I just didn't want to interrupt the other thread with this debate, and seeing as it will most likely go on for a bit longer, I am making a new thread. Here is what's been said:



posted by wfaulk:
"And [censored] you, for not having the strength in your heart to pull through. I've had doubts, I have failed, I've [censored] up, I've had plans, doesn't mean I should take my life with my own hands."

I know these are not your words, but they piss me off nonetheless. I'm not familiar with Staind any more than to know I have no real interest in listening to them, and this just galvanizes that point.

Whoever wrote those lyrics obviously has never dealt with depression. Maybe they've experienced sad points in their life that made them depressed, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about full-on medical depression. Kurt Cobain was obviously a manic depressive; you can tell just by how he moved and acted. Manic depressives don't really have the option of ``pulling through''. It doesn't end for any good reason. It just ends. And sometimes it doesn't.

Kurt should have been on anti-depressives. But if he had, he would never have made that music. It's a trade off. You can feel like [censored] for no reason and be talented, or you can take the drugs and be as normal and untalented as everyone else.

As a friend of mine once put it, when you start talking about depression, all of a sudden everyone becomes a Christian Scientist. ``Just get over it.'' It just doesn't work that way.

And I speak from experience. My father was manic depressive my whole life. My wife is clinically depressive. So is my best friend. They are all on drugs. I am, too, but I'm not bad enough that I need to take anything. Also, I'm scared of it. I know how much it changes you, and I'm not going to do it until I absolutely need it. Hopefully, I'll still have enough sense about me (or someone else will) to make sure it happens.

Kurt was too far gone and obviously didn't have anyone. I don't know about Layne.

------------------------

posted by Yz33d:
It's really just all in your head. You gotta take control and not let the demons mess with your mind

------------------------

posted by tfabris:
I hope you meant that as a joke. Bitt is right about depression. And many of the same things that can be said for clinical depression can also be said about addiction. In fact, those two often go hand in hand, as the genes which give you a tendency toward depression will also give you a tendency towards uncontrollable addictions. Only recently are the mechanisms for these conditions beginning to be understood.

------------------------

posted by lectric:
Agreed (with Tony, above). Chemical imbalances are a powerful force to be reconed with. I was diagnosed with adult ADD a few years back, started taking medication (legal amphetamines, cool) and you would not believe the difference it has made to me. There are plenty of people that think that the problem is "just in your head". I had to go to three different doctors just to get an appointment with a clinical psychologist so I could get the meds I need. (HMO's blow). Anyway, just knowing you have a condition is simply not always enough. It is a phisical condition, not a mental one, that causes mental side effects. The same way you can't fix a broken arm or bad acne just by thinking about it, you can't cure an imbalance by wishing it were gone.

------------------------

posted by Yz33d:
No, it's in your head. It's not a disease or a virus. It's a state of mind. You can call it clinical or scientific, but it's something everyone's gotta deal with.

Tell me, what's the difference in taking some of these happy-pills and drinking alcohol? They are both drugs that can be taken to acheive a certain state of mind. Which is fine. But it only covers up yourself. It doesn't cure- only you can do that. Otherwise, you could give a psycho serial killer some morphine and 'cure' his 'illness'. Or you could shoot a tranquilizer into a raging rhinoceros and 'cure' his problem.

But I could be wrong. Go with what works.

I don't think there's any debate to be had, our young friend simply needs to read up on the current medical knowledge regarding clinical depression and its treatment.

It's too easy for a healthy person to look at depression or addiction and not understand it.

Well why don't you enlighten me Mr. Fabris?

heh, yeah I guess, I just wanted it to get aired in an on-topic off-topic thread

I was diagnosed with ADD in 3rd grade. I think the ritalin helped in school when I needed it, but I'd rather be off it. What does that say? I don't know, but the existence of chemical reasons for mental problems is undeniable. Ever heard of serotonin, Yz33d?

