So other than myself and Andy, is anyone else seriously looking at getting a new iPhone tomorrow?
After briefly considering jumping ship to Android via the Evo prior to the iPhone 4 launch, I've stuck to my Apple fanyboyism for one more round of contracts.
Should be able to post first impressions later tonight. Apple would only ship it to the address on file with AT&T, so it's waiting at home for me now.
I decided to jump ship for the Droid X and Verizon. I've played with other Android gadgets and decided that now's the time to make the jump. I suspect it's not much of a coincidence that the ship date for the Droid X is only one week after the expiration of my AT&T contract for my iPhone 3G.
First impressions are pretty positive so far. The screen is quite impressive, and text in every app is noticeably sharper. Managed to try out FaceTime with someone, and as advertised it just works. Hard to say how often I will use it though, especially with the current iPhone 4 to iPhone 4 limitation.
It will take a bit to get used to the new design, similar to moving from the initial iPhone to the 3G/3GS. It's similar enough, but just different holding it that the little things like the flat back stand out.
Camera wise, it seems much improved over the 3GS. Much less noise visible in lowlight shots.
As far as the Droid X, I am only now getting up to speed on it, as I missed the announcements earlier today. I'll be curious to hear how it works out for you, especially coming from the iPhone. Overall from the quick impressions out there, it looks to be a decent Android phone, thankfully with physical buttons. Didn't really care much for the touch sensitive ones on the Evo.
What about reports that holding the edges drops the signal to nothing? Are you experiencing this? It seems grabbing the antenna edges detunes it quite a bit at least in some cases. I would have though it pretty obvious that Apple had thoroughly tested the antenna design before producing millions of them but maybe not.
I would have though it pretty obvious that Apple had thoroughly tested the antenna design before producing millions of them but maybe not.
They were totally going to test that, but in the middle of doing so there was this thing with a bar...
But seriously, wasn't that guy someone who worked in the antenna department?
I played with a new iPhone for about 80 seconds tonight. A friend at a show we went to had one, and the screen is definitely very very nice and it's extremely hard to distinguish pixels even up close. The phone was snappy, and the camera was noticeably faster than my wife's 3G.
The only negative I could gleam in such a short hands-on was that I don't like the feel of it in my hand as much as the 3GS. It's not that I missed the curved back, but the sides definitely don't feel as nice.
The Droid X is a pretty cool phone. As much as I'd love that big screen, though, I think I prefer the size of the Incredible/Nexus One a little more. It's sort of the sweet spot for me. Mostly I'm just happy that Android devices are reaching a point where there's decent selection of good hardware. Now we'll just have to wait and see when they catch up to some of the specs that Apple just dropped with the iPhone 4
But seriously, wasn't that guy someone who worked in the antenna department?
The guy was a programmer and if reports are accurate then he worked on the software for the baseband i.e. radio. You'd need to be an EE which specialises in RF if you wanted to do the antenna.
Alledgely the problem is only the signal meter that is displayed and not with actual reception.
Gizmodo sure know how to milk a story for all its worth. Are there enough updates on that story with an iPhone in various positions? As this is Gizmodo, the next update will probably say that its been confirmed that iPhone 4 has 0 bars if you put your genitalia up against it.
I have mine now, just waiting for it to sync all my apps over to it.
I had a quick play before syncing and so far it all just feels/looks amazing. The screen really is something special, the camera is very fast and the whole thing is hugely snappier than my 3G.
A friend at a show we went to had one, and the screen is definitely very very nice and it's extremely hard to distinguish pixels even up close.
Somewhere, deep inside Google's Android group, there must be an argument brewing about how they should support multiple display resolutions. They don't have the luxury that Apple has of only having to worry about one new display at a time.
There already exist a multitude of display resolutions for Android devices. (Including at least 854x480, 800x480, 480x320, 400x240, and 320x240.) I haven't had the opportunity to look into that yet, but one assumes that they've already addressed that problem.
Alledgely the problem is only the signal meter that is displayed and not with actual reception
Yeah except one guy seemed to show data throughput dropping way off when holding.
Engadget is saying it's happening with their unit every single time they hold it left-handed. Don't know how true this is, but I guess we'll see once everyone gets theirs today...
When I say resolution, I'm not just talking about screen size but pixel density. Apple radically increased the density of its pixels for the same-sized screen, and this required some non-trivial changes in the software. I'll bet that Android would require similar surgery.
There's a significant difference in ppi between, for example, The G1 (Dream) and the Nexus One: 180 v. 254. There were some applications that were updated to take advantage of (that is, not look absurd on) the higher res devices. Given, it's not the doubling that happened at the release of the iPhone4 (163 v. 326), but it's not nothing.
Looks like I can replicate the bars dropping here at work, going from 5 bars down to 2 depending on how I hold the phone. And yeah, it's definitely impacting signal. Two speeds tests from the same spot with the phone in the exact same orientation and space, just changed how I was holding it.
Well, I was right about Phones4U being incompetent. After waiting half an hour, my reservation papers were scrutinized, and I was told by the store manager they didn't have any 32GB models for Orange and would I like a 16GB one instead, I declined, much to his and everyone else in the store's surprise. Apparently the store manager knew this fact several days ago but the girl that took my deposit yesterday didn't. Luckily I only wasted 30 minutes, if I'd been waiting hours it would've been a different story, I also got my deposit back.
The most amazing thing is that by way of recompense he said I could have a 32GB 3GS instead! I politely informed him that if I'd wanted one of those I could've just walked in and bought it yesterday.
I had a go with one in the Apple Store in front of the drooling fanboys queued up outside. It is really nice, and while I'd really like to have one before we go to London next week, I'm now happy to wait until I can just walk in off the street and buy one then and there.
It certainly raised a few eyebrows. Since everyone else was seemingly pretty desperate to lay their hands on one at any cost (several people had been turned away from the line at the Apple Store) it was obviously unthinkable that I might turn such an offer down.
Wouldn't that be an expected behavior for *any* phone?
Not to this extreme. The big problem is that the really slow speed came from when I held the phone in portrait mode like I would normally when using it. The fast speed came from moving my hands to touch the top and bottom, similar to how it would be held in landscape mode.
I'm curious if the same thing happens on, say, a 3G with its plastic casing. To rule out (or rule in) antenna-grounding-to-body issues. In other words, narrow down whether it's your body mass blocking the signal, or your skin touching the new metal casing, that's the issue.
I'm curious if the same thing happens on, say, a 3G with its plastic casing. To rule out (or rule in) antenna-grounding-to-body issues. In other words, narrow down whether it's your body mass blocking the signal, or your skin touching the new metal casing, that's the issue.
If the iPhone 4 is in the Apple rubber case then you can grasp it any way you want and it doesn't affect the signal.
When they announced that you'd actually be holding onto part of the antenna, I did wonder how they worked around problems like this. I'm not good at RF or analog design so I just assumed that they'd come up with something.
It's definitely my skin touching the metal case in a certain spot (lower left side) that is causing the issue. I used a single post it note to sit between my skin and the phone, and had full signal strength again.
It's definitely my skin touching the metal case in a certain spot (lower left side) that is causing the issue. I used a single post it note to sit between my skin and the phone, and had full signal strength again.
Thats where the WiFi antenna meets the cellular antenna. What happens if you turn off WiFi and touch that point?
Gripping any phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your Phone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases.
Quick response already, but I suppose expected with how much it's being talked about. It hasn't been a problem when I'm talking on the phone, but it is definitely an issue when I'm holding it in my left hand to use apps.
I'll let the insanity die down around the Apple Stores, and try out a bumper case this round. Been using all the previous iPhones without a case, and holding them the same way without this being an issue.
Because it's not a blunder. As Apple said, it happens to a lot of phones, not just the iPhone.
I've never owned a phone (including the 2007, 2008 and 2009 iPhone) that when holding it in a normal and natural position causes the signal to degrade that severely 2 blocks away from a tower. Being that my primary use of the device is for data services, the degradation is very noticeable. I'll be keeping the device though, since the tradeoff of getting a case is much easier to live with then dealing with the issues of trying to go Android.
I wonder how much testing was actually done with the bare phone out in the field. We all know about the lost phone, and it was in a case designed to make it look like the older models. It's very plausible that none of the field testers ever held the naked phone out in public the same way the masses are now using the device.
The good news though seems to be that the iPhone 4 is holding up much better in the dense environment of New York for actual phone calls. http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/25/the-jimmy-fallon-test-is-the-iphone-4-dropping-less-calls/ Even Brian Lam (of "we must bash Apple due to our own felony class mistakes" Gizmodo) was quoted in the New York Times as saying even with the antenna issue, he is able to use it as a phone in his house, something he had problems with on all previous models and AT&T.
I work in a company that, as part of our day to day work, has to test WWAN devices: Phones, pocketPC's, WWAN cards, laptops with embedded WWAN chips, you name it, we've seen it. And I'll attest that any device's reception can change depending on its orientation, or whether or not you're blocking its antenna with large masses of RF-absorbing material (like a glass of water or a hand or a body or a desk drawer, etc.)
I think that the reported changes in reception are simply due to people looking at it more closely now, when they didn't have a reason to look at fluctuating signal strength before.
It's interesting to note that some people are saying the unit has better reception than prior units in optimum conditions. I wonder if this is just a question of scale.
Orientation and a mass blocking it I can understand and will accept as the price you pay for using something that is wireless.
It is more that you can't touch that very specific spot on the side because you end up detuning or shorting the antenna that is a little off. If this came up in testing then they should have coated the metal band with a non conductive material like a varnish or just designed a plastic band that goes around it. You'd get none of the signal issues and the aesthetics and size of the phone would be minimally impacted.
Originally Posted By: tfabris
It's interesting to note that some people are saying the unit has better reception than prior units in optimum conditions. I wonder if this is just a question of scale.
The antenna in a cell phone is generally tiny so the metal band is probably helping because its significantly larger. IANARE (I am not an RF engineer)
Interesting that the one person who could knowledgeably comment on the antenna issues skips straight to "tap to focus".
Mmm... It is difficult to comment on a hot topic like that without incurring the wrath of superiors and lawyers. Even the disclaimer that their views are their own and not of their company wouldn't really cover it since this is a public forum where anybody can look at it.
If I remember right, Hugo is a manager on the non RF side of the iPhone hardware, so he probably has little he can say personally without speaking for someone else. Hardware wise, the rest of the phone is quite nice. As far as the signal dropping issues, some reports are starting to indicate it may be more a problem with the baseband not properly adjusting, due to some people seeing similar issues on 3GS devices only after the iOS 4 upgrade. Well, so says AppleInsider anyhow.
