Tuners, empeg, for the use of

Posted by: pca

Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 09:52

OK.

I was going to wait a little longer to say this, but what the hell...

It doesn't look likely that Sonicblue will be making more tuners, since
the batch size needs to be quite large ( >= 1000 units ) to make it worth
their while, especially for a no-longer-produced product.

The same problem exists for any third-part supplier that wishes to produce
the original design. There is a lot of investment, in the 80-100 kilodollar
range needed to do them this way.

I need a number of tuner modules myself, for friends, family, and the like.
Also, I get the impression that there are a few other people that might be
mildly interested if the tuners were available.

So. What to to do? After some thought, I have decided that the best solution
is to redesign the PCB of the existing tuner to be mainly through-hole, then
produce it as a kit.

Note: this is not a firm promise (yet) to do this. I am chasing the supplier
of the tuner modules for pricing and availability, and I'm still waiting for
a final price in small quantities. They're more than happy to deal with me,
but they are themselves waiting for the data from Temic in Germany. I have
also enquired as to the price and availability of the weatherband version as
well.

In addition, I have to finish the PCB (a few days work at most), work out
exactly what the kit contents should be, and decide on what case to use. This
last item is, oddly enough, the most difficult to solve.

Once the costs have been worked out, I then need to finalise a price to the
end user, and solve a few vexing questions, such as how to accept the payment
and the best way to ship the things at minimum cost. However, these are all
fairly achievable goals.

Assuming everything works out from a cost basis, I then need to make a couple
of test units to check that everything works, have one or two assembled by
someone else to check it's easy enough to do and the instructions are valid, and
work out what batch size to produce.

Based on the information I currently have, I think that batches of 25 kits at
once would be the best size to go for initially. I am estimating the final
kit cost will be approximately $150 US, but there may be some modification to
this as the prices of the parts come in.

The idea is to produce a kit containing everything necessary to allow someone
moderately comfortable with a soldering iron to build. I have neither the time
or really the inclination to build them myself for sale, but I'm sure that there
is someone present who does. So even the programmers can get one made

In addition, I intend to add a few small modifications to the basic design, ie.
bring out to some suitable connector the 3 unused A to D channels the PIC has
available, and possibly add a couple of digital IOs. It would also be doable
to add one or two thermocouple inputs, if this is of any interest.

With a little luck, it should be possible to produce the first kits for around
the middle of June.

Comments?

Patrick
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:03

Comments?

You are, obviously, The Bloke.
Posted by: tonyc

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:05

This is definitely a red-letter day in Empeg history... Within two minutes I read posts saying that integer Ogg libraries are available for free as in beer, and now it looks like tuner modules might possibly become available!

I already have a tuner and I'm excited, so I can only imagine how thrilled non-tuner owners are going to be at this news.

Thanks for all your efforts, Patrick, and I hope you can make all the planets align properly to pull this off.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:10

<applause>
Posted by: pgrzelak

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:24

Thank you!!!
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:27

I'm not sure I'd want to buy a kit from this man. He's knocked out some pretty dodgy stuff over the years - jet engines that can't match their mass with thrust, wierd car stereos that don't play CD's, you name it.

Besides, have you seen his photo??

Rob
Posted by: andy

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:31

Besides, have you seen his photo??

I've always suspected that Patrick is Alan Cox's long lost, clean shaven brother...

P.S. I'll take four kits.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:35

I think he could be Jack the freaking Ripper and people would still pay him to make tuner kits. Don't know if you've heard or not, but there's a bit of a demand.
Posted by: tonyc

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:39

wierd car stereos that don't play CD's

I would love to install one of these CD-less car stereos in my horseless carriage!

Oh wait, I guess I already did...
Posted by: Micman2b

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:44

Patrick,
Sounds great. I will be in the market for two of these tuner modules.
Posted by: phi144

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 10:57

You ARE (well, could be) da man!!
Posted by: guardian__J

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 11:01

I'd say at $150 you'd need more like 100 kits with the initial build...
http://www.eden2.com/empeg/?results=1
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 11:07

I'd say at $150 you'd need more like 100 kits with the initial build...

It's not quite that simple. The costs to me of a batch of 25 will be several thousand dollars, and my cash flow is not unlimited. I will, at first, have to produce fairly small batches.

The PCBs, which are the most time-consuming part to get made, will probably be done in 100-off quantities to keep the price down to reasonable levels, after the prototype run.

Patrick
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 11:26

this is great news!

my hat is off to you Patrick for the effort you have put into this.
do keeps us informed of things as they happen
also given the demand it is possibly that you might be able to get pre-paid for a larger first round batch
finally how long do you expext to have these fits available - assuming it all goes ahead? just trying to figure out if I need to cover all my bases now, or if picking on up in the future will be on option.
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 13:51

This is great news! I'll take 3 of them, probably four.

BTW, the additions you mention also sound very sweet! I welcome all the additions that can be made to perfection my favourite toy with open arms! (and I'm sure I'm not the only one)

You've just made my day!

Thanks!
Posted by: Tyris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 13:52

That's great! I'll need at least one... BTW, do you need any financial support to get things moving quicker? Just let me know if you do.
Posted by: AndrewT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 15:34

I (like many others I guess) would happily pay the full kit price in advance if that helps at all, even if the actual kit price ends up being higher than anticipated.

I could also assemble some kits for UK folks who don't feel happy tackling this for themselves.

Rue
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 15:38

-Tyris
"There is no spoon."


Posted by: Tyris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 15:42

See, I told you there wasn't a spoon...
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:01

In my world, you sir, are a Fellow. Count me in as another person willing to pay up front for a tuner....

*runs off to find someone who is good at soldering*
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:01

In my world, you sir, are a Fellow. Count me in as another person willing to pay up front for a tuner....

*runs off to find someone who is good at soldering*
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:03

By the way........you are in the running for some nice beer shipped out to you.....
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:27

Normally I'm not too keen on the soldering (being a programmer and all ), but I can do it if it's through-hole, and it's just an afternoon, right?

Oh, and regarding the run size...If the design is solid, I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble finding someone with enough extra cash to get parts and put together kits -- i.e. you ship them 100+ PCBs, they buy all the components, dole them out to the kits, and sell them. Heck, I might even be able to be suckered into doing it.

BTW, approximately how many individual components per kit are we talking?

And for enclosure, I'm thinking "ball of electrical tape". Stylish and fun!

Alex
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:32

One thing that I would LOVE to see is a way to make remote antennas go up only when the radio is active, not anytime the empeg is on.

This is already built-in to version 2.0 of the software and with the antenna extension cable. The antenna extension cable (assuming it's correctly wired and is not affected by this defect) contains a separate antenna-remote-activation wire that will only turn on when the radio is on.

If you are using the main sled's blue "Amp Remote" wire to raise your antenna, then that's your problem, the antenna is up when your amplifier is on. Re-wire using the tuner extension cable correctly, and you will have the thing you desire.
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:33

Oop, didn't know that. Cool. And it's not that I have it wired incorrectly, it's just that I don't have a tuner. (and remember reading about that limitation)
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:40

Oh, and rob, will there be any problem getting SB to release the tuner design and OK these kits?

Alex
Posted by: AndrewT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:45

Would it help to offer two kit levels, e.g.
Kit 1: PCB, pre-programmed PIC and Temic module but no case, no discretes but possibly 'odd' parts such as the empeg mating connector.
Kit 2: (What you said earlier).
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 16:55

If Henry Ford's long-time example is relevant here, then offering different kinds of kits would just make it MORE difficult to get the product out the door rather than less difficult.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:00

Well, no matter whether it's a plastic case or a bundle of electrical tape, it'll still be black.

(Boy, I hope you're talking about the same Ford quote I'm thinking of.)
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:00

One kit at a time...........some of us are tuner impaired....
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:03

Yes, Bitt, that was the basic idea. But it's more than just color. An assembly line simply works best when there are no variations.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:06

Well, I was joking. So there!

I thought I was overusing the emoticons already. Apparently not.
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:09

Hugo is happy with this, and I have all the necessary data. He wants some as well

Patrick
Posted by: Folsom

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:14

Just curious, how many layers would the board end up having? The reason I am asking is that I have access to a board milling machine.

Regards,
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:15

Woo-hoo!
Posted by: oktane

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:35


Well,

This is certainly fantastic news. My hat's off to you for putting in the effort for this. I have been working on a little project myself, and know how much work it is to get everything to be easy to produce and fit in a case.

AM/FM and WB are nice, but has there been any thought into XM radio?

Posted by: Terminator

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:43

"I am chasing the supplier of the tuner modules for pricing and availability, and I'm still waiting for a final price in small quantities."

You have mail regarding this issue. :-)

Sean
Posted by: shadow45

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:45

Put me down for one! I'll pay in advance, whatever. I just want to see that my empeg gets a tuner, so I have one less thing that people can't bitch about in my car aside from lack of cd player
Posted by: ashmoore

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:50

this is indeed wonderful news, my Austin Cambridge is eagerly awaiting its tuner, I can't listen to the traffic news without the tuner.
No wait, I don't have the Cambridge any longer, oh well it will have to go into my truck.
btw, I could have sworn I saw a new style Vauxhall Astra here in Austin yesterday. Has anyone else seen one here?
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 17:51

"You think you're excited! Feel these nipples!"
- Bob Costas
Posted by: tonyc

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 18:03

The guy who created the Empeg needs Empeg tuners.

That's rich.
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 18:08

And there was much rejoicing.... I'll pay up front too if you want.

Patrick, did you read this thread where Terminator got a price of US$30 per module. click here

edit: looks like he beat me to it.
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 18:09

watch 'em sell over a thousand of these kits......
Posted by: lectric

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 19:32

Hehehe... If the price is reasonable, and they work, they probably will.
Posted by: time

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 15/04/2002 23:18

In reply to:

In addition, I intend to add a few small modifications to the basic design, ie. bring out to some suitable connector the 3 unused A to D channels the PIC has available, and possibly add a couple of digital IOs. It would also be doable to add one or two thermocouple inputs, if this is of any interest.



If this means what I think it does (TiVo/Replay Mode with the Tuner) than I'm in for at least one, and willing to put cash up font!

Sweet! Way to go Patrick!
Posted by: jane

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 01:56

You are my Hero!
And... it just occured to me...
I would want one of these tuner modules to connect to my PC as well :-) But I guess there will be too much work to include line-out? (This would definitively get more of them sold)

But I'll buy a kit no matter.

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)
Posted by: jane

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 02:04

And another tought...
I don't know wether it is a good suggestion, but you could
consider making the unit 1/2DIN size for those 1.5DIN cars... and maybe take out some of the I/O in the front.
But also in a way so that it could be mounted hidden for those 1 DIN cars

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 03:13

Oh, and rob, will there be any problem getting SB to release the tuner design and OK these kits?

No problem at all.

Rob
Posted by: trevorp

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 08:12

Well, Speaking for my friends, I know there's demand for at least 4 here.
Posted by: Japie

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 10:16

Excellent idea!

I am from Holland (in Europe) and am willing to act as a distribution point for users in Holland (to save shipping costs). Please let me know whether anybody would like my help. Please also ship at least one to Holland, I am willing to pay in advance.

Finally getting a tuner so I can avoid those bloody jams!

Jaap.
Posted by: altman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 17:04

No, it won't allow tivo-style work I'm afraid. To do that would require adding a FM demux chip, a set of line outs, and hooking these up to aux in on the empeg. Would add cost and need non-trivial design changes (ie, it'd make it later because it'd need to be prototyped, etc).

Hugo
Posted by: dcosta

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 17:18

Could this proposed new tuner allow for another (third) set of RCA outputs ?
Please, please, please tell me it will.

Also could it supply a set of 4v RCA's for home use without an extra sled.
If so, I'll hold off on the sled purchase and buy 2 of these tuners...
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 17:22

Could this proposed new tuner allow for another (third) set of RCA outputs ?

No, because the connector that attaches the tuner to the sled does not have any outgoing audio on it. It only sends audio to the player, it does not receive any audio from the player.

If you need more outputs, just make your own as described in the FAQ.
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/04/2002 22:05

I know the idea of adding extra afterthoughts is cool, but I would much prefer to just get a tuner. Bringing out the extra I/O is no big deal so why not - but adding hardware for sampling/recording the tuner, extra RCAs blah blah....

Ain't realistically gonna happen IMHO
Posted by: Nosferatu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 04:27

About ecording the tuner, is it not possible with software ?
Posted by: tman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 04:38

Yeah, it's possible but there are limitations. It's mentioned in the FAQ. Main problems would be that your HD will always be spinning and mounted read/write which wouldn't be good and that you can't listen to MP3s whilst recording off the tuner.

- Trevor
Posted by: dcosta

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 08:40

If you need more outputs, just make your own as described in the FAQ.

I am aware of this FAQ, but I am also aware that this is not really what I am looking for.
C'mon, we all know that these are all work arounds to having a front output a rear output and a third non-fading adjustable output. Also, Nothing in said FAQ allows for a 4V output for home use without buying another sled.

[dreaming]
I think the next hardware revision of the empeg should be double din (with a bigger *LCD* screen) and have these three outputs and have am/fm/xm/cd/tape and of course mp3 built in. GPS would be a neat thing to have too. Oh, and maybe a vidoe out of some sort
[/dreaming]
Posted by: andy

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 09:53

am/fm/xm/cd/tape

Don't forget DAB radio for us Europeans...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 13:51

....and don't forget an output for the flux capacitor.
Posted by: tman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 17:14

Where we going to find a DIN sized Mr Fusion though?