What does it take to ban someone who adds nothing of value to this message board, and probably is a waste of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and various other trace elements?

Go read Diven to Distraction. by Edward M. Hallowell and John J. Ratey.

It is specific to ADD, but other imbalances are similar in form and function, though not necessarily in treatment.

I, unfortunately, wasn't diagnosed until I was 24. NOT being ADHD, the problems were not quite so prevalent when I was a child. (And being intelligent enough to graduate Magna Cum without ever having to crack a textbook didn't help much either) It wasn't until college that my attention problems became apparent.

The problem is that there's still a significant number of people who are trying to capitalize on your way of thinking: That it's all in your head and simply talking about it can fix you. These are the Depak Chopras and Scientologists of the world. They use metaphysics and pseudoscience to reinforce your way of thinking. So your average web search on the terms "depression and addiction" will bring up a whole lot of opportunistic crap that isn't actual medical documentation.

A quick scan of these pages seems to indicate that they are medically-based rather than metaphysically-based. Anyone have any better links?

Squirrel, all you have to do is click 'Logout', and then not come back.

Yeah, OK, that link seemed to be a pretty good one on closer inspection. I quote the summary page:

"Depression is not a weakness, but a serious illness with biological, psychological, and social aspects to its cause, symptoms, and treatment. A person cannot will it away. Untreated, it will worsen. Under-treated, it will return. "

Let's take a toothpick for example. A scientist can measure the chemical compound of the toothpick, the environment that the toothpick is in, the forces that will act upon the toothpick, etc., and the scientist can calculate how long it will take the toothpick to decompose.

Now take that a little further. If you could somehow measure every molecule, every atom, every force in a given environment and calculate how they will respond and react to eachother, then you could predict how that enivironment and everything within it will have changed in a given timeframe.

If you could measure every atom, every force, every reaction, in the universe then calculate the outcome, then you could predict anything about the future- it would just be a giant math problem. Now the question is, Is a human being's mind just chemicals and electrical signals and the-like acting upon one another? If so, then it could all be calculated along wth all the other atoms and forces in the universe in this math problem. And so, we find that our destiny is set. The future, every action, is the result of all of these forces acting upon one another.

Or does a human have free will, in control of his own fate?

Fuck you Yz33d. You are obviously just an immature kid with nothing better to do than shit on other people, regardless of the mental, physical or financial harm it may cause.

You like some music. Hey, why should you pay for it? It's your God give right to just copy it. Because you must be special - obviously the concept of right and wrong don't appply to you.

Some-one looks at you strange? Bang. Bang. Ratta-tatta-tatta-tat. Better get those big guns out. After all, it is your God given right to bear arms, and use them as *you* see fit. You weren't by some chance that prick driving down I95 in late September with the 6 foot model rocket mounted on the back of a pickup? The one with "Nuke-Em" painted down it? It really wouldn't shock me.

Mental Illness? "It's all in your head. Just decide to be well." I'll save you some time pondering careers - Don't try to get a job in the medical profession. It's just not up your alley. Actually, don't try to get any job that involves any kind of spiritual generosity. I don't think you're capable. I'd say you're cut out for a job that requires no soul. Maybe something like a dodgy used-car salesman, but unfortunately, I think you'd even give them a bad name.


Do you get the impression that I don't like you?
Do you get the impression that I don't like you?
Do you get the impression that I don't like you?

Is it sinking in yet?

I really don't like you.

This board has some of the most intelligent, witty, tolerant and helpful people that it has ever been my pleasure to encounter. Please don't count yourself amongst them. Your arguments in debates are illogical, your wit is insensitive and base, you tolerance is DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH!!!! You don't have any. And you go out of your way to kill helpful threads, and don't ever offer anything useful in return.