What amazes me is how well the new screen is working with the OS. It's really making me want this high DPI screen in other devices now, as long as the software is up to the task. DPI scaling in Windows is horrible, to the point I generally avoided the laptops with really high resolution screens. If OS X on the desktop can do this same job, sign me up for a new monitor.
For anyone interested in photo quality from the iPhone 4, here are my pictures from the IGDA Picnic event that I went to today. This is held on part of the land Richard Garriott's owns.
Hey! Are the new iPhones any more water resistant than the old ones?
No. It still has holes in it for the sockets etc. No gaskets on the panels either from the teardowns. If the old iPhones are anything to go by then Apple will have put multiple moisture detection pads in it to tell if you've dunked it.
Originally Posted By: gbeer
My niece has drowned three of them, and has given up owning one, even thought she really really wants another.
Maybe she should just stop dunking them in stuff :P There aren't that many waterproof phones out there and the ones that are tend to be the more basic models. They're also generally quite chunky from all the waterproofing.
Originally Posted By: gbeer
There must be some kind of water proofing that can be applied to the internal boards.
You'd have to waterproof the PCBs. The mic. The speaker. The docking port. The headphone socket. The LCD. The touchscreen. The battery etc... Its not just a case of covering the PCB in a conformal coating and calling it waterproof.
I'll be curious to see what Apple's formal response is now that Jobs is trying to resort to Jedi mind tricks. I was having definite reception issues with it at the picnic if I held it normally. I even handed it to a few other people just curious to see the phone, and they all killed the signal to the point where it dropped off the network every time, and they weren't even aware of the issue or where to hold it.
iTape? I thought thats what those Apple stickers in the box were for. Apple just anticipated this years ago so they've been quietly supplying everybody with them. Time Machine mk 2
iTape? I thought thats what those Apple stickers in the box were for. Apple just anticipated this years ago so they've been quietly supplying everybody with them. Time Machine mk 2
As the man said, it's not a bug, it's a feature! The iPhone 4 is actually two devices in one. Sitting on the table, its an iPhone. Pick it up and it seamlessly becomes a Touch. Now, that's innovative engineering!
If this came up in testing then they should have ... just designed a plastic band that goes around it.
Like this one? It was announced in the keynote with the phone. I suspect covering up the antenna was the primary goal of this product design. Steep price, but it does include its own metal buttons.
Like this one? It was announced in the keynote with the phone. I suspect covering up the antenna was the primary goal of this product design. Steep price, but it does include its own metal buttons.
I mean one that is integrated with the phone and not removable. I know that they did the unusual step of releasing the rubber bumper for the iPhone 4 since they've never had anything like that for older iPhones.
They've never even sold their own case before, have they? The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if they did know about this issue, thought it was an issue, and created this case to address it.
I read one story claiming that reception issues like this exist for the Nexus One. I'd never heard of it, and I've certainly never experienced it. Does anyone know what it is? If there's a way to hold my phone that will demonstrably decrease the signal to the same extent it does on the iPhone 4, I will not give them any crap for this. In my experience, though, I've never had a phone do this to this extent, and to say there's "no issue" is absurd.
There are two issues at play with the iPhone 4 from what I've been able to gather.
There's the normal attenuation issue which can affect signal quality and then there's a software issue which is responsible for all the press we've been seeing. In other words, touching the antenna in a certain way "shouldn't" cause a complete failure of communication.
I think that's why we've seen the two distinctly different messages from Steve Jobs on the issue. The latest of which says there's no "reception issue" and to "stay tuned."
Seems Nokia tried to poke Apple about the issue publicly, only to have it backfire with people digging up manuals from Nokia phones advising users not to touch the bottom, and demos of some Nokia phones experiencing the same issue.
So it's definitely not an issue with just the iPhone 4, as the above story shows videos from several phones, including the Nexus One. And as Tony and others have explained, yes, part of this is normal, though hopefully future phone designs will better account for their customers holding them.
For me, I generally don't cup the phone, I hold it with the left edge against my palm, and my finger tips holding the right edge. So for the previous iPhones, this never blocked any major portion of the antenna, but with the iPhone 4, it's connecting the two antennas together to cause my phone to drop signal strength quite a bit. I can't get exact DB numbers since it seems the field test app is no longer accessible on iOS 4. And so far, the Apple store reports being out of stock on the bumpers every time I check. I will continue to "hold differently" for now, to see what Apple's formal fix is.
*edit*, found this good video demonstrating it's not an issue with covering the antenna, it is indeed just "The Spot". http://vimeo.com/12864890
Weird, but I can't tell at all what your opinion on this is, Tom. Am I right in summarizing that you think all phones have this problem, yet the iPhone 4 has it particularly badly and in one single spot that significantly affects it?
I just think it's a bad design.
And I watched that video in the article you linked about the Nexus One reception problems. I attempted to replicate the experiment, but I don't think I have anything on my phone to get the proper information. Do any Android owners know what app would show me current signal strength?
As is, I could only test with the Speedtest.net app. With my phone covered up as completely as possible with my hands (more so than the guy in the video), I simply couldn't get it to alter the speed test results. It appeared that I would occasionally lose one bar, but then it would come back while still covered.
Of course, I'm probably not in a good place to test this. I'll try it when I'm out and about tomorrow, and not when I'm in my house, where I can see a tower from my front door...
Weird, but I can't tell at all what your opinion on this is, Tom. Am I right in summarizing that you think all phones have this problem, yet the iPhone 4 has it particularly badly and in one single spot that significantly affects it?
I just think it's a bad design.
"this problem" is two different issues as others have been pointing out, so my opinion differs depending on what it is.
Any phone is going to have at least some minor signal loss if the antennas are covered up. That part I understand, and am fine with. Simple concept really, cover up the antenna, and it has worse reception. Some loss is to be expected, and most phones when held reasonably do just fine.
Some phones appear to have a design flaw that places the antennas in a spot that when held in a common, but not covering way results in a significant loss of signal. This includes the iPhone 4, and potentially the Nokia E71 based on the performance shown in one of those videos. My opinion on this is lines up more with you in that I find it's a bad design. Now, if the phone has multiple antennas, this may just be a firmware issue of the baseband software not switching properly when the signal degrades. I'm still highly skeptical that firmware is going to fix the iPhone 4 though.
Overall, even if it is a major flaw, it can be worked around with a case or other method. Being that no mobile phone is perfect, I'll take this flaw over other tradeoffs I'd have to deal with on another device. I'm already hooked on the screen, like the camera, and overall enjoy the other features of the iPhone 4. I have trust in the Apple support system that they aren't going to just completely ignore the issue, though it may take a little bit of time to address. At this point the phone isn't even a week old. If the worse case situation has to happen, there is still plenty of time to return it.
Oh, I should add, this design flaw could be pretty serious considering it wasn't something my friend though about when he was trying to dial 911 last night. I had a very drunk or otherwise impaired driver nearly run us off the road. After I honked, he swerved back left, across 4 lanes of highway traffic, and was still a big hazard to other drivers. Took a good 30 seconds for my friend to realize the reason the emergency operator couldn't hear him was because he was touching the spot.
Overall, even if it is a major flaw, it can be worked around with a case or other method. Being that no mobile phone is perfect, I'll take this flaw over other tradeoffs I'd have to deal with on another device. I'm already hooked on the screen, like the camera, and overall enjoy the other features of the iPhone 4. I have trust in the Apple support system that they aren't going to just completely ignore the issue, though it may take a little bit of time to address. At this point the phone isn't even a week old. If the worse case situation has to happen, there is still plenty of time to return it.
Fair enough, and I'll agree with that reasonable response. I do have to wonder, though, why Apple chose this go-around to release a case, and hope that one of their solutions is to discount or give away a case to people with problems. There's no way on earth that those "bumper" cases cost anywhere near $30 to make. I'd imagine that if they sold them for $15 they'd still make a significant profit.
I won't say that's the way to do it, but it seems to me that the iPhone problem is more of a problem than it is with other phones, and they need to address their users with something better than "don't hold it that way" or "all phones do this to some extent."
I guess you didn't see the rumors (or Steve Jobs' indication) about the firmware update coming down the pipe...
I find it very difficult to believe they would not have found the attenuation issues during product testing. This thing was in the field for months. I think that's another flag pointing to a firmware issue.
- the phone has a choice of frequencies it can talk to the cell tower on - when you touch the i-spot it effects some frequencies worse than others - the phone should notice the drop in signal and switch frequency
Supposedly something in the timing of the frequency hopping is off and can supposedly be fixed. I have no idea whether any of this is true or not.
Interestingly one of the touted improvements by some bloggers before this problem was spotted was that the phone would be better at hopping to uncongested frequencies...
Given that I can't always reproduce the issue (even in a location I could earlier repro it in), it would seem that something like this software fix might be possible.
There's no way on earth that those "bumper" cases cost anywhere near $30 to make. I'd imagine that if they sold them for $15 they'd still make a significant profit.
This is Apple. Everything has a healthy profit margin on it. Still not sure as to how dirt cheap these would be to make though. If you care about precision and good quality materials then the price shoots up and as we all know, Apple do really pay attention to these details.
Its like McDonalds making their Happy Meal toys so they're held together by screws. You'd think making it snap together would be cheaper than employing somebody to screw everything together but it turns out that making a plastic part with the necessary precision is more complicated and expensive.
it turns out that making a plastic part with the necessary precision is more complicated and expensive.
May very well be. But in my manufacturing discussions, it's always been a bit more expensive for designs that used screws. Some designs use both of course.
The bumper cases from Apple do also have metal buttons in them, to fit over where the normal volume buttons are. That probably also adds to the cost of manufacturing a bit.
The bumper cases from Apple do also have metal buttons in them, to fit over where the normal volume buttons are. That probably also adds to the cost of manufacturing a bit.
Especially as Steve makes each button on a lathe in his garden shed
Anyone getting duplicate emails on their iPhone 4? Every email I get has one that appears normally with the subject and a preview of the message and then underneath I get the same message but without the preview. Both are identical once opened. It's not a problem with the email server because I only get one copy of the message on other devices.
Anyone getting duplicate emails on their iPhone 4? Every email I get has one that appears normally with the subject and a preview of the message and then underneath I get the same message but without the preview. Both are identical once opened. It's not a problem with the email server because I only get one copy of the message on other devices.
What kind of e-mail server is it? POP, IMAP, Exchange (with or without push), etc... I haven't seen the duplicate e-mail issue you describe exactly. I have seen with my IMAP account a situation where it shows a new message with only the subject, then it disappears, and reappears shortly with the full content. It seems I catch it right at a time when it was checking messages and was in the middle of updating things in the background.
Totally tangentially, what is the IMAP server that you're seeing that behavior on, Tom? Does it happen to be an Exchange server with a Blackberry server running against it?