- Trevor
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 17:26

I think crutchfield has a mounting adapter for the Mr. Fusion. Mind you you have to buy the Mr. Fusion from them to get it......
Posted by: lofreq

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 17/04/2002 21:52

to mr pca - you make the whole process sound soo easy - i would love to pay in advance like the others for one of the tuner units, or even a kit requiring assembly... so, count me in on a purchase!

thank you for focusing your efforts on this great service to so many of us
Posted by: genixia

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 18/04/2002 06:28

Can't decide between one or two kits. Doh.
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 10:35

Hello all

Well, I am still waiting for the correct pricing info on the microtune modules. I spent a considerable time on the phone to a bloke in Germany yesterday, discussing the available options. The problems seems to be that the module used in the original empeg tuner system is sold mostly (99.999 recurring %) to a very large OEM in the US, and as such is subject to constant design changes and modifications, without notice.

They're happy to sell them to me, but the situation is such that they couldn't guarantee that the modules I received would be identical, either physically or electrically, from order to order. Obviously, not a particularly good solution.

However, they also now do a standard range of modules, with a slightly different set of characteristics, which DON'T change willy-nilly. There are several alternative modules in the range, all of which are pin and software compatible, but differ in price and intended application. We narrowed it down on the phone to 3 different units, and I am waiting for the data sheets and prices so I can pick which one is best.

The three modules are:

The ETSI version for europe, which is optimised for FM performance and low cost, at the expense of AM reception (not used all that much around here) being slightly inferior to:

The North American, which has performance-optimised AM and the US-style FM tuning spacing, but at a somewhat higher price, which is in turn eclipsed by:

The world standard module, which has excellent AM and FM, works in Japan etc as well, and has weatherband on around 165ish MHz. This is the most expensive of the modules, but the most versatile.

The problem with selecting the right module is one of stock control, more than anything. For cost reasons it would seem best to do the ETSI version with european kits and the US version with NA kits. However, this would require different kits to be produced in relatively smaller quantities, two sets of tuners to order, etc.

If the costs aren't too prohibitive, my personal feelings are that the technically best solution would be to use the world module, thus ensuring that not only would the tuner work everywhere, but only one type of module would need to be ordered. The downside to this is that it might raise the final cost of the kit slightly, although you would get weatherband thrown in.

Anyway, until I get the prices and datasheets I can't make a more informed decision, but I thought you might be interested in the progress I'm slowly making towards making all your lives that much more fulfilled

Patrick
Posted by: Terminator

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 10:48

I would be willing to pay more for the weatherband one as long as the player software took advantage of it.

Sean
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 10:57

Question about the three different modules.

Would the empeg car player software have to be modified from its current version in order to even work with these new modules at all? If so, what is the likelihood of that happening?
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 11:58

There should not be any need for the player software to be modified at all, save perhaps in the case of the weatherband receiver. The PIC in the tuner unit has a standard protocol which the player uses to tune it, receive rds data, and so on, so as long as this protocol is adhered to the system works as is.

Anyway, from what I gather sans datasheet, the replacement tuners from microtune have virtually identical interfaces to the original one. It's all set up by I2C in the tuner module, and Hugo is more than capable of making any minor mods needed.

He does, after all, have a bit of experience in these matters.

As far as weatherband goes, I still need to look into this.

Patrick
Posted by: TommyE

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 14:41

Hmm, think I've mentioned it before, but here I go...

If it can do weatherband, do they have any which does Police frequencies??
That would be cool. (At least I think)

TommyE
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 15:04

I think it is common knowledge this 'kit' will be cost more then the original tuners, but anything is better then buying one off of ebay for $400.

As for Police frequencies, would be cool but HIGHLY illegal.
Posted by: TommyE

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 15:32

Naahh, Here in Norway it is allowed to have a police scanner, but you are not
allowed to use it. Who said I was going to use it ??

TommyE
Posted by: robricc

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 15:34

In the US you can use police scanners. Just not in a car.
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 15:38

yup, sorry, didnt mean to confuse.....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 15:50

You can't use one in a car? Serious?
Posted by: robricc

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:01

I got that info from a Radio Shack manual, so you can think of it what you want. I scanned the page out of the manual and attched it to this post. Check it out.
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:02

My brother is a cop.....you dont want to get caught driving around with a police scanner.......
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:07

Wow, I was planning on installing one. That sucks.
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:10

Really I'm thinking the world module would be the best even if a little more expensive. Saves you the hassle of having two different versions. I guess it does all depend on the price difference but it still won't be costing US$300-400 all up like on ebay. And there's the slight increase in performance and weatherband too.

I assume the world module can do 9 and 10kHz increments on AM as well as 0.2 and 0.05 MHz increments on FM. i.e. it is switchable like the original module whereas the ETSI and NA models are hard coded to 0.05MHz/9kHz and 0.2MHz/10kHz respectively.

In Oz we use the 9 and 0.05 MHz versions which I assume is the same as the ETSI version. I know there are only a few Oz and NZ ppl around here though. Weatherband won't do anything for us that I'm aware of.

I'm sure we all appreciate the effort you've made so far. Thanks man.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:12

Why, what's the typical punishment? If it's just a small fine or something I may still install one under the dash or something. My friend had a PA system in his car and a cop told him it was illegal but the cop didn't do anything. We were like 16 at the time so the cop might have been BSing us.
Posted by: eternalsun

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:14

What's stopping you? That's very uncharacteristic of you. I would have expected you to say that if you bought the police scanner, and you bought the car, you can do whatever you want with it since it is yours.

Calvin
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:15

whole different ball game, think about it, your running from the cops, what better to have but to know where they are putting up roadblocks, spike strips, etc,.....most likely, they would at least 'liberate' the scanner from you.......
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:44

I do think I should be able to do what I want with it. What's stopping me? The law.

Think about it. They don't want criminals to have scanners, because then it would make it easier for him to get away. But if the criminal is already running from the cops, he's got nothing to lose. He might as well have the illegal scanner. So I think it's a useless law.
Posted by: AndrewT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 16:48

An open question ......
I can't ignore this term any longer, my curiosity has got the better of me;
What additional broadcasts would a Weatherband receiver capability allow me to actually receive in the UK - weather reports?!
Posted by: genixia

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 17:00

No, the law still has value - it also helps to reduce ambulance-chasing by litigation lawyers and journalists.

Anyway, it's sure to be a moot point within the next 10 years or so - most police radio will probably be encrypted.
Posted by: AlB

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 17:25

Please everyone, back to the tuner kits AM/FM?maybe weather....
Posted by: tman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 17:55

I don't think the weather band feature works in the UK. It's a US only thing from what I remember...

- Trevor
Posted by: altman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 18:03

Not quite, Patrick; all the smarts for the tuner (including interpolation of signal strength compensation values, snap tuning to RDS AF frequencies for monitoring, etc) are all done *in the player code*. The tuner protocol doesn't have "tune to xxx" commands, it has "3 byte tuner I2C send" and "8 byte I2C send" for example. If the alternate modules don't use the same philips tuner chip (6840 or something newer in the same range, I think) then it'd require significant hacking to get it working.

The player software also reads the I2C eeprom in the tuner module for calibration values.

Without major player software mods, you're really going to have to go for the 1385 weatherband module, which at least is backwards compatible with the current software (though weatherband support would require some more work on the player)

Hugo
Posted by: lectric

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 18:50

For the record, using a police scanner in the car is about as illegal as putting your trash out on the wrong day of the week. (Or so a cop friend told me).
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 19:32

From what the fellow with the funny name in Germany told me, the modules they are recommending are compatible with the 1384 unit originally used, but with added features such as direct IF output and the like. As far as I know they are pretty much backward compatible, and I believe are still labelled 1384 and 1385. When the data sheets get to me, I can find out more. I'll chase them in the morning.

Patrick
Posted by: time

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 18/04/2002 22:58

I love this...Nearly fell out of my chair. The other side of the page you scanned is all about 12V powering from your vehicle. TOO funny! Thanks for that Rob.

"...Now, the bullets are put in here and this is the trigger--oh, and by the way, it will do bad things to what you shoot...."
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 19/04/2002 00:33

As another poster said, I don't believe that the transmissions a weatherband receiver receives are available in the UK or on the Continent. It's a NOAA ([US] National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, pronounced like Noah) service called NOAA Weather Radio, or NWR. It's described at the NWR web site and in their FAQ, if you want to investigate if something similar is available in your area. If you don't feel like reading about it, it's basically a nationwide low quality FM radio station broadcasting on several frequencies. It features a continuous reading of NOAA weather reports by an automated voice. There's also supposedly a feature that allows automatic tuning to the station when a settable code is detected, meaning that an important message about the area which the code describes is being announced. (I have no experience with that feature, though.)
Posted by: mail2mm

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of.........WX Info - 19/04/2002 01:42

I thought it might be useful to provide some more information about VHF weather broadcasts. I travel often between the USA and New Zealand and use my two MK2a players in both. I would definitely favor the use of the worldwide chip in the tuner since it would allow me to use the tuner module with my empeg in North America, New Zealand and Australia. Yes, the AM capability and weather reception would be very nice additions.

VHF Marine radio frequencies are used for ship to shore and shore to ship communications around the world. They are also used for continuous weather information broadcasts in the USA, Canada and New Zealand. In the USA VHF transmitters have been installed to provide weather information and severe weather alert warnings to much of the country. Marine VHF frequencies are used in many countries for periodic broadcasts of marine weather information and warnings in coastal areas.

Marine VHF frequencies are usually referred to by a channel designation. Unfortunately these channel designations for a particular frequency are not completely consistent between the USA and the rest of the world. This has resulted in most marine radios having a selector switch between US and International (INT) channels. In the chart below I have shown the channel designation (CH), whether a USA or International (INT) designation (USE), country where continuous weather information is available (Location) and the frequency assigned to the particular channel designation (Frequency (MHz)).

CH______USE__ Location________ Frequency (MHz)

Ch 20___ INT__ NZ_________________161.600
Ch 23___ INT__ NZ_________________161.750
WX1____USA_ USA/Canada_________162.550
WX2____USA_USA/Canada__________162.400
WX3____USA_USA/Canada__________162.475
WX4____USA_USA_________________162.425
WX5____USA_USA_________________162.450
WX6____USA_USA_________________162.500
WX7____USA_ USA________________162.525
WX8____USA_Canada/NZ(VHF ch 21)_161.650
WX9____USA_Canada______________161.775
WX0____USA _???________________163.275

Because of overlapping geographic coverage by VHF transmitter sites many channels are required to provide complete coverage without interference. To be completely useful a weather receiver needs to be capable of being manually switched to a particular channel or it can scan the channels stopping on the first one providing an acceptable signal. Some scanners select the strongest signal available but provision must be made for manual selection or step scanning to tune a particular channel in an area with more than one channel available. Sometimes two channels are available in a particular location but they provide different weather information depending on their intended geographic area coverage.

Michael

PS -- I would like two of the tuner kits. Thanks for your extraordinary efforts.

PSS--How do you make a table on the BBS?
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of.........WX Info - 19/04/2002 10:28

PSS--How do you make a table on the BBS?

HTML is not allowed, so you can't use the <table> tag.

However, if you simply need columns of aligned numbers, you can use the UBB "Code" tag to create a <pre> section and then space everything out with ascii monospacing. This is covered in the BBS FAQ (link near the top of this page).
Posted by: mail2mm

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of.........WX Info - 19/04/2002 12:55

Thanks Tony. I will give that a try next time. I did look at the BBS FAQ. I am not a programmer and the opportunity to surround the text with pre tags did not mean anything to me.
Posted by: shadow45

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 19/04/2002 13:01

If you outlaw scanners, only outlaws will have scanners.

sorry, couldn't resist.

*cough*
Posted by: tms13

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 20/04/2002 08:12

In reply to:

For the record, using a police scanner in the car is about as illegal as putting your trash out on the wrong day of the week.


In which country/region? It depends (a lot) on where you are. I'm pretty sure that intercepting (or interfering with) police communications is a prosecutable offence here in the UK. Whether the CPS will actually go for a prosecution is a separate matter, of course.
Posted by: TommyE

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 20/04/2002 08:53

Nope, don't think so.

Here in Norway it was not allowed to own a few years back.
Now after some EU regulations, (some of them apply to Norway, even we are not
a member) we can own but don't use.

Again, who said anyone is going to use it...

TommyE
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 20/04/2002 12:45

In the US, it may vary from state to state.
Posted by: drakino

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 21/04/2002 08:35

What plans are there for the Sony stalk input and tuner ID select on current modules? Would those two features be in the new one for sure, or probably not?

(Just asking, haven't seen it asked yet by anyone else, I have no real use for the stalk support)
Posted by: g_attrill

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 21/04/2002 09:53

In the UK it's covered by the Wireless and Telegraphy Act 1949 which basically says you are not allowed to listen to transmissions to which you were not the intended recipient. In practice people use scanners for listening to airband, fire, police, ambulance, taxis etc. with little problem *but* if you are silly, following the police etc.) you would be in big trouble. The main method of establishing guilt is if the freq. is programmed into the scanner, otherwise you are ok. Some police forces use encrypted radios now, Bournemouth is definately one of them but it is a pretty expensive thing to do and it will be a few years before they are all converted.

Gareth
Posted by: thenominous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 22/04/2002 08:48

<quote>I'm pretty sure that intercepting (or interfering with) police communications is a prosecutable offence here in the UK</quote>

My friend's old amp picks up the police radio just dandy, with no FM tuner present. I guess its something in the pre amp stage or wot not?!?
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 24/04/2002 06:44

*bump* to keep it up front.

