflict harm on others is no principle. No, these people aren't martyrs!

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

I can agree with a lot of points brought up here. I do want to address a some of them.

While I am proud to be an American, as I assume everyone here is proud to be who they are wherever they are from.. it saddens me to hear stories of innocent people being 'attacked' after the WTC disaster. Someone mentioned in Australia that rocks were thrown at a school bus of children because of their heratige.. and at one college slurs were shouted at another student. These people are obviously innocent and do not deserve to be treated like that. I am not for this type of behaviour at all. This is nothing but ignorance and hatred. I would like it known that while there is hatred here, not all Americans hate blindly.

It is true that in the past the United States funded the Afgan rebels in their fight against the Soviets. It is also true that the United States funded Sadam/Iraq in their fight against Iran. Those were different times. I also find it interesting that they both have turned on us as if we never helped.

Stereotypes would be best if avoided in conversations of this nature.. not all Arabs hate the west. But Bin Laden does.

While I consider myself to be fairly level headed I still have anger, and still want more than swift justice. Once proven, I still want his head on a stick on display in front of the White House. Is this not an acceptable punishment in their part of the world?

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

On the night this happened, I couldn't sleep and decided to go out for a walk.

There's a bridge over the A1 motorway behind the Campanille hotel where we have had the owner's days, that goes between Amsterdam and Germany. As such it's a major road freight artery and it is never really still. About a mile away it joins with the main North South motorway, the A 28, that takes all the national freight traffic to the North of the country. The junction is always visible from this bridge at night since it is a huge cloverleaf, and you can see no less than 6 traffic streams merging. In the summer evenings, the combined noise from the two motorways can be clearly heard when we're trying to barby/party in the back garden, and it can be remarkably intrusive.

I walked up to the bridge about 1 AM, and was quite surprised to find...

... absolutely no traffic at all. Nothing, no lorries, cars, nothing. Even the intersection was empty.

I stood up there for about half an hour until I got too cold, then walked home. It has affected everyone.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Charles the First of England, illegally executed by by his parliament.

The Irish martyrs from the 1921 uprising.

Likewise, those martyred in the 1690's attacks on the Catholics by the incumbent King of England, Prins Willem van Oranje.

The people killed in the Bloody Sunday Massacre of 1970.

These are only ones that I personally am aware of from my personal experience in life; it is not that they begin as martyrs, but that they become revered over the years in stories passed between father and son. Over time, they imbued with a heroism they probably didn't posses, but memory (and story telling) embellishes them with time.

The guys crashing the jets into the WTC, regardless of their evil intent, will be feted not only for any religious meaning, but also for being the first to do it.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Centuries, Peter. When I was there I was astounded at how people could relate detailed stories of battles from the 1690's and ealier, passed down by word of mouth by families and inside communities. I was told that to stop the old stories being passed and stop the hatred propogating would take the extermination of three generations of people; which of course, would start the entire cycle again...

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Is this not an acceptable punishment in their part of the world?

I don't know, may be it is.But fot sure, it is not an acceptable punishment in *our* part of the world . .

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Centuries, Peter. [...] I was told that to stop the old stories being passed and stop the hatred propogating would take the extermination of three generations of people

I was going to add to my previous message a link to a BBC News page on the Ardoyne/Holy Cross conflict, in which a leading figure said something like "The curse of Northern Ireland is whataboutism, the reaction to any concession that starts 'But what about...' and names some violent event of years ago."

But I couldn't find the page again when I looked. Anyone got a reference?

Peter

Charles the First of England, illegally executed by by his parliament.

The Irish martyrs from the 1921 uprising.

Likewise, those martyred in the 1690's attacks on the Catholics by the incumbent King of England, Prins Willem van Oranje.

The people killed in the Bloody Sunday Massacre of 1970.

These are only ones that I personally am aware of from my personal experience in life; it is not that they begin as martyrs, but that they become revered over the years in stories passed between father and son. Over time, they imbued with a heroism they probably didn't posses, but memory (and story telling) embellishes them with time.

The guys crashing the jets into the WTC, regardless of their evil intent, will be feted not only for any religious meaning, but also for being the first to do it.

In this case, those handfull of morons celebrating in the streets of Jerusalem and Gaza will probably mention Black September of 1970 (king Husein crackdown on Palestinian bases in Jordan in the wake of their attempt to topple him) and Sabra-Shatila massacre in 1982 (when Israeli-backed Lebanese 'Christian' militia killed more than two thousand Palestinian refugees).


