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#360507 - 12/12/2013 13:32 Weight Training
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
After more than 40 years of semi-serious bicycle racing, my lower body is quite well developed, and my overall level of fitness is, IMHO, exceptional for my age (68 years). At least, so I thought until I took up my new sport of kayaking.

For the first time in thirty years or so, I am now hanging out with people who are older than I am who are also stronger and more fit. There are women in their mid and late 70's in our kayak club that are faster than I am, at least over the longer distances. When I joined the club I had never been in a kayak before, and in my naivete I told myself, based on my successes in bicycle racing, that in six months I would be the terror of Lake Chapala. Well, it took me eleven months to reach the point where I can keep up with or beat anyone in the club, but only over the shorter distances. In a 20-minute sprint, I am formidable due in no small part to superior equipment -- you'd be amazed at the difference a $400 paddle with a well-engineered 18-foot kayak makes -- but in a trip across the lake and back (about 25 kilometers) I have to go into conservation mode and just hang on and hope to finish.

The "monster" in our club is Tony, 77 years old, and a workout fanatic who spends six hours a week in the gymnasium lifting weights. He invited me to come and work out with him, and in a moment of insanity I reluctantly agreed. I had never been in a gymnasium and he patiently explained to me how the machines and free weights worked. I matched his routine, but lifted only half the weight he was doing, and even that was too much. On the second to last machine he was lifting the maximum the machine could provide (220 pounds) and that wasn't enough so he added another 20 kilograms onto the lift handles. Then it was my turn. I was so fried by then that I couldn't budge it at 100 pounds. So he took pity on me, cut it down to 80, then 60, then 40, then 20, but I was absolutely and completely done for the day. I had nothing left.

That was on Friday. On Sunday I was so stiff and sore I almost needed help getting out of bed. Clearly under Tony's tutelage I was overdoing it. Tony's idea of workout is to do a set of 10 repetitions with enough weight that the tenth lift is absolutely, unquestionably the absolute, red-faced, screaming aloud in agony, maximum conceivable effort after which no possible further lift could be done. Then rest 60 seconds and repeat the set two more times before moving to the next machine.

I don't think this is right for me.

I know almost nothing about gymnasium workouts and weight lifting, but I seem to recall reading that less weight and more repetitions is the preferred method. So the next time I went to the gym with Tony I lifted 1/4 of the weight he was lifting, for twice the repetitions. So, after this long-winded introduction (did anyone actually read this far?) here is the question:

Is lifting 50 pounds 20 times equivalent to lifting 100 pounds 10 times when the goal is not body-building but improving fitness?

I am not trying to sculpt my skinny 160-lb body into a Schwarzenegger look-alike. I am just trying to get my upper body strength and fitness to a level to match my lower body. I mean, if these kayaks were powered by leg muscles instead of arms-shoulders-torsos, I really would be the terror of Lake Chapala. smile

An excerpt from the Mayo Clinic's website contradicts Tony's routine:

Lift an appropriate amount of weight. Start with a weight you can lift comfortably 12 to 15 times. For most people, a single set of 12 repetitions with the proper weight can build strength just as efficiently as can three sets of the same exercise. As you get stronger, gradually increase the amount of weight.

After yesterday's workout with Tony (we go Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays) in which I resisted his "encouragement" to lift heavier weights, I have no trace of soreness and was able to make it through all the machines. Am I now "under-doing" it and wasting my (and Tony's) time?

What are your recommendations?

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#360508 - 12/12/2013 14:12 Re: Weight Training [Re: tanstaafl.]
Phoenix42
veteran

Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
Follow the Mayo Clinic's guidelines, and build up slowly. The last thing you want to do is pull a muscle, tendon, etc. In time you'll be closer to Tony abilities. Though I think the whole " red-faced, screaming aloud in agony, maximum conceivable effort" is really only called for when targeting competitive sports - which maybe your kayaking is laugh

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#360510 - 12/12/2013 16:04 Re: Weight Training [Re: tanstaafl.]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
No, it's not the same. Lifting a lot of weight ten times or so until there is nothing left will make you gain muscle mass, but not automatically also stamina. Sure, you'll be able to endure more, just because your muscles are stronger, but that's not really the way to go in your case I believe.

