Tuner Update?

Sorry if this has been asked recently, but I've been completely overwhelmed with the general forum that I can't catch up. Hell, I had over 4000 unread messages in here. I'm not about to read them all

I just want to know if there has been any progress made on the tuner modules. Is there any word on whether more will be made?

I heard there might be a glitch in the plans. I expected to see some info posted with details in the past few days, but still waiting. Hopefully the wait is a good sign...

Cory

dont say glitch, dont say glitch.....

We seem to be at an impasse, in that the list of customer email addresses is
not available from the eStore. I'm not sure if the data even exists (that is,
within SB - the eStore itself is out-sourced). Unfortunately I can't find
anyone who was originally involved with the car player that still works for
the company, so I can't even try to call in favours.

Without the eStore email list we can only contact international customers
plus those that read the BBS. I would guess that to be at most 40% of
owners, going by the polls that were posted here. I don't think the factory
will make fewer than 1000 units and I don't see how anyone would risk the
investment without direct access to customers to pre-guage demand.

We haven't entirely written off the possibility of getting an email list,
but right now it's starting to look likely that the accessible market is for
no more than 200 pieces. It's going to be hard for anyone to justify making
so few pieces using the current (SMT) design. We would be willing to
provide details of the tuner interface to anyone interested in making their
own tuner product, but that would likely involve a great amount of effort
for (possibly) a modest return.

Rob

As I was not an owner during the last poll, I didn't vote.
But put me down for three, assuming a cost of ~$100

I didn't vote either !!!!

Anyway, if you are going to post info about tuner, when can you do so ? It would solve a lot of problems for some of us...

regards

OK, So someone explain to me why sonicblue,s3,empeg or whomever wouldn't release the list of owners on a product they no longer give a ____ about? Are they afraid of privacy rights? are they afraid of empeg resurection (it IS near easter!).

May I humbly suggest a mail campaign by our esteemed BBS members to try to move them from their seemingly STUPID position

I wasn't aware of the last poll (perhaps prior to my purchase of two units). Anyhow, perhaps another poll would be useful. I know many registered users of this forum desire more than one tuner, and who knows how many unregistered users want tuners. Heck, even current tuner owners might want a spare? It might be conceivable to hit 300 - 500 unit demand without an original e-mail list.

Cory

Its becuase they don't have a list. I bet they (SB USA) are too stupid to keep that sort of data.

You missed the point. SB have an opt-in mailing policy, and only 60 car player customers have opted in. I was hoping to get an email list from the sales operation, and that is what has proven difficult. I don't even know if that information is provided to SB (the store is out sourced).

Rob

Oh....So now I'm REALLY bummed...guess I won't go throught the pain of install in my M3.....Oh well it's a pretty cool replacement for my CD changer in the house.

I think the BBS tuner needy would appreciate the posting of any/all info on the tuner (FAQ??). maybe there is a SMC house SOMEWHERE that will consider less than 1000 units as an order, god knows in the heart of silicon valley there must be someone that can help...............it's a sad day 80(

i f you wont install it due to no tuner, i think you are totally missing the point imho.

radio BLOWS compared to having 5000 of your own songs.. the only thing that would e nice is a traffic report or some stern in te morning. Even taht wouldn't make me give up my empeg.. you could also shell the $300 the tuner is going for especially if you just bought your player, i mean, if you just bought it from soming blue and then you buy a tuner for $300 from ebay, you are way ahead of most of us anyway.

Addicted to NPR, I would agree that radio BLOWS for music, Maybe I'll just Aux in a walkman tuner, permanently set to NPR...Got all this cool audio gear (a/d/s, custom subs, focal speakers....) be a shame to waste.

RELEASE THE TUNER SPECS!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr

Put me down for three. Not having a tuner is preventing multiple installs for me.

Why doesn't somebody create an email list on riocar.org where people can leave their email adress together with the amount of tuners they want ?

And maybe Paul H could then add some flashy link here on the boards that would notify every BBS user of this list. This and the word of mouth should be enough to contact almost every Empeg owner I would think, and then at least a correct number of the wanted tuners would be known.

Never say die, start a section on tuners and while your at it put me down for a couple

yah or better yet a preorder section where you pay up front for a tuner, that way SB knows they won't lose money.

a) start the list
b) set a close date
c) find out how much a tuner run to the old manufac would cost
d) bill us and take the money
e) ship us the tuners.

I have pushed the poll back to the top of the list in "General" again, so if you didn't vote before, please vote now.