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

As I was reading through all these posts and seeing for myself how the hearts and minds of people from every nation in the world are with us here in America, I was reminded of John Donne's famous words:

"No man is an island, entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the Main. If a Clod should be washed away by the sea, all of Europe is the lesse, as well as if Promontory were, as well as if a Manor filled with thy friends or thine own were. Any man's death dimishes me, because I am involved in mankind; therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

Thank you, everybody.
Adam

"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care..."
-office space

I do want to see those responsible held accountable for their actions.
I would certainly hate to see a country bombed, trying to flush out a suspect.
President Bush has ralied world leaders for support and so far has unanimously gained that support.
If a country chooses to assist a terrorist by harboring them, I think the world should punish that country in humane ways, such as with trade sanctions or other ecconomic punishments.
Perhaps, if violence is necessary, it should be directed at the leaders of the offending countries not the innocent people trying to go about their lives.
It will be a sad day if America chosses to return hateful brutal acts with the same.

The one martyr I had in mind was Joan of Arc. Alive, she was an ineffective leader. Dead, she was a rallying point - an inspiration for those she represented. That is why Saddam Husein is still alive. The US could have killed him by bombing more (it is illegal for the US military to target specific individuals with the intent of assassination btw). But, they he would have become a hero. So, we tried (unsuccessfully) to have him killed by his enemies within his own country. Bin Laden has religious and political clout. I personally think that killing him would only strenghten the resolve of his supporters. But, this is just one aspect of the "big picture."

Remember, everyone thought that tthe Oklahoma bombing was from "muslim fundamentalist" when in fact, it was American militiamen.

And please, please don't generalize a whole ethnic group, religion or region based on what one small group did. The thinking could lead one to say all whites in southern US (KKK), Sicilians (mofia) or Catholics (Northern Ireland conflict) are fanatics.

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

Where & how do you start to convey the feelings?

What words can you use to describe the sadness you feel when you think of all those people this sickening tragedy has touched?

The lives it has ended.

The terrible waste.

This has truly touched every corner of our global community.

I don't believe in violence & killing. However, I do believe that the perpetrators of this evil deed must pay for this. Whoever they are.

Just my thoughts...

Marcus (beaker)
32 gig (various colours)

That is why Saddam Husein is still alive. The US could have killed him by bombing more (...). But, then he would have become a hero.

Actually, they did try to take him out. I remember seeing a very specific breifing on the subject, where Norman Schwarzkopf specifically said that they targeted military installations they thought he occupied, with the sole intent of killing him.

Unfortunately, the time-lag factor of intelligence prevented them from hitting their target. They didn't have any trouble knowing where he had been, and they sometimes even knew where he was at any given time. However, it takes time to mobilize forces and plan attacks, and by the time they attacked that building, he'd moved on.

I fear that any action made against the terrorists will have similar problems.

My point is that, although I don't know anything about the "legality" of attempting the assasination of a military leader, I don't think they are worried about martyring someone. They are interested in achieving a much more practical objective. If you're fighting an enemy in a war, you can't hesitate because you're afraid of martyring your enemy. That would be foolish.

___________
Tony Fabris

>...Once proven, I still want his head on a stick on display in front of the White House

Actually, I don't mind my tax dollars going to house the people responsible permanently in an American prison (hold the KY). Put a webcam in his cell so we can all enjoy seeing the ugliest man in prison ass-rape our terrorists family style. If American prisoners treat pedophiles and Jeffrey Dahmer like they do, these terrorists have a lot of misery to look forward to.

-Ryan.

That's pretty funny to think about.

Just a note to say that there will be a European Wide three minute silence tomorrow 14th at 11:00 (BST)

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

I am still angry, and want swift action. I do not literally want to go in to Afganistan and level the place, I do want military action. I think that the United States is fairly certain that he is personally responsible for this horrible action and I want him dead.

This does present some problems. Killing him will likely not change much. He is well connected, and has many well trained recruits in some two dozen other countries. It is unlikely that terrorism will simply go away with Bin Laden gone. Their way of thinking will still exist.

The only way we can be sure would be to wipe out the entire 'species' and the United States would be no better than the Nazi's, back in their day with the hallocaust. So that option is out.

If I understand their way of thinking, then the only way to end all of this is to pull our troops out of that region of the world. That is one main point that angers them, that Western influences are 'disrupting' the Muslim world. But we can't do that either and survive with our own way of life. Madmen like Sadam would then control the worlds supply of oil, and many of us westerners rely heavily on that oil.

My point? I dont see any end to this. Maybe thats why I am not an elected political official.. but killing that madman will make me feel better. I still want his head on a stick, complete with an apple in his mouth.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

I am one of the fortunate people that didn't lose a loved one or friend in the recent tragedy. I am, however, still feeling a lot of anger about this.