El Reg points out that this is the phone whose Wifi didn't work in its own keynote, and that while the official explanation about the Wifi smog in the room is certainly plausible, it's hard not to wonder whether Steve was holding it right...
Went to the local Apple Store last night and talked to a genius about the situation. Very friendly guy, and he logged a case for me, and pretty much said that at this point they have nothing they can do as they are waiting on word from engineering. Conveniently, I was there right when a worker was restocking the shelves with more bumpers, so for now I bought one.
Not really happy with the bumper though, as it's back to the iPhone 1 problem of very few 1/8th inch headphone plugs will seat fully. And of course, Apple again forgot to make even their own case work with docks much like on the iPad. I'll be returning it if some future firmware somehow resolves the issue of touching the bottom left.
I think Apple's formal PR response is just going to make the situation worse, by basically saying "Oh, it's just an issue of how the bars display, we are going to change them instead of addressing the actual problem of people dropping calls or having way slower data service because they held the phone normally."
I'd been hoping that there was going to be a real fix to this. As such I had been avoiding testing the issue too much.
I've just done some proper testing of it, comparing my 4 vs my 3G. I did it in a reasonable 3G signal, both phones (when sat by themselves without me holding them) holding 5 bars for long periods, occasionally dropping to 4 bars.
Either Apple's press release is complete bollocks or my iPhone 4 is faulty.
With both phones sat without being touched the download speed, using a couple of different test tools, varies between 1,500k to 2,800k. It does vary quite a bit, which you would think would make testing difficult.
And it would, if there wasn't such a dramatic drop in performance when the problem is triggered. When I just lightly touch the iSpot (can't believe that isn't want Gizmodo et al are calling it) the download performance drops to 50k-200k.
I get no such drops when I touch, hold or cup my 3G. Any drop that you get is well within the general variability of what you get when not handling either phone.
I really don't give a toss what the signal bars indicate, it is the data throughput that matters and with my iSpot covered it is a ~10th of what it should be on my iPhone 4. For those that are curious when the spot is covered the bars quickly drop to minimum and it typically drops from 3G to GPRS.
And as to "hold it differently" ! I am a right handed person, but despite what the various reports seem to suggest, that doesn't mean I hold my phone in my right hand. When I make calls I hold it in the left hand, when I am using the screen with two hands I hold it in my left and tap with my right. Only when I am using it one handed and using the screen do I hold it right handed.
When held right handed I can avoid touching the iSpot (though it is more natural for me to hold it touching the spot). When I am holding it left handed I can see no way, that I personally, can sensibly avoid touching the iSpot. I want to nestle the left hand corner down in the crease of my palm because it is the most comfortable and secure way that it fits in my hand. Even if I don't tuck the phone into the crease of my palm, I find it very hard to hold the phone securely without touching the spot.
I find it bizarre that this issue was missed and also that Apple don't seem to think that it is something worth fixing. Unless my phone is somehow atypical and that they don't all behave the same way ?
So I guess I am destined for a Genius bar appointment, where I require the outcome to either* be that they demonstrate that my phone is faulty and replace it or give me a free Bumper.
Assuming my phone is not atypical (which at this point seems unlikely), this is such a shame because other than this (very key) issue my iPhone 4 is just a stunning bit of kit.
I'm not angry about this, just very puzzled, again assuming that my phone is "normal".
* there is I guess a third option of me rejecting the phone as not fit for purpose, but I really don't want to consider that option at the moment
The latest conspiracy theory is that Apple intentionally altered the signal strength to bar formula so they'd appear to have a better signal than other phones.
I also heard that Elvis was the programmer responsible for this but he was assisted by a team of Roswell aliens...
Originally Posted By: andy
give me a free Bumper
According to the apparently leaked AppleCare documents, you're not going to be able to get a free bumper case out of them. Also unless you have issues with the iPhone reception when its not actually being held by yourself then it doesn't count as faulty. If you're not happy with this then take it back for a refund...
I really don't give a toss what the signal bars indicate, it is the data throughput that matters and with my iSpot covered it is a ~10th of what it should be on my iPhone 4.
I wonder... Is there a chance that they deliberately throttle the data bandwidth based on the number of bars? In other words, could the reported drop in data throughput still possibly be due to a software bug in the bars calculation?
Or maybe the stuff they're saying about the bars calculations is actually an oversimplification of the more complicated issue of baseband frequency switching that some have suspected might be causing the problem.
I see a 10 fold drop in performance, not the relatively small drop that they see. So maybe my phone is defective in some way.
I'm still at a loss of what to do as well. I was just using the phone at my desk with the bumper case, and still had it drop from 5 bars to 3. Running a speed test again shows that the case is helping a bit, but not a ton. My download speed was cut in half, and upload down to 1/4th the normal speed. Considering how close the tower is to my office, this is going to be much worse elsewhere.
Is there a chance that they deliberately throttle the data bandwidth based on the number of bars? In other words, could the reported drop in data throughput still possibly be due to a software bug in the bars calculation?
Or maybe the stuff they're saying about the bars calculations is actually an oversimplification of the more complicated issue of baseband frequency switching that some have suspected might be causing the problem.
I still think that is a possibility, though seeming much less likely now. It seems that once you trigger the issue it takes it 30 seconds or more to recover:
- start a speed test, get 2000k - touch the iSpot - speed drops quite rapidly to 50k - release the "death grip" - speed stays pegged at 50k - cancel speed test, run again - speed still under 150k - wait 20 seconds for bars to return a bit - run speed test, back to 2000k
Another thing that I don't understand is that just occasionally bridging the gap will have zero effect on the download speed. I just just running some more tests and several times I touched the spot but the download still kept screaming along at 2000k+
Another thing that I don't understand is that just occasionally bridging the gap will have zero effect on the download speed. I just just running some more tests and several times I touched the spot but the download still kept screaming along at 2000k+
This would tend to indicate that it is indeed some kind of a software issue, where the system is only throttling the bandwidth (or switching frequencies) after a short hysteresis timeout, based on some perceived indicator of reception issues, rather than actual loss of signal.
I'm really curious to see if the software update takes care of it.
I tried a bit of electrical insulating tape, which didn't appear to help. A tea towel however was enough to solve the issue. Also a thick rubber band worked.
However I have also seen people report that the Bumper didn't work to solve the issue for them.
This is true of iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, as well as many Droid, Nokia and RIM phones.
That just bugs me. Droid phones? I guess if you have an Android device on another network you don't have this issue.
And here's how I read that statement, if we look at the grammar:
"[the]* iPhone 4 and 3GS have this issue"
"many Droid phones have this issue"
Using this logic, Apple's two latest generations, essentially all the phones they're developing for, have antenna issues, but you can buy a Droid phone that doesn't.
I'm just saying, perhaps Apple's PR isn't as great at attention to detail as other teams in the company (except for the antenna team - ooo burn!).
* I out and out REFUSE to refer to it as "iPhone," as in "iPhone 4 has great reception." It's "THE iPhone 4 has great reception." It's not a f**king person, damnit! Steve sounds like a totaly d-bag every time he says that.
I'm just saying, perhaps Apple's PR isn't as great at attention to detail as other teams in the company
I got a chuckle out of "Since this mistake has been present since the original iPhone, this software update will also be available for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G."
The infamous barPhone was reported to have been disguised with a wrapper. I could see Apple not recognizing the scope of the problem it that was commonly, how the prototypes were handled.
Well I took my iPhone 4 to the Genius Bar at the Apple Store today.
You can go and read all the gory details if you want, but in summary: my iPhone appears to be typical, a Bumper solves the issue, no free Bumper offered, customer left angry and frustrated.
I'm sure everyone is through bored with me going on about this, so I shall try and shut up about it and wait to see what the software update brings. And no doubt next time I'm in an Apple store I'll probably cave in and buy a Bumper
Being in the UK I have the might of our much derided, expensive consumer laws behind (by people in countries with little consumer protection in the country). I don't expect to have too much trouble returning it if I choose to if the update doesn't resolve it.
I did check with the store manager if he thought I'd have any hassle. He said 'come in and ask for me', and gave me his business card. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.
I'm still debating what to do myself. My 3GS doesn't have much resale value currently due to some glass damage, so for me it's not too much of a concern if I go back. I would however miss the iPhone 4 features, as it's really grown on me already. I have a trip coming up, and I think I'll make a final decision on returning or keeping it after that.
I am going to return the bumper case though. I can't plug the iPhone 4 into my temporary speakers in the car with the bumper on, nor can I plug it in via the dock connector. Plus it's nearly caused me to drop the phone already, due to the rubber gripping the inside of my pants pocket as I'm removing it.
Speaking of iPhone 3G (not 3GS): Has anybody else noticed that things have gotten decidedly slower with iOS 4? Yesterday, I tried using the camera, and it took something like 30 seconds to actually be ready to take a picture, by which time the thing I wanted to shoot was long gone.
I'm sure it's much better with a 3GS or 4, but it's still sad that Apple hasn't managed to keep up the performance on their older models. I'm hoping that the Android people do better with this sort of thing as their platform evolves. Certainly, they seem to have made real strides in performance from Android 2.1 to 2.2.
My 3G definitely has some sluggishness on iOS 4.0 in some areas, some of the time. Some things seemed to be a bit quicker too.
Some people have reported that it is faster after a clean setup rather than a restore. Not that that is very useful, if you actually have data and settings that you want to keep
I've just mailed mine off to a recycling company, which I guess means I'm keeping my iPhone 4 for now.
For those in the UK, quidco.com are offering £100 cashback on the 12 month £15 iPhone simplicity tariff. If you are a low minutes user like me then that is quite the bargain, £80 for the year overall!
It will mean the iPhone4 will cost me £580 for a year, not too bad I don't think, especially with the added bonus of keeping my number and being SIM free at the end.
My 3G definitely has some sluggishness on iOS 4.0 in some areas, some of the time. Some things seemed to be a bit quicker too.
Some people have reported that it is faster after a clean setup rather than a restore. Not that that is very useful, if you actually have data and settings that you want to keep
I've noticed increased sluggishness with my 3G phone with each successive update. The update to iOS4 made things only incrementally worse than the prior update, but I do get the feeling that they are a hair worse rather than better. Note that I did a full clean wipe of the phone instead of a restore (details of that fiasco I think are higher up in this very thread).
Some things I've noticed about my 3G phone that has helped me speed it up occasionally:
- If the phone completely locks up to the point where it seems to be unusable, sometimes pulling out the SIM card, blowing on it Nintendo-style, and re-inserting it, helps. I think there's a processor thread that's constantly checking the SIM card, and if there's intermittent connectivity to the SIM, you'll get that thread locking up and causing other dependent threads to lock. This, by the way, is coincident with a related symptom: Sometimes my phone would just say "No Sim".
