This issue is one that I find very interesting and always imprefectly solvable. Personally, I don't get all riled up about gay marriage and would probably opt on balance to allow it if it was up to me alone. At the same time there are aspects of gay rights (if you can lump all of this under that umbrella) that I guess I am not completely at peace with. There was a piece on NPR a week or so ago that featured a guy who decided to that he wanted to be a dad and paid ~$100K to hire surrogates and now has twins. There was something I found almost creepy about the story -- a sense of self indulgence that made me say "Hey, who says you have a right to trade $$$ for kids?" -- 'course then I have to remind myself that lots and lots of heterosexual couples go through similar exercises paying for fertility services, surrogates, etc....

....I also have to remind myself that I know a couple of lesbian couples who have the nicest and most well-adjusted kids that I know of, so it seems like their efforts with respect to child-rearing didn't go to waste. I don't happen to know any gay male parents. Happenstance, that, so no anecdotall informaltion there.

I am interested to read mwest's comments:

1. Religion has a pretty good claim as definer of marriage. Marriage is documented as a religious institution far before organized government comes on the scene. Then you also have to deal with the fact that overwhelmingly people still turn to religion to conduct marriage services.

I'm no expert, but it would seem that whether we are talking about Puritan New England or Spain or Italy or England (or wherever) religion injected itself into formative governments and helped define many laws including those around marriage.

Notice I've said nothing of Christianity... only religion. Most of the dominant world religions forbid homosexuality. If the US was predominantly Muslim the same arguments would be raised against homosexual marriage.

But using various divinely-inspired religious concensuses (what *is* the plural of concensus?) as a yardstick -- as a norm -- doesn't seem very trustworthy to some of us. Sodomites in Saudi are beheaded based on that particular religious yardstick. For some of us, the persistence of various irreconcilable religions is a puzzle and the fact that some of them frown on gay marriage or other things seems immaterial. I *really* don't mean to taunt you, but it is extremely interesting to hear you cite what seems like ecumenical anti-homosexual-marriagism at a time when Christian and Muslim worlds seem to be engaged in a huge cultural and political collision.

2. Civil Unions don't upset most religious people.

Now here's a place where I could be totally wrong because I don't hang out with a lot of people I would consider religious.... but I really have the sense that if you put a plain thumbs up/down referendum in front of the strata of folks I might characterize as "really religious" -- one question that asked "Do you approve of civil unions between gay people?" -- I was thinking that the vote would be 9 to 1 opposed. That was just my impression. Where did that come from? Well, I didn't exactly see many of the nation's religious out there collecting signatures or otherwise fighting for civil unions in places like Vermont. It seemed like they were too busy fighting against them. Maybe this perception is a result of skewed perception of who is "religious".

I have no desire to keep people from getting proper health care. I also recognize the need of the state to protect the rights of individuals taken advantage of in the dissolution of relationships even if I don't agree with the relationships to begin with. Civil Union statutes could easily deal with these issues.

I think I mostly agree with you here. It might be considered gross heresy by some of our gay readers, but in the vein of separation of church and state, I would be pleased if we just gave "marriage", whatever that is, back to churches and dealt with legal issues of partnerships strictly on a civil (union) basis. That's just Jim the atheist talking.

I heard a radio news report some weeks back about a gay (Methodist?) minister who was being tried by a church court and I remember readng about Catholic tribunals having to do with annulments. I always have to think "Hey, if you want to recognize and submit yourself to such things, that's great." but, boy amd I ever glad that our political systems (mostly, in some places) have evolved to where those types of things are separate and optional. If marriage went that way, I think it would be swell. That way, religions can make up any sort of extra rules they want (like no sex on Fridays) without weighing down the legal system.

3. Separate but Equal references fall bitterly short. If I was a black man and I heard a homosexual make the comparison, I would be livid. The two populations have almost nothing in common. Homosexuals have never been counted as 1/8th of a person in the census. Homosexuals have never been forced to pick someone elses food. Homosexuals have never been forced into separate schools by the government and then forced to integrate through busing and picket lines. Homosexuals in short have no claim to that sort of rhetoric and should be ashamed of any claims of similarity between their position and the plight of African Americans prior to the 1960's.

While people have been killed for being queer in this country, they haven't been lynched that I am aware of or sent systematically to gas chambers, so I'll admit your point. But, but, but, even if you are a bit offended at what you perceive to be some folks strained comparisons of oppression, what bearing does that have on what people's right's should be?

I remember taking care of a guy in 1979 who had Guillian-Barre syndrome --- pretty completely paralyzed, cause unknown (though GB was thought to be preciptated by various viral illnesses). He was in his 30s. This was a Catholic hospital. It was not at all obvious that the gent was gay. His parents came to visit. ICU rules, family only. Nice folks, terribly concerned. After a few weeks, they brought with them "a friend...really part of the family" who we slowly figured out was the patient's partner of 10+ years.

In at least a few respects, I'm glad it is not 1979 anymore.

Anyhow, what I don't get is why religious folks get so riled up about this and want to pass constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. OK, BBS Canadians: You have gay marriage. Has Canada suffered as a result and how?