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#149713 - 22/03/2003 05:57 Physics Problem #1
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
If I have a Cylinder, Cone and Hemisphere with an equal volume of water in each, which shape will maintain a vortex for longest?
Assuming that I apply an equal torque to each and that no water is lost over the side, reducing the volume.
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-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#149714 - 22/03/2003 09:45 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31571
Loc: Seattle, WA
Okay, using off-topic to help solve an occasional business problem is OK. But I draw the line at asking for help with your college homework.
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Tony Fabris

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#149715 - 22/03/2003 09:47 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31571
Loc: Seattle, WA
And by the way, I'm guessing the hemisphere, because there will be less turbulence (no pointy corners or straight edges for the molecules to get caught up in). But that's just a guess, I'm no physicist.
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Tony Fabris

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#149716 - 22/03/2003 11:37 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
I'd have to guess a cylinder. Two reasons, the energy would be more contained (as opposed to lost to the excess water in a hemisphere or lost to the friction caused by a cone), and the fact that every tornado simulator toy I've ever seen was cylindrical in shape. But, like Tony, no science here, just a thought.

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#149717 - 22/03/2003 12:24 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: lectric]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Well, shoot. I was gonna say the cone.

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#149718 - 22/03/2003 12:33 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
A hemisphere, I think, would give the best results.

The reason being inertia. The hemisphere would have the largest mass of water moving at the maximum radius and maximum depth. A cylinder of the same volume would be either deeper but narrower, or wider but shallower, hence have less inertia for a given vortex velocity (unless it was very shallow and very wide, but then the surface friction would be huge). Again, a hemisphere has the lowest surface area for a given volume, hence less surface friction. A cone would probably be the worst of the lot.

Mind you, I'm making it up as I go along, so I may be completely wrong

pca
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Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#149719 - 22/03/2003 12:51 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Well, I'd go for the cylinder, because once it's spinning evenly there is no upward or downward forces on the water at the edges (the edge of a vortex in a cone or hemisphere will want to rise up the cone or hemisphere in order to rotate with greater diameter). This means firstly that friction with the sides is contained and does not "pollute" the central column, and secondly that there are no Guinness-bubble-like vertical circulations dissipating even more energy.

That is completely made up as I went along, though. I suspect this is actually a very nontrivial problem, not actually amenable to analytic solution. (Unless performed in very maths-ised physics, e.g. frictionless container in zero gravity.)

Peter

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#149720 - 22/03/2003 20:31 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: pca]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
A cone would probably be the worst of the lot.


I didn't try to reason my answer, I just wanted to get a vote in for each of the options.

Whatever, muzza'd better post the right answer after he gets his paper back.

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#149721 - 22/03/2003 23:28 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: canuckInOR]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Ok, I'll fess up. this is not an exam question. I was pouring a bottle of water into an urn to fill it up and was doing the trick of getting a vortex going to make it empty faster. (a funnel of air goes up the center of the bottle, allowing the water out faster as there is minimal vacuum pressure). As the last of the water empltied, I noticed that it was faster to collapse the vortex by shaking the bottle. This was because the bottle end had a parabolic curve and the water tended to stay swirling without exiting. stopping this action made it empty faster, at that point.
This led me to the question of, which shape would maintain this momentum best.

Here is Paulway's response:


Question: If I had a Cylinder, a Cone and a Hemisphere all of the same volume, filled with water; Which would maintain a vortex longer?
That is, if you applied the same force/torque to the water, which shape keeps the vortex going longest?
(assume that the actual container is larger than the volume of water to allow for rise in the liquid)

OK, by 'vortex' I assume you mean a whirlpool-like rotation of water around the axis of symmetry.

Let's also assume that this water gets its velocity either by some means imparted to it - e.g. a pipe pushing water in tangential to the axis of rotation at the furthest distance out - i.e. at the surface of the water - or by spinning the container until the entire body of water is rotating the same way and then stopping the container.

I'm also assuming that we're not emptying water out of the container, we're just wanting to see how long it keeps its rotational momentum.

Using the formula at http://www.mathleague.com/help/geometry/3space.htm

The main thing slowing the water down is friction with the surface of the container. Therefore my first idea is to minimise the amount of surface area. A sphere has the minimum surface area for a given volume, so therefore I'd rank them in order cone, cylinder and hemisphere being able to sustain the vortex for longest.

Friction is usually A + BX, where X is the lateral component of the relative velocity of the two objects. In other words, there's a constant drag but the friction will increase the faster the two objects are rubbing against each other. The mechanics are a bit more complex than that, though - you also have to take into account how much pressure is forcing the two surfaces into contact with each other. You can reduce friction by making the two slide by each other rather than grind into each other.

