Heh, nothing like refuting a flame with a one-liner.

Oh, and I guess this is a one-liner, myself. Somebody flame me... I really ought to be initiated around here.

As an important aside. SaraFem is Prozac (same drug, dosage, etc.). Do a search on the internet and caution your wife, girlfriend, daughter or mother. It will be prescribed for them without them being told what it is.

> Heh, nothing like refuting a flame with a one-liner.

Was that a flame? I didn't use any bad words. I felt it was just an observation. I'm sure if he looked at himself real hard he would see it to be true.

> Somebody flame me...

Naw, you have to work at it to get a flame here. And I mean work REALLY hard.

I guess I was talking about Genixia, too.

At these other message boards that I post at, people get flamed in a heartbeat for the most random things, all the time. We've even got a whole separate board *just* for flames. It's really fun, let me tell you. Especially when you get flamed for being subservient and weak-willed because you back up a friend. Or maybe that's just "criticism," or maybe I'm just bitter.

Phew! Well, that wasn't necessary.

Anyway, I don't mean to go on some big spiel about how things are elsewhere. It's just interesting to note the differences. I don't yet know who's who here... but it doesn't seem glaringly apparent. But I wouldn't know, I'm a serious newbie. Or not even that, yet, I'm still a stranger.

this is absolutely rediculous, depressions is a disorder that demands treatment for those that suffer from it.

my brother suffers from depression, anxiety disorders, and addiction (as said before often hand in hand) and he is on a number of medications just to keep him halfway normal during the day, if it were not for his medication (I hate saying it) but he would probably be dead by now by his own hands. fact is, I don't have depression and I don't really understand it, but that's the whole point, we think about taking our lives and realize it's not a smart thing to do, thinking of our hurt loved ones missing us. where as a person with depression has no regard for his own life, they honestly believe that nobody would give a [censored] if they were to die. for you to say that it's all in their head and they can control it makes me sick. hey I wish my brother could control it, but I've seen him go through anxiety attacks and sleep all day every day of the week from depression far too many times for me to think that he has any control over it.

I personally hope that you don't have a kid that has depression, because it will probably kill itself because you won't get it proper medical attention because you'll simply tell them to "get over it" or some other stupid phrase that DOES NOT WORK!!!

I rarely post much, and I definitely try not to offend anybody, but this thread has pissed me off beyond belief. I understand why you think how you do, but you need to realize that it IS a medical disorder that deserves attention. I used to think the same way since that's how I used to look at it, from my eyes only. as stated before, you need to put yourself into somebody elses shoes. we have some value of our own life, they do not. and it's hard for us to understand.

I'm done
eli

Bumped this thread back up for this link which says drug company studies show placebos are more effective than antidepressants. link . The human mind never ceases to be amaze.

That would seem to indicate that the problem is just in the patient's head.

Personally, I think you can heal any illness with your mind, whether it's depression or the flu.

Next time you have cancer, give that a shot.

-Zeke

Yeah, I would love to see that.

But actually, he has a point, but not to the extend that he thinks he has.
Working on an illness using your mind (for example: imagine cancer as little monsters, and your immune system as (nicer looking) monsters that eat the cancer monsters) has proven to _help_ cure the illness. And regarding depression, it might as well cure it in many cases.
however, the study mentioned earlier is regarded as extremely imprecise. No information is available on the patient groups. There are forms of depression that are proven to be of organic cause (like a lack in production of endorphin*). Most doctors I talked with think that the study was only checking the effect of placebos vs. drugs on those patients that clearly did not suffer from that kind of depression. If this is right, the thought that placebos work as good as real drugs wouldn't be amazing anymore.

Yet, I would really like to see one of those "you can heal any illness just using your own mind" people handle some illnesses, most notably AIDS and cancer.

cu,
sven

The subconsious is what helps in the placebo - not active thought.

smu, do you read the bible?

Sorry I bumped this up. I just thought the article helped explain how both sides of the issue are probably correct. I do believe anti-depressants are overprescribed by an order of magnitude by ill informed primary care physicians who are being pushed by drug reps. Until their patent ran out, Eli Lilly sold $2.6 BILLION of Prozac a year.

