Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage.

Posted by: genixia

Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 15:40

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/09/gunman_kills_4_at_ohio_heavy_metal_show/

What is the World coming to?
Posted by: Heather

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 15:51

Quote:
What is the World coming to?


Uh, traditional family values?

I'm just gonna sit back and wait for some halfwit to step foward and blame the music for the incident, and then claim that jesus (not psychiatric care) could have prevented this whole mess. Or worse, a Fred Phelps style true wingnut to come out and say they got what they deserved.
Posted by: andym

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:11

Well, if the US government must allow anyone to own a gun. Why are you surprised? I'm surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.
Posted by: Heather

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:26

Quote:
Well, if the US government must allow anyone to own a gun. Why are you surprised?


There are actually restrictions, and they vary state to state.

But gun ownership isn't the whole picture. I grew up in a house with serveral guns, own a bunch of them now (inherited), and I carry a concealed weapon around the Bronx every day (you know, where we shoot at each other in the streets every day for entertainment, or so the rest of the world thinks), which was not an easy permit to get, I had to have some rather "important" strings pulled to get one (I'd rather not, but some piece of subhuman filth of a jesus freak has decided to threaten myself and my parents for our political beliefs). I live with someone who's job involved wearing a kevlar vest to work and carrying a gun. I've had mental health problems, and learned how to shoot at a young age. As have many other people I know.

Why in the fsck has it not occured to any of us to do something like this, much less actually go ahead with the idea? A universal gun ban ain't gonna fix it.
Posted by: ashmoore

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:38

Amen to that!
In the UK, a pretty much total gun (and all sorts of sharp objects) ban has been in place for quite a while.
Has gun based crime been reduced?
Not according to the latest figures I read.
Is it harder for criminals to obtain guns?
No.
Is the average citizen any safer?
Given the answers to the two previous questions, obviously not.

Britain even banned certain sharp knives after some lunatic went wild in a school. Of course that did nothing to stop the gangs of Stanley Knife toting morons.

Next in line is alcohol (to prevent drink related crime), cars (to prevent drive bys and fast getaways) etc etc.



url fixed
-- l0ser
Posted by: andy

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:43

So you think the UK would be safer place if more people were legal allowed to own hand guns ???
Posted by: Heather

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:48

Quote:
So you think the UK would be safer place if more people were legal allowed to own hand guns ???


No, not at all. As a matter of fact, all other things being equal, it would probably remain about the same.
Posted by: ashmoore

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 16:48

Quote:
So you think the UK would be safer place if more people were legal allowed to own hand guns ???

Possibly, but the point is that creating new laws and ban never actually fixes anything.
Its just a check box and a feelgood factor for the next election.
Check the crime stats before and after the gun ban.
Violent and gun related crime was higher in 04 that before the ban.
They don't even bother tracking stabbings after the knife ban.

Its all an illusion for make people Feel safer.
Posted by: andym

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 19:13

A criminal will get hold of a gun because he/she knows the sort of people who can get them. A mentally ill nutter is unlikely to be able to catch a bus, never mind find a person willing and able to get them a gun and have the funds with which to buy one.
Posted by: Heather

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 19:26

Quote:
A mentally ill nutter is unlikely to be able to catch a bus


Not here in the states. Here they get elected president.

Quote:
never mind find a person willing and able to get them a gun and have the funds with which to buy one.


Uh, they're not cheap when they're legal either. And not all crazies are broke and twitching out on street corners. A good psycho can blend in easily with society. It doesn't make them any less dangerous.
Posted by: robricc

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 20:19

Quote:
A good psycho can blend in easily with society. It doesn't make them any less dangerous.

Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where, uh, Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Christy, take off your robe. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. Sabrina, remove your dress. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Sabrina, why don't you, uh, dance a little. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as, uh, anything I've heard in rock. Christy, get down on your knees so Sabrina can see your ass. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and, uh, Against All Odds. Sabrina, don't just stare at it, eat it. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 20:51

Are you implying that Patrick Bateman was dangerous?
Posted by: mdavey

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 21:00

Quote:
Its all an illusion for make people Feel safer.