What is used a lot, is the so called piramid-routine, where you do three routines but use eg. 50 kg in the first routine, then 80 kg in the second routine, followed by 80 kg again in the third routine. It's also not uncommon that in the third routine, more reps are done. That's way you're getting the best of both worlds: you're gaining muscle mass and you'll enhance your stamina.

Also keep in mind that muscles are not built during the workout: this happens in the hours and day AFTER the workout, in the resting period. This is why it's so important to feed your muscles with the necessary nutrients during this period: your muscles will recuperate faster and you'll make better results more quickly. You'll also avoid injuries better.

Which comes to the next big thing: food. Any serious sporter or trainers will back this claim up: food is fuel for your body and especially when working out it's equally important as the training itself. You'll never reach good results if you don't have that area covered as well, so I advise you to look into it. Fortuntely it's not hard to find some really good sports diets on the internet. (like eg. www.bodyrock.tv, but there are lots of others)
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#360511 - 12/12/2013 16:33 Re: Weight Training [Re: tanstaafl.]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
Is lifting 50 pounds 20 times equivalent to lifting 100 pounds 10 times when the goal is not body-building but improving fitness?

From a physics standpoint, yes, you're doing the same amount of work, and expending the same amount of energy, but from a physiological standpoint, no, they're not equivalent. You're depleting your muscles of energy at different rates, and incurring lactic acid build-up at different rates, so your body's response is different between the two.

The former (less weight/more reps) is used for endurance/fitness training. The latter (particularly if you're screaming in agony by the end) is for strength and bulk.

I would recommend you stop following Tony around, and speak to a fitness consultant at the gym. Tell him/her what your goals are, and have them help you devise a workout plan to reach them.

That said, perhaps your kayaking technique could use some refinement...

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#360512 - 12/12/2013 23:34 Re: Weight Training [Re: canuckInOR]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
That said, perhaps your kayaking technique could use some refinement...
Absolutely!

When I kayak side-by-side with Leti (72 year old woman) and match her stroke for stroke using a paddle quite similar to hers, she pulls ahead of me at about one boat length per minute. That's all technique. She does the same work and goes faster. I learn from her just by paying very close attention to what she does.

One boat length per minute doesn't sound like much, it works out to about 0.2 MPH. But at the end of an hour of paddling, that's a long way ahead.

When I first started this sport, I never would have thought it could be so technically complex. I mean, you put the paddle in the water and pull it back. Right? Not hardly! But I'm learning.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#360518 - 13/12/2013 15:47 Re: Weight Training [Re: tanstaafl.]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
Exactly! If it's anything like playing the guitar, then the reason she's faster, is due to her technique: the subtlest differences in the way she forms her strokes and the way she uses the paddle. Things you can't tell just by looking, very tiny differences in the timing, speeed, angle, and paddle depth. Like the guitar, the only way to learn those things is to practice over and over again, and your body will slowly learn the muscle memory of which tiny little precise movements result in more forward motion with less expenditure of muscle energy.

Any beginner guitarist will tell you that it hurts their left hand. Not just the need to develop callouses on the fingertips, but also just the overall muscle soreness. But an experienced guitarist can play for hours before developing any fatigue at all, and the sounds they make are cleaner and more precise than those of a beginner. The reason? The beginner is expending massive amounts of concentration, muscle energy, tension, and pressure, in ways that they don't need to be. Their muscles haven't yet learned that they're wasting their energy in those places. The beginner tries to play a note or a chord, and when it buzzes or mutes unexpectedly, they are (correctly) squeezing harder to get the string pressed against the fretboard more firmly, which results in a cleaner note, but much energy wasted. An expert guitarist can make those cleaner sounds with the gentlest of touches and the most subtle of hand movements, with much less muscle energy expended overall, because years of practice have allowed them to work smarter, not harder. They have learned the exact angle and location to position their fingertips to get the strings to press against the frets precisely right, with the absolute minimum force necessary.

I'm sure that any physical activity which requires any kind of finesse will be exactly the same.
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Tony Fabris

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#360523 - 13/12/2013 18:07 Re: Weight Training [Re: tfabris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: tfabris
I'm sure that any physical activity which requires any kind of finesse will be exactly the same.


In my experience, it's the same with snowboarding -- as you get more experienced, you're able to get the same results with less effort.
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-- roger

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