And a question to legitimize my bump.
Any idea yet how large physically the tuner will be?
Will be installing my Empeg soon and would like to prepare for the tuner.
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 24/04/2002 09:32

Probably at least a little bigger than the official one, due to the through-hole components. Of course, there's enough space behind my dash for a large sandwich, so I'm not concerned.

Alex
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 24/04/2002 09:46

Of course, there's enough space behind my dash for a large sandwich, so I'm not concerned.

Hope it wasn't pastrami with mayo. A couple of days in the sun and you'll never get the smell out of your car.
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 24/04/2002 17:48

The stalk input and the ID select will be present, although the ID may be reduced to allow only four codes rather than 16 to free up a couple of digital IO lines for other purposes.

Patrick
Posted by: Clarke

Re: Tuners, and tunable VHF reception - 25/04/2002 07:38

I would just point out that in the US, tunable VHF receive capability would be _very_ handy. If your going to do the WX band (which I'm willing to pay more for) - it would be awesome if you could make the VHF band tunable within the range available by the module.

I operate in both HAM radio and Commercial VHF band near the marine band. I would love the option to tune in a specific VHF FM frequency. I would pay $$$ for this feature.

Plus sign me up for two tuner modules - thanks Patrick!

=-Clarke
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 04:09

Hi.

Well, I have started receiving the information I need on the tuner modules. I've got the datasheets and a preliminary price quote, and am waiting for leadtime info and a couple of samples.

The price is higher than I expected, but lower than I feared. The irritating part is that there is an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 72 units, which is rather a larger investment than I really wanted in one go. So if this goes ahead I'm counting on you guys to not let me down and suddenly decide that no one wants a tuner.

The good news (and a bit of a puzzle) is that the quoted price for the weatherband module is slightly cheaper than the universal module, even though it tunes more frequencies! I'm querying this, and I need to check with Hugo that this will cause no problems. However, assuming everything checks out, it looks like the extended frequencies will be standard.

Now all we need is some way of using them...

pca
Posted by: Nosferatu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 04:39

Many persons proposed to make a pre-payment for the tuner modules.

I think you can have almost the 72 pre-order ....
Count me in.


I wanted to know, about the stalk, you said 4 commands and not 16 the rest for something else, what's this something else ?
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 04:49

I wanted to know, about the stalk, you said 4 commands and not 16 the rest for something else, what's this something else ?

This wasn't about the stalk, but about the tuner ID switch. In the current design it uses 4 bits of digital IO, giving 16 possible IDs. I want some of those digital IO lines for more useful things, so I'm going to change it to a pair of two position links, giving 4 possible IDs.

The stalk system will be unchanged.

pca
Posted by: Nosferatu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 04:56

You answered more clearly to my question than I asked.

Thanks, Patrcik.
Posted by: TommyE

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 05:34

I'll pay you now for two tuners, just let me know.

TommyE
Posted by: jarob10

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 07:44

i will pay now for 1 tuner - to include uk shipping. Please let me know
Posted by: EDub

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 07:47

What was the approx price on the component..Range?

Also, what uses do ya think you could use something like this for in the Empeg...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1347730303

Posted by: dodgecowboy

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 07:52

The only use for that is to play your empeg through a stock stereo that doesnt have aux-ins. Other than that it is pretty useless.
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 10:09

Many persons proposed to make a pre-payment for the tuner modules.
and you can count me among them for one tuner pre-payment of ~$150
I'll be installing my Empeg in the next few weeks and I know I am going to miss NPR and some other stations, but I'll be delighted to get rid of the excessive advertising, chit-chat and gain control over the music I hear.
Posted by: Audio

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 26/04/2002 14:17

If you decide to accept pre-payments, and the price is not raising too much, I would happily contribute with the amount of two (possibly three) kit-units.

My empeg shows a smile already... :-)

Alberto
Posted by: GeoffT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 28/04/2002 12:49

I am happy to prepay for a tuner kit if it is not more than $150

Will need it shipping to UK though - hope this is not a problem.

Geoff
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 28/04/2002 13:03

Will need it shipping to UK though - hope this is not a problem.

That Somerset to UK shipping could be a big problem!

Rob
Posted by: mtempsch

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 28/04/2002 13:26

Yup, those postal clerks would probably send it off to UKraine...

/Michael
Posted by: MMorrow

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 28/04/2002 16:49

I too am willing to prepay for two kits. The weatherband option sounds interesting, but I would be happy with just FM. If you are still looking for extra input ideas -- how about an input for an external dimmer signal? My factory (Toyota) headunit's display would adjust when the dash lights were adjusted. It would be nice to restore that feature. Just a thought ... thanks for taking on this project. I will dust off my soldering iron in anticipation.

P.S. If you decide to create a full blown police scanner model I would be willing to pay even more (say $250), and still prepay two tuner plus shipping.
Posted by: pycckuu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 28/04/2002 23:00

Scanner laws, state by state in the US:

http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/

_owen
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update) - 28/04/2002 23:28

Cool. It's only illegal in 6 states according to that guy.
Posted by: GeoffT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 29/04/2002 00:14

LOL !

Guess I should have checked Patrick's details !

I just presumed that with the price being quoted in dollars he was in the US.

I should have known that anyone smart enough to sort this out would be a Brit ;-)
Posted by: Taym

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 06:20

Ok, a bit late, but please add me to those that would buy at least one kit. Maybe two.
Great great idea, pca. Really hope everything turns out well. Bravo!

Posted by: mernisse

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 07:36

Sign me up for 1 unit, and i'm more than willing to pre-pay if it helps get these units produced.

--matt
Posted by: Warp10

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 08:03

I would buy one kit and pay in advance.
Posted by: holio

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 29/04/2002 09:00

I'll take one. Prepay is not a problem.
Posted by: trevorp

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 09:09

Patrick,
Count me in for one pre-pay. I'm on vacation, so I can't check with the other guys from the office, but I'm almost positive the other 3 would pre-pay as well.
Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 09:20

I hate to kill everyone's enthusiasm, but it seems like there's already a rather compleet list of how many people want tuners, what they'd pay for them, and if they'd prepay.

Old Tuner Thread

That being said, I'd love a tuner too :-)

Matthew
Posted by: Warp10

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 11:19

The lists counts the people willing to buy tuners, but what about tuner KITS ?
Posted by: BleachLPB

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 13:14

I will prepay for a tuner/tuner kit.

And, as an individual with a strong interest in weather, I strongly support the WX band unit.
Posted by: blitz

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 13:18

two kits, prepay is ok with me.
Posted by: fede

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 29/04/2002 14:19

I will happily pre-pay for two to three units/kits. Depending on final price.
Posted by: jane

Re: Tuners, and tunable VHF reception - 29/04/2002 14:30

I would also think it cool to be able to receive 143-145MHz, but not really essential, as I have my Kenwood V7 mounted above the Empeg ;-) (see pictures on riocar.org)

LC1MAT/OZ4PE Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)
Posted by: Clarke

Re: Tuners, and tunable VHF reception - 29/04/2002 18:31

Oh I agree. My Icom 2800 is near my empeg too - but there are times that it would be nice to monitor another channel... :-)

=-C
Posted by: lockuplever

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 29/04/2002 21:55

put me down for 3 units, pre pay is a go with me.
Posted by: gradyville

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 29/04/2002 22:48

Ok, so I am in as a pre-pay. But what is the real deal? Is there an estimated probablity of some kits being offered or is this a tease? Are there other thoughts on how to enjoy a Mk2a w/ no tuner and still have radio in the car? I am all ears. I only have room for one in-dash unit, BTW.
Posted by: thenominous

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 30/04/2002 05:01

I guess that I'll have too tuners please be it in kit form or other wise. Good excuse to get a new credit card
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 30/04/2002 13:13

>Are there other thoughts on how to enjoy a Mk2a w/ no tuner and still have radio in the car?

Easy: Get (or find) a cheap walkman and hook it up to the Empeg's Aux-in. My car even has a convenient hole in the bottom of the dash to snake the cable through.

Alex
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 30/04/2002 14:12

>The lists counts the people willing to buy tuners, but what about tuner KITS ?

I'm not sure it's important -- the main point of that page was to try and get enough people to do a proper manufacturing run. I'm under the impression that there is no need to have a certain quantity of buyers to justify producing kits.

Therefore, if kits actually do become available, I expect things to go something like this after the kits are designed and tested:

1) A real kit order form is put up that collects billing details.

2) I email everyone that signed up at http://www.eden2.com/empeg and point them to the order page.

3) If they want to order a kit as opposed to a built tuner, great, if not, that's fine too.

4) After a period of time (maybe a week, or whenever orders stop coming in), the kit order form is closed, and the exact number of kits bought are made and shipped.

Alex
Posted by: nkildal

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 30/04/2002 14:13

Hi Patrick

Great initiative - you can put me up for 2 prepaid tuners (kits or prebuild - I don't care - I'm desperate for a tuner)....

Regards
Nicolai
Posted by: AndrewT

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 30/04/2002 17:13

The lists counts the people willing to buy tuners, but what about tuner KITS ?

I for one would be perfectly happy to assemble & test kits for (a limited number of) other UK owners who feel uncomfortable assembling their own. My guess is other people in other countries will likely make a similiar offer once this dream becomes a reality.

In short, I feel this aspect of the whole matter is something the community should (and would) support - let's just be happy to have the (potential) opportunity of owning a tuner
Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 30/04/2002 20:16

Just name where to send the money.....count me in for one, with a second one not too far behind (If I have the funds, I'll go for both at once)

Posted by: gradyville

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 30/04/2002 21:36

How about taking a tuner out of the SonicBlue Rio Riot (20G) which has a built in tuner? I don't know if it is possible, and I am no techie... Would there be any similarity? There seem to be a bunch for sale. I'll buy one if someone with the know how wants to give it a try... Anyone? ...cricket sounds... I am sure someone has already thought of this given the population on this board.

see a Rio Riot HERE on ebay

jwb@gradyville.com for direct thoughts or ideas on this...
Posted by: altman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 01/05/2002 03:02

The riot tuner uses the same chip that the mk1 used in its tuner (Philips 5757). This is, as mk1 owners will confirm, not a chip really happy with being used in a mobile environment with lots of multipath interference.

The tuner module (and Patrick's kit) use automotive tuners, designed for use in cars. This makes a HUGE difference.

Hugo
Posted by: speedy67

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 02/05/2002 23:24

I will prepay for two tuner modules/kits. I also signed in Alexanders list....

cheers,
Posted by: Memil

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 03/05/2002 02:18

Little late, but I'm in...
Kit(prepaid depends on price) .

But shipping to sweden must be resolved...

/Fredrik
Posted by: smu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 04/05/2002 14:27

Hi.

You are right. I am perfectly willing to assemble some kits for other europeans that are not good enough with their soldering iron (or don't have one to begin with). That is an offer for assembly of a limited number of tuners of course, but if (minor) compensation is paid, I am even willing to do an unlimited number, as fast as I can.

cu,
sven
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 04/05/2002 17:11

And to jump on the bandwagon (so to speak), although there aren't many I will offer the same as Sven for Oz and NZ buyers.
Posted by: Berserko

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 05/05/2002 15:43

I'm in for one....
Posted by: mail2mm

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 07/05/2002 01:41

Shonky,

Are you in Australia (where?) or NZ? I am normally in Auckland or the Bay of Islands but now in the States until October. I am anxious to take my Rio Car units home to NZ and install them at home and on the boat.

Cheers,

Michael
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 07/05/2002 03:52

Yeah, Australia. Brisbane to be precise
Posted by: Shonky

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 08/05/2002 18:44

Anymore updates on the kits, Patrick? You seem to have gone quite lately...
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 02:22

Patrick has been away - I know he's still working on the project (awaiting delivery of sample parts).

Rob
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 03:01

Okay here is a question.

Given that some of us out here have some flakey soldering is there any chance of a test rig some where with some one to test units before plugging them into our beloved empegs.

Also what would the support issues be with us plugging home made tunners into our empegs

P.S. i'll have two
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 03:13

I don't know, I'm not involved in the project. I daresay the instructions will include some post build tests.

If you plug any third party product into your empeg which damages the player, your warranty will not cover the repair!

Rob
Posted by: matthew_k

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 12:26

So what's the worst that can happen if we put 12V down any of the pins in the tuner harness? No more tuner possibilities? No more empeg? Fuse replacement?

Matthew
Posted by: lamer

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 12:47

What kind of "homemade" tuner were you planning on hooking up to the empeg?

Cory
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 12:54

You have actually read this thread that you're posting to, right?
Posted by: lamer

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 13:16

I assume the bulk of the tuner harness is occupied by a serial interface and line level audio. A serial (rs232) receiveer will typically handle about +/- 20 to 25 V without permanent damage. A serial driver will typically drive about +/- 13V (take care not to damage your "homemade" tuner). Line level audio inputs really should be driven no higher than 2-3V max. Line level audio inputs can be sensitive; driving them to 12V could (and for extended periods of time probably will) cause permenent damage. Driving any 12V ac signal to line level inputs will also sound terribly distorted... Rework with fine pitch surface mount IC's (A/D converters for instance) requires some skill and specialized soldering tools...

Cory
Posted by: lamer

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 13:30

Yes, I have. I thought he was implying an interim truly home-made tuner. The more I think about it was a strange assumption to make. Take this into consideration when reading this

Cory
Posted by: elvis

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 13:50

lol! Is there a RTFM thread equivalent? RTFT?
Posted by: altman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update 2) - 09/05/2002 16:08

No, the serial on the tuner is TTL level not full rs232. Put more than 5v down a pin and you're likely to blow the buffer on the main board - and hopefully not blow anything else.