I noticed a thread the other day where due to *your* misunderstanding of Hijack, and apparent inability to read the FAQ you thought there was a couple of bugs. After 2 people had kindly explained what you were seeing, and pointed you in the right direction, you responded with "Well that about explains it."
Have you ever used the phrase "Thank You." ? Just two short words. I'm sure that even you are capable of spelling them correctly. They don't cost you a cent, yet they can buy you a lot. But, that's right, I forgot. You don't need those words - after all, everyone else on this planet exists for and at your pleasure. I really should get on my knees and worship the Lord for allowing me the distinct honor of being able to share this BBS with such an almighty person.

Just where do you get off?


As from now, as far as I am concerned, you don't exist on this forum. You want some help? Don't expect me to help. You want a new Hijack feature? I'm not going to code it for you. You want a mature debate on some subject? Well, that's unlikely anyway, so no change there. Perhaps other people will follow my lead on this, but I suspect that the generosity of the other board members' spirits will prevail. We shall see.

I think you owe a lot of people on this board an apology.

Now grow up. Unlike manic depressives, you really do have a choice. The Immaturiy *is* in *your* head.

as the comic guy would say: Best.. Flame.. Ever...

A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's.

Thank you you pretty much summed up what Ive been thinking. Today I kinda went off on the kid (I say kid yet if he is truely 19 then he is the same age is me) but thats like 3 weeks of putting up with his selfish attitude and his view that "if I dont like it, well then its sht" . I wish I could somehow just block him

"but thats like 3 weeks of putting up with his selfish attitude and his view that "if I dont like it, well then its sht" "

No, you see, I accept your opposing view, on whatever it may be, but because I think differently from you, you feel a need to express pure hatred. There's no need for that.

Yz33d, you are self-centered and completely lacking any kind of empathy. You have several character flaws but I think this is your biggest. You do not have any ability to put yourself in another's shoes, and it shows in many of your most egregious posts. You don't suffer from depression so you assume that others' feeling are irrelevant. You are talking from a position of complete lack of experience and seemingly don't have the ability to empathize with others. You don't make artistic works and can't understand why it would make artists unhappy that you steal it; you aren't an immigrant and can't understand the life they led to get here and sympathize with them. Unfortunately, at 19, you're basic personality traits are probably set.

> No, it's in your head. It's not a disease or a virus. It's a state of mind. You can call it clinical or scientific, but it's something everyone's gotta deal with.

And I suppose schizophrenia is just a state of mind too? You know, most people who get mental illnesses start having symptoms in their late teens or early twenties. Good luck.

Well I guess your main 'flaw' is that you assume that I am assuming something.

Although this may just be stooping down to a level I don't need to be at - Yz33d, your assumption in the previous post that if "you could somehow measure every molecule, every atom, every force in a given environment and calculate how they will respond and react to eachother, then you could predict how that enivironment and everything within it will have changed in a given timeframe" has been proven to be nonsense.

The wonderful field of quantum mechanics shows us categorically that you cannot do that. Even identical situations can end up differing widely.

So do people. You may have no mental problems (although the evidence you present on this BBS indicates otherwise) but some do. Sometimes it is connected to chemical imbalances and needs medical treatment, sometimes it is caused by emotional issues - "all in your head" as you say and needs to be fixed by counselling.

Very often it is the case that the initial cause may be emotional, but self sustaining unless chemical means are used to assist change. Hence anti-depressants.

I know you may just be a youngster, but take a cue from others on this board who are under twenty, but who have a depth of awareness of others and some social maturity.

In other words - grow up a little Yz33d

"The wonderful field of quantum mechanics shows us categorically that you cannot do that."

Yes, so perhaps the latter solution in my post is the correct one.

No, you see, I accept your opposing view, on whatever it may be, but because I think differently from you, you feel a need to express pure hatred. There's no need for that.

Well put. Where on earth did this thread come from? Could it be put back there?

Genixia, this is planet Earth. There are people like you on it. There are people like Yz33d on it. There are people who cannot deal with the preceding three facts. Such people will only ever be frustrated by the Internet and by the world.

Peter

Oh Peter, don't encourage him!