- There's a free app called "Scan" that will free up RAM on the phone. Running that occasionally helps. For instance if I run the app before I run the TomTom navigation app, then the user input prompts on TomTom are more responsive (though still too slow for my tastes).
There was a wire in the rod. The antenna was two parts: a coil at the base was the antenna when the rod was pushed in, and when the antenna was extended the coil coupled to the rod, so the rod was the radiating element.
"A Greater Manchester University" is possibly an even cheekier slogan than the one on the ads at Cambridge railway station that say "Welcome to Cambridge, home of Anglia Ruskin University".
If Nige (my old digital electronics lecturer) says so, then I believe him!
Don't believe him. I worked there in the 90's, and when the antenna was down a lot of work had to be done to ensure the antenna didn't radiate into the phone due to non-infinite isolation between the coil and whip.
Yes, "Greater Manchester" is the formal name of the county containing Salford. It's a play on words. I'm just saying it's a bit of a cheeky one, considering their long-standing competition and rivalry with "Manchester University", which is a separate institution.
Any phone is going to have at least some minor signal loss if the antennas are covered up. That part I understand, and am fine with. Simple concept really, cover up the antenna, and it has worse reception. Some loss is to be expected, and most phones when held reasonably do just fine.
Some phones appear to have a design flaw that places the antennas in a spot that when held in a common, but not covering way results in a significant loss of signal. This includes the iPhone 4, and potentially the Nokia E71 based on the performance shown in one of those videos. My opinion on this is lines up more with you in that I find it's a bad design.
The thing is, candybar phones have the antennas as far away from the head as possible to reduce the SAR values; that means the antennas are up against the hand (which has a higher SAR limit than your head as I remember). One of the PhDs who commented on the issue noted this.
Multiple antenna phones tend to only receive on multiple antennas, so more antennas do not necessarily help with these issues for uplink degradation.
El Reg points out that this is the phone whose Wifi didn't work in its own keynote, and that while the official explanation about the Wifi smog in the room is certainly plausible, it's hard not to wonder whether Steve was holding it right...
Pretty sure some site (anandtech?) noted wifi reception improved when you held the phone...
But yes, it was WiFi smog. I heard the full detail and the number of base stations in the room was accurate (they could even identify how many were MiFi's by the MAC address prefixes). The "solution" (apart from shaming people into turning points off) was kinda sweet too, involving taking all the room's official APs offline and reconfiguring them at opposite ends of the wifi spectrum, then bringing up the demo AP in the middle immediately before use, and before any clients had a chance to associate with the offical AP network.
I recall that at the time, some people commented that Google had the same issue with their demos at the Google IO conference earlier that year. Really, MiFi's and similar need to look at the surrounding wifi environment and dynamically reduce their TX power if it's keynote-busy. WiFi was just never designed to work like that.
As to why the 3GS worked better then the 4, my guess is the 3GS was on 11g and maybe that deals with insane amounts of interference better than 11n? Just a guess though, WiFi has never behaved as well as the label says it should
Anyone know if AT&T keeps published information on what frequencies they use in different parts of the country? In Portland, Seattle and Redmond, I can't replicate the massive speed drop by holding the phone in my left hand like I could down in Austin. As far as bars, I only managed to drop it from 5 to 4 once in Portland, nowhere near the 5-1 I could do 2 blocks from a tower in Austin.
Also not seeing any fast HSUPA uplink speeds in these areas compared to Austin, I wonder if somehow that has anything to do with it. I'm just more confused now.
Consumer Reports' test involved a signal generator in a Faraday cage, and they claim that they tested a lot of different frequencies. I don't have a subscription, so the full article, assuming that there is one with more detail than the publicly accessible article and video, might contain information about frequencies. If anyone here has a CR subscription, maybe you could check?
Basically here at home if I have it in my hand I loose 3G. Can't say I get anything but a good 3G signal here, I can basically see the mast on top of a tower block close by.
It's funny as Nicola got one the other week and hers doesn't seem to be suffering too much. I suppose I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what is actually being done about it.
Can't say I get anything but a good 3G signal here, I can basically see the mast on top of a tower block close by.
How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.
If they say anything that isn't in keeping with the rest of their public messages I'll be amazed. I have no doubt they'll deny everything or try to spin it somehow.
By the way, if I hear one more time the phrase "the iPhone 4 actually has better reception than previous iPhones" I'm going to scream. Yes, it does, but THAT ISN'T THE F'ING POINT! Both things can be true: it gets great reception, AND it has reception problems when held in a certain place. I've heard this statement a dozen times and it's driving me nuts.
If they say anything that isn't in keeping with the rest of their public messages I'll be amazed. I have no doubt they'll deny everything or try to spin it somehow.
I highly doubt they would be organizing a full press event with invites for various organizations to come to their campus to just say "Nothing is wrong". Apple has to get out in front of this issue fast with all the coverage (including Letterman making a top 10 joke of it). This is the first time I can think of that Apple is holding an event like this outside of announcing a new product or software update. It will be a damage control event for sure, but with actual action in some meaningful way. At a minimum, I'm expecting free bumper cases.
Why do I say this? Close to 10 years of being an Apple customer has taught me that even when they do slip up, they act to fix the problems even if they initially deny them. I don't see that changing now.
I will say though if their solution is free bumper cases, I'll probably take the phone back. As much as I like the device overall, I keep going back to the 911 call where the operator couldn't hear my friend making the call. I simply cannot support the product with my money with such a serious design flaw, and the bumper for me just swaps that issue for others. Much like I refused to pay for the defective Vista OS, or will refuse to buy another 360 if my current one fails, I'll refuse to keep this generation of iPhone until the flaw is fixed. At least that means I'll only have to wait another year for a new phone, instead of 3 for a new OS, or 5 for a new design of a console
When I first started hearing of the reception issues I just thought to myself it's just hype from all the Apple haters out there, but it is going to be a serious problem for me I think. I've made a couple of calls from my office today, all of which had breaks up but no drop outs. I can't remember ever having connection issues from this seat with the 3G in the past.
On the positive side what an amazing device, it feels so good in my hand. If you told me it was made of solid glass and runs on magic I think I'd believe you
How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.
Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.
When I first started hearing of the reception issues I just thought to myself it's just hype from all the Apple haters out there, but it is going to be a serious problem for me I think. I've made a couple of calls from my office today, all of which had breaks up but no drop outs. I can't remember ever having connection issues from this seat with the 3G in the past.
You mean when touching the spot or when not touching the spot ?
If not touching the spot then you almost certainly have an issue not connected with the touch-the-spot reception issue. There are quite a few people on the O2 forum with general reception issues that seem to get resolved by a replacement SIM or phone (usually the SIM it appears).
Everything I've seen confirms to me that the iPhone 4 has much better reception than the 3G normally when not touching the spot, particularly in dodgy signal areas.
Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.
Not for you since you have first hand experience of where the tower is but Ofcoms tower site finder tool may be useful. The interface is clunky and annoying to use but you can find out where the towers are near you, who runs them, what frequency and power.
The changes in 4.0.1 are only listed as "Improves the formula to determine how many bars of signal strength to display". What is interesting is that the baseband firmware hasn't changed at all. The only difference is the application side.
The iPad got a small upgrade from 3.2 to 3.2.1 today as well but nothing is listed regarding the 3G radio. No changes for the original iPhone.
It really is about time Apple started using a delta patch system of some sort, rather than the whole image approach. It would appear that 4.0.1 is a crazy 579MB download !
It really is about time Apple started using a delta patch system of some sort, rather than the whole image approach. It would appear that 4.0.1 is a crazy 579MB download !
They did have patches right at the start. You could go from 1.0.0 to 1.0.1 to 1.0.2 via patches or via the full restore images.
The delta patches also failed pretty badly at times, especially when applied to a jailbroken phone. With how popular the iPhone is, it's probably cheaper for Apple to pay slightly higher bandwidth costs vs the support costs of the delta method. On the downside, it means people stuck with satellite Internet usually can't get the patches due to daily caps of 500mb on some of the higher end plans.
How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.
Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.
Cheers
Cris.
That doesn't mean anything. The vertical beamwidth of those panel aerials is very tight. Sometimes only 5-10 degrees. If that tower is more than a few stories high you're looking at quite a distance before you're in the aerials 'sweet spot'. With aerial gain it's quite possible you're associated to another tower that's further away, possibly not even line of site, but due to the gain of the aerial (up to 13 dB on some types) you get a stronger signal and that's the one phone choses to associate to.
You can observe this effect (albeit slightly exaggerated) in Piccadilly Gardens. The Sunley building has all the major providers up there, but because they're on the top and the building is 30 stories high, the surrounding area is a blackspot for cellphone coverage because the aerials are actually firing off into the distance and the signals from other base stations further away are weaker and also affected by multipath problems due to building clutter in the locality.
You mean when touching the spot or when not touching the spot ?
I am quite surprised that all I need to do is touch the bottom left hand side of the phone and the signal dies off quickly. I certainly didn't see this on Nicola's iPhone 4. I don't even need to grip it in my hand tightly, just have it on the desk with a good signal, touch the bottom left and a few seconds later I am down at 2 bars on the GSM network.
I wouldn't be a problem to be honest, but the call quality is much lower then on the 3G, callers have a hard tie hearing me and me them. I'm going to have a go at a couple of the suggestions with the SIM card to see if that helps at all.
So there is a problem with the iPhone 4, how ever the solution is to issue free bits of plastic to every user rather than redesign something that works properly.
If it needs a strip of plastic to work, why doesn't it come with that strip glued in place. One thing I love about this phone is the cool way it looks and feels in the hand, I have never used any form of case on my iPhone and I had hoped I wouldn't have to start now.
Oh well, it's a good job I love this phone so much. My guess to the very low 1.7% return rate is that everyone else working on it at Apple has done such a good job, that despite a pretty big flaw people are willing to live with it if they get to keep their phones.
So there is a problem with the iPhone 4, how ever the solution is to issue free bits of plastic to every user rather than redesign something that works properly.
If it needs a strip of plastic to work, why doesn't it come with that strip glued in place. One thing I love about this phone is the cool way it looks and feels in the hand, I have never used any form of case on my iPhone and I had hoped I wouldn't have to start now.
Keep the old internal antennas. Change the metal band to a solid cosmetic one instead. Problem solved. iPhone 4.5!
Originally Posted By: Cris
Oh well, it's a good job I love this phone so much. My guess to the very low 1.7% return rate is that everyone else working on it at Apple has done such a good job, that despite a pretty big flaw people are willing to live with it if they get to keep their phones.
The low return rate is also because Apple gave indications that it would be fixed by a software update which only just came out. Its whether the return rate goes up now that the fairly useless conference is over that is the important thing.