The audio inputs are probably ok to about 3.3v which is the analogue supply to the ADCs in question.

Hugo
Posted by: philip2002

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 10/05/2002 13:20

Put me down for a tuner, guys! Am prepared to pay in advance. Cheers.
Posted by: Guschti

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 12/05/2002 11:08

It's getting quiet here... is there any update?
Do you know when we can expect the tuner kits?
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 02:10

He's still waiting for samples of the tuner module (which goes inside the tuner module).

Rob
Posted by: BartDG

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 04:10

Phew! Deep! Great philosophers have thought for centuries about stuff like that!
Posted by: philip2002

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 12:01

Is there a recognised sign-up sheet somewhere for getting these tuners? It would be a shame to come this far and not get one.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 12:05

Is there a recognised sign-up sheet somewhere for getting these tuners?

"No, Neo. We're saying that, when they're ready, you won't need to sign up."
Posted by: philip2002

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 12:11

I'm getting the Matrix here. Or maybe i'm just very wrong!
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/05/2002 12:19

Yeah, I like to do the occasional Matrix reference.
Posted by: puckalicious

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 14/05/2002 10:20

There is no tuner.
Posted by: tman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 14/05/2002 10:39

Do not try and make a tuner. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth, Patrick is making them

See... Matrix quotes fit every occasion!

Anyway, back to work...

- Trevor
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 14/05/2002 11:14

Posted by: Satan_X

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/05/2002 18:06

As the french say......Le Bump...
Posted by: nikko

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 18/05/2002 13:47

Hmmm....well, I'd certainly be interested. I'm sorry, there are so many posts I might have missed it - do I need to sign up somewhere to reserve a tuner or spot in one of the first batches? Thanks.
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 18/05/2002 19:32

If the "kit" tuners become reality, you won't need to have signed up anywhere.

If you hope for pre-manufactured tuners, you can sign up at http://www.eden2.com/empeg/ if you want, but the outlook is looking more and more grim as time goes on.

If the kits come out, it sounds like there will be people who will assemble them for you.

Regardless, if you sign up at the above page, I'll fire off an email when (if) tuner kits become available, so you won't accidentally fall out of the loop. Can't hurt.

Alex
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 19/05/2002 05:36

If you hope for pre-manufactured tuners, you can sign up at http://www.eden2.com/empeg/ if you want, but the outlook is looking more and more grim as time goes on.

It isn't getting more grim - we stopped researching a new manufacturing run when Patrick announced his project. With a bit of luck Patrick will be at the European owners meet next month, maybe with a prototype!

Rob
Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 20/05/2002 02:01

But the outlook for pre-manufactured tuners (and hence my little web site, sniff) is more grim as a direct result of Patrick's project, right? Because that's what I was trying to say.

Or is it easier to produce small (~300) batches of populated through-hole boards than SMT? (i.e. have someone sit there with a soldering iron)

Alex
Posted by: lopan

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 20/05/2002 06:37

Um... I think what they mean is that "grim" isn't the word for the pre-manufactured tuners, because it's not going to happen at all.. Nada... Zilch... Zero... Our only chance for a tuner is to buy Patricks kit or Ebay....
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 20/05/2002 10:10

That is excellent news but

Will he bring his jet engine as well now that would be real good fun.
Posted by: andy

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 20/05/2002 10:20

Did he forget to mention that the new tuner module design was jet powered ?

Posted by: Alexander

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 20/05/2002 13:20

>because it's not going to happen at all..

Well, never say never. Someone might do a little run with Patrick's design, or some crazy millionaire could do a run of 1,000 for his 1,000 vehicles.

So the likelihood may be infinitesimal, but I wouldn't say it's zero just yet.

Alex
Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 21/05/2002 16:29

It seems quite likely that someone will come to an agreement with Patrick to sell fully assembled versions of his kit. I believe he has already been approached by a few people interested in doing this.

Rob
Posted by: lopan

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 21/05/2002 20:31

In reply to:

So the likelihood may be infinitesimal, but I wouldn't say it's zero just yet.




Sorry... I sometimes tend to be too negative... if I ever win the Lotto and become a crazy millionaire... we'll all have tuners!
Posted by: altman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 22/05/2002 05:23

ISTR the kit aspect was to get around needing all the various regulatory approvals. If Patrick sells pre-assembled ones, then in theory he'd need to get them CE/FCC approved.

Hugo
Posted by: Guschti

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 27/05/2002 05:54

Patrick,
I sent you a mail a couple weeks ago - I got no answer so far... Seems you are quite busy. I was only asking if it could be possible for you to publish the schema of the tuner on a website. If not - I'll have to wait for the kit then... hope it wont take that long from now on ;-)
Posted by: tman

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 27/05/2002 08:09

I don't think the schematic would be that useful. The actual tuner module is hard enough to get as it is and you need to recreate the PIC firmware for it to work anyway.

You got some neat idea for it?

- Trevor
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 30/05/2002 19:16

Hi again.

I'm finally back, having found and killed the problem that stopped me posting for the last few weeks. It was indeed a cache bug, due to Telewest having nearly as much ability in setting up their 'transparent' web proxy as a blind 15th century norwegian peasant with no hands, one eye, and a wooden appendix.

Anyway.

I have spent a couple of days doing the PCB for the tuner module, after a long and bloody struggle to decide on a suitable enclosure for the thing. I finally decided on this one, which is almost exactly the same width and length as the current tuner module, but about 60% deeper. The one pictured isn't the one I'll use, as it's a more expensive one made of polycarbonate. Since there is not likely to be a requirement to have a bulletproof tuner, I'll use an ABS one, which is about half the price.

This is a screen grab from the pcb package printer dialogue of the silkscreen and pads of the board set, which gives some idea of the complexity. As can be seen, it's quite simple, although due to the component size versus the board area the packing density is a little high. If you're interested, this is a screen grab from the artwork editor, showing the board layout in glorious technicolour.

There are two boards, which connect together in a vertical stack about 3/4 of an inch apart. The bottom board has the tuner itself on, with support circuitry, while the top board is the processor one, which contains everything else. Each board is about 2.25 x 2.8 inches in size, although the bottom board bulges a little to accomodate the tuner module.

It shouldn't take a competent solderist more than about 20-30 minutes to build the boards, assuming all the component leads are bent correctly beforehand. The bottom board is fixed into the box by four 20mm M3 mounting pillars screwed through the cornet holed, then the top board plugs in and is secured by 4 M3 screws into the tops of the pillars.

To save cost, the boxes won't be punched like the original ones, with neat cutouts for the connectors and so on. The antenna input and empeg lead will exit through grommets, which makes the drilling easier, and gives a free extension cable at the same time.

I have just sent the job files off the the PCB manufacturer, to have five boards made on a one-week turnaround. If all goes well, and I haven't flamingoed up, I should have a build and possibly even working unit in time to take to Holland next month. This depends, of course, on actually getting the sample tuner module, which is still apparently a week away, as it has been for a month.

Now, for some news that might interest various people: I have added value to the tuner!

There were some IO lines left on the PIC, and I hate wasting things... So the tuner can have (possibly optionally, have to think about it), a pair of 1.5A 12V mosfet-driven outputs and 4 12v compatible inputs. Also, it is possible to stack another board on top of the existing set, which can have another PIC on along with various I/O facilities. There is just room in the box, as far as I can work out, to allow the top board, which I haven't designed yet. Future project.

Now. On to another matter. Why the FECK do banks insist on using crap security websites that only work with either IE (the most insecure web browser in existence, a pox be upon all who wrote it), or old versions of Netscape, which are just unreliable in the extreme. Trying to manage my bank accounts with a browser that, when it crashes, screws the current session so thoroughly that the web server then locks my account so I have to phone the bank helpline (HA!) and have them unlock it is just a pain.

Oh well. Life's like that, then you wake up one morning dead. Bummer.

pca

Posted by: ninti

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 30/05/2002 19:33

> a blind 15th century norwegian peasant with no hands, one eye, and a wooden appendix.

If he's blind, does it really matter that much how many eyes he has?
Posted by: tfabris

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 30/05/2002 19:36

nearly as much ability in setting up their 'transparent' web proxy as a blind 15th century norwegian peasant with no hands, one eye, and a wooden appendix.

Ah, Patrick, never failing to give us a really good quote.

You sir, are THE MAN. This is all great news.

this is a screen grab from the artwork editor, showing the board layout in glorious technicolour.

What, no secret messages sandwiched between the layers?
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 30/05/2002 20:00

What, no secret messages sandwiched between the layers?

You were expecting maybe "!seineew era sreenigne esioNtahP"?


Posted by: Shonky

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 00:26

That's great news to hear Patrick. I think some were thinking you'd disappeared. Hope the tuner module sample comes through - did you decide on the full option one?

BTW: You had better have some place safe to hide once you release this design. The onslaught of people wanting tuners is going to be huge.... (I'm thinking an old castle with a drawbridge and moat )

Keep up the good work.
Posted by: tms13

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 01:38

In reply to:

... a suitable enclosure for the thing. I finally decided on this one...


Do you have dimensions for the box? I'm cramped for space inside my home enclosure, but there's a space of about 8x6x8cm if I can move leads out of the way. Otherwise I'll have to mount it externally or swap with the one in the car.

In reply to:

There are two boards, which connect together in a vertical stack about 3/4 of an inch apart.


If space is an issue, can they be mounted side-by-side (in a different enclosure, obviously)? Or are there connectors which depend on the alignment?

In reply to:

I have added value to the tuner!


Is it possible to distinguish the new tuners from the original, in software? I'd like to be sure that any software that uses your new features won't break a standard tuner (and vice-versa). You said earlier that you were reducing the tuner ID to two bits; does this mean that the other two bits on a standard tuner will appear as inputs?

In reply to:

... as much ability ... as a blind 15th century norwegian peasant with no hands, one eye, and a wooden appendix.


A gem!

Again, thanks for making the effort. I'll be getting one, even if it does mean having to invest in a sensible (small) soldering iron.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 02:37

2 questions:

1) If you're dead, how can you wake up?

2) Is this thing going to be hard to assemble? Do we have to soder all of those little bitty components?
Posted by: BartDG

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 02:39

1) If you're dead, how can you wake up?

*sigh*

2) Is this thing going to be hard to assemble?

Dependes if you have any soldering expertise or not. If you're capable of doing the button hack yourself, then I don't think this will be a problem for you.

But I won't get my fingers burned on this one : I'll just ask a mate of whick I'm sure he's capable to do it right.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 02:45

Yeah, I don't have any soldering talent whatsoever. Maybe someone on here will be assembling them for people for a fee.
Posted by: pgrzelak

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 04:16

Greetings!

As always, WOW! Thanks!!! A nice piece of work!

Every time I open an empeg up to mess with the hard drives or something, I just have to stop for a moment and just stare at the main board! Art!!!
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 05:30

If you're capable of doing the button hack yourself, then I don't think this will be a problem for you.

Having seen the resistor pack used in the button hack at the recent Boston Meet I don't think I'll be doing any soldering.
Is there any one in the Boston area, or US for that matter, who might assemble them for Dougals like myself?
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 08:03

Err, AFAIK, Patrick has come up with a through-hole design to make the soldering easier - none of that impossible to see surface-mount stuff, so it *should* be vastly easier for anyone with basic soldering competancy to handle. That being said, I (like everyone else here besides Patrick) haven't seen a kit yet, so it's not for me to give a definate answer. But I wouldn't expect to see any of those resistor packs! It's probably not a good idea to compare the button hack soldering to this kit - except to say that anyone capable of the button hack should be vastly overqualifed to assemble this kit.

I would say that this kit is probably not for those who have never picked up a soldering iron before - Patrick has hinted at the component density and the component count, and that combined with the costs of buying suitable tools and the effort needed to practice soldering skills might make it undesirable, but certainly not impossible.

Anyway, I'm in Boston, and time permitting will be able to help out those who need it.
Posted by: pdw

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 09:48

Looking good.

The one thing that concerns me is how I'm going to get one of those behind my dash. Getting the Empeg in in the first place called for the gentle application of brute force over ignorance when it came to making space for all the connectors on the back. Is it possible to extend the connector on the tuner so that I can mount it elsewhere?

Paul
Posted by: mtempsch

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 09:50

As it were, the original tuners came with a extension cable about a foot long.

/Michael
Posted by: wfaulk

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 10:04

Ooh! Grammar nazi time!
    As it were, the original tuners came ...
Improper use of the subjunctive case. (Or, possibly just incorrect number, but getting to talk about subjunctives is so much more fun.)
Posted by: AlB

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 11:40

Happy Happy day, happy day, happy day......
Looks awsome! Thanks you for time and effort well spent! Optional Longish leads for all connections would be greatly appreciated by those of us cursed with Single DIN very cramped german cars (no names just intitials, B..M..W)

Strong work!!!
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 14:25

Tuners.....close......getting.....excited.....must......find.......person.....with......soldering.......skills........
Posted by: MisterBeefhead

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 15:20

In reply to:

those of us cursed with Single DIN very cramped german cars




Sheeiiit...I wish I was "cursed" with a BMW...
Posted by: johnmcd3

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 15:38

You be suprrised what can fit back there on the E36 models. I got the tuner in without much fuss, but with the extra height you might have to go behind the glove box (plenty of room back there).

John
Posted by: mtempsch

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 20:01

Ooh! Grammar nazi time!

Oh pooh... In my defense I'll claim that I was dog tired at the time and that english isn't my first language... Now, I'm still dog tired and up at 5 am...

