Here we go again.. London this time..

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I know of no one who loves them, thankfully. The thing is, for what they've been doing it doesn't seem like they need that many "willing followers".

I don't (think) I know anybody, either, but life is full of surprises. I once worked side-by-side with a guy for 6 months (on a psych ward, no less) before discovering that he spent his evenings recruiting for the KKK. Who knows what lies in the hearts of BBS lurkers?

I guess more to the point, I intentionally made that allowance because there definitely people out there who are feeling satisfaction over today's bloody events, and they all don't have some insane world view (as often characterized by the media and our politicians) but have one that at least has internal (and maybe external) consistency. I wonder, if the state of Texas was being invaded by hordes looking to imprison the last Christians on planet earth, might we expect JeffS to wrap himself in dynamite and mingle among the invaders? It is an absurd question, but I use it to consider how some of these suicidal martyrs see themselves.

Anyhow, no shortage of suicidal martyrs, and they are rational enough to scheme, to plan in detail and to execute in a very determined way. And terrorists -- or so-called terrorists if that is your leaning -- always have the upper hand from the standpoint of what they need to do to "win".

Grumble.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 17:31

Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.

Posted by: tman

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 17:31

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I hope everyone here is unaffected, since I can't reasonably hope that no one at all was.

Everybody okay over here. All my family were late to work today luckily so were all still at home when it happened. Tracked down all my friends that work in the area as well.

Posted by: JeffS

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 17:43

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Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.

True. I think that Al-Qaeda doesn't see civillians as innocent, but I'm not going to try to hard to get in their heads.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 17:47

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Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.

I agree re: major difference. To me, though, it isn't a matter of how we perceive these people -- how we make that comparison -- as much as how *they* perceive themselves. I'm betting they would see the comparison differently.

Throughout history "oppressed/threatened minorities" have turned to terror tactics. Some of them get viewed less harshly, I think, in the glow of history (like they ultimately prevailed and got to write some of the history). Nobody I personally know is going to have a positive view of nasty people who blow innocent people apart, whatever their grievances, but there certainly other people out there who hang their pictures on the wall and honor them. I just can't make myself call them things like "crazed". I think that only helps us to ignore what really makes these folks tick.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 17:57

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I don't believe you.

You are not obliged to believe me.

I guess I would separate "selfish","amoral", "sociopathic" and some other terms from "insane", but I think psychiatrists dicker about this all the time. I think "insane" generally means not in touch with reality (and maybe hearing voices of people who don't excist, for example), but then you get into the whole reality thing.

I think my main point is that reducing all of theis to "insane" or "crazy" doesn't get us anywhere -- fighting an asymmetric war against ununiformed enemy has generally been a losing proposition short of complete incineration of all involved territories -- doesn't help us figure out what is going on or how to deal with it.

Almost anything I've ever argued is derivative. In this case I think I'd need to volunteer the footnote to Mike "Anonymous" Scheuer's _Imperial Hubris_.

Posted by: JeffS

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 18:11

I think the point here is that there is some amount of value in recognizing that these individuals are responding to something in a consistent way. Not that it is right or OK or even justifiable, but that there is a cause (or causes) for their actions. It’s scary to think that there are beliefs and events that would cause someone to think that blowing up civilians is just and appropriate, but such things exist. Even in Jim’s example above of a Texas invasion in search of Christians, I cannot imagine being driven to the extremes that these people have gone to. There is deep culture, religions, pain, and manipulation behind these attacks- I can’t even comprehend what these must be to cause these actions. But one thing is certain- insane people cannot plan these attacks. They were intelligent (somewhat) and deliberate. Which makes them all the more frightening.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 18:13

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_Imperial Hubris_

Wow, that's the second time I've read that phrase today (here's the first.)

Posted by: Roger

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 18:30

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I hope Brian is OK. Someone keep us posted if possible.

I just heard from Brian. He's at his hotel in Holland. He's fine.

Posted by: tman

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 18:43

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I just heard from Brian. He's at his hotel in Holland. He's fine.

Good stuff

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 18:59

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Wow, that's the second time I've read that phrase today (here's the first.)

Hayden's reference seems a little mixed up. He could lead you to think that Kaplan wrote a book by that name. I *believe* that was Scheuer quoting Kaplan from an essay in the Atlantic. Anyhow, the book I referred to -- by somebody Hayden would probably despise as a right-winger -- is this one.