How sad. I actually had something to add to this. A year ago I thought I would have been able to share it, but I won't even bother now.

Yz33d.... Nice to see your making friends here....

Post deleted by Yz33d

Alzheimers- that is a mental illness. Rabies- that is a mental illness.

I can see how I may have upset some people, but I don't mean to minimalize the effects of depression. I am not saying it is something easy to deal with or that you can just snap out of it. I'm just trying to make a distinction between the mental and physical aspects of a situation- and there may not be a difference.

Someone says it's a dirt road, and I'm just saying it may be a gravel road. That doesn't mean it's not a bumpy road.

You're showing a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Clinical depression has been accepted as a physical condition for many years. You're at liberty to disagree with established scientific principles (many of which have indeed been shown to be flawed over centuries of research) but I'd hope you might at least have some basis for your opinions.

So far you have rather given the impression that you believe clinical depression to be somewhat the same as you might feel when your dog dies or your girlfriend dumps you. When you're clinically depressed you don't need any reason at all to feel that you're in an endless pit of dispair. You don't have the option of taking a deep breath one day, saying to hell with this, and making yourself feel better. Emotional instability is just the symptom; the cause is a serotonin or other chemical imbalance - a physical, measurable condition.

I don't speak from experience but I have had this described to me by people who have mattered to me. I sincerely hope nobody close to you suffers from this condition if all you can do is patronise them.

Rob

This is straight out of my college Anatomy book:
"The management of clinical depression is one example of how contemporary pyschopharmacology has supplemented counseling approaches. Some cases of depression result from deficienies of the monoamine neurotransmitters. Thus, they yield to the drugs that prolong the effects of the monoamines already present at the synapses. One of the the earliest discovered antidepressants was imipramine, which blocks the synaptic reuptake of serotonin and norepinephrine. However, it produces undesirable side effects such as dry mouth and irregular cardiac rhythms; it has been largely replaced by Prozac (fluoxetine). which blockss serotonin reuptake and prolongs its mood elevating effects; thus it is called a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI). Prozac is also used to treat fear of rejection, excess sensitivity to criticism, lack of self-esteem, and inability to experience pleasure, all of which were long handled only though counseling, group therapy, and psychoanalysis. After monoamines are taken up from the synapse, they are degraded by monoamine oxidase (MAO). Drugs called MAO inhibitors interfere with the breakdown of monoamine neurotransmitters and provide another pharmacological approach to depression"

Take what you want from this, but Im pretty sure my text book isnt gonna to propagate propaganda.

I'm just trying to make a distinction between the mental and physical aspects of a situation- and there may not be a difference.

For true clinical depression, there isn't a difference. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

The human brain is like a very complicated chemical computer. It can malfunction just like any other part of the human body. If the delicate chemical balances that govern the human brain are broken, you get conditions like depression, addiction, and other mental illnesses. These are illnesses just like Alzheimers or Rabies or the common cold, they simply have different causes. As I quoted before, you can't "will them away", they must be treated.

Heh, nothing like refuting a flame with a one-liner.

Oh, and I guess this is a one-liner, myself. Somebody flame me... I really ought to be initiated around here.

As an important aside. SaraFem is Prozac (same drug, dosage, etc.). Do a search on the internet and caution your wife, girlfriend, daughter or mother. It will be prescribed for them without them being told what it is.

> Heh, nothing like refuting a flame with a one-liner.

Was that a flame? I didn't use any bad words. I felt it was just an observation. I'm sure if he looked at himself real hard he would see it to be true.

> Somebody flame me...

Naw, you have to work at it to get a flame here. And I mean work REALLY hard.

I guess I was talking about Genixia, too.

At these other message boards that I post at, people get flamed in a heartbeat for the most random things, all the time. We've even got a whole separate board *just* for flames. It's really fun, let me tell you. Especially when you get flamed for being subservient and weak-willed because you back up a friend. Or maybe that's just "criticism," or maybe I'm just bitter.