Following that logic, one could argue that the gun situation in the US is intended to make people feel less safe.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 09/12/2004 21:18

Rob - thank god for Google, or else I'd have NO idea what you were talking about. I've not that film (American Psycho BTW for anyone else who hasn't seen it). Worth a rent?

-Zeke
Posted by: robricc

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 00:35

The movie was pretty forgettable except for that scene. It's still probably worth seeing.
Posted by: bonzi

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 08:28

Quote:
Following that logic, one could argue that the gun situation in the US is intended to make people feel less safe.

The matter of fact is that virtually any political move in this area (and most others), be it banning of all guns, removing the restriction on assault rifles, forming the DHS and appointing a 'tough cop' as its boss, putting air marshals on board airplanes or declaring they are not needed, you name it, almost every such move is about appearance. It is appearance, how the voters feel, not the actual situation, what wins elections.

Speaking of gun ownership and prevalence of crimes commited using them, the correlation is far from simple. I cannot find the source now, but I remember reading about a study comparing the two, and finding some countries (I think one of them was Canada) with similar gun ownership 'penetration' as in USA, but with fewer violent crimes per capita by far.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 12:18

Further the uncertainty, we also must remember that correlation does not mean causation, so even if there is correlation one still cannot draw a conclusion. Can countries such as Canada & the US be accurately compared? They have very diffent population demographics, despite being right next to eachother.

Not an easy question in the least.

-Zeke
Posted by: bonzi

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 12:46

Quote:
Further the uncertainty, we also must remember that correlation does not mean causation, so even if there is correlation one still cannot draw a conclusion. Can countries such as Canada & the US be accurately compared? They have very diffent population demographics, despite being right next to eachother.

Not an easy question in the least.


Indeed. But lack of correlation rules out causation, so, obviously, the problem in USA are not weapons themselves. Of course, in trying to figure out the causative factor(s), we run into danger of gross generalizations.... which can sometimes be useful, nevertheless.

For example, Miroslav Krleza ('z' has a 'hacek'; in Latin2: ž), a late Croatian poet and novelist, wrote some 80 years ago what typically makes Croat and Serb nationalist proud: to Serb it is "Glorious Serbian artillery" (which hardly ever won a war), to Croat "The First Croatian nail factory" (with 10 perhaps employees, being first an only for decades). Both pathetic and laughable, but differently so. You have to know us to understand how those generalizations hit the nail squarely on the head (or however the phrase goes ).

So, what would be comparable to USA vs. Canada?
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 14:15

"So, what would be comparable to USA vs. Canada?"

That is a pretty tricky question, depending on _which_ American you asked. I can't even venture a guess for our Canadian neighbors. The mighty split that was exposed in the course of the last two presidential elections would most likely inform most answers.

For myself, I honestly am not sure what makes me proud of being an American. I would guess it would be my mother's long family history in New England, and my Father's Swiss lineage than emigrated here in the late 1800's and ran a very large successful farm in Iowa (I figure they got there, saw all that FLAT land and said: "You want how much? SOLD!"). So I guess what makes me proud of being an American is the somewhat hackney'd 'American Dream' - of the US as a place where imigrants come, have the chance to work hard and succeed; or where if you're smart & work hard you can have the chance of success despite your class background. I still see that story being played out today, our Chinese born purchasing agent, the Indian software firm next door that plays cricket in the parking lot in the summer evenings... I think that's what sets the US apart. I know it's not perfect - the interment of Japanese Americans during WWII, the closed door to the European Jews during the rise of the Reich and the often poor treatment of newcomers by those already here (both past & present day).

Anybody care to speak for Canada (or the US, as I'm sure I've well represented most American opinions)?

-Zeke
Posted by: bonzi

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 14:42

Thank. What I wanted to say is that being proud of different things probably makes one behave differently. Indeed, our neighborous were historically more aggresive, being proud of their "glorious artillery'.

In your answer (which I imagine would be pretty common to Americans, regardless of red/blue divide - OK, some would add to "American dream" religious values, military power, "leader of the free world" thing) I don't see anything that would explain higher prevalence of violence compared to Canada. You mentioned different demographics - do you mean more minorities in USA, illegal immigrants, generaly wider social gaps, something else?