/Michael
Posted by: aikidoka

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 31/05/2002 20:44

This is great - Im looking forward to the kit. I just have to work on those soldering skills. I havent done that since I was kid.
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 01/06/2002 02:10

I have a e36 3 series and it has loads of room just drop out your glovebox and nice easy access and i might be possible to mount another din slot in below the clock/trip computer thingy.
Posted by: muzza

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 01/06/2002 03:32

I'd be keen to solder kits for people. Except I'm in Australia and buyers will have to pay a little more for shipping and wait a tad longer.
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 04:11

Hi.

Well, I got a surprise this morning. Yes, the samples arrived, a week before the week after the month later than the two weeks they quoted me originally. It even seems to be the same size as the mechanical drawings claim (always a pleasant shock), and actually fits the box. Barely.

That's the good news.

Yesterday evening I had an email from the distributor, about the availability of the module I now have a sample of. They had finally extracted delivery times from Microtune in Germany, which turn out to be 4 months!

That's the bad news.

However, they say that the weather band version is available from stock, and have offered me quite a good price on it. I'll have to double check the software compatibility, but It may well be a viable alternative.

And that's the ugly news.

I will now throw the session open to questions from the floor.

What, no secret messages sandwiched between the layers?

It's only a double sided board, hence between layers is a little difficult to achieve. However, by careful use of fractal track patterns, I have managed to impose a message on the 11-dimensional N-space contained within the volume of the PCB. Reading it is your problem...

If he's blind, does it really matter that much how many eyes he has?

Of course! Otherwise he wouldn't have anywhere to keep his marble.

Do you have dimensions for the box? I'm cramped for space inside my home enclosure, but there's a space of about 8x6x8cm if I can move leads out of the way. Otherwise I'll have to mount it externally or swap with the one in the car.

The box is externally 82mm x 80mm x 55mm.

If space is an issue, can they be mounted side-by-side (in a different enclosure, obviously)? Or are there connectors which depend on the alignment?

The PCBs will connect together via a pin header. This could be replaced with a flat cable if necessary.

Is it possible to distinguish the new tuners from the original, in software? I'd like to be sure that any software that uses your new features won't break a standard tuner (and vice-versa). You said earlier that you were reducing the tuner ID to two bits; does this mean that the other two bits on a standard tuner will appear as inputs?

From the point of view of the player, the tuners will be completely interchangeable. The two vs four bits of ID merely means that my tuner can only have one of 4 different ID's, rather than 16.

Is it possible to extend the connector on the tuner so that I can mount it elsewhere?

As the player and antenna inputs will be on flying leads anyway, you can always just make them the length you require (within reason, 10m is probably a bit much) at the time of construction.

Improper use of the subjunctive case.

As always, a bad idea. Always use the subjunctive case for storing subjunctives ONLY, or your warranty will be void.

Patrick
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 08:15

Thats great news! But... I can't solder! Is anyone in the UK willing to make the kits for us folk with useless hands? (for a fee of course) I'm in the UK by the way.
Posted by: Shonky

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 01/06/2002 10:09

That'd be right Murray, two people able to give something back to the empeg community just down the road from each other but miles from anybody else. Oh well .... my offer still stands.

And Patrick : If you think that's ugly news, then I think we're in pretty good shape.
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 10:18

Hi.

If you (or anybody else) don't mind the extra shipping cost to/from Germany (which shouldn't be too high anyway), I am perfectly willing to handle the soldering for you.
For reference: If the tuner module does not exceed the weight of 2kilogram (which it would hardly do), shipment from Germany to any place in the EU is about 8 EUR (worldwide: 10EUR) without insurance and 15EUR (world: 33EUR max.) with insurance. EU in this case includes the non-EU countries of Switzerland, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic.

cu,
sven

Edit: Corrected the max weight for a tuner ;-)
Posted by: mtempsch

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 10:23

Sven, I think you got a kilo to much in there. Or the german post office is far more generous on the weight limits than the swedish...

/Michael
Posted by: andym

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 10:28

I'm fairly handy with an iron so I suppose I could offer my services, suppose I should probably build myself one first though. BTW I'm based in Manchester...
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 10:53

You are right. I corrected it now.
Posted by: AndrewT

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 01/06/2002 17:32

I would also be happy to assemble a limited number of kits for other UK owners.
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 02/06/2002 03:55

Thanks. At least I know its possible to get them assembled! Now we all just need to wait!
Posted by: Derek

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update update) - 02/06/2002 07:37

... They had finally extracted delivery times from Microtune in Germany, which turn out to be 4 months! However, they say that the weather band version is available from stock, and have offered me quite a good price on it. Which is probably why my original tuner module also has a weather band version of the tuner module in it. If I remember rightly Hugo said they got the weather band modules for the same price as the normal ones because there weren't enough normal ones available (mind you, I've got a bad memory ). I'll have to double check the software compatibility, but It may well be a viable alternative. Like I said, my original empeg/Rio/SonicBLUE whatever tuner module has a weather band version of the tuner module in it and it works fine, so I don't think software compatibility is going to be a problem. Good to hear that you finally managed to get your samples and that things are moving forward
Posted by: Rod

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 16:28

Make that three people in Australia willing to build kits. Not just down the road from you but still miles from anybody else!
Posted by: Shonky

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 16:52

Just proves that us Aussies are better at more than just cricket and rugby, eh?
Posted by: rob

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 17:34

So why did you wait for a Brit to design this kit then?

Rob
Posted by: Shonky

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 17:48

If you'll remember I did start looking into the possibility of a limited production run a while back. It also helps when you have access to a complete working design.

Gees and you guys still can't beat Sweden at football. Last time was 1968 if I remember correctly (and I wasn't even born then)
Posted by: rob

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 17:52

Ah. but Patrick didn't design the original tuner! His kit design is original.

As for the football, I take it that's a world cup reference, but since I don't plan to watch a single match of it I would have to say that I'm less than devastated. Those guys should get useful jobs

Rob
Posted by: Shonky

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 18:02

I am guessing he had access to the schematics though right? Or did he reverse engineer an original and did he just guess how the PIC was wired.

If he designed it from scratch and is writing the PIC code etc himself then good work. Otherwise (and I'm pretty sure it is), I think he had a fairly decent head start. Laying out boards is easy (well at least less time consuming) compared to designing a new product from scratch.

And it was a World Cup reference - although England haven't beaten Sweden for 34 odd years WC or otherwise. Rob, are you the only person in England who doesn't care about the football?
Posted by: Derek

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 18:14

Rob, are you the only person in England who doesn't care about the football? Maybe, but not the only one in Europe!
Posted by: rob

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 02/06/2002 18:22

I don't think I know anyone who's into football.. ok, thinking harder I can come up with two people who are. I know quite a lot of people though!

Rob
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 01:28

Yep i think football is really overhyped, i loveed ITV digital going belly up due to football.

I am starting to wish i was on a ship so i can miss all the bloody football.
Posted by: F0X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 01:38

Be careful what you wish for.

10 more days till shoreside
Posted by: andym

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 05:10

Nope, I put my hand up and say I couldn't care less about the world cup. Even though I have been working my ass off the last couple of weeks to make sure people who watch the world cup on the BBC have access to all those useless interactive features!
Posted by: dcosta

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 06:24

Yep i think football is really overhyped

<american_comment>I don't know about football, but soccer is WAY overhyped...</american_comment>
Posted by: muzza

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 16:16

Maybe Patrick could get a bulk deal by flying us over to England to solder them up for him?
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 17:49

<REAL American Comment> They play soccer past High School level?....</REAL American Comment>
Posted by: lectric

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 17:54

I must be one of the only guys in the US that watches Soccer on Univision, and I don't speak a lick of spanish. 'Course playing fo 16 years may have influenced my opinion a bit. GoooooOOOOOoooool!
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 19:42

Univision and Fox Sports World are my two favorite channels...soccer plays on my TV all the time.
Posted by: tonyc

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 03/06/2002 20:18

I must be one of the only guys in the US that watches Soccer on Univision, and I don't speak a lick of spanish. 'Course playing fo 16 years may have influenced my opinion a bit. GoooooOOOOOoooool!

I think the hot females that grace the airwaves of Univision are enough to make me not mind the few times they decide show a friggin' soccer game.

More on topic, (well, more related to this off-topic tangent) soccer is definitely a sport that you don't tend to appreciate unless you've played it. I think it's a great sport to play, and I played for several years, but I myself have a tough time appreciating it from a spectator's point of view. I actually *can* watch an indoor soccer game, because there's more action and more scoring.

Here in the U.S. we have a professional indoor soccer league, and the games are much more fast-paced than the world's version of soccer. I think the smaller field, less-confusing rules, and the fact that there are NO TIES make the game much more palatable to American fans. There is NOTHING worse than watching two teams play to a 0-0 or 1-1 tie, regardless of how much suspense, action, whatever there was. A tie is simply an unsatisfying result to a game. I cannot believe soccer hasn't adopted an overtime / shootout system to settle ties. I understand that it sucks to lose a game on shootouts, but it's real nice to win one! How can you celebrate a friggin' tie?!?

Anyway. I know soccer is the world's game and being an American I'll never understand these things. And having seen a few NFL Europe games on TV, it's clear that the rest of the world won't understand American football either. Good thing it's our differences that make us stronger!
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 01:16

There is NOTHING worse than watching two teams play to a 0-0 or 1-1 tie, regardless of how much suspense, action, whatever there was. A tie is simply an unsatisfying result to a game. I cannot believe soccer hasn't adopted an overtime / shootout system to settle ties. I understand that it sucks to lose a game on shootouts, but it's real nice to win one!

Speak fer yourself. I don't mind a tie at all. Watching soccer is like watching an exciting chess match for me. Hmm... maybe that's a bad example... A tie is a bit of an unsatisfying result, but I'd rather a tied game between two equal teams than see a game won or lost on a shootout. It doesn't just suck to lose on a shootout, it sucks to win on one, too. I played as a keeper for about 5 years. A shootout in soccer isn't like a shootout in hockey, where the goalie covers 90% of the net. As a keeper, you pick which direction you're going to dive before the kicker even swings a leg at the ball -- it's the only chance you have of stopping a shot. Provided you picked the right direction in the first place. You might as well count potatoes to decide the winner, and everyone playing knows it, so winning by shootout has no more satisfaction to a game than a tie. And for what it's worth, they do have a shootout in the final rounds -- the prelims are for points for seeding purposes, just like first round games in hockey tourneys that allow tie games (such as the Olympics).

An overtime period would be nice, but that would make for some *really* long games. Maybe if overtime games were played with half the men on the field, and unlimited subs to keep players fresh enough to keep playing well...

(To bring the subject fully back on topic, I'm glad I work for a company that has engineers -- I couldn't solder my way out of a dry paper bag )

Cheers,
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 03:27

I love soccer!! Right now I'm watching Japan v Belgium, and is the best game I've seen so far! In my opinion its better than American Football - it goes on for hours, and theres 2 minutes of play!! Overhyped nonsense. I do like to watch a bit of baseball though, but American football you can keep.
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 03:31

Yeah trying to drag it back on track Maplins in the Uk has soldering kits and projects to build could anyone have a looky and reccomend one to play with before we build our tuner kits.
Posted by: andym

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 03:44

Last time I bought a solder iron from Maplin I got an Antex with a stand, a couple of extra bits and a reel of solder. I think I paid about £20. I've now got a temp controlled Weller (but my employer paid for that even though I've not had to use an iron at work for over a year!).
The Antex was a good reliable iron with a good quality fine tip on it. As for projects, I bought a sinewave generator kit from Maplin about six months ago, piece of piss to build and, looking at pca's design probably well suited for practice.
Posted by: tonyc

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 06:28

Funny, I thought I *was* speaking for myself...

Yeah I know penalty kicks are heavily biased towards the shooter. In two of my years of playing soccer I played keeper. We never settled ties with shootouts at age 12, of course, but I did have to try to defend penalty kicks due to fouls in the penalty area (I think I made one save in perhaps seven or eight opportunities, and that was only because the ball basically went right to me.)

Having said all that, I still think ties suck. Your point is valid in that a keeper has little chance to do anything about penalty kicks, so why not make the players put the ball in from the 18 yard line during shootouts instead of from the penalty mark at 12 yards? Normal penalty kicks would still be taken from the penalty mark, but during overtime, why not move the players back a little? In this scenario, the keeper would have a much better chance to break on the ball, yet the shooter would still have a reasonable chance to score with a well-placed kick. Allowing the keeper to leave the goal line before the ball is kicked could also increase his chances a little bit.

Even with all the advantages the shooter has in shootouts, it's still up to them to put the ball into the net... So I don't know why the winner would feel unsatisfied about winning on shootouts. I guess it's better to win in the course of a normal game, but I'd frankly prefer "counting potatoes" if it means that after I've paid my $TICKET_PRICE I leave the game knowing someone won and someone lost.
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 07:32

But why must there be a winner and a loser?

I can't understand why American sports can't accept the concept that when 2 teams are so equally matched, it is fair to share the points. Basketball in particular - so many games are decided arbitrairily during the dying seconds that it's crazy, and I don't believe that the division standings can be truly representative because of this.

Even during the playoffs where one team does have to win, it's not much better - the LA Lakers go to the NBA final, while Sacramento get Jack Sh*t. Yet, after 7 games (336 minutes) - , it came down to the final 30 seconds, when the teams were playing the clock, not each other. That's hardly fair. In that situation, where someone has to win, I'd rather see a sudden death overtime whereby the first team to take a 9 point lead wins.

I'm not a fan of penalty shoot-outs in football either. I'd rather see repeated extra-times (non-Golden-Goal) with a decrementing team count. (eg, 9-a-side for the first period, 7-a-side for the second, 5-a-side for the third), but only in competitions where it really mattered.