As you know from centripetal acceleration, the tighter the circle the more the moving body wants to go out of the turn and the more force you need to apply to keep turning that circle. You can do a ninety-degree turn in ten
metres or so at 30KPH, but if you tried the same corner at 100 you would probably roll the car. So a very long thin cylinder, where the angle of turn is tight and therefore the outward force is high, would suffer more friction than a big flat disc of the same volume and surface area but where the water is turning a wide circle at the outside.

The total surface area of the cylinder that the water is nominally rotating against is 2 Pi R H + 2 Pi R (because we're assuming that the water doesn't touch the top of the cylinder), whereas the area of the hemisphere is going to be 4 Pi R^2. As you can see in the attached graph, as the radius of the hemisphere rises the hemisphere's surface area goes above (and stays above) the equivalent volume cylinders. The Cyl Rad calculations always stay lower than the other two

The single variable in the graph is the radius of the hemisphere. The two cylinders are then made to be the same volume as the hemisphere. I've used two different sizes of cylinder - one that keeps the radius of the cylinder the same size as the hemisphere's radius (Cyl Rad), and the other which makes the cylinder's height match the hemisphere's radius (Cyl Hei). The other dimension of the cylinder is then calculated backward from the volume in each case.

It is possible to produce formulae where the cylinder's height is the same as its diameter - in other words, as wide as it is tall - and calculate the surface area out from there. This is left as an exercise for the reader. It is not known, however, if this minimises the surface area of the cylinder in relation to its volume.

So most of the time we can construct a cylinder that contains the same amount of water as a given hemisphere but a smaller surface area. This to me is a compelling argument that the cylinder is in fact the best shape to keep the vortex going for longest. The cylinder is also going to have more water moving at the fastest speed possible in the cylinder (thus having the most momentum) compared with a hemisphere of the same volume.

Also consider that there will be less turbulence caused by water being forced to move out of a plane - at the base of the hemisphere the water will slide upward by the surface rather than just being turned around the axis. This will make it push the other water upward - i.e. the water is colliding with itself rather than just spinning around. A cylinder does not suffer this problem as much, since at the bottom a turbulent layer will form across the bottom but this will not force water up the sides of the container in the same way as a hemisphere's 'base' will.

None of this takes into account the vertical and lateral motion of the water. Now, as you know when stirring a cup of tea, the fluid is pushed up higher at the side and lower in the middle. Considered from side on, the water moves up the outside, across the top to the middle, down the middle, and back across the bottom to the outside. The vortex of tea leaves you see in the bottom of the cup is caused by the centre being at lower pressure than the outside, and brownian motion and other particulate factors cause the particles to be deposited in the area of lowest pressure.


>The Cylinder may have problems as it has a corner which may create
>turbulence. The Cone may have a better shape for the vortex but once it
>collpses, there is turbulence.

I'm not sure what you mean by turbulence here. I'm assuming you mean 'friction against the surface'.

I think the only way to really sort out all the physics in one easy go is to test it out.

Thanks for the distracting hour or so,

Paul


Without much testing, I don't think there is a right answer. You would need to test with different variables volumes, heights and widths to get an ideal result.
Anyone got some time on a particle calculating super-computer?
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-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#149722 - 23/03/2003 02:26 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
As you can see in the attached graph,

Did I miss something here? I didn't find your graph.

The cylinder is also going to have more water moving at the fastest speed possible in the cylinder (thus having the most momentum) compared with a hemisphere of the same volume.

But at the same time, increased speed causes an increase in friction, thus dissipating that momentum more quickly.

Another factor to consider is that the speed of the water against the the cylinder is the same no matter where you measure it on the walls of the cylinder, and in fact is the same as the maximum speed in the hemisphere, given the example you suggested of equal diameters of the two containers. In the hemisphere, most of the surface area contacts the water at slower speeds, that is, the closer to the bottom of the hemisphere, the slower the speed, reaching a speed of zero at the very bottom.

So, which has the greater effect: momentum, friction, surface area, or velocity? Muzza said each volume of water was started with "...equal torque". I take that to mean that each volume of liquid has had the same amount of kinetic energy imparted to it, and thus the same momentum. That leaves friction, surface area, and velocity as the variables, and chances are the retardation through friction will be a function of the square of the velocity (I don't guarantee this, but I think I am right) whereas the effects of surface area will be a linear function. If this is right, velocity will be the most important factor, and the hemisphere will have the lowest average velocity and thus the lowest friction and the least amount of retardation.

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#149723 - 23/03/2003 02:39 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: tanstaafl.]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Sorry, Graph attached.



This seems a likely answer. Any contrary?


Attachments
148056-Surface Areas Graph.png (81 downloads)

_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#149724 - 23/03/2003 18:45 Re: Physics Problem #1 [Re: muzza]
lectric
pooh-bah

Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
So according to this graph, and assuming that surface friction is the only cause of the slowdown, it would depend on the size of the container?

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