By the way, I have just tallied up the total again, we are up to 302+ tuners wanted on the poll. I for one have also changed my mind on how many tuners I want. I originally wanted 2, now I want 3 or 4.

Rob,

What do you think the chances are of making the design available for others to manufacture or completely public? I assume there are issues with intellectual property to consider right?

I am in a position where I can possibly provide this type of short run manufacturing service (once I see some costs of the important stuff like the actual tuner module).

yes i to need three tuners and id gladley pay upfront

Shonky, if you are really serious about that offer to build tuners, I highly recommend that you contact Rob directly via private e-mail and discuss it with him.

If there are 1900+ registered users, I would assume a good portion have Empegs (50%!!??) wouldn't we have a good datadase to email people from the BBS about tuners?

How many Mark 2's were sold?

I am serious - at the very least I am talking a group buy of components and circuit boards supplied by me - you might have to assemble yourself. There would probably be an upfront partial payment, completely refundable if the whole thing falls in a heap.

One thing though is that I have never seen a complete module in the flesh. I have only ever seen photos, so I do not know the actual complexity.

I believe there was some mention of a PIC microcontroller inside the module that communicated with the empeg. Is this correct? That shouldn't be a problem though, I am just trying to get an idea.

Hmm, I think that a kit might be an interesting way to go. Even if you had to make the kit larger than the original tuner module (for instance, if you used regular-sized components instead of SMT for some of the work), that might make a lot of people happy. Dunno.

What it really comes down to is the final complexity which as I say, I haven't seen. I did a bit of a search and found a couple of posts by Hugo about having a PCB for correct impedances etc so a different PCB may not be that wise. Releasing the PCB design to the public would be a big help.

This is the actual tuner module:
http://www.microtune.com/products/1384_Series.html

Is SMT really that much of a problem? I work with SMT by hand quite often and don't have a real problem.

Also if there is a PIC inside, the source or binary for programming it would have to come from the empeg/sonicblue guys I would say. A kit would come with these preprogrammed ready for soldering.

Timeframe would be fairly long I would say. I would guess something like at least 4-6 months given lead times on some components these days.

Although I don't think there will be much problem, what it basically comes down to is co-operation by the empeg/sonicblue pppl/

Microtune is in my neighborhood, I'll check on prices for qty 500 and qty 1000.

Sean

Thanks that might be helpful. I would suggest that not everyone hassle these guys at once. Let a one or two of us ask first otherwise they will just get peeved at being hassled by a heap of dreamers.

I have emailed them for a quote of 300 since that is about what the current "survey" stands at.

Cheers Matt,

Looks like you got a weatherband module too (I'm guessing that weatherband is a 1385 and non-weatherband is a 1384). Can you tell me if there are any components underneath the receiver module?

Complexity doesn't look too bad at all depending on what's underneath

Do you under the metal shield or the back side of the pcb ? The shield is soldered on in four spots.

Both really, although I originally meant on the side you photographed.

I can see how the module is soldered in. Can you look in from the side or anything to see? There may not be any room. on the module side. The way it looks from the brochure photo I have, the module PCB is mounted on the shield and the shield is used as the majority of the mechanical connection between the module and the interface board.

I can't see under the module at all

here's the back it's pretty much empty

Thanks again Matt.

That is empty as far as I am concerned. So it's a single sided PCB which is a "good thing" (TM). Looks like a 2 layer board also which is another "good thing" (TM).

I have emailed Rob. We'll see how I go with him and with Microtune I guess.

Please count me in with two

I want one too and would pay in advance

Peter

If the project keeps going, I probably would be interested in getting more than one unit/kit...

Alberto

I have a tuner but a backup or two would be great. Keep us informed of your progress. I think the effort will pay off in the end and you will make a lot of people very happy.

Sean,

Did you end up talking to Microtune at all? I haven't heard anything back from my email yet. I'd be asking for a qty of 300 only. Then we probably have a worst case scenario. If more are bought, then the price will only get cheaper.

Rob,
Are you reading this thread anymore?

I have been out of circulation for a while and missed the poll. I would definitely be interested in 3 units for which I would gladly pay up front.

Sorry, I jumped in with this comment before I found the poll. I have input my request to the poll.

I would want one tuner as well.

Yes, I talked to them. 30.00 each. No qty discount until you get up into the thousands.

Thanks Terminator,

That sounds pretty reasonable. I thought they might be a bit more than that. At least you got an answer from them. They still haven't replied to me.