Anyway, any attempts to change league games to disallow draws would be vigorously opposed by Littlewoods Pools and gamblers
Posted by: tonyc

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 07:49

Well, I actually like the fact that when the clock hits zero, you need to have more points than the other guy. I disagree that regular season games are decided "arbitrarily." You have 48 minutes to get more points than the other guy. If you're tied, you get another 5 minutes, and another 5... The teams aren't playing the clock during the game, they're playing the other team. If they're not ahead when the clock approaches zero, that means they didn't play as well as the other team did during the first 47 minutes and 30 seconds, and they deserve to lose if they can't produce on the last possession.

I also follow NHL hockey, which is also cursed with the concept of ties (and even gives a point for losses during overtime, a concept that boggles my mind.) I would prefer NHL games would have a 5 minute overtime followed by shootouts. Put your best scorers against their goalie and see who wants to win.

I guess it boils down to the fact that you're there to win, and in a tie, nobody wins. The objective of a game is to determine who the better team is, and no two teams are "evenly matched." Does the best team ALWAYS win? Nope. But not all ties are the result of two evenly-matched teams either, sometimes a team just gets lucky.

Incidentally, I like your decrementing team count idea, but I'd rather see the field made smaller and the games be 9 or 7 per side throughout the game. Having 11 people on a team makes it so difficult to score, no wonder there are so many "nil nil" ties.
Posted by: AlB

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 08:38

"I have a e36 3 series and it has loads of room just drop out your glovebox and nice easy access and i might be possible to mount another din slot in below the clock/trip computer thingy."

Negative on that DIN below the trip computer thingy....The big fakeroo from BMW....it only as deep as the storge bin there now sigh with a big'ol heater box behind that....thanks for the glovebox hint though I'll try it!!
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 04/06/2002 15:21

Glovebox has 6 or 8 screws from memory.

Two in the air vents above glovebox you might have to remove vents,

Two on the top lip of glove box (maybe last one didn't have it this one does)

Two either side of the actual glovebox under the door when closed

Two right under the glovebox

It should then pull towards you and drop down giving lots of room and hopefully access to the Din slot,

What i have done is cut a hole in the glovebox and lead into it a docked ethernet cable, serial cable, tuner cable, and aux in cable.

Posted by: MisterBeefhead

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 04/06/2002 17:55

Ok, so I've read through the above thread twice and still cannot glean a "near definite" answer - Are these more or less definitely going to happen? I have the opportunity to buy an original tuner module for $250, which would be worth it for me, but would much rather wait for the kit. Am I a fool if I let the $250 tuner slip by, or what?

I'm really going to be kicking myself if I end up with no tuner whatsoever.

Posted by: rob

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 05/06/2002 03:44

I don't suppose anyone will say "definite" until the prototypes are built and working - but Patrick just handed over a large amount of money to the PCB manufacturer to get the first few sets of boards, so I'm sure he fully intends to take it to market!

Rob
Posted by: smu

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 05/06/2002 05:12

Hi.

Even though I am certain that Patrick will make his tuner kit available (once he got it working, which I am sure he will), this might still be months away. Even if he uses the (immediately available) weather band version of the tuner module, I still guess that it will be another month or two away. So if you want a tuner, and it is worth the 250$ to you, I would buy that one. However, if you are willing to wait up to 4 month for the tuner kit from Patrick to become available (which would be realistic if he has to use the non-weatherband tuner modules), wait for it.

cu,
sven

PS: With this post, I should leave the "addict" state. Yippieh.
Posted by: MisterBeefhead

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 05/06/2002 07:23

I see your point, but I wouldn't want to not buy one of Patrick's kits after all his effort. I can wait. Perhaps I'll point the fellow towards Ebay (He has never trusted "playing internet").

Plus, I shall now recommend to my (other) financially impaired friend that she might want to consider selling her tuner off to one of the (apparently extraordinarily wealthy) buyers on Ebay.

Thanks for the input, fellows.
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 11:42

Hi.

I have been beavering away at a spreadsheet, working out the cost of making the kits available to you, the deserving public. It's looking eminently feasible, although it's going to cost me several thousand quid to get the first batch out the door.

At this time I'm not going definitely to commit to making large quantities just yet, but I'd say it was about 85% certain and rising that this will happen. Initially, the price I have come up with as being viable is about 110 UKP or 160 USD, plus shipping. This last item will obviously vary considerably depending on method and destination, and is still subject to research.

I am aiming to have credit card facilities in place by the time this all happens, although the first few might be done via Paypal or some such method. The intention is, assuming all goes well, to produce batches of 25 kits, shipping one batch before starting the next.

After a few batches, I should have the capital to increase the batch size, which will speed things up considerably.

The idea is that the kit will consist of the PCB set, the predrilled box, all the components, the mechanical mounting bits and pieces, precut lengths of wire and connectors to make the wiring harness, and the instructions, all in a sesame seed bun (or cardboard box, which will probably ship better). I will hopefully have something working for the Great Dutch Meet, and should have a better idea of everything that's currently up in the air a little.

At the moment, I'm not taking orders. When (and if) I'm ready, I will set up a web page where potential buyers can contact me with their details. Since the batch size is small, there will probably be a bit of a wait, but assuming all goes well it should be quite short.

Patrick
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 13:42

Excellent news! I await your anouncement of availibility with bated breath and open billfold.
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 13:55

I do believe we have a winner!
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 15:16

Cool does this mean the infamous patrick web site will be updated.

Intrestingly this was how i first discovered the empeg after going there trying to find out about self build jet engines.
Posted by: Attack

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 19:05

pca, If you have enough people willing to pay up front will you make more than 25 kits per batch? Or do you want to make less to make sure everything goes smoothly?
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 06/06/2002 19:47

Patrick, you get my vote to become a 'fellow'. I must thank
you for the all the work you did to get us 'tuner challenged' people a tuner. You sir, are a 'fellow' to me.
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 07/06/2002 13:10

At least at first, I'm only going to do batches of 25, at least partly due to logistical reasons.

pca
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 07/06/2002 16:07

$160 might be a little too steep for me.
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 07/06/2002 19:04

$160 is a hell of a lot better then $400+, I'm getting excited....
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 08/06/2002 10:00

It's definitely better.
Posted by: Aragon

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/06/2002 07:39

Hi,

I think this is an awesome idea. Not only is it a big money saver for the tunerless in need, but it sounds like fun! Put me down for a kit please


Thanks,
Aragon
Posted by: Applefool

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/06/2002 13:05

Any thoughts as to when this kit will be availabe and at what cost? If needed to be expressed here, please sign me up for one as well..
Posted by: lamer

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 07:03

Welcome to the world of low volume electronics... We are lucky the NRE and logistics are donated

Those of us that love the empeg and love talk radio are dehydrating from salivation. Funny - that word is so close to salvation... (heh heh)

Thanks Patrick.
Posted by: boxer

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 07:37

Once you've got the tuners going in batches bigger than 25, do you want to turn your hand to doing batches of 25 kits for the only thing in the universe that seems more desirable than the tuner, since it was discontinued: the Empeg?

Oops, only joking! I know it's not possible.
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 13:15

Oops, only joking! I know it's not possible

Well, it depends on your definition of not possible...

I mean, all the prospective kit builder neets is the ability to hand solder 256 pin uBGA package chips (since the 208 QFP version of the strongarm is no longer made). If you can do that, the rest of it's easy

Patrick
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update redux) - 10/06/2002 13:20

Hi.

Well, all the parts for the prototypes have arrived, and I'm going to be picking up the PCBs on Thursday afternoon on my way up to Cambridge. Assuming Rob can keep the car fairly steady on the way to the ferry, I should have one built by the meeting.

It may even work.

On another note, I see with some interest that this is now officially the longest thread ever on the BBS, by both number of views and number of replies. Wheeeeee!

Patrick
Posted by: AndrewT

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 14:44

hand solder 256 pin uBGA package chips

Could you supply boards with the BGA device pre-soldered?
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update redux) - 10/06/2002 14:44

Damn, may have to stow away on a plane to get to europe.....need tuner...
Posted by: snoopstah

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 15:03

Then you couldn't do the rest of the soldering

I.e. if you can solder the SA chip, the rest of the soldering will be easy for you. But if you can't solder the SA chip, the rest of the soldering would be somewhere between hard and impossible

A.
Posted by: AndrewT

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 17:07

What we are talking about here are two different assembly technologies:
I (and others I would presume) can solder FQFP at ~200 pins no problem at all (as per pre-existing Empegs).
As for BGAs or uBGA's, they are too high tech (and expensive) to work with - I'd rather someone else did them for me - until I aquire the necessary 'gear' that is
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 10/06/2002 19:41

Yeah I know. I'm just poor.
Posted by: lamer

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (again, update) - 11/06/2002 06:32

The necessary "gear" for large array BGAs (including 256 pin) is a oven and an X-ray machine. No, not your kitchen oven... You must be able to control the ramp rate of the temperature and ensure it peaks at a particular temp for a specific amount of time. These parameters depend on the device(s) installed. If you want to ensure the solder joints are good (no cold solder joints, etc.) visual inspection is virtually impossible, you must x-ray the populated PCB. This would be quite a job for the DIY to complete with any degree of reliability. Our local assembly houses will remove, reball, and replace a BGA for around $200 (incl. x-ray) so I assume it would be even cheaper for installation only. Beyond that, the new BGA would likely require a new multi-layer PCB layout; and multilayer fabrication is much more expensive than 2 layer (simple double sided).

That's the beauty of the empeg, it's a true custom open source computer in your dash. When I show this to the other engineers at the office (especially the guts of it) they all respond - WOW, and these guys are DIY types. We should consider ourselves priviledged to own one (or more ).
Posted by: Centrknol

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 15/06/2002 15:02

<quote>Having seen the resistor pack used in the button hack at the recent Boston Meet I don't think I'll be doing any soldering. </quote>

If the SMD resistor array is the problem don't use it :-)
As you can see in the attached picture it's a bit dirty but it works fine...
(The black thing is just an other resistor with heat schrinking tube for isolation)

Greetings, Robert
Posted by: schofiel

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/06/2002 16:37

They're real, I've seen one, and they are only six weeks away. Yaay!
Posted by: maczrool

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/06/2002 16:41

I not saying that putting together an S/PDIF board is as difficult as the tuner project, but I think it will be interesting to see who gets their kits out first. Good work and good luck.

Stu
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:10

Hi.

Well, I have had a chance to finish and test the tuner module, and it works perfectly so far. I still have to test the additional options, which will require a test program of some sort, but everything else works.

I will post pictures soon of what the final thing looks like. It works well, the reception is at least as good as the original empeg tuner in both AM and FM. Assuming I can test the "added value" by then, on monday I will order a hundred PCBs and a tray of tuner modules.

There are still some logistical issues to sort out, but by the time the boards come back I should have these sorted out. It looks like I'm definitely going ahead with it, at any rate.

pca
Posted by: tfabris

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:18

Posted by: Phoenix42

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:34


and to think people are still spending crazy money for them on ebay
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:45

yeah and for god sake don't tell any of them about this i want a patrick added value tuner
Posted by: tonyc

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:48

I haven't exactly been following this tuner thread as closely as I could have, so can someone explain what "value added" features are going to be on these new tuners?
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 21/06/2002 11:58

From what i can gather is that extras can be added and from a little chat to patric and what was said at the owners meet

Possibles are extra switched 12v outputs eg amp remote and aerial remote
Possible inputs Like pressure readings, temp readings
And my personal favorite was the possible G meter with an input to star field so that when you accelerate it goes faster, when you slow down it slows down and when you corner starfield goes round a corner.

What you do with these added abilites are up to you and you imagination and skill.

After meeting patrick anything is possible.
Posted by: lectric

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 22/06/2002 23:00

Duuuuude, The G-meter thingy tied to starfield would be COOOL!. Even cooler if it could be tied to the fonts on the info visuals. (Or even just 1 of 'em.)
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 23/06/2002 17:06

After meeting patrick anything is possible.

Yeah. If anyone ever looked at the PSU circuits on the empeg mainboard, they are _huge_ compared to the one he (GOD) build into one of his custom empeg add-ons (doing the same as the empeg one, but on approx. 1/4 its size).

I won't tell you guys _which_ custom add-ons he made though. Well, one of them was on this BBS some while back: a remote mountable empeg display. It actually consisted of two parts: One replacement for the empeg VFD board in the empeg, and one add-on-board that plugs to the rear of that VFD board, and up to several hundred (sic!) feet of cable in between.
But the other add-on was even more fun.... (can you say "tease"?)

cu,
sven

PS: My PC is copying about 80GB of data currently, at the unbelievably high data rate of approx. 0.6MByte/s, so it will be finished by, well, Tuesday morning or something like that. Sheesh, I knew Linux raid5 is slow on write operations, but _that_ slow?
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 23/06/2002 19:10


PS: My PC is copying about 80GB of data currently, at the unbelievably high data rate of approx. 0.6MByte/s, so it will be finished by, well, Tuesday morning or something like that. Sheesh, I knew Linux raid5 is slow on write operations, but _that_ slow?


Wow, that does sound slow, although I have no idea what numbers you should be getting..

But on my linux raid1 system, on a slow celery 500, a 2GB file just took 2.5 minutes to create, ie ~14MB/second, using approx 30% CPU. I know that calculating parity takes time, but 23 times longer???!