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 19:01

Yeah I'm very well aware of that. Hayden was quoting "Anonymous" who was quoting Kaplan, and chose to attribute the quote to Kaplan, but cite the book. Confusing, but it *was* Kaplan's quote, after all.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 19:15

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I think the point here is that there is some amount of value in recognizing that these individuals are responding to something in a consistent way. Not that it is right or OK or even justifiable, but that there is a cause (or causes) for their actions.

Well put. I mean even if you want to hate someone or even dehumanize them, not sure it helps to reduce this to "insane".

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It’s scary to think that there are beliefs and events that would cause someone to think that blowing up civilians is just and appropriate, but such things exist. Even in Jim’s example above of a Texas invasion in search of Christians, I cannot imagine being driven to the extremes that these people have gone to.

And in some subcultures, somebody might ask "What, you say you *wouldn't* blow up the children of your enemy to save your own children's lives? What kind of a man are you?"

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There is deep culture, religions, pain, and manipulation behind these attacks- I can’t even comprehend what these must be to cause these actions. But one thing is certain- insane people cannot plan these attacks. They were intelligent (somewhat) and deliberate. Which makes them all the more frightening.

Committed, deliberate, intelligent (enough) -- willing to do things we wouldn't conceive of doing -- and devoted to a person/cause that has, at nearly every turn, told us pretty clearly how they intended to hurt us. Now, what to do with that?

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 19:18

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Confusing, but it *was* Kaplan's quote, after all.

Yeah, I just want to ding Hayden for style points. Plus, I think it's a bit out of Kaplan's context. I'll have to find that essay, but I think Hayden would call Kaplan a facist -- a smarter imperialist

Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 19:42

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I wonder, if the state of Texas was being invaded by hordes looking to imprison the last Christians on planet earth, might we expect JeffS to wrap himself in dynamite and mingle among the invaders?

Actually, knowing Jeff, he would tell them about his faith as they were capturing him. He would then do free concerts in prison and share his faith with the guards. And he'd be thankful for the unique opportunity to do so.

Posted by: jimhogan

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 20:00

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Actually, knowing Jeff, he would tell them about his faith as they were capturing him. He would then do free concerts in prison and share his faith with the guards. And he'd be thankful for the unique opportunity to do so.

I bet, but you make me realize that my example outcome "imprison" was too mild. I guess I should have started with "enslave" and gone from there. No music allowed.

edit: to make this more relevant to what little I think I know about the motives of these bombers, perhaps I should have asked whether Jeff would sacrifice his life and take the innocent lives of invaders' children, not if these invaders appeared poised to *imprison* Jeff and his children, but if their invasion looked like it would poison Jeff's children and deny them entry into the Kingdom of Heaven (or whatever afterlife suits your fancy). I consider it bizarre, but, seriously, if you believe in some Heaven and you believed you and your children could get there....save for the nasty actions of infidels/invaders/whatever...what measures would you be obliged to take?

But I am concerned that, in my jaded gloominess, I am becoming a bit abstract. What, forty-something probably nice people were killed today? And more likely to die in the next few days? OK, so that doesn't gather anywhere near as much press attention when it happens in Baghdad, but that doesn't mean the people of London deserve this.

If anybody has an acquaintance who is a burn nurse, be nice to them. Mow their lawn. Offer to do some errands for them. Let them know how impressed you are with what they do.

Posted by: Daria

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 21:54

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I don't believe you.

You are not obliged to believe me.

I'm a welsher, so that's good.

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I guess I would separate "selfish","amoral", "sociopathic" and some other terms from "insane"

Me too. I don't want to have to call myself insane

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but I think psychiatrists dicker about this all the time. I think "insane" generally means not in touch with reality (and maybe hearing voices of people who don't excist, for example), but then you get into the whole reality thing.

I think my main point is that reducing all of theis to "insane" or "crazy" doesn't get us anywhere -- fighting an asymmetric war against ununiformed enemy has generally been a losing proposition short of complete incineration of all involved territories -- doesn't help us figure out what is going on or how to deal with it.

Well, ok, I think I'm in agreement with this, but if they really are just insane, well, then what?

Posted by: tonyc

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 07/07/2005 23:10

Of course, then there are those that are more concerned with how this tragedy will impact their stock portfolio...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200507070007

Posted by: loren

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 08/07/2005 01:22

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Of course, then there are those that are more concerned with how this tragedy will impact their stock portfolio...