It was somewhat awkward when they wanted to know what company I was with, but getting the tuners doesnt appear to be much of a problem. The biggest problem I see is getting the overall package manufactured. Who does small quantities?

Sean

Hey Rob, So what about posting Tuner (with an embedded sign-up add) up on Ebay for a longish auction? I'll bet there could be a fair amount of interest stired up from that. It might be an effective way to reach a different shopping set than those who frequent this board. Thought I don't know where Ebay stands on such a form of tactic.

I'll see if I can't track down a contact here at SB for you that could be used to pursue some info. I'm due for a lunch with someone over there...

best regards,
Tim

I sent you an email regarding an external run of tuners but I haven't received any response from you. Did you get it? I'm hoping you have email replies turned on so you will get this.

Is the chance of a SB tuner run still a possibility?

The last thing I heard from hugo was that if we werent running 1000, the factory wasnt interested in producing them.

Sean

OK. That's fair enough. They are a business trying to make money in the end and it's probably not economical for them to do this.

If this is the case, then I will pursue the feasibility of getting the design released so that someone can do a run of their own. All my investigations will be based on 2-300 units.

When did Hugo tell you this?

I can't remember when (It wasnt long ago), but it was posted on this board. Can't remember what thread it was in. BTW, the tuner poll in another thread is up to 350 tuners. I think Rob is pretty busy these days. You may want to contact Hugo by email, he is now a fellow and may have enough pull to get you some information. (although he is busy too I'm sure)

Sean

They way you were talking sounded like it was in the past few days. i.e. since this thread started and you found out the module prices.

I will try Hugo now.

Can anyone beam me Hugo's email offline? Don't post it on the BBS please.

His profile doesn't list an email address.

Why not create a page for order info?

A place where people can sign up giving name / address / phone # / and tuners wanted. I think you will reflect a better # of people who want tuners and have more of a commitment to buy them.

Anybody willing to give this a crack? My HTML / Web skills are... well... crap. Even if it was just a form that emailed the request to someone. Enter it in a table and you're done.

I can host the page no probs if required.

I would do it (I suggested it, thought I was gunna get a beating over not offering to do it ), But I am retarded when it comes to HTML.....

Let's not get too carried away with this though. Apart from what Rob said early in this thread, I haven't had any talks with anyone from empeg / SB regarding how feasible this is or whether they would even release the design,

If we are talking about a run of 500 units at a factory gate cost of USD 80 to USD 100 I am prepared, in principle, to fund the manufacturing run and deal with the shipping to individual buyers.

A number of caveats:

1. I am probably not equipped to deal with the factory (depends where it is). Someone else would have to do that.
2. I would need to have a good number of units pre-ordered and pre-paid before going ahead.
3. I am not going to be able to offer returns/repairs/warranties, unless it's a manufacturing fault that affects all units. If all the units are faulty, then we can get the factory to compensate in some way. If just your unit gets fried by cosmic rays, then you're going to be out of luck.

If this is of interest, let me know, and we can work out some more details.

Regards

Mark

I'd buy one. I think there are some people who would buy one who haven't spoken up actually.

For what it's worth, I would purchase a manufactured tuner if it's in the $100ish range. They were in stock when I bought my RioCar, but as a neophyte I did not realize what a great unit the empeg/riocar was and the tuner would allow me to do away with my factory head unit.

If anyone does up some PHP code that talks to MySQL, I'll bless it with the needed RioCar.org bits and toss it there. The site seems to get enough newbie traffic to probably grab the sttention of some owners that don't frequent here.

Make sure to have big notices that no tuner will magicially appear by filling out the form, and don't collect billing info. All we can do is make an opt-in type e-mail announcement list that might be able to one day say "No tuners" or "Tuners for $x".

I'd do the page, but my free time is lacking for a while as indicated in another thread.

As said by Shonky:

Quote:
'Apart from what Rob said early in this thread, I haven't had any talks with anyone from empeg / SB regarding how feasible this is or whether they would even release the design'

I dont expect them to 'release' the design. Very few companies will release any tech they spent money on development. That doesnt mean it cant be done. We need
to do a few things.

1. Explain our purpose.

The main reason is in no way, shape or form for prohit.
We are a group of indivuals who either missed out on getting a tuner, had our original tuner break or want a
spare for 'just in case'. Just look at how many people have
spare Empegs. Explain we will be more then happy to show our cost and sale recepts.