Some pointers - You really need the RAIDed drives all to be on independant IDE channels to be effective. I'm guessing that you already know this, and have additional channels on your mb / add-in card.
Have you checked your HDs DMA settings? Some linux distros don't optimise the HD settings by default, and leave things like DMA, write caching and multiple sector I/O disabled on boot. Use hdparm to find out what your current settings are, and to change them if necessary. Once you have found the optimum settings, I suggest scripting them in /etc/rc/rc.hdparm and making sure that script gets run from rc.sysinit before the fsck would kick in. (fsck'ing a large RAID partition without drive optimisations is painful, in fact if you can use ext3 or reiserfs, then I'd recommend it )

man hdparm is very informative.


Command being timed: "dd if=/dev/zero of=./zerofile bs=4k count=524287"
User time (seconds): 0.80
System time (seconds): 46.54
Percent of CPU this job got: 30%
Elapsed (wall clock) time (h:mm:ss or m:ss): 2:36.20
Average shared text size (kbytes): 0
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 24/06/2002 06:59

Hi genixia.

PS: My PC is copying about 80GB of data currently, at the unbelievably high data rate of approx. 0.6MByte/s, so it will be finished by, well, Tuesday morning or something like that. Sheesh, I knew Linux raid5 is slow on write operations, but _that_ slow?

Wow, that does sound slow, although I have no idea what numbers you should be getting..

But on my linux raid1 system, on a slow celery 500, a 2GB file just took 2.5 minutes to create, ie ~14MB/second, using approx 30% CPU. I know that calculating parity takes time, but 23 times longer???!


It seems like I had a problem with some interrupt-sharing between my secondary (dual channel) IDE controller card (which serves the raid and only the raid) and my graphics adapter. My Linux PC crashed (or hanged) about 5 minutes after I made that post. After switching the BIOS to _not_ assign an interrupt to my VGA, it is much quicker and seemingly also more stable.
At the moment, it is copying at approx. 3MB/sec while still resyncing the raid in the background (at 2.5M/sec). Those numbers really look much more sane.

Now my only problem left is that my second ethernet card stopped working last night, which forced me to do the bad thing to run my ADSL (pppoe) connection via the same NIC as my local LAN. Well, at least I now have enough disk space again.

cu,
sven
Posted by: rob

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 24/06/2002 07:12

Patrick did the layout for the car player PCB's as well, so maybe he just improved over time

Rob
Posted by: altman

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 24/06/2002 16:20

A lot of stuff is down to different design decisions; the smaller PSU layout is with components on both sides, something which we couldn't do as the cost of manufacture was too high. You can't really get the mk2 PSU a *lot* smaller and still satisfy the design rules - but double-sided, you can.

The chips were designed for high-density boards with components on both sides, eg laptops.

Hugo
Posted by: suomi35

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 14:51

I'd be happy to assemble tuner kits for the Colorado area
Posted by: drakino

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 16:28

I'd be happy to assemble tuner kits for the Colorado area

Woohoo, I'll keep that in mind when I get mine.
Posted by: AlB

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 16:38

Oh Please please please, a remote display + Maybe controls?!! That would be awsome!!

OK I won't be greedy just a remote display. Ican add my own switcheds or use the IR remote in a pinch
Posted by: nikko

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 18:28

Ok, this post is ungodly long now. Can someone bring me up to speed? Are these kits being made yet? I want one, so what should I do to make sure I get one? I signed up on some list a month or two ago, but haven't heard anything since, so I'm just trying to figure out what's up.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 18:31

They're not out yet. Keep reading from this point and you'll find out what to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone put something in the Announcements forum when it happens. Or at least started a new thread here.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 26/06/2002 20:20

Or at least started a new thread here.

I'm kind of hoping that it gets piggybacked in this thread so that people who aren't following it won't notice the announcement, giving me a better chance at snagging one of the first batch.
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 27/06/2002 03:25

Hi.

The part he demonstrated actually put the whole (original) display board in a remote place, including the controls that reside there. Boy, I wish you would have seen his other add-on, that was really superior to the remote VFD-board one IMHO. But no, I can't tell you what it was. But I would like both add-ons if he could sell them to me and if I could afford them, obviously.

cu,
sven
Posted by: boxer

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 27/06/2002 03:42

Remote display - any price - put me down for two!
Posted by: BartDG

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 27/06/2002 03:45

Erm, why can't you say anything about it? Did all you guys have to sign an NDA or something?

Actually I'm still eagerly awaiting the first report of the meet with pics etc...
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 27/06/2002 04:47

We didn't actually sign any NDA, but Patrick did ask us not to publish any info about his add-ons that wasn't already available on the BBS or other websites. If I did understand him correctly however, he is trying to get permission from his customers to publish info about those add-ons and sell them to other customers as well.
Any news on this from you, Patrick?
Rob: Are we allowed to tell more about your little DJ'ing thingy?

cu,
sven
Posted by: schofiel

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 28/06/2002 00:40

Job (and time) permitting, I will be trying to get a report and a web site together within the next week or so.
Posted by: wallen

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 28/06/2002 11:46


I would also pay up-front.
Posted by: eternalsun

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 28/06/2002 14:05

Actually there are many visuals that could be "g-forced" -- like the snow effect. You can have the dancing people fall over when you hit a corner hard enough. ..etc...

Calvin
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 28/06/2002 14:28

I can just imagine someone rolling their SUV trying to get the people to fall over.
Posted by: elvis

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 28/06/2002 14:47

That's a pretty cool idea.... You could write a visual like an airplane 'leveler thingy', perhaps with a gf meter in one corner
Posted by: tman

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 29/06/2002 02:54

What? A girlfriend meter?

If there is a g-force meter then we could make the empeg spin down the hard disks and turn itself off if we exceed the design specifications...

- Trevor
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 29/06/2002 08:25

If you exceed the design specifications at a constant level the empeg is the least of your worries
Posted by: tman

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 29/06/2002 08:33

What? You telling me that I can't take my empeg onto the space shuttle? How would we cope without music!?!

Although I do see your point... I personally would have thrown up/passed out/crushed to a pulp long before there is any chance of getting a car fast enough to exert a constant g force enough to exceed the design spec of a hard disk.

- Trevor
Posted by: eternalsun

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 01/07/2002 12:19

Or throw the car into a spin to plaster the people into the side of the screen. What would be *hilarious* is if the little people became injured a la crash test dummies when they hit the sides, top and bottom of the screen. :-D

Calvin
Posted by: eternalsun

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 01/07/2002 12:20

That would be sweet. Or perhaps a vector display (a dot in the center of the screen and an arrow).. At the pointy end of the arrow is a number indicating the G force, and the direction. :-D Then you can attempt to record skidpad numbers! :-D

Calvin
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 01/07/2002 21:27

Or throw the car into a spin to plaster the people into the side of the screen. What would be *hilarious* is if the little people became injured a la crash test dummies when they hit the sides, top and bottom of the screen.

Then if there was a little ambulance that drove in and carted them off...
Posted by: Waterman981

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 01/07/2002 21:48

I am thinking more and more of Carmegeddon right now...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 02/07/2002 03:19

How about the music slows down and speeds up with the g's. So when you hit your brakes real hard, the music will slow down and the voices will get real deep. Then when you hit the gas, it'll speed up and get high-pitched.
Posted by: mpelaz

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 02/07/2002 07:07

Hi everybody

I've been reading the thread fast at work, i've found it very interesting!
I would buy 2 radio kits for our 2 Riocar MKIIa. I work at electronics so it's not a problem for me to solder or even to make the PCB. I could solder here some kits if you want, or ask for prices here in Spain to produce the kits.
I can pay in advance too to have my kits, or whatever you think it's better.

Nice work!!

My e-mail : mpelaz at uni2 dot es (Please write in easy english ;-) )

Cheers:

Miguel
Madrid (Spain)
On a Seat Leon Cupra
Posted by: lockuplever

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 02/07/2002 09:13

This thread has become a tease. Everytime that I see someone has responded, I quickly check to see if it was Patrick, but no luck.
The story of my life.
Posted by: BleachLPB

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 02/07/2002 10:44

Agreed. Every day or couple days I see this thread up at the top of the list again and get excited. But someone's got to keep it alive... until there is real news.

I do like the accelerometer idea. There are so many possibilities. I like all the ideas and tie-ins with visuals, but the ability to do 0-60 times and quarter mile times would kick ass.
Posted by: rob

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 02/07/2002 11:20

You can talk about the DJ thingi but keep in mind that it is a concept prototype, not currently a product in development.

Rob
Posted by: eternalsun

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 02/07/2002 12:51

That would be funny!

Calvin
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 03/07/2002 08:07

Just to get back on the tuner topic... has a final price been arranged for these much sought after kits? Will there be a waiting list for the 1st batch or is it 1st come 1st serve?

Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 03/07/2002 12:33

Hi.

Wel, I have ordered a tray of tuner modules (ack! money!), and the PCBs are on order. Everything should turn up in 3-4 weeks, and shipping should be shortly thereafter for the first batch. Initially, I will be sending a small number to a few beta-builders, for sanity checks of the instructions and kits. Once the problems, if any, have been worked out, shipping to everyone else will start.

I'm still planning on batches of 25 kits at one go, and will make an announcement when they are ready. Please don't bombard me with emails requesting to be a test builder, they have already been picked.

pca
Posted by: eternalsun

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 03/07/2002 14:58

Why do I suspect Tony is one of them? :-D

Calvin
Posted by: tfabris

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 03/07/2002 15:10

Why do I suspect Tony is one of them?

At this time, I have not been contacted by Patrick for this purpose. I would be happy to help if he's interested (and I have offered). Although, since I already have a tuner, I don't actually need one of the kits and it might be better served by going to tunerless beta tester.
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 04/07/2002 03:35

Hi Patrick.

One question from me, since I have serious problems stuffing the tuner into the dash of my car:
In Amersfoort, you told us that we do not need to stack the two PCBs on top of each other, but could also connect them by a flat cable. How long do think that cable could get without affecting operation?
Also, how long could the connection between the tuner module and the empeg get?
A 10cm cable in the first case and a 50-80cm cable in the second case would make life a lot easier in my car.

cu,
sven

PS: How many beta builders did you pick? Do they know yet?
Posted by: thinfourth2

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 04/07/2002 03:58

Don't forget putting it in the glovebox it works very well for me
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 04/07/2002 04:56

The flat cable I had in mind as an option is in fact 10cm long, and the prototype unit has 50cm leads. These could be extended to a meter or so, but I'd be a little hesitant about going much over that.

PS: How many beta builders did you pick? Do they know yet?

There are five or six, and in a couple of cases it may be a pleasant surprise when they get their call-up papers

Patrick
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 04/07/2002 05:52

Hi Patrick

The flat cable I had in mind as an option is in fact 10cm long, and the prototype unit has 50cm leads. These could be extended to a meter or so, but I'd be a little hesitant about going much over that.

This really sounds good. I am surely looking forward to getting my hands on one or two of your babys. And I would surely like to test how long a cable can be made to still work resp. work without degradation in sound/receptioon quality, for each of the two possibilties.

cu,
sven
Posted by: masteriou

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 05/07/2002 01:20

Yippee, I just bought a second MKII (60GB) and don't have a tuner for it...I'll buy one!
Posted by: silmonkey

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/07/2002 03:21

boy am I late in the game... I never read the general section... teach me. coun't me in for one, possibly two I will find out on that one tomorrow.

thanks,
sil
Posted by: clsmith

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/07/2002 07:27

The sheer size of this thread kept me away for a while. Now that I've started reading I'm enthraled. Count me in for one!
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 16/07/2002 10:12

Hi.

Just a quick update to let everyone know this is still an ongoing situation. The modules and PCBs should be here within three weeks (the tuners were delayed a little for some reason), and everything else is in hand. The two maxim chips used will be ordered early next week, to arrive at the same time as the PCBs, and the remaining parts are stock items which will be acquired just before the PCBs turn up. I want to minimise the length of time stock is sitting around, especially since the components paid for in dollars are changing in value pretty fast at the moment!

On this matter, I have been looking at the cost to our "american cousins" (all my cousins are british, which is a pity. If they were american, they'd be further away), and since the exchange rate has shot up recently, the original $160 is now over $170 and still going up!

Now, obviously this isn't ideal, at least from your point of view. There is a limited amount I can do about it, but one thing is that since the tuner modules are being bought in US$ as well, I may be able to negotiate a lower price on them and use this to offset the change in rates. I'll try to keep it down as much as possible.

In addition, I'm now thinking it might be best, after the 5 or 6 boards in the alpha-test group have gone out, to do batches of 50 tuners instead of 25. I'd like to be able to buy larger amount of parts to get the cost down and shorten the delivery time, but obviously there are limits to what's feasible. Well, we'll see what happens.

pca
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 16/07/2002 11:04

Oh the fun of the international market...

This is about the only reason why I actually like the Euro currency: it is valid in a lot of countries now and therefore you don't have to think about exchange rates anymore as long as you only negotiate deals in those countries.

Oh, lately I found a second reason to like the Euro: Trips to the US are becoming a lot cheaper about every second week.

Anyway: Did you order enough PCBs and tuners for the first batch, or just enough for the alpha-test group? I can't wait to get my hands on two or three of those modules. But one would be a good start (don't want to keep others waiting).

cu,
sven

Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 17/07/2002 04:32

Did you order enough PCBs and tuners for the first batch, or just enough for the alpha-test group?

There are 72 tuner modules and 100 PCBs on order.

pca
Posted by: frog51

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 05:19

Naah - at risk of starting an offtopic flamewar, I'd recommend not going for a BMW unless you can afford a top end 7 or 8 series, or an M3 or M5.

They're massively overpriced - you buy the name!