P.S. And I don't think I am able to adequatly explain why I am proud to be Croat, although I somewhat am (certainly not because of that 19th century nails factory and its successors, or because of our leadership ) Recently I also catch myself being a bit proudish of being European, too, probably because of feeling that my continent is finally going in reasonably right direction.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 15:13

"You mentioned different demographics - do you mean more minorities in USA, illegal immigrants, generaly wider social gaps, something else?"

Well, they have easier access to cannabis in Canada, and they get their fights out on the hockey rink.

Really, I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. I don't know if in general the gaps between the wealthy and less well off (I don't say poor because in my opinion with only a few exceptions, comparing the North American 'poor' to say, Sub-Saharan African 'poor' puts things into perspective, so I say less well off) are as great in Canada as they are in the US. I think that pinpointing the causes of increased violence is a very difficult task. I believe that violence levels are affected by (in no particular order): education, wealth, self-image, booze/drug prevalence, and feelings of hope or hopelessness. Monetary/physical goods are only part of it.

There's a line from a movie: "I'm not poor, I'm broke. Broke is a temporary condition, poor is a state of mind."

I don't think more minorities is a negative, it's the lifeblood of this country and always should be.

Your noted omissions to my answer are on the money, I did not mention these things on purpose, as I don't think we have too much to be proud of on a lot of those fronts. Not to say the western civilization's core tenets - science, rationalism, democracy, tolerance aren't worth fighting for, but I'm not sure those things aren't more often used as a pretext for less lofty goals.

I don't think anyone really has a solid, cogent answer to the difference in crime rates between the US and Canada, I know I don't; I only have suspicions.

-Zeke
Posted by: bonzi

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 15:26

Well, I can only agree on all accounts.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 18:29

Quote:
I don't say poor because in my opinion with only a few exceptions, comparing the North American 'poor' to say, Sub-Saharan African 'poor' puts things into perspective, so I say less well off

The difference between these two groups is that in sub-Saharan Africa, all of the people are poor. In Detroit, the poor are constantly driven past by Cadillacs with their windows rolled up and doors locked. There's a huge difference between living in desperation with everyone else you know and seeing no way out and living in desperation with glorious success staring you in the face every day, and that, I imagine, tends to engender hatred.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 19:01

Bitt - Agree completely, I just wanted to highlight the difference between the truly destitute and the US/North American definition of poor. While probably not relevant to the discussion about violence here, I thought I needed to mention it. The deseparation factor / death of hope is rolled up in the other issues such as health/education/job/substance abouse. They're all facets of the die.

I don't think the warlords in sub-saharan Africa are particularly poor, nor corrupt government officials who syphon off oil wealth instead of helping their countrymen.

I was also somewhat trying to point out the differentiation between the desperation of being poor and the monetary situation of being broke.

-Zeke
Posted by: DLF

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 19:13

Ding Ding! "Tell him what he's won, Johnny!"

Quote:
Quote:
Its all an illusion for make people Feel safer.


Following that logic, one could argue that the gun situation in the US is intended to make people feel less safe.
Posted by: DLF

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 19:18

I liked it a bit better, but all due to Christian Bale's hilarious-yet-terrifying performance.

Quote:
The movie was pretty forgettable except for that scene. It's still probably worth seeing.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 20:02

Quote:
I was also somewhat trying to point out the differentiation between the desperation of being poor and the monetary situation of being broke.

"Poor sounds permanent. Broke can be fixed."
Posted by: DLF

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 20:03

Quote:
... reading about a study comparing the two, and finding some countries (I think one of them was Canada) with similar gun ownership 'penetration' as in USA, but with fewer violent crimes per capita by far.

You read about; I just watched the movie. No easy answers to be found either way.
Posted by: Ezekiel

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 20:12

George Carlin on Airport Security:
Quote:
I'm getting tired of security at the airport, There's too much of it. I'm tired of some fat chick with a double-digit IQ and a triple-digit income rootin' around inside my bag for no reason and never finding anything. Haven't found anything yet. Haven't found one bomb in one bag. And don't tell me, "Well, the terrorists know their bags are going to be searched, so now they're leaving their bombs at home." There are no bombs! The whole thing is [censored]' pointless'

[censored] is that? In fact, there's a whole list of lethal objects they allow you to take on board. Theoretically, you could take a knife, an ice pick, a hatchet, a straight razor, a pair of scissors, a chain saw, six knitting needles and a broken whiskey bottle, and the only thing they would say to you is, "That bag has to fit all the way under the seat in front of you."