2. Protect their design

Sure, they no longer make the tuner, but who says they might
not use parts of the design for a future product? We need to show some structure of how we are handeling the manufacturing and distrobution of the product and more importatly who will be handiling the design. Offer to sign NDAs and make sure ONLY the people who are dealing with
the manufacture have access to them. (pardon the spelling)

3. Mark those tuners.

We also have to design them in a way (casing, markings) to show these are NOT Sonic Blue tuners. I'm sure they dont want any headaches of people complaining about repairs to tuners they didnt build. Hell, mark 'em has ' Sonic Blue didnt make this and if you bought this on Ebay, you are an idiot'

4. Offer 'em a taste. (I know I'm going to get flack for this)

Lets face it, it's their design. Nothing talks like money. Offer them a small amout (2-5%), explain that this is FREE MONEY.
Again be prepaired to show manufacturing costs after they are built to them.

If we are going to do this, it's going to have to be a labor of love. The only profit for us is the ability to get tuners. There
is no other way short of reverse engineering the puppy (then we still would not have the right to do a mass run). If there is anything I can do for the effort, just ask. God forbid if we do this and I see one of these on Ebay......

Wow, we seem closer than the previous "be patient" returns. What can "joe empeg owner" do to help? I have no skills at programming or EE stuff but I want to help. I too am cursed with SDINPRJ syndrome (Single DIN: NPR Junkie), as well as the lesser known SDINGF (Single DIN: Giants Fan). I don't need anything other than AM/FM (no weather,shortwave,CB,Email, Cellular GPS or E.T.)

Thanks to Shonky and Drakino and all who have posted-researched-dreamed-commented. Let us know what we can do, there are some great ideas here, let's keep it going

I still have received no response from Hugo or Rob so I will just let this run for a week or so. They are probably busy doing other more important stuff (like release 2.0 ).

Really, the ball is in their court. If nothing comes of this I will still be interested in doing my own tuner (of course this may not work real well with the current player software) . It may not necessarily be based on the Microtune module though.

One other option (dare I say it) is to reverse engineer the current one. But I really don't want to offside anyone so I hate that idea a fair amount.

I think if we present it right and show we will protect their assets, I think we might be able to pull this off. I'm willing to write a letter document our intent and request to talk to them.
If someone can give me any contact information, I'll be more then happy to present it.

Lets wait a week and see what Hugo has to say on the matter before you pursue your course of action. I'm more concerned with finding someone who will manufacture them for us, since whoever SB used won't do a run of less than 1000.

Sean

no problem.......I wouldnt do anything without approval from you guys......

In reply to:

---

If we are talking about a run of 500 units at a factory gate cost of USD 80 to USD 100 I am prepared, in principle, to fund the manufacturing run and deal with the shipping to individual buyers

---

I am quite certain that funding is the one thing that hasn't been a problem for Rob & co. in their pursuit of a second tuner run. I could write a check today for 50,000 pounds if need be to fund a tuner run, though more likely I'd go in with a couple of my empeg owning co-workers, who could do likewise.,. and I politely let Rob know that a while ago. The impression that I got back was that I was by no means the first to make such an offer.

Don't take that statement as one-upmanship- I'm thrilled to see another person making such an offer to help, and expect that if it ever happens, It'll be a consortium of empeg owners backing the deal.

When talking about such an endeavor though, a few things quickly are noted:

#1) The Pricing would need to be set so that the backers could shoot to make a small return on investment, say 10 to 20%. (* off the top of my head – numbers would need to be crunched)

Now before you all get up in arms over such a capitalist statement, consider these points:

* In an operation such as this, there will be additional operating expenses not predicted ahead of time. This is just a fact of life.
* There will be a small percentage of people who don't follow through on their order.
* Units tested before shipment and found to be DOA/Flawed. These will just have to be eaten.
* A small percentage of tuners will need to be held back as replacement units (exchange) for possible problem units.

Given all that, by shooting for a small profit in the initial business plan, the backers may just even break even - assuming their labor and efforts are basically given for free and everything else goes well.

Also, they can still deliver the goods at the original promised price, and not piss anyone off by having to raise the price (even by a small amount) when the tuners are ready to be shipped and the final numbers can be tallied. People get annoyed if they think they smell bait & switch, even if it is unfounded.

Speaking of the price, we need to know how sensitive prospective buyers would be to small fluctuations in the final price. If shipping, merchant charges, materials and other secondary costs brought the total to $125 per tuner, would everyone still buy? Or would enough people drop to change the feasibility of doing it in the first place?