Of course I only look at cars from a driving perspective, so I have no time for luxury cars anyway, so I am biased towards the Impreza, the Evo 6 or 7, the Lotus Elise etc etc - not necessarily the most comfortable or attractive of cars, but boy can they be pushed hard!!
Posted by: frog51

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 05:24

None of my friends even vaguely like the footie (although some of their wives do!) - I need a sail or engine to keep me interested.

Two upsides of the World Cup - the parking in town was great whenever a match was on, and meetings were very short so folk could rush off and watch a game:-)

Luckily I'm scottish so we have no need to support a team anyway
Posted by: peter

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 05:33

Luckily I'm scottish so we have no need to support a team anyway

The token Pict at Empeg solved this problem by the simple measure of supporting whoever was playing England...

Peter
Posted by: frog51

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 08:19

That option does always amuse - some of my clients are fervently nationalistic and actually buy Brazil/Germany/whoever is playing England tops.

I always enjoy going to the pub during rugby matches - the Scots go to get drunk. If we lose, we party with the winners. If we win, we're astonished and get horribly drunk partying with the losers.

All pretty sociable really, but not so good for our livers.
Posted by: jets

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 09:32

i'm kinda confused by this thread. are they are the tuners available?
Posted by: wfaulk

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 09:35

Not yet.

Edit: Well, the original tuners were available, but have sold out, and if you can find one ``used'', it's likely to be outrageously priced. The ones in this thread are 3rd-party/hobbyist* tuners and are not yet available.

* Albeit a hobbyist who has more than the average amount of insider knowledge.
Posted by: NasalGoat

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 17/07/2002 13:02

Is there a webpage or a list somewhere I can sign up on to be in the first 100 order?

I'm happy to pre-pay.
Posted by: revlmwest

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 17/07/2002 13:03

....or even the first 500!
Posted by: AndrewT

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 1) - 17/07/2002 14:13

Is there a webpage or a list somewhere I can sign up on to be in the first 100 order?

Not yet. Keep an eye on this thread - you're sure to read about a signup page (or whatever) here first.
Posted by: Derek

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (update the next) - 17/07/2002 17:11

Ah rugby, now there's a game
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 08:38

Hi.

Still waiting for parts, I'm afraid. Coming soon, watch this space!

In the meantime. I believe I may not have posted any pictures of the built tuner prototype. So, here's one.

Pca
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 08:39

And here's another.

pca
Posted by: tfabris

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 08:43

Wow. Is it just the photo angle, or did that turn out to be almost exactly the same size as the original tuner module?
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 08:45

Very, very close. The original is 82mm x 82mm x 35mm, and my one is 82mm x 80mm x 55mm.

pca
Posted by: tfabris

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 08:49

Wow.

I mean, just.... Wow.
Posted by: Derek

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 09:43

And Tony, if you'd been in Amersfoort you could have seen it in real life! and if you were really really lucky you might have even been able to touch it!

Actually not *all* the bits were soldered in by then, but most were. Patrick has done well, especially considering they went and made the tuner module itself bigger - it's a good bit bigger than the one in the SonicBlue tuners.
Posted by: Guschti

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 11:51

...and I hope it wont be that big so it would not fit into my car ;-)
Well I think pca didn't make it higher than the empeg itself - otherwise you would have a problem putting it through your car-stereo-hole...

can't wait to order the parts - my iron is hot already :-)
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 15:54

I'm sooooooo excited!
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 19:21

Oh, dear. We have to solder all those little itty-bitty parts? Spending $600 for a tuner an ebay is starting to look like a good option now...
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 19:29

Send me a kit and $200, and I'll put it together for you
Posted by: wfaulk

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 19:29

I don't think you have a strong grasp on the concept of itty-bitty. Check out Brian's Lighted Buttons' resistor pack.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 23:25

Yeah, I read those threads, and some of the links that were posted. I've seen the guts of plenty of clock radios, so I'm quite well aware that this is Brobdingnagian in comparison... but still... my fingers have a hard enough time poking wires into a breadboard.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 29/07/2002 23:29

Lovely offer, but I think I'll ask around the engineers at work. They have to repair all the video gear and stuff. If they just send it out of house to do that, you may find yourself $200 richer...
Posted by: elvis

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 04/08/2002 02:55

BUMP DAMN IT!!!

I'm looking for one for my 325i. Since I'm pretty sure I'm not going to put the empeg in my '7 I now need a tuner. (only 1 Din.)
Posted by: lofreq

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 04/08/2002 17:04

i dont know if you or others mite be serious about this offer - i will be buying a tuner but i have no way to put it together myself. as it is i will have to hunt around for places here in NZ willing to perform the button hack for me. but i dont want to go thru that for this tuner as well - so would anyone be willing to help me assemble a kit for a small fee...? as in, i'd buy the unit, send it to u, then u assemble, and send to me.

or something?

my soldering iron tip is the size of my toe.
Posted by: maczrool

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 04/08/2002 17:18

We can assemble it for you. If you don't mind sending the kit all the way to the US. We are well geared to assemble those kits because of our little business building the digital out boards for the Empeg.

Stu
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 04/08/2002 17:47

I was joking at the time. But I am thinking about offering such a service anyway. I think that $200 is probably overkill though. Patrick has gone to the effort and expense of creating such a kit for the good of the community, at great financial risk to himself, and the last thing that I want to do is profit from his efforts..That being said, if I can find a way to earn the cost of a couple of kits by assembling a few for other people, then it'll keep my wife happy. At this stage, I can't really set a realistic figure though, as I don't know how long it's going to take me to assemble each kit...My guess is that if they were to take ~2 hours, then $100 would be fair - and in line with what Mark does the button LED hack for.

Patrick - Do you have a guesstimate of assembly time? Are you okay with this?



Posted by: AlB

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 04/08/2002 19:12

This doesn't look as tough as the lighted knob hack, can anyone say whether this will require "extra-ordinary" soldering capabilities. I have assembled kits and done pcb stuff, does this have SMC stuff??
Posted by: genixia

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 04/08/2002 19:45

No, it isn't as (dextrously) tough as the LED hack. Patrick decided early on to create a though-hole kit, and not to use SMC, so as to make it possible for the hobbyist (as opposed to the professional/fanaticist )...so it sounds like you should be ok. I still wouldn't recommend it as a first kit for the complete novice though (practice your skills on something cheaper and easier!).
Posted by: Derek

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 05/08/2002 09:31

Um, I think some SMC stuff did manage to sneak in there, but nothing really really really small. You'll have to check with PCA on the details though
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 07/08/2002 04:33

Do you have a guesstimate of assembly time?

What, for me? Or mere humans?

The prototype took about three hours to build, but I was doing it in stages and testing as I went. Also, it was with a portasol butane soldering iron, since my main solder station was on a ferry to Holland, and that was all I had in my pocket toolkit.

I would think that with experience of both soldering and building this particular kit, a compentent solderist could put one together in about 45 minutes or so.

I don't have any real problem with people making money off other people to build the kits, as long as it's a reasonable charge. It would seem a little unfair to charge as much as the kit for building it, for instance. A friend of mine in the UK has offered to put them together for people also in the UK, and I have had similar offers from various people around the world.

It should be possible to set things up so that a kit is sold to person A, sent to person B who assembles it, then forwards it to person A and charges them for the build. That would seem to be the most efficient method.

pca
Posted by: pca

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 07/08/2002 04:35

No, it's totally through-hole construction. Some of the components (resistors, mainly) are pretty small due to lack of space on the board(s), but there is no surface mount assemble involved.

pca
Posted by: pca

Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 04:37

Look what just turned up on my desk...

pca
Posted by: pgrzelak

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 04:50

Ooooh!!!!
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 04:51

Ahhhhh!!!

pca
Posted by: CrackersMcCheese

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 05:06

Patrick, is there going to be a signing-up sheet on here? Or a separate website. Will this be the 1st place to look in any case?
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 05:26

The way it's probably going to work is that I will set up a website with information, downloads, and order taking as soon as I am ready to start shipping. The credit card facilities I will start with are explicitly not usable via the web, IE they say that I am not allowed to accept CC numbers via email. It has to be done via mail or phone. The secure web site CC facilities cost considerably more if the turnover isn't very large, and at least at first I'm trying to keep the costs down.

However, in many ways this is a good thing. It is at least more secure. I will take orders via email, inculding a vaild phone number and time offset. When the order is ready to go out, I will phone the person in question and get the CC number, charge it, and ship the product. This pretty much assures that the number can't go adrift in the net, and that I haven't been given a fraudulent number.

Anyway, I am still waiting for PCBs, which will be a couple of weeks. I'll announce the availability of the tuners here when they're ready.

pca
Posted by: JaBZ

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 07/08/2002 06:09

no probs dude, Im in NZ too, I can probably assemble it for you, along wiv da fee, I work for a laptop repair co, we do board level repairs as well, so have most equipment at work.

I however already have a original Tuner for my empeg, however will think about this one since it has more features
but depends on price for me.

cheers,
Jai
Posted by: TommyE

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 07:30

Hoho, crazy man...

TommyE
Posted by: AlB

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 12:16

Ummm Mine would be the one in the lower right hand corner. If you look really close you will see my name on it ;0)
Posted by: andym

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 07/08/2002 13:41

I think I'm going to have to start monitoring this thread on a minute by minute basis! Don't want to miss out on this one...
Posted by: lamer

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 07/08/2002 20:17

What? No SOT-23's or 0402 SMT resistors? Where's the fun in that ?
Posted by: maczrool

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 08/08/2002 10:32

In reply to:

What? No SOT-23's or 0402 SMT resistors? Where's the fun in that ?




Take a crack at our unassembled digital output board kits when they become available later this month. No 0402 SMD resistors or caps, but plenty of 0805s and even an SOT-23. Should be great fun for you .

Stu
Posted by: elvis

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 08/08/2002 12:56

So the real question is.......

Where should I send the money?
Posted by: elvis

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 08/08/2002 13:04

In reply to:

I am thinking more and more of Carmegeddon right now




Does anyone remember the 007 aston martin in 'The Living Daylights"?

He had missiles mounted under the bumper and used his radio to aim them. The controls on the Rio Car are just about perfect for something like that.

We could use the serial interface to control the firing hardware, and the nic to recieve simplified IR data......
Posted by: NasalGoat

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/08/2002 09:02

When it's time for the signup, please PLEASE PLEASE put it in a new thread and let this one die.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 09/08/2002 18:37

New thread? Never. This is the Thread That Will Not Die. It's the Jason Voorhees of the bbs.

Speaking of which, it seems Freddy vs. Jason got the greenlight to begin production.
Posted by: fink08

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 13/08/2002 20:03

Looks very impressive PCA. By the looks of the thread it seems that 72 tuners might not be enough. I would request 3 for myself Keep up the good work.
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 14/08/2002 07:53

Oh, I'm going to make more than that, don't worry. I'm just starting out small for reasons of financial stability.

pca
Posted by: Phireman19

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 14/08/2002 08:11

So any date when the tuners will be ready ?????
Do I have to sign up for one or how do I go about gettin one?

Thanks guys!
Posted by: Tim

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 14/08/2002 08:30

It is now officially impossible to find anything in this thread

Is somebody talking about building an accelerometer pcb?
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 14/08/2002 09:17

It is now officially impossible to find anything in this thread

Flat mode rules!
Posted by: Tim

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 14/08/2002 14:33

I agree, but that's why I couldn't find any specific info on the accelerometer that people were talking about (the FlanceDoor people being flattened posts).
Posted by: Satan_X

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (updated update) - 14/08/2002 17:43

Damn, this thread needs it's own forum...
Posted by: gbeer

gyros that's the ticket - 14/08/2002 20:49

How about adding one, or three, of those cheep gyros used in radio control helicopters?
Posted by: Tim

Re: gyros that's the ticket - 14/08/2002 22:58

Thats an idea. I would love to see something like an accelerometer for the empeg... that would just be a blast to screw around with.
Posted by: shapeless

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 16/08/2002 03:28

there are news for the tuner?
Posted by: rdunmow

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of - 18/08/2002 07:42

I too would be interested in a Tuner.

Richard
Posted by: smu

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 18/08/2002 09:04

Hi.

Just wanted to repeat my offer to assemble tuners for others. I expect a fee of 30-40$ would be fair. So I offer the assembly of a tuner for 40$ including worldwide shipping. Any additional tuner will be 5$ less, starting with the 5th tuner, each tuner will be assembled for 30$.
I advise that everyone who does not assemble the kit on his own tries to find someone either in his own country or in the European Community do to it for him. This way, the tuner wouldn't need to pass through customs twice, possibly increasing the cost considerably. US citizens might be able to have a Canadian assemble the kit for them and vice versa for the same reason.
This being said, I happen to be in the EC.
I am accepting credit card payments through paypal at an additional fee of 1$ for each tuner.

cu,
sven
Posted by: nikko

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 18/08/2002 09:23

Um.....can someone tell me if these things are actually available yet? I can't figure that out. This thread is a bit unwieldy.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 18/08/2002 09:28

They are not. I imagine you will see a big announcement when they become available.
Posted by: Ralyon

Re:Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 2) - 19/08/2002 08:06

You mean something bigger than this thread is already.
Posted by: grgcombs

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 19/08/2002 13:00

Could Paypal not be your middle man to accept credit cards? Also, in the past I've used Kagi.com ... They accept an enormous amount of payment types. You would use them for more of an ongoing relationship, as you get a paycheck at the end of the month, every month.

Greg
Posted by: pca

Re: Tuners, empeg, for the use of (status update 3) - 19/08/2002 17:07

I have heard and read enough about Paypal to feel that I don't really want to entrust them with any amount of money...

pca