Well, mine is going back once I return from vacation and I'll put my 3GS back into service. While it's probably true that the iPhone 4 is dropping less calls, they didn't address the issue of reduced quality or speed, to the point where the other person on the call can't hear the iPhone 4 user. Technically not a dropped call, so their stats don't count it as a problem. If it only impacted data, I wouldn't mind too much. But again my thoughts drift back to the 911 call, and I don't want to be in a position where my natural way of holding the device costs valuable time when something very serious is happening.
They did talk about return rates being lower then the 3GS, but at this point every iPhone 4 owner is still in their valid return period, so it could go up. I'll be curious to see if they talk about these numbers more down the road.
The solution for now will be free bumpers, or some other cases. I'm sure some of the 3rd party case makers will enjoy that boost. I just don't have a ton of time to wait and see how the others will work though, as I fall out of the 30 day return period at the end of next week. I already know I don't want a bumper due to the other issues it introduces for me in my use of the device.
Some interesting things out of the Q&A:
Quote:
Q: After September 30th, is it because after then you expect people to buy a free case? Steve: It’s so we can reevaluate this in September, I have no idea what solutions may come up.
If they have been working rapidly on an actual fix to the iSpot on the antenna band, September seems reasonable for a revision B of the hardware that may fix the issue. I'm betting they will talk more about it at the annual iPod release event around that time. Until they have an actual fix they can show, odds are they will remain silent and point to the free cases as an interm solution.
Quote:
Q from me: how does touching the corner with a single finger seem to cause this issue? It’s not just a grip, it can just happen by touching a single finger. A from Bob: Your body is a pretty effective signal absorber. When you make contact with that phone, its performance in contact with you is less than its freespace performance. It’s a way to attenuate the signal by some amount.
Between this Q&A answer, and the earlier part of the event showing death grip impact (covering a ton of the phone) on other devices, it's clear they were still being a bit dodgy on the iSpot. I understand covering the device is a problem and that has never been the issue for me. It's been that one tiny spot placed in a area where I almost always touch the phone when using it.
The Q&A had some other tidbits, readable over here. It's good to see them be somewhat frank about certain things, and overall I'm pretty impressed with the response so far. While I'm returning my phone, it hasn't diminished my high praise of the company much. Apple still stands as one of the few public companies out there that does put the consumer first, and not wall street, enterprise, or others.
I found the whole thing deeply unsatisfying for two reasons.
All their comparisons with dropped bars were against other brands of smartphones. I don't give a toss how well the phone works when I hold it compared to some other crappy phone. I care that it doesn't work as well as my 3G did in the same situation.
Secondly, stop focusing on bars already. We all know that the bars are completely unreliable at indicating actual performance. I don't care how many bars my phone is showing, I care that I am getting a reliable fast data download. It is the 90% drop in data speed that I see that troubles me not the lack of bars ffs.
It is just lucky that I don't make many calls and use it on wifi 90% of the time, otherwise it might have been going back in exchange for a 3GS.
I am pleased that they updated the bars in 4.0.1, at least I get some vaguely useful indication when it would be a good time to avoid the spot.
While it's probably true that the iPhone 4 is dropping less calls, they didn't address the issue of reduced quality or speed, to the point where the other person on the call can't hear the iPhone 4 user. Technically not a dropped call, so their stats don't count it as a problem.
Isn't this the exact thing I was talking about in my previous post? (BTW, I'm not directing this at you, just at Apple)
I said I hate when people dismiss this problem with "the iPhone 4 actually gets better reception than previous iPhones." That's what they said here about dropped calls.
I don't know of anyone in the media who has claimed the iPhone 4 doesn't get better reception than the 3GS. This isn't the point! The point is there's this one little problem, and they have to address THAT, not give us spin (did I not say there would be spin?) about how great the reception is.
Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.
*edit* But you were right, Tom. They did somewhat address this as an actual problem. The free bumpers are clearly the cheapest solution if they did admit there was a problem.
However, it did seem like the entire press conference boils down to "our phone is awesome and way better than our last phone...here's a free bumper for that thing you think is wrong."
What happens if you short between the two sides of the spot? Does it attenuate then?
I'm thinking that it's not meatbag attenuation, but detuning of the antenna because it suddenly becomes much longer when your skin provides a conductance point between the two elements.
If you could run a long piece of wire between the two sides, such that there was almost nothing that could possibly interfere with the signal strength at the antenna, and it still causes a problem, then that would reliably disprove the meatbag theory. Maybe try with a capacitor, too.
Maybe the reason that some people are having problems when others aren't is that some people's hands are sweatier than others.
What is the deal with putting the antenna on the bottom of the phone?!? I complained bitterly about that when I was still putting up with my Crapberry. I had no idea it was so common.
What is the deal with putting the antenna on the bottom of the phone?!? I complained bitterly about that when I was still putting up with my Crapberry. I had no idea it was so common.
Supposedly it allows them to run the radio at higher power. The FCC tests for maximum radiator are measured with the phone held against the head, where the measurement takes place where the users brain would be. So putting the antenna on the lower rear maximises the power they can use and stay under the limit.
Whether that is actually true or not I don't know, but it seems to make sense.
Has someone tried sticking a bit of sellotape across the iSpot, or possibly all the way round (minus the various connector/speaker/mic holes etc.)? Does it make a difference?
Based on the initial murmurs regarding signal problems, I picked up a bumper when I bought the phone, so I can't really comment on the problems. But I can replicate the attenuation fault with the bumper off.
Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.
I don't think his comment was aimed at the Droid X or Evo. Those are only slightly bigger and still easy to wrap your hand around. I think it was more aimed at the Dell Streak and other "small tablets" or whatever people call them. Since it's got a phone too, that's probably the "hummer phones" he was referring to.
Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.
I don't think his comment was aimed at the Droid X or Evo. Those are only slightly bigger and still easy to wrap your hand around. I think it was more aimed at the Dell Streak and other "small tablets" or whatever people call them. Since it's got a phone too, that's probably the "hummer phones" he was referring to.
I seriously doubt that's what he was referring to. Steve addresses the competition, and that's the Droid X, EVO 4G, and the Galaxy phones. You don't think he considers a 4.3" screen to be just as absurdly large as a 5"?
Besides, I don't think anyone expects the Streak to be a huge seller. That one is definitely a novelty phone, but I give Dell credit for putting it out there.
All phones and all RF antennas have problems when large sacks of water surround them. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. It's a straw man that Apple set up to attack.
That Samsung phone video doesn't show anything other than the fact that the bars go down when she covered half the side of the phone with her finger. You and I both know that bars don't mean shit. I've often had max bars and no connectivity to speak of, and zero bars and perfectly fine connectivity.
Videos of the iPhone clearly show a light touch on the iSpot causes data transmission to come to a halt. (One example of many.) This is, again, clearly a different issue.
It's all the same issue. The only difference is that with the iPhone you have exposed metal making for very easy conductance bridging that black gap over the skin.
The Samsung has a magic sweet spot that is also very easy to cover and/or bridge if holding the phone in one hand (left hand).
There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call while still dropping bars. There are plenty of reports of other phones dropping calls or with insanely crap reception.
Is the iPhone 4 perfect? Not by a long shot. My only point is that this issue is massively overhyped. Even taking into account it's Apple we're talking about, it's still all blown way overboard.
I do think that Apple played the best card possible this past week by deflecting the issue off as an industry-wide one, even if their design is the most susceptible. They could have done a better job and perhaps avoided some of the overhype by warning about possible issues framed as a "trade-off" of the new design at WWDC. But that's not characteristically Apple and to assume for a second they'd even consider having done that is absurd.
I think this story will not soon be forgotten, even though the issue is not likely to affect the next generation of products. I don't think it's going to soil the iPhone the same way as the Newton's early handwriting recognition - it was vastly improved in later versions, and to this day, I still think the Newton had better handwriting support that anything else since (especially if you compare processing power and other attributes across platforms).
Show me another phone that completely interrupts data access by the touch of a finger on a particular spot on the case, and I'll show you another phone that has a horrible defect.
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
It's all the same issue. The only difference is that with the iPhone you have exposed metal making for very easy conductance bridging that black gap over the skin.
As opposed to the only somewhat harder "conductance bridging" on other phones of completely removing the case to get at any conductive thing attached to the antenna?
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call
There are plenty of reports of people getting rear-ended in a Pinto without the gas tank exploding into flames. That must mean that it doesn't happen, right?
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
the issue is not likely to affect the next generation of products
Oh, Apple's going to resolve that industry-wide problem, then?
You don't think that in the same location another phone can be attenuated and drop a connection? Umm, ok.
It's an issue, but not the same as the Pinto. It's an issue comparable to driving a Porsche or a Ferrari. Some people just won't be able to handle them and they're not appropriate for all roads.
Now, please don't bring up the other bogus car analogies like the Audi acceleration and Toyota acceleration and braking issues.
Isn't the issue with other phones a capacitive one? I might be getting the terminology wrong though.
I'm not sure why you think Apple is going to solve an industry-wide issue. They'l solve it for their product. I simply think they're going to come out ahead of the industry in the next rev, like they do in pretty much every other facet of their entire product line. Seriously, the iPhone sucks. It does. But there's still nothing else even half as good out there - and I'm being so generous here to the other platforms.
There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call while still dropping bars. There are plenty of reports of other phones dropping calls or with insanely crap reception.
I'd actually prefer if the phone did drop the call, instead of hanging on letting me hear but not be able to talk due to the spot being touched. That's the ultimate reason my iPhone 4 is going back. Its kinda critical for an emergency operator to be able to hear you.
(in before the Bruno/Bitt nitpick thread death spiral with 15 more back and forth posts :-)
Tom, I agree, your issue definitely sucks and it's probably even more infuriating. I've been dealing with my own set of infuriating issues these past few days, including some phone-based ones, however VOIP based.
I'm glad Apple was called out on this issue, since it's an inherent problem with the design they've chosen, even if it is manageable for many (even most?) people. However, IMO, it's overblown and what's really irked me more is the holier than-thou attitudes of other manufacturers. I will say it's uncharacteristic of Apple to mention other manufacturers by name - at least to this degree.
Anyway, if the price were right I'd pick up an iPhone 4 in a heart beat. The fabric on the glove I normally wear on my left hand probably woudn't work to solve the antenna issue, but I'm sure the rhinestones would take care of that.
Overhyped? You don't think that having your data transfer rate drop by a factor of 10 when you pick up the phone is worth a bit of discussion? And that Jobs saying "Oh, they all do that..." is an adequate response?
If anything, i don't think that it has been "hyped" enough!
When you take into account what the likely real number of affected people is, then yes, it's overhyped. They've sold 3 million units already. If this was a case that affected even 10% of customers, reports would be even more widespread than they are now. It is being hyped as if it affects all customers all the time.