Just because someone can write the check, it doesn't mean they are in the business of throwing money away. And with that kind of money involved, everyone has to be serious and realistic about costs, commitments, and the amount of sweat that it’s going to take. And you really can’t ask anyone to knowingly take a loss for other people and expect a yes answer.

The upside, of course, is doing it because one has the means by tying up some of their capital for a while to really help out a community and a product that they believe in, and that they consider to be unique, worthwhile, and not likely to be seen again.

And everything just goes better than planned, what’s wrong with the people who helped make it happen being rewarded to a small extent for all the effort they put in?

Also, there is the tax side of things. If it’s going to be run like a business, and reported like a business to the IRS (or the UK counterpart), it sure as heck better be able to show that there was intent to make money or any losses claimed for deduction will be denied – with penalties and interest – in an audit.

Just some things to muse over.. Further discussion and thoughts is always welcome.

Maybe you wouldn't, but I'm a loose cannon.

http://209.197.83.18/empeg/

I haven't banged on it too hard, but it all seems to work for me. I'm going to bed now.

(BTW, the IP is permanent. It'll be eden2.com in a day or two.)

Let me know if there's anything that needs to be changed/added.

Alex

Good page, I especially like the ability to return to the page and change selections.

FWIW, the small text is quite hard to read on this monitor.
You don't appear to specify a font name so my browser (IE5.5) defaults to Times Roman, where you have font size=1 it's hard to read (bold is worse).

That said, what I know about HTML you could write on a postage stamp so forgive me if I've missed something

OK guys here's the current status I just got from Rob. I hope he doesn't mind my posting the gist (sp?) here.

1) He has been busy which is why he hadn't got back to me which I had already figured.

2) There are options for tuner manufacturing but they won't be explored until an internal run has been completely discounted.

3) He says there are some difficulties with an in-house run that would also affect an external run.

4) He said he had a new avenue to explore when he gets a moment.

So it ain't over yet! I guess we'll have to hang on for a little longer yet before anything really happens.

The difficulties are simply in identifying enough customers to make a run worthwhile. That's what I'm working on.

Rob

One important note:

If a run is ever done, I will need the name and address of the person responsable. I have a 6-pack of fine beer I want to send them.

Hi.

And if the person(s) responsible prefer wine, I will gladly provide some fine bottles of wine.

cu,
sven

Okay, i've been out of town for a few days (over 100 new msgs to read... sheesh.) Soo... my girlfriends parents run a small smt/board manufacturing plant... and i do mean SMALL, just outside of Boston. I'm going to ask them if they'd be interested in doing a small run of tuners, provided that all of the other avenues Rob's exploring fall through. Might work out for all.

Yeah, I had a feeling someone would complain about that. My browser defaults to a sans-serif font, which I guess is more readable. Anyway, I changed that to size=2, should be better now.

The domain is up, so a little more friendly URL (goes to the same place):

http://www.eden2.com/empeg/

Results are pretty good for being stuck at the bottom of a long thread for less than 12 hours. 36 tuners wanted @ $120, 95% of the people are willing to pay in advance. (10-20% for the backers? Hah!) About 60% of the people are providing phone numbers, most of the others simply have very solid, reliable-looking email addresses.

Maybe it's time to promote this to its own thread and/or page-top link? I didn't ask anyone before throwing it together, but I won't go pimping it to the world without permission.

Alex

You don't need to ask anyone permission to do this, your page is very clear about what submitting data does or does not mean. I say go ahead and start a new thread in General so people can see it.

I was going to do exactly the same thing (after seeing that plenty of people had decided they needed more tuners than they signed up for on my pole, but could not change their vote), you completed your code before me...

Ok, really I was looking for rob or Drakino to tell me that I wasn't stepping on anyone's toes, or if there was some critical piece of information I wasn't collecting, but with 28 people and more than as many tuners, I guess I've already got too much momentum.

Posting obnoxious all-caps thread now... (Hey, the mods can always change it, right?)

Alex

Looks like what I had suggested pretty much, a glorified e-mail list page that dosen't collect billing details, but does collect enough info to be accurate.

Send me an e-mail if you want to move this to RioCar.org. Or at least write up an article pointing to it. It should help to try and grab the attention of as many people as possible without official support from SonicBlue.

I have no problem hosting it, and moving the MySQL is probably more trouble than it's worth now. Do feel free to link to it, though.

Alex