Phew! Well, that wasn't necessary.

Anyway, I don't mean to go on some big spiel about how things are elsewhere. It's just interesting to note the differences. I don't yet know who's who here... but it doesn't seem glaringly apparent. But I wouldn't know, I'm a serious newbie. Or not even that, yet, I'm still a stranger.

this is absolutely rediculous, depressions is a disorder that demands treatment for those that suffer from it.

my brother suffers from depression, anxiety disorders, and addiction (as said before often hand in hand) and he is on a number of medications just to keep him halfway normal during the day, if it were not for his medication (I hate saying it) but he would probably be dead by now by his own hands. fact is, I don't have depression and I don't really understand it, but that's the whole point, we think about taking our lives and realize it's not a smart thing to do, thinking of our hurt loved ones missing us. where as a person with depression has no regard for his own life, they honestly believe that nobody would give a [censored] if they were to die. for you to say that it's all in their head and they can control it makes me sick. hey I wish my brother could control it, but I've seen him go through anxiety attacks and sleep all day every day of the week from depression far too many times for me to think that he has any control over it.

I personally hope that you don't have a kid that has depression, because it will probably kill itself because you won't get it proper medical attention because you'll simply tell them to "get over it" or some other stupid phrase that DOES NOT WORK!!!

I rarely post much, and I definitely try not to offend anybody, but this thread has pissed me off beyond belief. I understand why you think how you do, but you need to realize that it IS a medical disorder that deserves attention. I used to think the same way since that's how I used to look at it, from my eyes only. as stated before, you need to put yourself into somebody elses shoes. we have some value of our own life, they do not. and it's hard for us to understand.

I'm done
eli

Bumped this thread back up for this link which says drug company studies show placebos are more effective than antidepressants. link . The human mind never ceases to be amaze.

That would seem to indicate that the problem is just in the patient's head.

Personally, I think you can heal any illness with your mind, whether it's depression or the flu.

Next time you have cancer, give that a shot.

-Zeke

Yeah, I would love to see that.

But actually, he has a point, but not to the extend that he thinks he has.
Working on an illness using your mind (for example: imagine cancer as little monsters, and your immune system as (nicer looking) monsters that eat the cancer monsters) has proven to _help_ cure the illness. And regarding depression, it might as well cure it in many cases.
however, the study mentioned earlier is regarded as extremely imprecise. No information is available on the patient groups. There are forms of depression that are proven to be of organic cause (like a lack in production of endorphin*). Most doctors I talked with think that the study was only checking the effect of placebos vs. drugs on those patients that clearly did not suffer from that kind of depression. If this is right, the thought that placebos work as good as real drugs wouldn't be amazing anymore.

Yet, I would really like to see one of those "you can heal any illness just using your own mind" people handle some illnesses, most notably AIDS and cancer.

cu,
sven

The subconsious is what helps in the placebo - not active thought.

smu, do you read the bible?

Sorry I bumped this up. I just thought the article helped explain how both sides of the issue are probably correct. I do believe anti-depressants are overprescribed by an order of magnitude by ill informed primary care physicians who are being pushed by drug reps. Until their patent ran out, Eli Lilly sold $2.6 BILLION of Prozac a year.

There's also the question of whether counselling played any role in the patients given the placebo. Some depression is caused by physical or mental traumas experienced by the patient a long time previous to the symptoms becoming apparrent. Antidepressants alone aren't going to fix this, although they are going to help with the daily feelings of Helplessness and Loneliness. But a placebo could also help with these feelings as the patient perceives that they are getting help, and with counselling or group support helping to remove the loneliness aspect, that could be enough to break the spiral.

Right, they _are_ overprescribed. They still have their uses though. One example:
I am getting an anti-depressant along with my pain medication. If I wasn't taking the anti-depressant (which also raises the pain tolerance level), I would need to take more than twice as much pain medication (tramadolhydrochloride in my case). I would sure like to skip both drugs, but realistically, I can't. I am not suffering from depression though, and never have. But to be honest: I sure would, if I were to stay at my current tramadol dose and had to leave out the anti-depressant. But that would simply be a pain-induced depression.