My heart goes out to those who have suffered in this time.

I am not saying bin Laden was behind this, we'll leave that to the professionals. Stating that, I thought I would pass this along. Someone posted the following on the i-Club:

rm -rf /bin/laden

Moderators: Please feel free to delete this post if you feel it is inappropriate.

-Trevor

-----
Mk 2, Green 12GB 080000349

NL: The entire country just stopped again today. An eerie, dead silence; almost every house we have driven past today had either the Dutch or the American flag at half mast - even more than would be normally seen here on the Queen's Birthday. There is no doubt there is genuine sorrow here.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

In reply to:

---

I was going to add to my previous message a link to a BBC News page on the Ardoyne/Holy Cross conflict, in which a leading figure said something like "The curse of Northern Ireland is whataboutism, the reaction to any concession that starts 'But what about...' and names some violent event of years ago."

But I couldn't find the page again when I looked. Anyone got a reference?

---

Peter, I think that this is probably the page you meant.

I have no wish to get into any discussion about Northern Ireland, since I live here, and could not even begin to pretend to be objective about the place!

I flew over to Manchester on Tuesday morning, and was sitting in a training room on a course when my brother started sending SMS messages to my mobile. The first one said that two planes had crashed into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon (by way of explanation, my brother breaks bad news to me via sms, and it is a shockingly blunt way to do it - I heard that Douglas Adams had died in much the same way) My first thought was that they were small single seater planes, as I had recently been reading of such a collision with the Empire State Building in the past. I think the next message read (and I am quoting as best I can from memory) "Jesus, one tower of the World Trade Centre has collapsed" At this point I have to admit that I thought he was pulling my leg, and I replied asking if he was watching 'Thunderbirds'... I just couldn't believe it was possible that that could really be happening.

On a coffee break I phoned home to see if he was being serious, and he assured me it was all real and was unfolding as we spoke. A few minutes later I got two messages... "The other tower has collapsed" and "Another plane heading for Washington" That last message was just about the most chilling five words I think I have ever read, and I wish I had never had to read them.

When I got to my hotel room later, and turned on the television, only then did I realise that it had happened and I had to believe everything I had learned in what has to have been the most bizarrely detatched experience I can ever recall, getting news like that in sub-160 character chunks is just plain scary. I was glued to CNN & the BBC news for the rest of the night, and indeed every night this week, from 5pm until at least 2am every day. My heart and my prayers go out to everyone across the world who has been directly affected by this (except the bastards who caused it - if they rot in hell for eternity it won't be long enough!)

Relating this whole disaster to events close to home is probably unavoidable to me, but I can't seem to get it in any sense of scale that makes sense to me. I have lived through many years of atrocity piled on atrocity, one side attempting to outdo the other in a seemingly unending cycle, so perhaps I am somewhat numb to it here, but to see those huge towers crumble, and worse, to see people who obviously felt they had no other alternative but to leap from over 1000ft to their certain death was something I will never forget...

My final comment can only be that I firmly agree that whoever planned and carried out this act must be tracked down and removed from the planet with all speed. However, it worries me somewhat to hear my prime minister, Tony Blair, say that he is going to be tough on terrorists so soon after he released bombers, murderers and similar terrorist scum from our prisons to walk my streets, serve in my government, and possibly join my police force... well, I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest... I just hope the American people don't learn the painful lesson that Tony Blair says one thing if it makes for a great speech, but doesn't seem to have the actions to back it up...

Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...

I live in Chile, where 11 september is a very difficult day, for political reasons. People in my country are still against each other for things happened some 30 years ago, some full of hatred, some not so. But then again, 11 septembre is a very violent day around here.
But this year, it was kind of peaceful , for everyone was so impressed with the atrocities happening in USA.
My prayers go , especially for the victims and their beloved ones, and for the perpetrators too, may the Lord show them their wrongness. And for all of us, who now will live in a different kind of world. I mean, it was not the best world possible by three days ago, but now it will be way worse.
Terrible.

Here in the USA, we have been inundated with news of our immediate situation. It has been very difficult to hear any kind of world news. Can you tell us what has been happening in Chile?

___________
Tony Fabris

Oh, wait. I re-read your post. I thought you were saying that THIS sept 11 was violent in Chile. Now I understand that you meant that sept 11 is USUALLY violent but it wasn't this year.

___________
Tony Fabris

For those who don't know, Chileans commemorate death of president Salvador Allende, killed in a military coup on Sep 11th, 1973. The fact that sympathy with America in WTC tragedy quelled usual disputes is even more significant when one knows that many Chileans blame USA for the coup and resulting brutal rule by general Pinochet. Obviously, the sheer magnitude of this terrible, mindless act of violence overshadows all historical issues and differences one might have with USA.