The issue is a significant one - for those people affected by it. The same issue, though not by touching the antenna directly, affects other phones from other manufacturers.
I'd still rather have an iPhone 4 than anything from HTC. And I'd rather have anything from HTC more than just about anything else by a wide margin. I wouldn't touch a phone by Motorola. Nokia now makes pretty much only disposable phones, everything out of Korea is crap, etc.
When you take into account what the likely real number of affected people is, then yes, it's overhyped.
Bruno, simple question, do you actually have an iPhone 4 ???
This issue effects every single user from what I can tell, to a varying degree of course. Don't see how it has been over hyped to me. I don't want to return my iPhone 4 as I now have a micro SIM and no other iPhone to swap back into. I suspect I am in the same boat as a large number of users, and what is the point of ringing AppleCare when I know there is no solution for the problem I am willing to accept as an actual solution.
I also don't see why there is justification in the argument because one phone has a design flaw that all the others are ok to have them too. I quite frankly don't care what problems Samsung users have and can't really see what that has to do with the design of the iPhone 4.
Other phones having issues is no justification for the issues with the iPhone. However, this was all being reported as, "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" - which is complete BS.
iPhone 4 comes out in Canada on July 30th. I'd like one. I will not sign a contract with the Canadian piss-poor carriers for any phone however. If I can get one at a reasonable price contract-free then I'm going to jump on it.
There just isn't enough volume of noise to indicate this problem affects even close to half the iPhone 4 population out there. NOte that I didn't say that not all iPhones are affected. This is a design issue, so all the phones are susceptible, but not all customers are going to see it due to where and how they'll use the phones. I have some insight on how product complaints go, having been on both sides of the business a few times. Any number of negative comments will always seem overpower the positive.
You should take your phone back and take back the micro SIM. Since that SIM is for the iPhone, your carrier will have to take it back, especially after Apple has already announced an official return policy and the fact that the phone does have the potential for problems.
"the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" - which is complete BS.
Am I missing something here? Probably I am. Bruno, you know more about cell phones than I will ever want to. I don't even own a cell phone, and when I did it was a $21.95 phone on a $6.67 per month pre-paid plan, and in the year that I had it I probably used it a total of 20 minutes.
That said, has there ever been another phone that lost 90% of its data transfer rate when held in the fashion that 90% of the users would normally hold it? As outlined above, I am probably speaking from a position of invincible ignorance here, and if so you can slap me down and I'll have no hard feelings. But you'd better do it with facts, not mere opinions. I base my assertion that "...the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" on the fact that when held normally the data transfer rate doesn't just get a little bit worse (like apparently most phones do) but drops precipitously to a small fraction of its nominal value.
Steve Jobs said something to the effect that the problem affects only one half of one percent of the users. This is a classic example of how to lie with statistics. The truth is that only one out of every two hundred users complained about the problem. No doubt the phone works quite well if all you do with it is make phone calls, and probably (I'm just guessing here, no hard data) that is all most users do with it although why such a user would spend $300 to buy the phone and another $100 a month to keep it connected, instead of $21.95 and $6.67/month is beyond me. However, if it is used to its full capabilities (i.e., as a SMARTPHONE) then 100% of the users are affected.
If the phone is held in a normal fashion and used as a Smartphone, there is a serious problem that has not been overblown.
Some reports (such as the one I linked to) clearly show that the data transfer rate falls from 1500kbps to zero (or damned close to zero) immediately upon a light touch directly on the problem spot, without anything else obscuring the antenna. Bruno, if you can give any evidence at all that any other phone ever has had a problem like this (not mere attenuation, but near instantaneous apparent complete loss of signal), I'd love to see it.
Bitt, I didn't say that any other phones had as severe a problem. You've also seen people testing the problem spot with no loss of data signal though, right?
I'm pretty sure I had also already mentioned that I believe Apple knew about this issue prior to the iPhone's release and it may even be one of the reasons behind the bumper design.
I do find it strange however that even with the small percentage of reports (given the number of sales) that Apple's testing prior to release would not have prompted them to take swifter and more overt action, such as having bundled bumpers right from the start.
Apple treat testing very seriously and let me tell you how many friggen man hours were spent at ATI because 1 system restart in 3000 would hang a Power Mac or some up with screen corruption. Some of their tests had an even lower margin for error, like 1 in 5000. We're talking show-stoppers here.
Yes, I've seen people demonstrate their inability to reproduce the problem. I bet occurrence of the problem has a lot to do with the signal in the testing environment, from frequency to strength, relative strengths of various frequencies, and probably other factors. That was my point with the Pinto, not to make some sort of car analogy. The problem is that the problem occurs, and it's really significant, even if it doesn't occur in every situation.
I would imagine that most of the iPhone4 real-world testing was done in the SF Bay area, or there and a few other select places. I doubt that there was testing in Peoria, for example. I bet that this problem rarely, if ever, occurs in Apple's prime testing locations.
The problem that I have is that Apple clearly screwed the pooch on this, and won't admit it. ("Doctor, it hurts when I touch the spot." "Don't do that!") The next revision will almost certainly have this problem resolved, and they'll still claim that there isn't a problem, even though they will have clearly taken steps to resolve it.
I think having the antenna be integral to the case is a great idea when you're concerned with space savings. But putting the dielectric at a point where virtually everyone is going to touch it is retarded. I'm not going to claim to be an antenna expert (or novice, even), but rotating the assembly 180° so that the dielectric point is on the upper right, where it's very unlikely to be touched during normal usage, would seem to be a no-brainer.
However, this was all being reported as, "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had"
I don't know... most of the reporting I've seen has been "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw." Full stop. Sometimes there has been an additional statement to the effect of "my previous iPhone didn't have this problem."
Apple marketing, however, seems to be trying to spin the press as you suggest. Everyone else, however, knows that the question of whether other phones have the same problem isn't relevant -- unless you're Apple, trying to deflect criticism. Sorry Apple, but just because everyone else makes shoddy pieces of junk, doesn't mean you get to make shoddy pieces of junk, too. Especially not when you've built your brand on not making shoddy pieces of junk.
But heck... I don't care. I neither have, nor want, a cell phone.
They have admitted that there's a problem though. Jobs even referred to the left side as a "weak spot."
Jobs using the word "problem" specifically.
Originally Posted By: "Steve Jobs"
But not everyone is seeing this — a small number encounter it. For those customers we’ll get them a case, and if that doesn’t work, we’ll get them a full refund. And we’ll continue to work on antennas that don’t have this problem.
He even admits that they made a mistake...
Originally Posted By: Steve Jobs
We're human. We make mistakes, and we figure it out fast.
John Gruber's take which is surprisingly similar to mine:
Originally Posted By: "John Gruber"
What I took away from the press conference is that Apple believes the iPhone 4 antenna is better than the previous iPhone antennas, but it has a more sensitive “weak spot”. And, that more sensitive weak spot is inherent to the external antenna design. In short, that it’s a trade-off — better signal quality overall, better aesthetics, more structural rigidity, even better battery life because there’s room for a bigger battery without an internal antenna. The trade-off is that all of those benefits come at the expense of a more sensitive “weak spot”.
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Bruno, if you can give any evidence at all that any other phone ever has had a problem like this (not mere attenuation, but near instantaneous apparent complete loss of signal), I'd love to see it.
but it has a more sensitive “weak spot”. And, that more sensitive weak spot is inherent to the external antenna design.
Heh. Now I'm picturing the iPhone as the fourth-level boss, and I have to shoot at the glowing orange spot on the lower left corner when it turns and exposes it to me...
many in Google's support forums are noting that the phone will drop a weaker 3G signal merely when held by the bottom
Maybe it's my interpretation, but a phone showing max bars and transferring data at 1500kbps is unlikely to be having a "weaker 3G signal". And it's still demonstrating a meatbag signal attenuation problem, as wrapping your hand around the bottom of the phone (admittedly a normal way to hold it) is the problem, not the presence of a single digit.
Again, there is a problem with every cell phone ever made that human bodies are good RF signal attenuators. This affects all models of the iPhone, the Nexus One, the Pre, etc. Again, every cell phone. It affects some phones more than others, frequently due to asinine antenna placement. I in no way disagree with this assessment. The iPhone may well actually be better in this regard. I can see how an external antenna might be a good solution to this problem.
But the issue with touching the spot is unlike any other cell phone problem description I've ever heard. You have watched videos of people demonstrating the problem, right? The one I linked is a good example. It is basically impossible to use the phone at all if touching it any less than in these demonstrations. I find it very hard to believe that the signal reception (or transmission, maybe) is concentrated in a single spot on the antenna. Assuming it's not, there's something else going on besides normal attenuation. And, if it really is concentrated there, then placing that single spot on one of the most easily obscured surfaces of the phone is an obvious design flaw of its own. There are any number of better spots. Between the two volume buttons, maybe. On the top or bottom of the phone. At the diametrically opposed corner, etc.
Then again, holding the phone with fingertips on either side of the phone, even when avoiding the iSpot, would also bridge the two antennas. So that can't be it.
There's a black spot on both sides of the phone. And the metal bands run one along the bottom and one over the top of the phone. It's split in two along those black parts, AFAIK.
This is the image (well, as far as I remember from the original announcment) of the antenna system:
Although it's not entirely clear on the opposing side, it looks like the other notch is purely cosmetic and that there is no break in the antenna on that side.
Not that I know of. It's part f what makes the product look so good however. And part of what allowed the model to shrink in size yet fit a larger battery. I think we agree that it's a problem. But it's not a problem that has nor will affect everyone. It's also a problem that for some affected people is manageable.
I think a huge problem is the issue with the proximity sensor causing calls to hang up and other oddities. This seems to affect more people than the antenna problems, it just hasn't gotten the same amount of press because it was harder to pin-point and demonstrate. Seems like Apple will address this one in software. You can hold the phone without touching the black spot, you can put the phone into a case. But you can't really use the phone traditionally without putting it up against your head.
On a much more positive and constructive note I've been in the studio having some fun with the iPhone4's camera.
It has proven to be very capable, here is one of about 100 shots we got...
This image has been edited in Lightroom then Photoshop, cropped and reduced in overall size, but even the raw jpg is pretty good, see this 100% crop...
A great bit of kit to have in your pocket wherever you go!!!
I think a huge problem is the issue with the proximity sensor causing calls to hang up and other oddities. This seems to affect more people than the antenna problems, it just hasn't gotten the same amount of press because it was harder to pin-point and demonstrate. Seems like Apple will address this one in software. You can hold the phone without touching the black spot, you can put the phone into a case. But you can't really use the phone traditionally without putting it up against your head.
It is very easy to demonstrate and reproduce the proximity sensor issue. All it takes is an iPhone 4+3G/3GS and a piece of paper, dead easy.