There's also the question of whether counselling played any role in the patients given the placebo. Some depression is caused by physical or mental traumas experienced by the patient a long time previous to the symptoms becoming apparrent. Antidepressants alone aren't going to fix this, although they are going to help with the daily feelings of Helplessness and Loneliness. But a placebo could also help with these feelings as the patient perceives that they are getting help, and with counselling or group support helping to remove the loneliness aspect, that could be enough to break the spiral.

Right, they _are_ overprescribed. They still have their uses though. One example:
I am getting an anti-depressant along with my pain medication. If I wasn't taking the anti-depressant (which also raises the pain tolerance level), I would need to take more than twice as much pain medication (tramadolhydrochloride in my case). I would sure like to skip both drugs, but realistically, I can't. I am not suffering from depression though, and never have. But to be honest: I sure would, if I were to stay at my current tramadol dose and had to leave out the anti-depressant. But that would simply be a pain-induced depression.

Anyway: Anti-depressants are prescribed way too often. Just like antibiotics. But the latter are certainly a bigger problem.

cu,
sven

Well, I could think of three answers:

• If you mean wether I actually read it regularly: No
• If you mean wether I believe in god and christian ideals: Yes
• If you mean wether I really wished you would deal with AIDS and/or cancer just using the force of your mind (and subconcious): Well, this is a longer answer, but basically: Not really. The longer answer: I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses. I don't really wish any person on earth anything bad (well, there might be exceptions I don't know off yet), but I lost a good friend to cancer, and most certainly only because his parents believed in the force of mind and wouldn't let any doctor treat her with actual, proven to be working, medicine. No surgery, no irradiation, no chemotherapy. And her lung cancer was found in a very early stage, just one single spot of cancer, not even 1cm in diameter. It could have been taken out so easily... And this is why I wished someone was finally proving these people wrong (not that they would believe that prove).
  

Anyway, what I really intended to say is this:
You don't need to treat the common flu with antibiotics, that is like shooting a fly with an atomic bomb. But you can't treat every illness just using your mind and subconcious either. One should really take a path between these extremes.

cu,
sven

Hi.

The subconsious is what helps in the placebo - not active thought.

Right, but just like active thought is influenced by the subconcious, the subconcious is influenced by active thought.

cu,
sven

I agree with most of what you said, Sven, especially the part about some people refusing treatment for treatable illnesses. It's very sad when people can be easily cured with real medicine, but prefer to believe that pseudoscience or mysticism can cure them, and therefore get worse or die. I'm sorry to hear that you know of one such case personally, I've only read about them.

I did want to correct one thing, though:

You don't need to treat the common flu with antibiotics, that is like shooting a fly with an atomic bomb.

Actually, from what I understand, the common flu can't be treated with antibiotics at all, so the fly/bomb analogy is a little off. The fly would still be killed by the bomb, but a flu virus wouldn't be killed by an antibiotic. (Antibiotics kill bacteria, influenza is a virus.)

Tony, you are right. But there is one little thing about the common flu some people tend to forget: Many people that have the flu also have an inflammation (usually sinusitis). That is where antibiotics can come in handy.

But still: You are right, antibiotics don't help with the flu itself because it is caused by a virus.

One more reason why a physician shouldn't prescribe antibiotics to treat the flu. But still many do.

cu,
sven

Well the reason I asked is because Jesus said you could move mountains if you have enough faith.

In reply to:

---

I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses

---

Maybe that's why those people don't suffer from those illnesses in the first place.

I'm not saying deny medical treatment, that wouldn't make any sense. A man can go over a month without food if he's determined, but if the food is there then eat it.

I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses
Maybe that's why those people don't suffer from those illnesses in the first place.

Sorry to disappoint you, but a pretty famous austrian former physician did. I can't remember the name, but he convinced the parents of a 7 year old girl to deny medical treatment and to follow his rules to help her subconcious to fight the cancer down. When a judge finally ordered that the child was to receive treatment, it was too late. Well, sarcastic as life is, that austrian man died of cancer himself, about 3 years later.
But generally: You simply don't hear much about these people, and this is especially true when they actually become ill.

