First working CNC Facia

Well here it is! This is the first working Aluminum Facia prototype. I still call it a prototype because I need to make several tweaks to the CNC code so that I don't have so much post clean-up work (a lot of elbow grease). I'm very happy with how it turned out. I'd like to see what they look like after several hours in a tumbler, it might save me a bunch of work with the polishing wheel. There are some spots where I just can't get the amount of definition as the original but the coolness factor of the aluminum makes me not care. I could get the fine detail by running another cutting pass using a 1/16" end mill but that would add another 5-6 hours to the cutting time (it already took a little over 9 hours). I'm not sure how many I will actually be able to produce as they are so time consuming. I may have to look into out-sourcing to a large machine shop but my guess is that would be a bit expensive.

My next task is to make the required changes to the CNC code and then cut the 3 pieces I promised to the guys at Empeg (sonicblue). I should get those done next week and then will begin taking orders. I should also be getting in a bunch of exotic hardwood any day now and I will make a few samples.

Enjoy!!

Another photo

And another

Nice work. I hope you decide to produce a few so i'll be able to get one :-)

Sean

it looks great !

Looks fantastic. Bet you cant stop looking at it!

One word :WOW!

It looks really cool man! Now, if you'd only see the possibility to also make an aluminum handle...

The handle IS aluminum all we need is some spares from rob to see if we can get the coating off ( as long as he dosen't get annoyed after all the troubles with the early coatings falling off now we want to take them off.

Looking pretty good . I'm not surprised you can't get the same kind of definition as is in the original. After all, they didn't have to worry about tiny corner rads & curved surfaces meeting bosses etc with an injection moulding. But you don't need me to tell you that - I'm sure you were expecting it. The cycle time & amount of finishing shouldn't be a surprise either - all those little bits left that the cutter couldn't get to because of the anti-gouge checking & cusps between step-overs to remove . Hence my desire to design a new one designed with machining, not injection moulding in mind. However, if I'd been in your position I would probably have done exactly the same thing, before designing a new one. From what I can see I think you've done an excellent job considering the constraints - attempting to replicate a part designed for injection moulding by machining from solid. Good luck with your sales .

You might be interested to see what stage I've reached with my own design. I still need to do something with the fixing method. Whether I just use different screws or some other kind of hidden method I haven't looked into yet. I've also got to address details such as how I'm going to affix the Knob & Handle detailing etc. I'd also like to get the Empeg or Rio logo on there too. I've attached the image file of the design so far.

I'd buy that and the screws are okay if not i have some idea to a hidden fixing sytem if you are intrested.

Thanks . Personally I don't mind the screws showing either, but I think it was hybrid8 who thought they could be better. Your ideas for a hidden fixing system would be welcome. I've given it a little thought but I've really been concentrating on other aspects of the design. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something nice & simple which is available off the shelf if possible.

It looks good but the buttons aren't fitting right are they?
It doesn't look like it.
It looks like they're sitting too shallow in the fascia because of the missing recess for the lens in the back.

Hmmm... didn't notice that. They do seem to be sitting too far back don't they. I doubt Rob (CruzThs) has missed out the cutout for the lens from the back though. This would be a major oversight. It's probably that the cutouts for the buttons are a bit undersize and because they have that draft angle on them this causes them to sit further back in the fascia. I could be wrong - only Rob knows at this moment in time. Rob?

If I remember correctly he said that he couldn't do the recess in the back but it wasn't going to matter.

I also don't think that he was going to be able to make the flair angle around the buttons which should create a problem since that is what keeps the buttons in.

I pointed both of these out to him. I don't know if he remembered when he made it but it doesn't look like it.

that looks awesome too. you don't need to hide the screws we can just use silver ones like in the mock up. can't you just attach the handle the same way as the old one ?

I thought Rob meant that he couldn't shell it out like the original. This being a requirement for injection moulding more than any other reason. Rob shouldn't have any problem machining the recess in the back for the lens. That should be the easiest thing of all to machine. As for the draft angle on the button cutouts - well that would be a bit of an PITA without a cutter with the correct angle ground on it. You'd also have to machine the button cutouts from the back of the fascia. You can get die sinking cutters which are specially ground with angular sides for machining injection moulds. I don't know whether Rob's used these or not. I'd actually be very interested in details of Rob's setup, sequence of ops, clamping etc. for nothing more than to satisfy my own interest.