The reason the proximity sensor has got less coverage it people (fairly sensibly in mine and sounds like your opinion) expect it to be fixable in software.
The antenna issue however appears* to be unfixable. And adding a Bumper is not a fix. With the Bumper on:
- it doesn't fit in my TomTom dock - it doesn't fit in Apple's dock - I can't plug my third party headphones in - I can't connect my card charger/FM transmitter - I can't plug my third party charge cable in
If I have to take it out of the Bumper every time I want to do one of these things it is going to dramatically increase the likelihood of me dropping and damaging the phone.
I've tried not touching the spot when holding it, but is very hard for me to achieve. Even if I start a call not touching the spot it is very easy for a finger to wander back on to it.
And it really does take the tiniest touch to trigger it. There is no where on mu 3G that a simple touch can kill the signal.
* I had hoped there would be some way they could tweak the software to at least lesson the problem, but this looks very unlikely now
We're human. We make mistakes, and we figure it out fast.
The only thing I'd point out here is that while they did address this somewhat quickly (for a large company), I do not believe they handled it well up until then.
Quite frankly, Apple needs to, as a rule, stop Steve from replying to emails from the public (and most press). I actually do think it's cool that he does that, but nothing good has ever come out of it for them as a company (that I know of). Anyone disagree?
Too add insult to injury, it would appear that every time I fit or remove the Apple Bumper it makes small scratches in stainless steel surround on my Apple phone
It's basically a follow-on to what was said at the press event. They show images and video of the iPhone 4 along with competitor's products being held and causing signal loss.
If the rest of the PC industry didn't think they were in trouble before (especially with regards to new products/segments), they'd better think again. I'm pretty sure the iPad is going to steam-roll everything else in unit sales, let alone profits. Why wasn't I this bullish on this fruit company back in 1996/97... Argh.
I'm not sure if I've seen you address it, yet. Bruno, do you acknowledge that there is a major reception issue caused by touching that one troublesome spot on the phone? And do you acknowledge that that particular issue is unique to that particular phone?
Clever that they made an app for this to validate eligibility. Also allows picking from quite a few different cases outside the Apple Bumper.
Mine is in the FedEx system somewhere, on it's way back to Apple. The local store didn't want to accept it back since the iPhone was an online order. Ended up having to go to AT&T to get a new SIM for my older 3GS to reactivate it. Once I activated the 4, the old SIM was completely deactivated.
I do miss the niceties of the iPhone 4 already. but I also enjoy being able to use the phone part again without a case or other thing on the phone to fix a design flaw. Would be nice if Apple could fix this properly by September, but if not, I'll be waiting for next years model.
I was rather hoping you'd move to a good Android phone. It would have been interesting to hear your feedback after you'd gotten used to the differences. You could always have moved back to your 3GS anyway.
Bruno, do you acknowledge that there is a major reception issue caused by touching that one troublesome spot on the phone? And do you acknowledge that that particular issue is unique to that particular phone?
There is the potential for a major reception issue when you bridge the gap between the two antennas. It doesn't affect everyone obviously. The "uniqueness" comes from the iPhone's design, not the issue of antenna attenuation itself. No other phone has this type of external antenna with that type of gap between two antennas able to be touched as easily. Plenty of other phones will degrade or drop signal given attenuation by touching different elements of the phone specific to their own designs - check the videos on Youtube and Apple's site. For some people this issue will be more prevalent on the iPhone than it would be on their previous phone(s), given its physical design. For others they will be able to get signal where previously they had no signal at all, even if it's not terribly strong. Yet others won't see this problem at all.
So, I finally got my "store pickup" email on Wednesday, I picked the phone up thursday evening.
Obviously I was a little worried by the possibility of the signal issue, so the first time I made a call I had my finger and hand all over the "iSpot" in various positions, I was unable to reproduce the problem. My signal reception at work varies from poor to ok so I was kind of expecting to have an issue but nothing happened, no dropped call, no signal breakup - I couldn't even make the bars drop in any significant way.
I installed the update that evening and played with the phone on my journey from london to cambridge and back again, again watching the signal meter while trying all sorts of iSpot touching and death grip and I couldn't get it to do anything significant. I really was expecting the lightest of touch to trigger it.
So, I fall into the group of (currently) happy campers, for the time being holding and operating the phone in a normal manner works fine for me, for that matter the death grip works fine too.
I made a call I had my finger and hand all over the "iSpot" in various positions, I was unable to reproduce the problem. My signal reception at work varies from poor to ok so I was kind of expecting
You must have a defective iPhone4. YOu should return it, since this issue is supposed to affect everyone.
I never was able to cause issues touching the iSpot during my travels in Portland and Seattle. Once I returned to Austin though, the problems came right back. So it's either something different in the networks in the two areas that minimizes it as an issue in the northwest, or possibly environmental conditions like humidity and the dryness of my skin.
Listening to MacBreak Weekly, they too were seeing mixed results. Leo Laporte stopped using it completely after dropping 5 calls in a day, though he does also live near San Francisco where it's (at least according to Jobs), a nearly 3 year process to install new towers. Andy in Chicago said he can drop bars by touching the spot, but it wasn't a big deal for him considering the other improvements on the phone. And Gruber seemed unaffected by it in Pennsylvania.
If my phone was defective, Apple wasn't interested in replacing it after 2 separate visits to the Genius Bar, even when demonstrating the issue to them.
Glad to hear it is working for you sn00p, and most likely it will work fine for Tony too.
I can't remember whether I read it elsewhere or on here, but there was apparently friction between AT&T and Apple on the first iPhone release because apple had used an infineon chipset which was more suited to europe where cell towers are much closer together. I'm not sure how accurate this is, then again both Andy and Cris are experiencing the antenna issues so I guess that it's not really a relevant fact.
I've been without an iPhone since the 18th of June and it's amazing how I've become reliant on it, my calendar is fairly important because I spend half my life at the hospital and all my appointment details live in there. The biggest loss for me was email, checking my email on the computer seemed like a step back into the dark ages, it's just so much more convenient doing it on the phone.
It's a shame that so many people are having such massive issues, because the phone is brilliant and at least for the meanwhile, it's working at least as well as my 3G did.
I don't think Apple have handled this quite as well as they could have, I think if they'd come out sooner and said "We're not sure why so many of you think you're having problems, we're looking into it" they may have avoided or at least minimised what happened in the 20 odd days following the release. Sure, they were over-exageratting the signal strength bars, but Jobs admitted that they knew that the antenna had an inherent weakness *from the start* and that "all smartphones exhibited it", they really could have said this the moment that things started to escalate.
One thing I know from the stuff we do at work is that RF is all magic, voodoo and pixie dust. As Jobs said, "we knew about it, but we didn't expect it to be such a big issue" (or words to that effect) - it's clear that they've underestimated just what the end users would see.
It'll be interesting to see what the next couple of months has instore.
Not everyone in the US lives in San Francisco or New York, but a lot of the tech writers do. Those are the two areas where AT&T does worst due to massive subscriber growth in areas with poor infrastructure to support the users. More tech writers in bad areas = more articles about how AT&T is horrible.
The only problems I have seen with my various iPhones and AT&T happen when I'm in a crowded area like a convention. Outside that, the service has worked just fine. South by Southwest was even fine this year with all the additional infrastructure AT&T rolled in downtown.
I never was able to cause issues touching the iSpot during my travels in Portland and Seattle. Once I returned to Austin though, the problems came right back. So it's either something different in the networks in the two areas that minimizes it as an issue in the northwest, or possibly environmental conditions like humidity and the dryness of my skin.
Listening to MacBreak Weekly, they too were seeing mixed results. Leo Laporte stopped using it completely after dropping 5 calls in a day, though he does also live near San Francisco where it's (at least according to Jobs), a nearly 3 year process to install new towers. Andy in Chicago said he can drop bars by touching the spot, but it wasn't a big deal for him considering the other improvements on the phone. And Gruber seemed unaffected by it in Pennsylvania.
Speaking from a position of zero knowledge about the effect (not my department), maybe it's most severe in low band, ie 850MHz. If so that might explain why you don't seem to see it at all in other places that may be on 1900MHz (or in Europe where you may well be on 2100...)
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.
Not for the first time (but the first time I've been able to discover where I remembered the quote from), I'm reminded of this:
Quote:
Red heard an electronic whistle as the liquid crystal shutter activated and then a chitter as the microprocessor loaded the bits into a mass memory. It cost Electropix an extra few dollars to bridge a piezoelectric disk across the data bus so the customer would know that the picture was taken and stored, but it was those little touches that kept Electropix at the top of the heap.
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.
The scene: Vixy & Tony are performing a concert entirely acoustically to a small auditorium. No amplification. She's having to sing a lot harder than usual in order to be able to project to the audience. It's going well.
An acquaintance with a large DSLR camera begins taking pictures, and it's doing the CLICK WHIRRR BEEP BEEP BOOP noises with each exposure. Possibly the most annoying thing in the world in that situation.
I ask him later why he didn't turn off those noises on his camera and he says "you can't turn them off on this camera". I called bullshit, and he later discovered the deeply buried menu settings to disable the sounds. Gr.
Of course, what I'm seeing there is lighting gear and studio technique; at that point with that kind of lighting, any CCD will do. But it's a great demo of how any camera can be made to produce good results in the hands of a professional. Much like any half-decent instrument can produce beautiful music in the hands a of a talented musician.
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.
The scene: Vixy & Tony are performing a concert entirely acoustically to a small auditorium. No amplification. She's having to sing a lot harder than usual in order to be able to project to the audience. It's going well.
An acquaintance with a large DSLR camera begins taking pictures, and it's doing the CLICK WHIRRR BEEP BEEP BOOP noises with each exposure. Possibly the most annoying thing in the world in that situation.
I ask him later why he didn't turn off those noises on his camera and he says "you can't turn them off on this camera". I called bullshit, and he later discovered the deeply buried menu settings to disable the sounds. Gr.
Heh. I started doing the promo photography for my wife's community theatre. It took me several shoots before I remembered I could (and should) turn off the auto-focus beeps. At least I'm only shooting during dress rehearsals. Without a blimp/silencer, though, there's not much you can do about shutter and mirror noise on an SLR. So far, the actors have been very tolerant.
Of course, what I'm seeing there is lighting gear and studio technique; at that point with that kind of lighting, any CCD will do.
You've obviously never tried to get a good a picture out of almost any HTC phone then! My HTC Prophet, TyTn II and HD all had absolutely pitiful cameras on them. It's only my HD2 that seems to be anything other than total crap. The camera on the iPhone 4 is considerably better than any phone I've owned before.
there's not much you can do about shutter and mirror noise on an SLR. So far, the actors have been very tolerant.