Anyway: Anti-depressants are prescribed way too often. Just like antibiotics. But the latter are certainly a bigger problem.

cu,
sven

Well, I could think of three answers:

• If you mean wether I actually read it regularly: No
• If you mean wether I believe in god and christian ideals: Yes
• If you mean wether I really wished you would deal with AIDS and/or cancer just using the force of your mind (and subconcious): Well, this is a longer answer, but basically: Not really. The longer answer: I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses. I don't really wish any person on earth anything bad (well, there might be exceptions I don't know off yet), but I lost a good friend to cancer, and most certainly only because his parents believed in the force of mind and wouldn't let any doctor treat her with actual, proven to be working, medicine. No surgery, no irradiation, no chemotherapy. And her lung cancer was found in a very early stage, just one single spot of cancer, not even 1cm in diameter. It could have been taken out so easily... And this is why I wished someone was finally proving these people wrong (not that they would believe that prove).
  

Anyway, what I really intended to say is this:
You don't need to treat the common flu with antibiotics, that is like shooting a fly with an atomic bomb. But you can't treat every illness just using your mind and subconcious either. One should really take a path between these extremes.

cu,
sven

Hi.

The subconsious is what helps in the placebo - not active thought.

Right, but just like active thought is influenced by the subconcious, the subconcious is influenced by active thought.

cu,
sven

I agree with most of what you said, Sven, especially the part about some people refusing treatment for treatable illnesses. It's very sad when people can be easily cured with real medicine, but prefer to believe that pseudoscience or mysticism can cure them, and therefore get worse or die. I'm sorry to hear that you know of one such case personally, I've only read about them.

I did want to correct one thing, though:

You don't need to treat the common flu with antibiotics, that is like shooting a fly with an atomic bomb.

Actually, from what I understand, the common flu can't be treated with antibiotics at all, so the fly/bomb analogy is a little off. The fly would still be killed by the bomb, but a flu virus wouldn't be killed by an antibiotic. (Antibiotics kill bacteria, influenza is a virus.)

Tony, you are right. But there is one little thing about the common flu some people tend to forget: Many people that have the flu also have an inflammation (usually sinusitis). That is where antibiotics can come in handy.

But still: You are right, antibiotics don't help with the flu itself because it is caused by a virus.

One more reason why a physician shouldn't prescribe antibiotics to treat the flu. But still many do.

cu,
sven

Well the reason I asked is because Jesus said you could move mountains if you have enough faith.

In reply to:

---

I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses

---

Maybe that's why those people don't suffer from those illnesses in the first place.

I'm not saying deny medical treatment, that wouldn't make any sense. A man can go over a month without food if he's determined, but if the food is there then eat it.

I would like _someone_ who believes that he could deal with any illness just using his mind to suffer from one of these illnesses
Maybe that's why those people don't suffer from those illnesses in the first place.

Sorry to disappoint you, but a pretty famous austrian former physician did. I can't remember the name, but he convinced the parents of a 7 year old girl to deny medical treatment and to follow his rules to help her subconcious to fight the cancer down. When a judge finally ordered that the child was to receive treatment, it was too late. Well, sarcastic as life is, that austrian man died of cancer himself, about 3 years later.
But generally: You simply don't hear much about these people, and this is especially true when they actually become ill.

I'm not saying deny medical treatment, that wouldn't make any sense. A man can go over a month without food if he's determined, but if the food is there then eat it.

Well, what I am usually saying is that if god didn't want us to use machines or medicine, he wouldn't have given them to us (by making us able to invent them).