I'd probably have done it the following way:
Op 1
(1) Start with rectangular block of Ali a couple of mm longer & wider than the finished Fascia and about 3 - 4mm thicker (to allow for clamping in a vice).
(2) Machine Back Face flat with Face Mill. Machine pocket for Lens & outside profile of fascia with Slot Drill.
(3) Machine cutouts for Buttons & Knob using die-sinking cutter.

Op 2
(1) Mount part on fixture using 2 of the machined edges as datums. Use something like Mitee-Bites for clamping.
(2) Machine off excess mat'l used for Op 1 clamping using Face Mill.
(3) Rough out Main Windows through.
(4) Rough 3D contour.
(5) Finish 3D contour.
(6) Drill & C/Bore screw holes.
(7) Finish by hand.

There's obviously some detail missing from this layout but that's the general way I'd probably have done it.

Darkstorm - you are just waiting for me to fail aren't you? The truth is the lens recess is not cut in this version. That is one of the reasons it is still a prototype. And the reason it's missing? I completely forgot to do it. I ended up kicking myself when I installed it. But oh well, I already have the CNC code to do it. The bevel on the button holes is there. That was easy to do. The only button I had a difficult time fitting was the lower triangular shaped one. Its got some features that would need to be cut with something smaller than a 1/8" end mill. Otherwise I have to do some final hand sanding with a dremel. I may just make an extra quick pass with a 1/16" end mill just in that button hole.

Rob

Beaker - I love your custom facia. If you want to work something out to get it cut, let me know. And damn, you got my setup almost exact. For clamping I use mitee-bites on a piece of aluminum stock that will be used as scrap. Than I super glue the aluminum used for the facia to the scrap. This way I have no clamps in my way and I can machine all the way around without worrying about hitting anything.

First I machine the backside
- cut inset for lens
- rough cut button holes
- finish buton holes with bevel

Front side
- drill bolt holes
- countersink bolt holes
- 3d contour rough
- planar finish

- Polish with various wheels on a high speed hand drill

Rob

No, not in the least.
I don't have anything against you at all, I was just pointing out something that I noticed. If you look at my other post I mentioned that you knew about it but I didn't think you remembered on this one.

I think (from seeing your work) that you are a very good machinist, and with your machine you can do allot better than I can with mine since my system isn't setup for that. Yet.

I will admit though I was a little resentful at first. Not at you but at the situation.
I was going to try and make some fascia's for these guys, then you came up with your offer and everybody jumped at you and I was forgotten about like yesterdays news, but I've been pretty much over that since you posted the first mock-ups picture and realized your's was setup better than mine.

I must've misunderstood him. I thought he meant the recess.

Is it possible to have lens clip into the facia? This way there wouldn't be any rubbing or clamping onto the lens, allowing a bit more adjustment with the facia and there wouldnt be any great amount of machining the back of the facia.

wow that looks great.
I've been thinking of something along these lines for my MK1 :)

I'm not sure how you would go about it since the lens uses the fascia's mounting screws to hold it in place.

but you could (somehow, i'm no genius here) not have the lens held in by the pressure of the facia on the case. A new design could avoid this by having the lens clip into the facia, avoiding having to drill out the back of the facia and having rubbing marks on the lens itself.
might work, might not. Just a thought.

You could only do this 1 of 2 ways.

The lens would be two pieces for each side of the volume control's arch.
Each piece would have to use tabs that stick out from the lens and be held in place under the edge of the openings in the fascia against something solid in the back (i.e. the glass of the display)
or else the edges of each lens would need a U shaped clip made into the edge which would still require recesses, allbeit smaller ones, in the back of the fascia, which would probably break fairly easily.

I think the best way, short of redesigning Empeg's design, is to mill out the recess in the back for the lens the way it is supposed to be.

As far as reproductions of the stock fascia go, I agree with Steve. The best and easiest thing to do is just produce the necessary recess on the back to fit the stock lens.

Now for new fascia designs, I think we can go a bit further. Also include a recess for the stock lens (because that will give you your colour), but work something out to be able to insert a new clear or smoke lens in front. This would allow you to have a tougher acrylic lens that would hopefully be flush with the new fascia.

How would this be held in place? Clips are one possibility, but as mentioned, can break. The best bet would be strong adhesive. Something industrial, not Crazy Glue or wood glue. :) This would be similar to what you would find with most commercial head units from all the major manufacturers. My new Clarion deck actually has a pretty good looking aluminum fascia with flush acrylic lens.