Funny you should mention something like that. When I got up this morning and read what happened on Google News, I went and turned on CNN (why I have no idea, and why I expected more than I got is a good question as well). A few minutes of inane BS chatter between the two talking heads and the guy turns to the camera and says "And coming up next... how will all this effect todays stocks..."

I couldn't f'n believe it. My disdain for news networks will never cease to gain momentum apparently.

Posted by: JeffS

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 08/07/2005 01:55

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perhaps I should have asked whether Jeff would sacrifice his life and take the innocent lives of invaders' children, not if these invaders appeared poised to *imprison* Jeff and his children, but if their invasion looked like it would poison Jeff's children and deny them entry into the Kingdom of Heaven (or whatever afterlife suits your fancy). I consider it bizarre, but, seriously, if you believe in some Heaven and you believed you and your children could get there....save for the nasty actions of infidels/invaders/whatever...what measures would you be obliged to take?

Unfortunatly, the truth is you can't concieve of a situation where I would do this (unless it was something trully twisted like sacrificing myself and some innocents to save the planet from annihilation or something to that effect). I am a fundamentalist* (which is why you're picking on me

), and probably as fundamentalist about my faith as these bomers (or the ones who sent them), but the truth is that my faith is a bit different. Under my beliefe system there is nothing that could be done to warrant that kind of retribution. I do not believe a Christian is to wage Holy war, nor do I believe my children's faith could be poisened against the gospel as you suggest. I believe everyone makes their own personal choice about God and salvation, even if there are those trying to persuade you one way or the other. And THAT is a big difference between the kind of faith I have and those who are bombers. The Muslim faith (or that of these bombers) believes that a Muslim government will bring peace to the world, even if the people under it are not Muslims. This is kind of a topdown approach to faith and government. The Christianity I believe teaches that people make their individual decisions, which then can influence government- a bottom up approach to faith. Christianity has tried the top down approach before (the Crusades), but I do not find that consistent with my faith, nor do most Christians today.

The truth is that in a situation like you suggest, I would likely find myself dead for professing Christanity. Because as John said (and I actually consider it a high complement that he did, even with the note of humor), my approach would be to preach the Gospel to those who would persecute me. I agree I'd probably not be allowed to give any free concerts, though!

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But I am concerned that, in my jaded gloominess, I am becoming a bit abstract. What, forty-something probably nice people were killed today? And more likely to die in the next few days?

Yeah, this is definitely the thing to keep in focus.

*I am defining "fundamentalist" as someone who seeks to rigidly adhere to the basic principles of his or her faith.

Posted by: tfabris

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 08/07/2005 02:29

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Christianity has tried the top down approach before (the Crusades), but I do not find that consistent with my faith, nor do most Christians today.

Well said. And it drives home the point that it's *people* who do good or bad things, not the written text that they claim to follow.

Posted by: drakino

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 08/07/2005 03:57

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Funny you should mention something like that. When I got up this morning and read what happened on Google News, I went and turned on CNN (why I have no idea, and why I expected more than I got is a good question as well). A few minutes of inane BS chatter between the two talking heads and the guy turns to the camera and says "And coming up next... how will all this effect todays stocks..."

I couldn't f'n believe it. My disdain for news networks will never cease to gain momentum apparently.

The events during the 9/11 attacks were one big reason I started paying more attention to the BBC online. And this evening, I'm pulling out my credit card to subscribe to BBC News Broadband. The reason this time? I tuned into Headline News expecting 24 hour news coverage, and instead got the two politicially opposed two person talk show that plagues all the other "news" channels.

It would have been big news if some foreign news anchor made such comments hours after the trade centers fell. But yet, attacks occur in London, and suddenly it's ok for our news media to make stupid comments. And we wonder why the US is seen so badly by the rest of the world beyond our politics.

Posted by: bonzi

Re: Here we go again.. London this time.. - 08/07/2005 04:48

Yeah, I was shocked this morning. I hope everybody here and their loved ones are OK. Apparent stoicism of Londoners is impressive ("Well, we survived much worse...").

Discussion when I return, but, after a quick scan, I am affraid Jim has good points. Of course, We shall never surrender, but things are complicated.

Good luck, everybody, and have a very nice Meet regardless!

Here we go again.. London this time..