Well the reason I asked is because Jesus said you could move mountains if you have enough faith.
If you ever care to investigate the circumsances under which he said that, you will find out that he was talking in his usual pictures and was also talking about changing other peoples minds. I can't find the exact place in the bible where he said that, so this is all from (limited) memory.

cu,
sven

Jesus never said any such thing. Paul did, in his first letter to the Corinthians. And, in fact, he didn't say that one could, but was using an extreme example as hyperbole.

1 Corinthians 13:2 (NIV): If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Ah, I somehow knew my memory failed on me. Thanks for clarifying.

cu,
sven

MATTHEW 21:18 Now early in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 21:19 After noticing a fig tree by the road he went to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. He said to it, “Never again will there be fruit from you!” And the fig tree withered at once. 21:20 When the disciples saw it they were amazed, saying, “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” 21:21 Jesus answered them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive.”
-------------------------------------

MARK 11:20 In the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 11:21 Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered.” 11:22 Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God. 11:23 I tell you the truth, if someone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 11:24 For this reason I tell you, whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your sins.”

Ooh. I stand corrected.

21:18 Now early in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 21:19 After noticing a fig tree by the road he went to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. He said to it, “Never again will there be fruit from you!” And the fig tree withered at once

And you worship this guy??

Rob

(that should be good for another 200 posts at least)

1

> And you worship this guy??

Hehe, I was thinking the same thing. Poor tree.

OK, having just joined this forum I have a lot to say, but I'll keep it brief. First I'd like to comment on what Sven said and this should be my only reference to religion.

In reply to:

---

Well, what I am usually saying is that if god didn't want us to use machines or medicine, he wouldn't have given them to us (by making us able to invent them).

---

God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he specifically said that it's fruits were not to be eaten (or at least not yet.) That should be enough said about that.

OK, got that out of the way. Next a little background. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was about 9 and manic depressive when I was 15. My parents were not favorable (not completely against) drugs and I did not get any for either of these (or maybe it was because we were s#&% poor.) At 16 I attempted suicide and was intercepted. It was after that I decided to take control of my life. I still do not take drugs and I am not saying I am cured, but I learned to live with my "differences." For instance, I found if I multitasked it was easier to concentrate on something longer. I learned to pay attention to how I am feeling and when I think I am heading down emotionally, I do things to eaven out my mood (these are things that are specific to me.)

I do not live a normal life, nor would I want to, but I feel I have control over myself if I try hard enough and take care of my body (eat right, stay active.) I would not expect this to work for everyone. I just know what works for me and thought I would voice my opinion. I do not agree at all with Yz33d, it is not something that goes away, but it is something that makes me an individual. I hope my little tidbit helps.

Daniel

When I was a lot younger, I simply could not comprehend this. It's a poor defenseless tree, wtf??! Today I know it's a metaphor in a broad sense, but come on... poor tree is right.

Calvin

Well said. While I would tend to encourage drugs (not actively, just in my mind) to those who are far enough ``gone'' to attempt suicide, there are certain levels of all things. Not everyone should be taking drugs for all of their illnesses, especially when they are problems not caused by external influence (that is, bacteria, viruses, prions, etc.). For example, there are many people who live with untreated epilepsy because the ``cure'' is worse than the disease. (Note that that is not an inept analogy, as many researchers seem to think that epilepsy and depression are very closely related.) The same can be said of depression, succinctly wrapped up in your statement ``but it is something that makes me an individual''. There is certainly reasonable evidence to suppose that taking Prozac, Imipramine, Zoloft, etc. causes you to be a different person, and it is certainly reasonable to want to be who you ``really'' are. On the other hand, evening out those brain chemicals might make you the person you were supposed to be. I don't suppose that there's any empirical way to determine which is correct. It's simply a matter of personal religion.

In reply to:

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might make you the person you were supposed to be.

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Sorry, this kinda hit a nerve. Who's to say what anyone is "supposed to be?" In my experience, you can only be who you are or attempt to be someone your not. I woudln't think anyone on this planet could tell you who you are supposed to be.