Steve, I have a question for you. In the pics that you link to in your profile, you show what looks like a custom aluminum fascia for the Mk1. I'm assuming you made this yourself, right? As I've mentioned before, i really like the simple design. It looks like the lens is sitting flush with the aluminum. What kind of setup is that? I didn't see any descriptions on your site and I haven't had the chance to search the BBS to see if you've ever talked in detail about it. I've been playing with a few sketches for custom looks for the Mk2 and the simple designs seem to always look the best.

I'll more than likely be modifying my stock fascia at some point after I finish up all my installs. I don't have the equipment to make my own custom ones, so this is the only thing I can do until someone starts knocking off more in aluminum. :) I'm definitely going to fill in the spaces on the left side of the buttons and probably remove the arch that comes off the button surround. I'll probably also alter the curvature in the middle and to the left to make it more closely match the right side. All this while trying not to make a complete mess. :)

Bruno

What you saw was an experiment that resulted in a couple of faces for two other people.

It is essentially a thin face laying over a smoke Mark I lens.

I've made about 8-10 other designs for the Mark I but haven't photographed yet.

Let me know if you've got any designs drawn out at all
Go ahead and email me at drkstorm@bellsouth.net and we'll talk.

CruzThs,

FANTASMIC! Something about the combination of airfoils and raw aluminum! Gotta love it! Can I order 2? 1 in the raw and 1 anodized black??
--Andrew

I found a couple of handles that were returned due to coating defects and gave them to Patrick for sand blasting. They should be a good match for the Al fascia.

Unfortunately we don't have a stock of handles that we can sell to customers.

Rob

Wait- you're saying that the existing handles can be sandblasted back to a metal finish? Cool! I was wondering how one could make a handle match the aluminum face. I would guess that those who have access to metal milling machines might also have access to sandblasters.

I think a sandblasted handle might even look quite good with the standard plastic fascia.

...my own design.

I like that one very much. There is an understated elegance to that design that speaks of quality, not the gimmickry prevalent in so many modern CD players.

If the visible screws are bothersome to you, one solution might be slotted screws whose head thickness matches the fascia thickness, so that when they were tightened they would be flush with the surface of the fascia. They would be visible, but unobtrusive.

About the only change I could suggest would be to copy empeg's idea of the top button being a very different shape and feel from the rest for easier identification by touch.

tanstaafl.

I don't like the blobby shape of the cut out. It looks like a damaged version of the wing profile. I like the general shape, the knob and the buttons but I'd say if you're going to redesign the display area, don't bother with the loopy looking blobby cut outs that go around the knob. Just make it completely solid, perhaps a rectangle for the display and a punchout for the LED.

In reply to:

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I don't like the blobby shape of the cut out.

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Ahhh... back to the BBS after a couple of days away. I wish you guys wouldn't post so much when I'm not around. It takes ages to catch up again. Thank for all the favourable comments on my Fascia design. Anyway, If you mean the area of the window around the knob for the IR & LED I must admit that this has been bugging me a bit. I intend to take some measurements of where the IR receivers & LED are and see if I can improve the look of the design in that area - just haven't got around to that bit yet. There's still a reasonable amount of detail work to do & playing around with shapes to see what looks best.

In reply to:

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Beaker - I love your custom facia. If you want to work something out to get it cut, let me know. And damn, you got my setup almost exact.

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Rob, thanks for your comments. I'll probably take you up on that offer at some stage. The initial trial samples I'll get made at work just so I know they fit OK. I like your use of adhesive for 'clamping'. I've used this once or twice myself. Oh, and those Mitee-Bites are good too aren't they? We use them a lot at work. Anyway, as I said before, I've designed it to make it easy to machine using standard tooling, Slot Drills, Face Mills & Corner Rounding Cutters (you may know them under different names but they're the names we use in the UK). There aren't any multi-rad corner rounds or fillets or curved faces so it should be a lot easier (& quicker!!) to machine than the original stock item. I'm also just learning the 3D stuff so nothing too complicated yet!! I'll keep you updated with any significant developments in the design. If you have any thoughts on making it easier for you to produce then please let me know and I'll see what I can do to incorporate them into the design.

I would guess that those who have access to metal milling machines might also have access to sandblasters.

Well, I don't have access to any milling machines, but I've thought about buying a small sandblasting booth and a modest compressor. You can do a lot with them. Besides, I love tools. :) I used one while in university for some details on a project for a sculpture class. Now I have ideas to use one for a few projects around here, one of which would include blasting an empeg logo onto the original mock-up for the empeg shell I want to make.