I'm not saying deny medical treatment, that wouldn't make any sense. A man can go over a month without food if he's determined, but if the food is there then eat it.

Well, what I am usually saying is that if god didn't want us to use machines or medicine, he wouldn't have given them to us (by making us able to invent them).

Well the reason I asked is because Jesus said you could move mountains if you have enough faith.
If you ever care to investigate the circumsances under which he said that, you will find out that he was talking in his usual pictures and was also talking about changing other peoples minds. I can't find the exact place in the bible where he said that, so this is all from (limited) memory.

cu,
sven

Jesus never said any such thing. Paul did, in his first letter to the Corinthians. And, in fact, he didn't say that one could, but was using an extreme example as hyperbole.

1 Corinthians 13:2 (NIV): If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Ah, I somehow knew my memory failed on me. Thanks for clarifying.

cu,
sven

MATTHEW 21:18 Now early in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 21:19 After noticing a fig tree by the road he went to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. He said to it, “Never again will there be fruit from you!” And the fig tree withered at once. 21:20 When the disciples saw it they were amazed, saying, “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” 21:21 Jesus answered them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive.”
-------------------------------------

MARK 11:20 In the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 11:21 Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered.” 11:22 Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God. 11:23 I tell you the truth, if someone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 11:24 For this reason I tell you, whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your sins.”

Ooh. I stand corrected.

21:18 Now early in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 21:19 After noticing a fig tree by the road he went to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. He said to it, “Never again will there be fruit from you!” And the fig tree withered at once

And you worship this guy??

Rob

(that should be good for another 200 posts at least)

1

> And you worship this guy??

Hehe, I was thinking the same thing. Poor tree.

OK, having just joined this forum I have a lot to say, but I'll keep it brief. First I'd like to comment on what Sven said and this should be my only reference to religion.

In reply to:

---

Well, what I am usually saying is that if god didn't want us to use machines or medicine, he wouldn't have given them to us (by making us able to invent them).

---

God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he specifically said that it's fruits were not to be eaten (or at least not yet.) That should be enough said about that.

OK, got that out of the way. Next a little background. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was about 9 and manic depressive when I was 15. My parents were not favorable (not completely against) drugs and I did not get any for either of these (or maybe it was because we were s#&% poor.) At 16 I attempted suicide and was intercepted. It was after that I decided to take control of my life. I still do not take drugs and I am not saying I am cured, but I learned to live with my "differences." For instance, I found if I multitasked it was easier to concentrate on something longer. I learned to pay attention to how I am feeling and when I think I am heading down emotionally, I do things to eaven out my mood (these are things that are specific to me.)

I do not live a normal life, nor would I want to, but I feel I have control over myself if I try hard enough and take care of my body (eat right, stay active.) I would not expect this to work for everyone. I just know what works for me and thought I would voice my opinion. I do not agree at all with Yz33d, it is not something that goes away, but it is something that makes me an individual. I hope my little tidbit helps.

Daniel

When I was a lot younger, I simply could not comprehend this. It's a poor defenseless tree, wtf??! Today I know it's a metaphor in a broad sense, but come on... poor tree is right.

Calvin

Well said. While I would tend to encourage drugs (not actively, just in my mind) to those who are far enough ``gone'' to attempt suicide, there are certain levels of all things. Not everyone should be taking drugs for all of their illnesses, especially when they are problems not caused by external influence (that is, bacteria, viruses, prions, etc.). For example, there are many people who live with untreated epilepsy because the ``cure'' is worse than the disease. (Note that that is not an inept analogy, as many researchers seem to think that epilepsy and depression are very closely related.) The same can be said of depression, succinctly wrapped up in your statement ``but it is something that makes me an individual''. There is certainly reasonable evidence to suppose that taking Prozac, Imipramine, Zoloft, etc. causes you to be a different person, and it is certainly reasonable to want to be who you ``really'' are. On the other hand, evening out those brain chemicals might make you the person you were supposed to be. I don't suppose that there's any empirical way to determine which is correct. It's simply a matter of personal religion.