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

Very well informed, very precise indeed. Good to see people having a decent knowledge about some issues long forgotten by others. Thank you.
One final comment, just FYI : It's now been established very clearly that president Allende shoot himself. But the point about that sad day is how things reached to a point of no return that no one believed would happen. And now the world, and that's my fear right now, is heading to such a point.
Oh well. We'll see how this evolves.

As a way of reinforcing my point, I offer this CNN article:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.mesa.shooting/

On initial reports, it seems (although this is a very recent happening and the details may not be fully accurate) that an innocent man in Arizona was murdered by a redneck who didn't know there was a difference between a Sikh and a terrorist.

It now seems that the simple act of wearing a turban can get you shot in this country. I am ashamed to be an American when I read these kinds of reports.

___________
Tony Fabris

I agree 100% with the above post. One of the greatest assets of the United States is our diversity - but at the same time so many people here have a problem with it. Never having been persecuted because of my race I can only imagine how it must feel.

I have never supported anyone that hates, and it pains me when I hear about it now, especially in this time or mourning. These ignorant people need to learn that there is a difference between a Muslim and a common terrorist.

On another note, as each day passes and I talk to more and more people, I suppose it was inevitable that I would meet someone who lost a loved one in the tradgedy.. and that day came. The news only stirs my anger more. I still call for military action - only now I am calm enough to want to wait and do it right. Rushing in will only get a lot of innocent military personel wounded or killed needlessly. I say plan it out, set it up, and then pave them over strategically. Vengence is a dish best served cold.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

Pictures are, indeed, worth a 1000 words:

http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=34709834&m=4640913172&p=1

For the whole of last week, I was completely away from the empeg board due to the tragic course of events. I was in Los Angeles attending a business conference when I awoke in my hotel to the news. The L.A. convention center was quickly evacuated and all events canceled. I was able to acquire a rental car for the long 6 hour drive home. I am from new york city, so am more directly affected than others. So far I made accounted for most of everyone I knew, including my mother who works a few blocks away from the world trade center.

The WTC holds special meaning because I used to work on Wall Street, and would travel through the concourse every day, eat there very often. Even before that, because the WTC contains one of the cities largest train stations, I must have spent a good portion of my life traveling through the building. For the past 6 or 7 years I would make a yearly pilgrimage back to NYC to collect Broadway tickets from the world trade center TKTS, and go for food and drinks at the restaurant on top. To give you guys an idea of the immensity of damage done, each building is considered to be a small city of its own. Each building has its own zip code. There is an entire shopping mall along its concourse. The atrium ceiling is tail enough to fit many multi story buildings inside the lobbies!

So when I made it back home, I went into work. My company tracks real time information, including real time positions and movements of flights in U.S., Canadian and Mexican airspace. Our engineers quickly pulled the relevant information on the four flights from our databases and released the initial raw data to the New York Times. (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/national/13LOGA.html) we followed by by reconstructing all four flights into animated AVIs which we released to the press (CNN, CBS, etc). We're doing what we can to track these bastards down.

Calvin

The WTC holds special meaning because I used to work on Wall Street, and would travel through the concourse every day, eat there very often. Even before that, because the WTC contains one of the cities largest train stations, I must have spent a good portion of my life traveling through the building.

I know what you mean. I spent only a week with a company in John street and lodging in Hilton within the WTC complex itself (New York Vista, I think - I am trying to figure out from satelite images what happened to it). Yet, the Center has grown to me in that short time. I enjoyed watching crowd hurrying to their workplaces, men and women in business suits wearing sneakers, with dress shoes around the neck or high heels peeking from the bag. I ate excellent cheesacake in an Italian fast food in the mall, spent hours admiring NYC panorama from the roof...

I never expected these memories might become so irreplacable and sad....

I surely hope they rebuild it, stronger and safer if possible, all insurance and other concerns aside. Not doing so would mean acceding a victory to terrorists.

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

In reply to:

---

I surely hope they rebuild [the WTC], stronger and safer if possible, all insurance and other concerns aside.

---

Funny - I think the opposite. It should be replaced by a World Peace Gardens, an island of green low-rise to escape from the tumult of Manhattan. I think that would make a better memorial, and frustrute the terrorists' desire for chaos and disunity amongst ordinary people.

--
Toby Speight - 040103385

The outside of the building had steel supports every 1 meter apart. This kept the building from falling over on the spot, and when it finally collapsed, it collapsed straight down instead of horizontally. The internal supports were well insulated and held up for 40 min before the heat from the fire melted them.

Sean