And if you didn't take a weapon on board, relax. After you've been flying for about an hour, they're gonna bring you a knife and fork! They actually give you a [censored] knife. It's only a table knife, but you could kill a pilot with a table knife. It might take a couple of minutes.

[censored][censored], you could probably strangle two of them, one with each hand. That is, if you were lucky enough to catch 'em in that little kitchen area. Just before they break out the [censored]' peanuts. But you could get the job done. If you really cared enough.

So why is it they allow a man with big, powerful hands to get on board an airplane? I'll tell you why. They know he's not a security risk, because he's already answered the three big questions. Question number one: "Did you pack your bags yourself?"

"No, Carrot Top packed my bags. He and Martha Stewart and Florence Henderson came over to the house last night, fixed me a lovely lobster Newburg, gave me a full body massage with sacred oils from India, performed a four-way around-the-world and then packed my bags. Next question." "Have your bags been in your possession the whole time?"

"No. Usually the night before I travel-just as the moon is rising-I place my suitcases out on the street corner and leave them there, unattended, for several hours. Just for good luck. Next question."

"Has any unknown person asked you to take anything on board?"

"Well, what exactly is an 'unknown person'? Surely everyone is known to someone. In fact, just this morning, Kareem and Youssef Ali ben Gabba seemed to know each other quite well. They kept joking about which one of my suitcases was the heaviest."

And that's another thing they don't like at the airport. Jokes. You can't joke about a bomb. Well, why is it just jokes? What about a riddle? How about a limerick? How about a bomb anecdote? You know, no punch line, just a really cute story. Or suppose you intended the remark not as a joke but as an ironic musing? Are they prepared to make that distinction? I think not! And besides, who's to say what's funny?

Airport security is a stupid idea. It's a waste of money and it's there for only one reason: to make white people feel safe. That's all it's for. To provide a feeling, an illusion, of safety in order to placate the middle class. The authorities know they can't make airplanes safe; too many people have access. You'll notice that drug smugglers don't seem to have a lot of trouble getting their little packages on board, do they? No. And God bless them, too.

And by the way, an airplane flight shouldn't be completely safe. You need a little danger in your fife. Take a [censored]' chance, will ya? What are you gonna do, play with your prick for another 30 years? Are you gonna read People and eat at Wendy's till the end of time? Take a [censored]' chance! Besides, even if they made all of the airplanes completely safe, the terrorists would simply start bombing other places that are crowded: pawnshops, crack houses, titty bars and gang bangs. You know, entertainment venues. The odds of your being killed by a terrorist are practically zero. So I say, relax and enjoy the show.

You have to be realistic about terrorism. Ya gotta be a realist: Certain groups of people--Muslim fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and just plain guys from Montana--are going to continue to make life in this country very interesting for a long, long time. That's the reality. Angry men in combat fatigues talking to God on a two-way radio and muttering incoherent slogans about freedom are eventually going to provide us with a great deal of entertainment.

Especially after your stupid [censored]' economy collapses all around you, and the terrorists come out of the woodwork. And you'll have anthrax in the water supply and sarin gas in the air conditioners; there'll be chemical and biological suitcase bombs in every city, and I say, "Relax, enjoy it! Enjoy the show! Take a [censored]' chance. Put a little fun in your life." To me, terrorism is exciting. I think the very idea that someone might set off a bomb in Macy's and kill several hundred people is exciting and stimulating, and I see it as a form of entertainment!

But I also know most Americans are soft, frightened, unimaginative people who have no idea there's such a thing as dangerous fun. And they certainly don't recognize good entertainment when they see it. I have always been willing to put myself at great personal risk for the sake of entertainment. And I've always been willing to put you at great personal risk for the same reason.

[censored] with you any time they want, as long as you're willing to put up with it. Which means, of course, any time they want. Because that's the way Americans are now. They're always willing to trade away a little of their freedom for the feeling, the illusion--of security.
Posted by: bonzi

Re: Dimebag (ex-Pantera axeman) murdered onstage. - 10/12/2004 21:09

I missed the film when it was playing in our theaters... Thanks for the link.