I wouldn't have minded that. I'm aware that there's gonna be a true mechanical click on an SLR. It was the artificial and unnecessary electronic sounds that were supposed to simulate an old school electric film advance mechanism, as well as the BEEBEEP noises it made after each exposure. That's just terrible.
It's like the push to add extra fake engine noise to electric cars. Come on, people, in the digital age we can move past the awful limitations of the old technology. Let's EMBRACE the peace and quiet rather than deliberately disturbing it.
It's like the push to add extra fake engine noise to electric cars. Come on, people, in the digital age we can move past the awful limitations of the old technology.
Yeah, I want my car to sound like a rocket ship. Whoosh, zoom, etc.
Double Ugh. There are enough idiots driving cars with amps that can be herd from 3 blocks away. Encouragement in the form of a requirement to be noisy is not needed.
Looks like Best Buy is doing their own free fix for the iSpot, as long as you either bought the phone from them, or have a valid Reward Zone membership.
The infographic itself sucks (big time) but at least you can see the prices (all converted to Euros, including applicable taxes at point of sale.) Don't compare the sizes of the bars in the graph, because the genius that put together the image didn't start the bottom at zero.
Hong Kong is still the place to buy the iPhone for the least amount of money, for you globetrotters out there.
Ouch. After having to fight a legal battle to be able to work at Apple as a senior vice president in 2008, Mark Papermaster is once again looking for a job, possibly due to the iSpot on the iPhone 4.
To be fair, the person at Apple who thought of using the metal band as the aerial should be reduced to bussing tables in the apple staff canteen. Assuming they haven't already been fired.
I assume nobody has publicly owned up to coming up with the idea?
Well, I just got my iPhone 4 this last weekend, and I think it's the bee's knees.
I can make the bars change by touching the iSpot too. But interestingly, I seem to be able to make the bars go up when touching the iSpot just as often as I can make them go down. Radio frequencies are just weird that way.
Does that make an external touchable antenna a good design or a bad one? Meh, I don't care, the thing works for me. It's got some great features and it performs well.
I was just at an Apple store today to get a new power supply for my MacBook - the "old" one died last night and I've been unable to use my computer since yesterday. Luckily I managed to squeeze into a Genius bar appointment.
Anyway, I spent a few minutes with the new iPhone. The new model makes all the old ones feel positively crap in your hand. It looks and feels amazing, completely unlike every other phone I've ever held. The difference in build quality between the iPhone 4 and every other mass-market mobile on the is astounding. There's simply nothing that even comes close that I've ever seen (or heard of) - nothing out of Japan or Korea and nothing out of Finland. This is the little pig's brick shithouse whereas most other phones are the straw house or for a few select models, the wood/stick house.
It's still not worth $800 to me though. I'd buy one for $350 unlocked in a heartbeat.
There was a long lineup outside the store (in a mall) but I'm not sure exactly what they were waiting for. Or when they'd be serviced. The iPhone 4 is sold out at every Apple store locally as far as I know, and none of the carrier-branded stores or other cell stores have them either. I don't think the antenna is a factor that seems to be affecting sales in an appreciable manner.
I've never found that bars are anything but a pretty little picture on the phone. They certainly don't seem to have any relevance to any sort of signal quality.
Bruno, while I agree that the build quality on the iPhone 4 is unrivaled, I've been a little surprised that I'm in the minority when it comes to how it feels in my hand. To be honest, I find the phone rather blocky, with edges too sharp to be comfortable in my hand for long periods of time.
This is clearly a subjective opinion, but that's definitely how it feels to me from the times I've held it.
My phone is all plastic (and feels like it), and edges aren't even at a couple spots, but the rounded edges (like previous iPhones) make it more comfortable to me. Again, to each his own...
There was a long lineup outside the store (in a mall) but I'm not sure exactly what they were waiting for. Or when they'd be serviced. The iPhone 4 is sold out at every Apple store locally as far as I know, and none of the carrier-branded stores or other cell stores have them either. I don't think the antenna is a factor that seems to be affecting sales in an appreciable manner.
I believe Apple bas been putting people on waiting lists for both the iPhone 4 and iPad this year. When your day comes up, you get notified somehow to come in. Odds are the line was for iPhone 4 people, waiting on the store to slowly go through the carrier signup/contract extension process for people ahead of them.
Knowing that there was a going to be a queue for the iPhone 4 anyway, I bought mine online by - get this - installing a special "Apple Store" applet on my iPhone 3G and buying it that way. This actually ended up being the best possible buying experience: The phone came about a week earlier than they said it would. Because I'd bought the new phone by running an app on the old phone, it made the upgrade process 100 percent painless; the old phone's data was automatically part of the purchase, the new phone literally got activated on my existing phone number the moment that I plugged it into iTunes, and the old phone got deactivated.
I've since jailbroken/unlocked the old phone just to mess with it. (I like to keep my daily driver phones "legal" and under warranty, but getting the new phone allowed me freedom to do whatever I wanted with the old phone.) I verified that a T-Mobile SIM works in the thing. Anyone want a 3G?
I think the blockiness and solid feel of the iPhone 4 are what appeal to me most about its design. They edges don't feel sharp to me, but maybe that's because I've also used the MacBook Pro and older iPods that have razor edges. The metallic band isn't as wide as the phone is thick, so there's some rounded-ness because of that. The edge of the glass is also smooth rather than chiseled like a knife as found on the Unibody MacBooks and a number of other Apple products.
Those people in line were going to be there a long time. The queue didn't seem to get any shorter during my hour at the shopping center. The Apple store was what I'd call quite "full" as well, certainly more so than any other store in the entire shopping center - I walked around the whole thing while killing a bit of time until my appointment.
Unfortunately they didn't have any of the new 27" displays available to play with. All the stores in Ontario are pretty small, we certainly don't have anything close to the flagship stores. They're not even as big as the one in the Walden Galleria in the Buffalo area. As an example of space shortage, there was only a single Mac Pro on display and only perhaps two 24" cinema displays from what I saw, one of which was running on the only Mac mini in the store. I suppose that with MacBooks and iMacs making up the lion's share of Mac sales, there are very few displays sold, especially in-store. Even the online store doesn't have a graphic front and center for the Displays category anymore.
Impressive demo of Rage running at 60fps on an iPhone 4, with graphics quality beyond what the Playstation 2 and XBox 1 could do, nearing XBox 360/PS3 level graphics/effects. Amazing what power is contained in such a little pocket device, and what can be done with it in the hands of a very skilled programmer.
The interesting part of the Rage demo is that Carmack took the time to get it working even on the 2007 iPhone without looking that different then what was on the iPhone 4. And both were pulling in megatexture assets.
Comparing the two side by side, the Rage demo was far more impressive then the Unreal Engine 3 one.
Unreal Engine 3
Rage (unfortunately not a lot of good stills out there)
The rage tech should be shipping in an iPhone game by the end of the year, with a second iPhone game planned alongside the 2011 PC/Console game release.
The UE3 stuff is like 7 months old. I'm sure it looks better than that now.
I guess the main difference would be that Epic's demo actually did something. (Edit: Not that it'd be that hard to make Carmack's demo do something as well)
Carmack's demo was neat but I came away from it with the same feeling I have for most of id's games. They're neat but mostly just showcases for Carmack's tech. The more impressive stuff is usually what licensees do with it.
While I agree that the phone is capable of some incredible performance, personally I simply cannot get past the lack of hard buttons. I can't play most games with just the screen, and it looks to me like playing an FPS would be torture for me (if I could even stand looking at it).
Don't get me wrong, this isn't an iPhone thing for me, it's a thing with all slate phones. I have an SNES emulator on my Nexus one that is more than capable of playing any game from my SNES days, but I can't stand controlling them. Granted, those games weren't designed for this input method, but the ones that are don't feel good to me either.
And don't get me started on accelerometer-based games. Not for me, thanks...
Let me be clear when I say this: that is amazing. Absolutely. I'm so excited that a mobile platform can do that now.
BUT (you knew that was coming): to me, that still looks like a PITA when it comes to controlling it. I suppose I might get used to it after playing with it for a long time, but should I? There are faster control methods out there, it's actually kind of sad that I have to cover up those beautiful graphics with my thumbs!
The only other thing I have to say is that I love the first video because it simultaneously shows what the iPhone does better than anyone - the gaming - and worse than everyone - the horrible, disruptive notifications. I'm amazed that Steve is happy with how those work... I know we talked about the notifications already, how it's difficult to change them quickly, but I'm amazed they aren't even talking about it.
Definite improvement over what they last showed, and pretty cool they shipped their tech demo for people to play around with. Now to see what they do with the tech, not only for their own game, but how they license it.
Let me be clear when I say this: that is amazing. Absolutely. I'm so excited that a mobile platform can do that now.
Honestly, as pretty as it is, I actually wasn't impressed. Because it's not doing anything "hard" by modern standards: It's all pre-rendered textures, all the lighting is baked into the textures already. There's no dynamic lighting that I could see. Having a decent set of tools to create baked environments like that is impressive and important, but I don't find the tech of "playing back" all that pre-baked stuff surprisingly impressive. At that point it's just textured polygons.
Don't get me wrong, though, I certainly couldn't code anything like that, that's all rocket science to me. And the artistry of the level design is top notch, I'm not capable of that either. All I'm saying is that the art is more impressive than the tech in that demo.
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BUT (you knew that was coming): to me, that still looks like a PITA when it comes to controlling it. I suppose I might get used to it after playing with it for a long time, but should I? There are faster control methods out there, it's actually kind of sad that I have to cover up those beautiful graphics with my thumbs!
Interestingly, the two-thumbs control scheme is not the only way to control things. I like the adventure-game style click-to-walk-there mechanic and I don't think it gets in the way nearly as much as the two-thumbs method. I can envision entire games built around that mechanic. You can see it in the latter half of the second video, and if the dude didn't hover his finger over the screen the whole time, it would actually be a lot less obtrusive.
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and worse than everyone - the horrible, disruptive notifications. I'm amazed that Steve is happy with how those work... I know we talked about the notifications already, how it's difficult to change them quickly, but I'm amazed they aren't even talking about it.
I don't know what those were about. My phone doesn't do that to me. Maybe it's because I have a lot of that crap turned off...
I don't know what those were about. My phone doesn't do that to me. Maybe it's because I have a lot of that crap turned off...
They were just notification from an app. Your phone would of course have done that too if you'd have received a text message or an app notification while playing the demo.
Ah. Yeah. I just turn off all the push notifications.
I guess what Dignan was saying was that the OS architecture should have a more graceful way of handling that sort of thing even when you enable the feature.
Indeed, WebOS notifications are pretty slick. Android, eh, they are ok. (Just realized I never did post my final thoughts on my Android experience, I'll look to do that tonight).