I'll look at prices again soon and if I decide to get something in the immediate future, I'll post. I'd probably even be willing to let my handle be the guinea pig and then post pics.

Bruno

I think the left side and the right side has "blobby" areas that don't seem to conform to a consistent design principle. I guess what I'm saying is the stock design has an art deco "streamline" design that is consistent down to the faux rivets around the bolt holes. I think any third party design should adhere to some consistent principle as well. The wing profile design is pretty well done in my opinion, so a modification to that design would make it resemble only an altered version of the original.

So what I'm saying is you have a lot of good design cues going, but you should take a larger departure for that center cut out and make it as original as the rest of your design.

Calvin

I think I said in another thread ("And then I saw her Fascia" IIRC) that I'm OK with functional design but not much good at arty type stuff, so any suggestions for alternatives would be gratefully received. I guess the blobbiness you refer to is due to the large-ish radiuses I've used to make it friendly to machine. Obviously the smaller the diameter of the cutter the longer it takes to machine the part and as the cycle time and ease of machining was uppermost in my mind, this has probably compromised the design somewhat. As I said before, I need to do some more measuring 'n' stuff to see how far I can take the window design but still make it functional & easy to machine. I'm not finished yet .

If there was a "theme" to your design, I'd say it would be "triangles" -- you can go all out and put triangles everywhere. How's that?

Perhaps put a embossed triangle on the front of the knob, dump the blobs and put in a triangle on either side.

Calvin

I'd love to have a go at designing some cool button shapes... do you think you could post a front on shot that i could play with?

OK, as soon as I get a moment (I'm off to bed now, it's getting late) I'll do that.

Here you go Loren, here's a full frontal .

Beaker -or- CruzThs ,

Have either of you gotten any further on this? My WRX would love an aluminum faced empeg...

- Neil

CruzThs recently stated in another thread that he was talking to a machine shop about possibly making some up. Be aware that the cost could be $150 or more though. He's also been working on making some exotic woods fascias that look really cool.

Sean

I've been tied up with other things lately. I was hoping to get on with it over the Christmas break but it never happened. Rest assured that I will get back to it as soon as I can. I'm expecting my new player to arrive within the next few days so I can properly dismantle one and get the Handle measured up at work on our CMM. Sorry about the Hiatus in development.

breaker that is the most pimpest thing ive seen for awhile, sorry but i just started getting into the threads about a month ago, are you going to be offering these for sale? also differnt colors? maybe that design is gloss black, or something that would match dashes better, silver is cool, but my experience is once they get into the car they stand out way too much. but good work. Justin

Thanks for the compliment. I won't be making any of these for sale myself but if anyone wants the CAD files when they're finished to get some made then they are welcome. When I do get some made for personal use I'll probably have a Silver one and a Black Anodised one, maybe some other colours too .

Wow that looks fantastic. The standard plastic facia/knobs/buttons don't do the unit justice, It feels flimsy. Have you toyed with the idea of powder coating the facia in black?

Thanks . In short - Yes, but to be honest I've really been concentrating on learning the Solid Modelling side of things and getting it dimensionally correct before I start to seriously consider finish options. As I said, I won't be producing these myself but if CruzThs (or anyone else) wants the CAD files to play with or to try to get some made they are welcome. I'll just get a few made at work on the quiet for myself.

Well if you want a certain, ahem, someone to test such a facia in the field I live in London. I think it would look rather good in my car which is 90% made of aluminium anyway. It's like a sign or something! :)

I'd love to try and make some but I'm worried about the buttons. They are probably going to be very difficult to make.

I have an idea about that.

You can buy the (plain, circular) button caps as fitted to the mk1, from farnell.com - eg part nr 917-461 (about $3 for 10). You could then cut off the top part, leaving you with a base that has the mechanically complex section that mates with the switch - you'd then just make a cap for this.

Hugo

Ah, now that's a good idea Hugo. Thanks for that info. I may incorporate that idea into my design .

I would be happy and thankful to get a cad file of the face.

I have access myself, and may just make 1. If it turns out ok, I can check on getting more made, but not making any promises.

Jeff

What CAD format(s) can you use?

I have access to most, inventor, iges...

email me
jscott@cookairtomic.com

Pimp, I Cant wait for the faces to be able to buy, good work

Beaker man, that owns!! How much do you think this would run us?

For fastening it, it'm looking at black hex head machine screwes or if you want to be really slick, countersunk phillips manine screws. personally, It doesn't matter once I get the aluminium plate, buttons and dial. You could always just drill pilot holes then let us decide ourselves...